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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Play the Grob (Read 11898 times)
SWJediknight
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #34 - 01/08/09 at 22:28:06
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So Lev, what is your antidote to 1.g4 e5, with the idea 2.Bg2 h5, and meeting 2.h3 with straightforward development and the idea of exploiting the holes with Ne7-g6-h4/f4?  Note that 2.h3 d5 transposes to Markovich's suggestion of 1.g4 d5 2.h3 e5.

Also, I'll offer some antidotes to 1.g4 d5 2.e4?!:

A)  2...Nc6 3.Bg2 (3.exd5? Qxd5 -+, 3.h3 Nf6 4.d3 dxe4 with large advantage for Black- Bucker) 3...dxe4 4.Nc3 e5 5.Nxe4 Nf6 =+,

B)  2...dxe4 3.Nc3 gives another split:

B1) 3...Qd4 4. Bg2 Nc6 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Ne2 Qb6 =+,
B2) 3...e3!? 4.fxe3 (4.dxe3 Qxd1+ 5.Nxd1 Bxg4 -/+) 4...e5 5.h4 Nc6 =+,
B3) 3...e5 4.Nxe4 (4.Bg2 e3) 4...Nf6 5.Qf3 Nxe4 6.Qxe4 Qd4 7.Qxd4 exd4  =+.

I quite like the e-pawn push in line B2 to be honest.  Against gambits like the BDG, Budapest, Englund etc. the e-pawn push is generally a mistake, but here it is justified because of the weakened white kingside.
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #33 - 01/08/09 at 18:02:53
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Gambit wrote on 01/08/09 at 01:38:14:
That's just saying that the line with 1 g4 d5 2 Bg2 Bxg4 3 c4 dxc4 4 Bb7 Nd7 5 Bxa8 Qxa8 is not good.


It's just saying that that's how I like to play.  Maybe it's no good for White, I'm not sure.

Gambit wrote on 01/08/09 at 01:38:14:
The point is that White does not have to play 2 Bg2 or 3 c4, for that matter.


The point of what?  But yes, I fully understand that; I was just suggesting a line of play.  


Gambit wrote on 01/08/09 at 01:38:14:
I think 2 e4! de4 3 Nc3! is a vast improvement over the 2 Bg2 line. The Zilbermints Grob Gambit is far less explored than the older Bg2 line.


You may be right, but I would be happy to take the black side of that.  
Gambit wrote on 01/08/09 at 01:38:14:
Even after 1 g4 d5 White can play 2 h3, as IM Basman does in his Grob games. Any comments on that?


Not particularly.  I am not setting forth a theory of Black's side of the Grob, just telling Schroeder how I like to play the black pieces.  But after 2.h3 I see no reason why Black should shake in his shoes.  He should probably play 1...e5.


  

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Gambit
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #32 - 01/08/09 at 01:38:14
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That's just saying that the line with 1 g4 d5 2 Bg2 Bxg4 3 c4 dxc4 4 Bb7 Nd7 5 Bxa8 Qxa8 is not good. The point is that White does not have to play 2 Bg2 or 3 c4, for that matter.

I think 2 e4! de4 3 Nc3! is a vast improvement over the 2 Bg2 line. The Zilbermints Grob Gambit is far less explored than the older Bg2 line.

Even after 1 g4 d5 White can play 2 h3, as IM Basman does in his Grob games. Any comments on that?

With regard to protecting the vulnerable h4-square, the correct defense is Nf3, stoppping the ...Ne7-Ng6-Nh4 maneuver. And the ...h5 - sortie is answered, depending on position, by either g5, Rg1, or gxh5.

Keep in touch.
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #31 - 01/07/09 at 15:18:50
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Schroeder wrote on 01/06/09 at 19:11:42:
In comparison to other unusual first moves (like 1.a3 or 1.Na3 that at least do not spoil anything) 1.g4?! weakens the White position in an irreversible and unmotivated way. So I think it is not too early to claim a slight Black advantage right after move 1.

Some people already mentioned the Black setup 1.g4 e5 2.Bg2 (2.h3 Ne7!) ... h5! pointing out these weaknesses immediately.
http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_bits_pieces/041001_h_t_,mt_plsh_grb2.html


If you look down, you will see that there's been quite a bit of discussion of the Grob in earlier threads.  I share your view, but my own preferred antidote is 1...d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4 3.c4 dxc4 4.Bxb7 Nd7 5.Bxa8 Qxa8.
  

