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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C50: Hungarian(?) Defense (Read 12255 times)
kylemeister
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Re: C50: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #19 - 08/03/14 at 16:44:32
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In that Yearbook article from last year, Jeroen Bosch (a Dutch IM) thought that the compensation after 6. Bd3 is "barely sufficient" and that White should avoid it, that 6. Be2 is preferable and should be dynamically equal, that 6. Qxd4 should be equal and 5. Nxd4 should indeed be slightly better for White.
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: C50: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #18 - 08/03/14 at 16:12:26
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Indeed, I think White's best after 4...exd4 5.c3 Na5 is to persist in sacrificing a pawn for compensation after 6.Bd3.  It may not be enough for a theoretical advantage but I rather like White's practical chances and the compensation should be at least sufficient. 

5...dxc3 is dubious because as well as the 6.Qd5 line (after 6...Nh6 7.Bxh6 0-0, both 8.Bxg7 and 8.Nxc3 are slightly better for White), White also gets the upper hand after 6.Nxc3 because if 6...d6 (otherwise 7.e5 follows) 7.Qb3 leaves Black unable to defend f7 and 7...Na5 8.Bxf7+ Kf8 9.Qa4 is slightly better for White as Black's bishop-pair does not fully compensate for the misplaced king and lagging development.

In addition I believe that White can get a small advantage due to the better development/central control with the simple 5.Nxd4.
  
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Re: C50: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #17 - 08/03/14 at 13:12:20
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The Hungarian featured in the last round of the British Championships in the game between Howell and Hebden. This started 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Be7 4. d4 d6 5. dxe5 dxe5 and now instead of the Queen exchange, Howell played the rare 6. Nbd2 and later won a good game.

I prefer to avoid this with 4. .. exd4. I wonder what Hebden has found in the queen exchange variation as I've usually suffered in the resulting position.

Andrew Martin's comments can be found at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3bsZs0IZiLc
« Last Edit: 08/03/14 at 17:37:23 by RdC »  
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MNb
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Re: C50: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #16 - 04/22/14 at 13:31:47
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JediKnight has analyzed the line here:

http://tws27.50webs.com/chess/scotch_gambit/minormoves.htm
  

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kylemeister
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Re: C50: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #15 - 04/22/14 at 03:57:23
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RdC wrote on 04/22/14 at 00:58:15:
5. c3 can be dangerous , tempting 5. .. dxc3 6. Qd5 Nh6 7. Bxh6 0-0. This doesn't win a piece without compensation, since if 8. Bc1, then 8. .. Nb4 gives dangerous counter-play. Returning the piece with 8. Bxg7 is likely to be the best try.

But there's an alternative with 5. .. Na5 . White then has the choice of whether to concede the Bishop pair with 6. Qxd4 or a pawn with 6. Be2/d3 dxc3.

(There was some analysis of this in the quarterly NIC Yearbook)


Indeed; I noticed that article.
Incidentally those possibilities have come up here before -- hasn't everything?  Smiley

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1201297346/21
  
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RdC
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Re: C50: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #14 - 04/22/14 at 00:58:15
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kylemeister wrote on 07/17/12 at 15:20:31:
(though Black can determine the type of position by 4...ed, whereupon White should just play 5. Nxd4 rather than 5. c3).


5. c3 can be dangerous , tempting 5. .. dxc3 6. Qd5 Nh6 7. Bxh6 0-0. This doesn't win a piece without compensation, since if 8. Bc1, then 8. .. Nb4 gives dangerous counter-play. Returning the piece with 8. Bxg7 is likely to be the best try.

But there's an alternative with 5. .. Na5 . White then has the choice of whether to concede the Bishop pair with 6. Qxd4 or a pawn with 6. Be2/d3 dxc3.

(There was some analysis of this in the quarterly NIC Yearbook)
  
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kylemeister
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Re: C50: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #13 - 07/17/12 at 15:20:31
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I'm always reminded of Hort playing it a few decades ago.  I take the standard view to be that it should be +=, and in the case of the main line 4. d4 d6 in several ways, with White being able to choose among different position types (though Black can determine the type of position by 4...ed, whereupon White should just play 5. Nxd4 rather than 5. c3).
  
