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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) SCANDINAVIAN 2...Nf6 ?! (Read 3986 times)
rooksway18
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Re: Scandinavian 2...Nf6 ?!
Reply #12 - 04/12/18 at 23:53:15
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In the Scandinavian, Marshall variation 1.e4 d5 2.ed Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.h3 Bxf3 6.Qxf3 c6 was eventually drawn in M.Carlsen v N.Short 2010. Post #8 below, back in 2004, speaks to the issue of giving up the bishop pair so early, but that is the only mention of this subvariation (after 5...Bxf3) I could find in any ChessPub forum. Along with Short's 6...c6, I've been wondering if 6...e6 or even the ambitious 6...Nc6 could be sound enough, especially below GM level.

So my question boils down to can 6...c6, 6...e6 or 6...Nc6 (or some other move) make 5...Bxf3 sound?
« Last Edit: 04/13/18 at 05:40:46 by rooksway18 »  
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Richard_Pitts
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Re: SCANDINAVIAN 2...Nf6 ?!
Reply #11 - 09/04/04 at 11:12:29
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The problem is I keep getting stuffed in the ...Qf5 lines!  Grin Can you recommend a decent couple of games to study?
  
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MNb
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Re: SCANDINAVIAN 2...Nf6 ?!
Reply #10 - 09/02/04 at 08:38:11
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What is wrong with 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Nf3 Qxd5 5.Nc3 and now Qf5!? or Qh5!?
  

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Richard_Pitts
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Re: SCANDINAVIAN 2...Nf6 ?!
Reply #9 - 08/27/04 at 18:30:35
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As someone who has punted this as Black from time to time, my pet hate is 1. e4 d5 2. ed Nf6 3. Be2!? - the logic is that white waits to see what black does before committing himself. Can anyone recommend a decent line?

In the Portugese variation 3. d4 Bg4!? 4. Nf3 Nxd5 seems like the only decent line I'm afraid  Sad again, can anyone recommend a decent line?

In the 3. Bb5+ line 3...Bd7 4. Bc4 Bg4 5. f3 Bf5 6.g4!? is a nuisance I have never dealt with properly, so I just play 5...Bc8 with a "position" which I have done well with.
  
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MNb
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Re: SCANDINAVIAN 2...Nf6 ?!
Reply #8 - 01/15/04 at 18:23:40
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@ alumbrado

You are right of course. But that is what the
Scandinavian Marshall is about - more space
against active piece play. So 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Be2
will not scare Black off. Though I must admit that
I lost once: 3.d4 Nxd5 4.Nf3 Bf5 5.Be2 e6 6.o-o Be7
7.a3 o-o 8.c4 Nf6 9.Nc3 Ne4 10.Nxe4 Bxe4
11.Re1 c5!? (I like this move in this opening, but
it is too risky here) 12.Bf1 Bg6 13.dxc5 Qxd1
14.Rxd1 Bf6 15.g4 h6 16.h4 De Veth-MNB, corr
1998. Now I would prefer 11.. a5.
Moreover, there is still 3.Bb5+ Nbd7 and after the solid 4.Nc3 g6!? looks very playable. Black should not play a6
too soon, as the bishop is not that strong on b5.

@ kreindl

As I gave up the Bg4 lines long ago, I just
digged in my old notes.
a1) 7.h3 I was thinking of (by transposition)
      Suetin-Gipslis, Minsk 1993. But Stenner-
      Maas, Hamburg 1992, might show how to
      handle this as Black.
a2) 7.Bg5 and Harman/Taulbut rate Varlamov-
     Shulman, Leningrad 1979 in their 1993 book
      as equal. I do not agree, but I also know a
      game Korelov-Goldenberg, corr 1992 which
      went h6 8.Bh4 g5 9.Bg3 Bg7. This line should
      be put more in practice, I guess.
b)    If your recommendation is 5.h3 Bxf3 I will not
      change my mind about this system. Giving up
      the pair of bishops that soon .... brrr.
c)    Yes, I agree: 5.Be2 Nc6 6.o-o e6 7.c4 Nb6
       8.Nc3 Bxf3 9.Lxf3 Nxc4 is playable.

So everyone agrees that 3.d4 Nxd5 4.Nf3 Bf5 5.Bd3
Bxd3 6.Qxd3 e6 7.o-o is a little advantageous for
White? Pity, I could use a good idea here.