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Schroeder
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #30 - 01/06/09 at 19:11:42
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In comparison to other unusual first moves (like 1.a3 or 1.Na3 that at least do not spoil anything) 1.g4?! weakens the White position in an irreversible and unmotivated way. So I think it is not too early to claim a slight Black advantage right after move 1.

Some people already mentioned the Black setup 1.g4 e5 2.Bg2 (2.h3 Ne7!) ... h5! pointing out these weaknesses immediately.
http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_bits_pieces/041001_h_t_,mt_plsh_grb2.html
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #29 - 01/06/09 at 16:35:18
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knightmare wrote on 01/06/09 at 16:24:28:
As with other offbeat openings, the main "advantage" of the Grob IMHO is this: nearly nobody plays it. To prove its soundess, it needs tests by the "heavyweights" (2600+). Or on high-level correspondence Chess.
As that is very unlikely to happen, the Grob is playable. As is 1.f3 or 1.Na3. Quite another question is, how good it is.



Well, anything is "playable" if all it means is that a move is legal and does not immediately lose.

The Grob is not good.

I have played it often.  One time, eeven in the World Open and won sectional $$$ with it.  But, it is not sound.

The reason I play it is extolled in Chess Openings Theory and Practice, p.781, (and I quote):

"a defiant, almost contemptuous beginning, ...white appears to be saying:  See in what low esteem I hold you.  I can toy with you.....etc"

One of my favorite openings, and have used it to beat many masters otb (one time each! ~ hehe), but it is truly garbage.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #28 - 01/06/09 at 16:24:28
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As with other offbeat openings, the main "advantage" of the Grob IMHO is this: nearly nobody plays it. To prove its soundess, it needs tests by the "heavyweights" (2600+). Or on high-level correspondence Chess.
As that is very unlikely to happen, the Grob is playable. As is 1.f3 or 1.Na3. Quite another question is, how good it is.
  

ELO 2060. Corr.: 2190. Which casts doubts if I ever knew what I was doing. At least on the Board.
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #27 - 01/05/09 at 07:36:11
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The line which I think is the one to play against the Grob is

1.g4 e5 2.Bg2? h5 and black is better.
  

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #26 - 01/04/09 at 17:34:41
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In the exchange sac line 1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 Bxg4 3. c4 dxc4 4. Bxb7 Nd7

* * * * * * * *
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*

Grob in his book recommended 5. h3 (instead of 5.Bxa8 which he gives a question mark and considers advantageous for Black) giving the following lines:

a) 5.- Rb8  6. Bd5 (also 6. hxg4 Rxb7 7. Qa4 +/-) 6... Be6 (6... Nb6 7. Bxc4 Nxc4 8. Qa4+) 7. Bxe6 fxe6 8. Qa4 +/-)
b) 5... Bh5 6. Bxa8 (or 6. Qa4! Rb8 7. Bc6 e5 8. a3! Ngf6 9. Qxc4 Bd6 10. Nf3 unclear) 6... Qxa8 7. Rh2! (the point of 5.h3)


However, his assessement of a White advantage in a) is questionable.
I see Black having a very comfortable game after 5.h3 Rb8 6.Bd5 (6.hxg4 Rxb7 7.Qa4 e6) e6 7.Bxc4 Qh4.
  
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Andrew Brett
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #25 - 08/17/05 at 06:15:13
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Thanks Top for your insight - entertaining as usual.

On a separate note the best g4 systems in my view are :

1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 g4 !? which Krazenkov has played

and the now very theoretical.

1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 c6 4 e3 Nf6 4 Nf3 Nbd7 5 Qc2 Bd6 6 g4 !?

Incidentally I once face in a grunfield the following:

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 d5 4 g4 !?

(The main idea is 4 ... Bxg4 5 Qb3 !?)

Regards

Andrew
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #24 - 08/16/05 at 19:10:09
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Actually, if you noticed, the move order is different.

GIBBINS-WIEDENHAGEN  GAMBIT : 1 d4 Nf6 2 g4

ZILBERMINTS GROB : 1 g4 d5  2 e4 de4 3 Nc3!
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #23 - 08/16/05 at 16:44:58
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Quote:
Not sure about 1 g4 but one of our local club players specialises in 1 d4 Nf6 2 g4 !?

Anyone for taking this up ?

Andrew


I actually faced this one in a tournament once, and after my opponent resigned was shocked to discover it had a name 'The Gibbins-Wiedenhagen Gambit'. Grin

Hard to believe someone beat Zilber in attaching their name to one of these atrocities.

Topster Grin
  

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Andrew Brett
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #22 - 08/16/05 at 06:46:58
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Not sure about 1 g4 but one of our local club players specialises in 1 d4 Nf6 2 g4 !?