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Re: C50: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #12 - 07/17/12 at 09:20:45
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/17/12 at 08:57:23:
So what is the opinion that most of you have on 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Be7  ..?

Underrated.  Cool
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: C50: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #11 - 07/17/12 at 08:57:23
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So what is the opinion that most of you have on 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Be7  ..?
  

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Re: C50: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #10 - 07/11/12 at 01:20:29
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I believe that the white square bishop does not belong on g4 in the Hungarian defense.

I find that it's most efficient job is to put direct pressure on e4 from c6 or b7 and then to eventually transfer to the Kingside (f5 or g6) to later pressure the central light squares and sometimes invade the enemy camp on d3 or c2.. Trading it for the Nf3 is usually a strategic mistake.

An under rated defense at mortal levels. (below 2400)
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #9 - 02/21/11 at 03:45:02
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Re: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #8 - 09/06/05 at 17:25:21
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The aljechin-game is:
4.c3,Bg4 5.Qb3,Qd7?! 6.Ng5,Nh6 7.Nxf7,Nxf7 8.Bxf7,Qxf7
9.Qxb7,Kd7!! 10.Qxa8,Qc4 Rodzynsky-Aljechin 1913
That's why its sometimes referred to as the Aljechin-variation
Wink
  
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Re: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #7 - 09/06/05 at 16:30:06
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3.Bc4 d6 4.d4 also promises an edge: Be7 5.o-o or 5.Nc3 is the Hungarian and Bg4 is answered with 5.h3.
  

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Re: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #6 - 09/06/05 at 13:06:37
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book recommendation is (usually with c3 before d4)
6 Be3 Nf6 7 Qb3 Nd8 8 Nbd2 g6 10 dxe5 with the idea a4-a5.
I had this variation once on the board (that was what I was looking up) he played 6 Bxf3 gxf3 (probably queen is better) 7 Nf6 Qb3 and black was defending for a lot of moves, though he got a draw.
  

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Re: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #5 - 09/06/05 at 10:57:48
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I'll look it up for you. Iirc it should be relatively easy to obtain an advantage, but I am not going to suggest anything without book and board at the ready.

PS it is called Alekhine variation in most Giuco books or they just refer to Alekhine having played it.
  

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basqueknight
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Re: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #4 - 09/06/05 at 10:27:05
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The reasoni play theruy lopez is the flexibility of it. You can not say that the spanish is a slow positional game because its only as closed as you play it. If i am not feeling well as in energy level where my play is open nad tactical i will play d3 in it. For a slower game wher i am less likely to make a mistake do to lack of energyand imagination (My coach calls me Tal). When i am up for a fist fight and my oppoent replys e5 i play a lopez with an early d4 and rapid development. I used to play the exchange but that was more of an endgame approach. That didnt suit me. But the lopez is only what you make it. You could call the italian boring for all those d3 players out there which in my opinion goes against what you guys believe for example rapid development, Nice center and a quick attack. This is what i think of when i think italian.But when some one plays d3 i am almost disgusted Undecided
  
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Re: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #3 - 12/09/03 at 21:44:13
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While at the GM level, the Lopez can seem stuffy and boring with complex maneuvering, there are plenty of fun (and agressive) lines for white. For example, Fischer was a huge fan of the exchange variation while Short used the Worall attack extremely effectively against Karpov in their Semi-Final match in the early 90s (1992 I think).
  
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Re: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #2 - 12/09/03 at 20:56:12
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Yes, e4 e5 Nf3 Nc6 Bc4 Be7 is the Hungarian Defense...however this was also listed as the Hungarian, hence the question mark.

As to the best lines...statistics often mean little to nothing because they do not apply to chess as they would to other things.  Just saying that it scores "75% for black" means nothing because 75% of the white players may not know the correct continuation! 