To finish positively: I once thought to have found
the refutation of 3.d4 Bg4 and won with White
after 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.f3 Bg4 6Nc3 a6 7.Ba4 b5
8.Bb3 Nb6 9.Nge2 Nbxd5 10.Nxd5 Nxd5 11.o-o
e6 12.Ng3 Bg6 13.f4 Qd7 14.f5 exf5 16.Qf3
MNb - Officier, corr NED 1998. Compare this
with 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Bc4 Bg4 5.f3 Bf5 etc.
and in my game queenside castling was not
advisable for Black. But now I think 9.. b4
is an improvement; after 10.Ng3 Bg6 11.Nce4
Nfxd5 12.o-o e6 13.f4 Be7 14.f5 exf5 15.Nxf5
o-o 16.Nxe7+ Qxe7 17.Nc5 Qh4 I am not
convinced anymore of a White advantage.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Helmut Kreindl
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Re: SCANDINAVIAN 2...Nf6 ?!
Reply #7 - 01/15/04 at 08:09:55
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@ MNb

Before i was confronted with the Re1-Line, i played the g6 system over 15 years.

ad a) i dont see the problems for black here. Can you give me a little more details? i never saw the move 7.Bg5 Smiley?

ad b) yes! i also came to the conviction that 5.h3 Bh5 is very critical (for me THE critical line). After the loss of 3! games, now i play 5...Bxf3 with the hope, this is playable.
If it is not, i must step to to your recommendation 1) and 2).

ad c) to evade this line, i play 5....Nc6 with good results.
  
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alumbrado
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Re: SCANDINAVIAN 2...Nf6 ?!
Reply #6 - 01/15/04 at 04:15:27
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Fair enough, but as White I prefer to keep the bishops on, as I have a slight space advantage.
  

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MNb
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Re: SCANDINAVIAN 2...Nf6 ?!
Reply #5 - 01/14/04 at 18:52:52
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@ Kreindl

if you play the 4...Bg4 system, you should not
bother over the g6 systems. Still I think Black
faces a few problems:
a) 5.c4 Nb6 6.c5 N6d7 7.Bg5 or 7.h3
b) 5.h3 Bh5 6.g4 Bg6 7.Ne5
c) 5.Be2 e6 6.Ne5 Bxe2 7.Qxe2.
Black can also build a repertoire with
1) 3.d4 Bg4!?
2) 3.Nf3 Qxd5 4.Nc3 Qd6 5.d4 a6.

@ alumbrado

I do not mind 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Be2 because of
Nd5 5.d4 Bf5 and I think the White bishop is
a bit passive on e2. Compare 3.d4 Nxd5 4.Nf3
Bf5 when 5.Bd3 Bxd3 6.Qxd3 e6 7.o-o seems
to give White some lasting advantage.

@ spakus

Neither do I mind 3.Nc3 (also known in the
Alekhine) Nxd5 4.Bc4 Nb6 5.Bb3 Nc6.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Helmut Kreindl
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Re: SCANDINAVIAN 2...Nf6 ?!
Reply #4 - 01/14/04 at 05:02:25
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@ MNb

ad 3) In my mega-database white gains 90% in this line. It is more horrible, as it looks Smiley

ad 2) I play 4...Bg4 in this line, because after Bf5 5.Bd3 looks very good for white.

tx for the tip with the "kieler", i will check this line.


@alumbrado

the "positional line", but black looks ok after the strong Nf6-Ne4 idea

4...Nxd5 5. Nf3 Bf5 6.0-0 e6 7. a3!(c4 Nb4!) Be7 8. c4 Nf6 9.Nc3 Ne4! =

@spakus

yes, a lot of players choose the "attacking line", and i also prefer 4...Nb6 (yes Nxc3??). After Nc6-a4xb3 or a4 a5 Nb4 arise interesting und unbalanced positions on the board, and (i think) black has a full game here.
  
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spakus
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Re: SCANDINAVIAN 2...Nf6 ?!
Reply #3 - 01/13/04 at 19:59:11
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Here is another thought for white.  1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nxd5 4. Bc4!? Nxc3 5. Qf3 e6 6. Qxc3 when white has a developmental edge and pressure on the g7 square.  Of course black can play 4..e6 or Nb6 when he stands much better than after Nxc3, but it might be worth a try
  
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alumbrado
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Re: SCANDINAVIAN 2...Nf6 ?!
Reply #2 - 01/13/04 at 16:44:03
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There is also the annoying move order 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Be2
  

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MNb
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Re: SCANDINAVIAN 2...Nf6 ?!
Reply #1 - 01/13/04 at 15:59:56
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1. No, here is one, but I live in remote Surinam.
2. A bit more precise is 3.Nf3 (to avoid 3.d4 Bg4!?)
    Nxd5 4.d4 and Bf5 might be Black's best answer,
    though it can lead to dull Caro-Kann like positions.
3. Maybe +- in this line is a bit overdone, but Black
    has surely no equality.
The Georgian Variation (with g6) is under a cloud
indeed. But I have some good news: I really think
the Kieler Gambit 3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4!? is not so
bad as it's reputation. In corr. games I have a very
decent 2½ out of 3 with it.
Alas I have never solved the 3.Nf3 problem.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Helmut Kreindl
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SCANDINAVIAN 2...Nf6 ?!
01/13/04 at 09:02:35
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Three Questions:

1. Am i the last crazy warrior, suffering with this line, or are there some others anywhere outside?

2. What are the sweet-lines for white (except the Panov)?

3. Is the line
1. e4 d5 2. exd Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.Nf3 g6 refuted (i think so ) in view of
5. c4 Nb6 6. c5 Nd5 7.Bc4 Bg7 8.Nc3 c6 9. 0-0 0-0 10.Re1! +-
or are there some tricks for black?
  
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