Anyone for taking this up ?

Andrew
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #21 - 08/15/05 at 23:54:14
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Oh no!  Not again!   Roll Eyes

Some unrated 5-minute alleged games?  From years ago?  Against weak players who played weakly?

Did you keep score during these alleged games?  That's impressive.  If not, how do you remember the moves?  If you didn't keep score, you must have a flawless memory or imagination.  Did someone else sit next to you and keep score during these 5-minute alleged games?

How about some real games at serious time controls against real opponents at major tournaments?  Got any of those? 

- Lost Highway
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #20 - 08/15/05 at 23:14:25
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Quote:
I think we should just all take careful note of what Tony Kosten said earlier in this thread.

Playing the Grob against strong opposition is like giving a 10m headstart in a 100m dash.

1.g4 d5 2.e4  Shocked Zilber at his bizzare best.

To put the above in perspective, would you play like this against the Scandanavian 1.e4 d5 2.g4.  Grin

Perhaps we should christen the above line the 'Delayed Grob Zilber Scandanavian Gambit.'

Any takers?

Toppy Grin



Your proposed name is way too long. Grob Attack, Zilbermints Gambit, is better.  The Dutch Wikipedia chess database already lists it  as the Zilbermints Gambit. 
Yes, you can mention that it can transpose from the Scandinavian, 1 e4 d5 2 g4 , but that is about it.

Personally, I kicked ass with the Grob, more than once.
If you want, I will post some games here.

  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #19 - 08/11/05 at 19:37:38
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I think we should just all take careful note of what Tony Kosten said earlier in this thread.

Playing the Grob against strong opposition is like giving a 10m headstart in a 100m dash.

1.g4 d5 2.e4  Shocked Zilber at his bizzare best.

To put the above in perspective, would you play like this against the Scandanavian 1.e4 d5 2.g4.  Grin

Perhaps we should christen the above line the 'Delayed Grob Zilber Scandanavian Gambit.'

Any takers?

Toppy Grin
  

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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #18 - 08/11/05 at 06:17:41
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Quote:
1.g4 e5 2.Bg2 h5!? has always struck me as an interesting way to go against the Grob.


Let me answer my critics. First I played plenty of games without f3... the von Popiel Gambit, 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bg5; the Orangutan, 1 b4!; the Grob, 1 g4!;
and many others. In my pre-BDG days, I used to play the King's Gambit; the Italian Game; the Latvian Gambit;
the Sicilian Defense; the Petroff, just to name a few openings.

Secondly, the move (1 g4 e5) 2 Bg2?! is dubious. I play
2 e3 here, delaying (or not playing) Bg2 in this position.
I have defeated masters with 1 g4! . The opening is much better than its reputation.  It's just that you have to know BOTH tactics and positional play to be good at playing the Grob.
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #17 - 08/11/05 at 03:36:24
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1.g4 e5 2.Bg2 h5!? has always struck me as an interesting way to go against the Grob.
  

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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #16 - 08/10/05 at 22:08:32
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LDZ, have you ever played a game as White WITHOUT f3 ?
  

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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #15 - 08/10/05 at 22:00:52
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Zilbermints - Sam Barsky (2023)
Westfield, New Jersey, G/20 tournament
31 July 2005

ZILBERMINTS GROB

1 g4 d5  2 e4 Nf6  3 f3 de4  4 g5 exf3  5 gxf6 f2+  6 Kxf2 ef6
7 d4 Bd6  8 Nf3 Bg4  9 Qd3  g6  10 Qe4 Be6  11 Nc3 00  12 Bd3 Nd7  13 Qh4  Be7  14 d5 Ne5  15 dxe6  Nxd3  16 cxd3  Qxd3  17 exf7+  Rxf7  18 Qd4  Qc2+  19 Kg3!  h5  20 Bf4 Rd8
21 Qe2 Qb2  22 Nd5 Bd6  23 Bxd6  Rd6  24 Ne7+  Kf8  25 Ng6+ 26 Nf4  f5  27 Qe5+  Qxe5  28 Nxe5  Re7  ++-, 1- 0
some moves later.
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #14 - 06/22/05 at 19:35:20
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Markovich - I played that 3...dc4 line as black against an 1800 player and won.  My opponent played 6.f3 and was in trouble after 6...e5.  In another game against a 2300 player, I lost, but I had a lot of attacking chances that I bungled.  I now think that 3...c6 is better
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #13 - 02/19/05 at 08:16:56
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Maybe an other option to grab the pawn on g4 with a reasonable black position is:

1. g4 d5  2.Bg2 Bxg4  3.c4 c6  4.cxd5 Nf6 5.Qb3 Qd7
eg.
6. Nc3 cxd5 7.Nxc5 Be6
or
6.dxc6 Nxc6

both with a active black position
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #12 - 02/05/05 at 02:05:37
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i tried giving the grob a shot a long time ago. it was fun when  people played expected setups, but i got tired of it pretty quickly when i realised that my opponents didn't really even have to acknowledge my existance.
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #11 - 01/30/05 at 22:07:46
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To a speaker of English, "Zilbermintz" is a wonderfully euphonic name.