One more tidbit, the Lopez is absolutely not dynamic...after having seen hundreds of games with it and found nothing that looks too fun from the white side, I refuse to play it.  It's long, drawn-out, and positional.  I equate these traits with boring.

Oh, but the Bishop's gambit is quite entertaining...

NeX iRae
  
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Re: Hungarian(?) Defense
Reply #1 - 12/09/03 at 20:11:43
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I believe this transposes to a Philidor Defense. I always thought the Hungarian Defense was 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Be7; but maybe I am mistaken. Though 4. c3 seems logical, I find White only scoring 33% after 4...g6 (most of which is due to draws). From here, I find that statistically best is 5. d4 but 5. d4 Qe7 6. O-O Bg7 is nothing for white. The only game I have found where White won after 6...Bg7 is the following, but no other games have continued 7. Bg5 other than this one:

[Event "Balatonbereny op"]
[Site "Balatonbereny"]
[Date "1994.09.??"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Varga,Zoltan"]
[Black "Zatonskih,Vitaly"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C50"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.c3 g6 5.d4 Qe7 6.0-0 Bg7 7.Bg5 f6 8.Be3 Nh6 9.dxe5 fxe5 10.Bg5 Qd7 11.Na3 Nf7 12.Qd2 h6 13.Be3 g5 14.b4 Qe7 15.Bd5 Ncd8 16.Bb3 Ne6 17.c4 Nf4 18.c5 Bg4 19.Kh1 Bxf3 20.gxf3 dxc5 21.Bxc5 Nd6 22.Nb5 Bf8 23.Bxd6 cxd6 24.Qc2 Rb8
25.Nxa7 Qd7 26.Rg1 b5 27.Nc6 Rc8 28.Bd5 Be7 29.a4 bxa4 30.Qxa4 Nxd5 31.exd5 0-0 32.Rg3 Bd8 33.Qc2 Kg7 34.Ra6 Qf7 35.Qe4 Rc7 36.Ra8 Rd7 37.h4 Qh5 38.Qg4 Qxg4 39.Rxg4 Be7 40.Rxf8 Bxf8 41.hxg5 h5 42.Rg1 Rb7 43.Ra1 Kg6 44.Ra8 Bg7 45.Rb8 Rxb8 46.Nxb8 e4 47.fxe4 Kxg5 48.Nc6  1-0

However, there is certainly huge room for Black to improve during the first 10 moves or so. Instead, I'd favor 4. Nc3 (statistically best). Hope this helps.

The one problem with the Giuco Piano is that sometimes even quiet moves can gain Black equality. If you want something dynamic against  1...e5, I love the Ruy Lopez. Yes there's a good deal of theory involved, but then again, why would I be on this site if I had a problem with studying openings. Still, if the theory of the Lopez turns you off (or you simply don't like it) the Vienna and King's Gambit are very interesting tries. I have a soft spot for 1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Bc4(!) and though I have switched to the Lopez, I occasionally indulge myself in blitz games.
  
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nexirae
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C50: Hungarian(?) Defense
12/09/03 at 19:05:37
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This one just cropped up...

1.e4 e5 Nf3 Nc6 Bc4 d6

I'm confused as to the best move here...or at least the best options here.  I played what seemed to be the most common move, d4.  

The game proceeded:
4.d4 Bg4 c3 Qe7 (a move which has a high black advantage according to chessbase.com?!?) d5 Nb8 Bd3 and white gained a positional advantage.

However, this type of position does not suit my style and I seek to know what other options white has on the fourth move.  I felt that d4 was almost a mistake when Bg4 came down...

Anyway, I looked this up, and world champions have conflicting views:
Morphy played c3 (which I probably like the best on second thought)
Tal played Nc3
Spassky played d4

What to do!?!

Also, this variation which I have never encountered before has been played on the black side by no less a player than Capablanca and Alekhine!  

Help!
NeX iRae
« Last Edit: 07/19/11 at 14:51:47 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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