Leaving that aside, it appears to me that after 1. g4 d5  2. Bg2 Bxg4!  3. c4 dxc4!  4. Bxb7 Nd7  5. Bxa8 Qxa8, Black has rather good compensation for the exchange. 

I wonder what others here think about that.
  

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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #10 - 01/26/05 at 05:41:33
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Then Black candidates should visit Jeremy Silman's site first.
  

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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #9 - 01/26/05 at 02:16:28
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This is Lev Zilbermintz himself writing. You are only partly correct. I spend a lot of time on newsgroups and Internet Chess Club. However, the reason is that I like to experiment. After playing these games, I take my analyses into over-the-board tournament chess... and beat my opponents with the Zilbermints Grob Gambit!!

"Dodgy lines" ? Ha-ha-ha....   Grin Are you trying to avoid gambit (dodge) ?

Hope to meet you on Internet Chess Club. Let's see you play me at Game/30 minutes. Are you up to the challenge?

  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #8 - 12/29/03 at 11:34:45
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Thanks for the info
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #7 - 12/29/03 at 06:24:44
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The Zilbermintz gambit in the Grob is 1.g4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3. Lev Zilbermintz spends a lot of time on newsgroups, and seems to have quite a range of dodgy gambit lines which are probably OK in blitz, but which I wouldn't recommend for serious games.

Ben Hague
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #6 - 12/28/03 at 23:20:35
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Also, i remember hearing about some variation of the Grob that is called the Zibermints varation?? I may be wrong about the spelling, but can anyone inform me what moves are in that variation.
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #5 - 12/28/03 at 23:17:37
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I'm sure many of you Grob enthusiasts already know about this site, but chessopolis.com has several links to sites about the Grob especially the one titled Is the Grob really any good?  It has many instructive games and discussions of the opening.
  
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Gambiling on the grob??
Reply #4 - 12/22/03 at 10:29:25
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Winning quickly with 1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4 3.c4 is all well and good. However, would you have been prepared for 3...d4!?, the Romford countergambit?

The one chance I've had to play this OTB, my opponent had no idea what he was doing and went on to lose in pretty quick time. The line poses white some very unusual and difficult problems, which in my experience white finds insurmountable. It's a rumour that Basman gave up his Grob experiments because of this line (Despite his comment "Who's afraid of the Romford Countergambit??").

The exchange sac looks correct to me, and despite spending a good while looking at the position after 4.Bxb7 Nd7 5.Bxa8 Qxa8 6.f3 in the past, I've never found a line I consider fully satisfactory for white. Indeed, in another forum I used to contribute on, after a while a dedicated grob player admitted it might even be best to play 5.Bg2 and ignore the exchange, and even then black seems to get a comfortable game.

I really can't believe the grob gambit for white. And, despite my penchant for the weird and wonderful in chess, this is one opening I've never risked playing either on IECC or OTB chess (and on IECC I play 1.h4 regularly!).

Regards,
Craig  Grin
  

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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #3 - 09/04/03 at 00:13:48
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a friend of mine plays the grob so much we call him kenny g4! as a result, i have played against it enough to know that it's nothing 2 b afraid of. after 1.g4 e5 and black has no worries.
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #2 - 08/07/03 at 06:30:38
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I believe that it isn't nothing more than an interesting and a bit dangerous move. But of course in any 10+ game, it has to be catastrophic Smiley
  
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Re: Play the Grob
Reply #1 - 07/29/03 at 09:56:08
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I had the black side against Basman a few times, and as I won all, and normally very quickly, too, I don't have a very high opinion of the move.
Still, it can be fun to play no doubt! Undecided
  
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Play the Grob
07/18/03 at 08:53:31
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I think more people should play the Grob, 1.g4. You can have lots of fun in Rapidplay tournaments, and I beat somebody graded 30 BCF points above me after 1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 Bxg4?! 3. c4!

Mayybe boring people will play 2...e5 3. h3 c6, but I think after 4. d4 e4 5. c4 e4 White has an interesting position

Your thoughts please.
  
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