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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C06: Tarrasch, 3...Nf6, 5.Bd3, 9...Qxf6 (Read 2625 times)
TopNotch
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but its always the best

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Re: C06: Tarrasch, 3...Nf6, 5.Bd3, 9...Qxf6
Reply #12 - yesterday at 19:04:42
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TomR wrote on 08/31/04 at 13:55:44:
I used to play this line as Black with good results until I faced the setup of White putting his Bishop on e3 and Knight from e2-g3. White has options of Nh5 at some point as well as Bb1, Qd3-h7 ideas. I found this very difficult to face. In fact I switched to the 3..Be7 line against the Tarrach because of it!


I too consider this 9...Qxf6 line inferior for Black, and White need only remember two plans to get a pleasant position. My guiding philosophy being, where possible, simplicity is always the best policy for otb players:

1) Aim to swap dark squared bishops.
2) Direct attack on Black's King via light squares.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Usually if Black tries to counter plan 1 then plan 2 works and vice versa. Also White can combine both plans at the same time. See the following instructive game from my repertoire files:

Hamdouchi,H (2541) - Zhang Pengxiang (2525) [C06]
Gp A Cap d'Agde (1), 29.10.2000
[Denny,K]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.Bd3 c5 5.e5 Nfd7 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6 9.exf6 Qxf6 10.Nf3 h6 11.0-0 Bd6 12.Be3 0-0 13.Bc2 Rf7 14.Qd2 Nf8 15.a3 [15.Ng3!? Bd7 16.Nh5 Qe7 17.Bf4+=] 15...Bd7 [15...Rc7 16.Bf4+=;
15...Ng6 16.Ng3 Rc7 (16...Nf4 17.Bxf4 Bxf4 18.Qd3 Bxg3 19.Qh7+ Kf8 20.fxg3 Nxd4 21.Bg6 Nxf3+ 22.Kh1!!+-) 17.Bxg6 (17.Nh5!? Qf7 18.Bxg6 Qxg6 19.Bf4 e5 20.dxe5 Bf8 21.Ng3±) 17...Qxg6 18.Bf4+=] 16.Ng5!? Re7 17.f4 Be8 18.Nf3 Bg6 19.Ba4 Rc7 20.Ne5 Rac8 21.Nc3 Qd8 22.Nb5 Re7 23.Nxd6 Qxd6 24.Nxg6 Nxg6 25.Bc2 Nf8 26.Rf2 Rf7 27.f5 exf5 28.Bxf5 Re8 29.Raf1 Qe7 30.Be6 Qxe6 31.Rxf7 Ng6 32.R7f3 Nh4 33.Rh3 Nf5 34.Bf2 Nd6 35.Qd3 Ne4 36.Be3 a6 37.Rhf3 Nb8 38.Bf4 Nd7 39.h3 Kh7 40.Be5 Re7 41.Rf5 Nb6 42.b3 Nd7 43.Bh2 Kg8 44.a4 Qc6 45.Qe3 b5 46.Rc1 Qe6 47.Rff1 b4 48.Qf4 Nc3 49.Kh1 Re8 50.Qf3 Nf6 51.Be5 Nfe4 52.Rc2 a5 53.Kh2 Qd7 54.Qh5 Ng5 55.Rcf2 Nce4 56.Rf4 Nd6 57.Bxd6 1-0

For further study GM John Emms has some very strategically instructive games in these lines, highly recommended.

Bye.
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Paul Cumbers
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Re: C06: Tarrasch, 3...Nf6, 5.Bd3, 9...Qxf6
Reply #11 - 02/15/18 at 12:47:41
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Paul Cumbers wrote on 02/08/18 at 14:23:14:
[1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6 9.exf6 Qxf6]

John Watson recently looked at the 9...Qxf6 variation on ChessPublishing (see http://www.chesspublishing.com/content/2/dec17.htm#tar), so I thought it was worth reviving this thread. One problem I think for Black after 10.Nf3 h6 is the rarely played 11.Nf4!?, e.g. 11...Bb4+ 12.Kf1 g5 (12...0–0 is the alternative) 13.Ng6 Rg8 14.h4 Rxg6 15.hxg5 hxg5 16.Bxg6+ Qxg6 17.Bxg5 (B.Ponomariov-Romero Leon, Alicante 1997). Although objectively this might be equal, Black's position seems very uncomfortable to me. I wonder if any authors have analysed this line...

The alternative I mentioned - 12...0-0 - also lacks appeal from Black's point of view, e.g. 13.h4 Bd6 14.Ng6 (ugh!) 14...Re8 15.g4

[or 15.Bg5!? Qf7 16.Be3 e5 17.Ng5! Qf6 18.Be4! Nb6 (18...dxe4 19.Qb3+) 19.dxe5 Nxe5 20.Bxd5+ Nxd5 21.Qxd5+, unclear]

15...Nxd4 16.Nxd4 Qxd4 (Lepelletier-Rahal, France 2003). At the very least, White has 17.Ne7+ Kh8 18.Ng6+ Kg8 ½-½
  
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Re: C06: Tarrasch, 3...Nf6, 5.Bd3, 9...Qxf6
Reply #10 - 02/08/18 at 14:23:14
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[1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6 9.exf6 Qxf6]

John Watson recently looked at the 9...Qxf6 variation on ChessPublishing (see http://www.chesspublishing.com/content/2/dec17.htm#tar), so I thought it was worth reviving this thread. One problem I think for Black after 10.Nf3 h6 is the rarely played 11.Nf4!?, e.g. 11...Bb4+ 12.Kf1 g5 (12...0–0 is the alternative) 13.Ng6 Rg8 14.h4 Rxg6 15.hxg5 hxg5 16.Bxg6+ Qxg6 17.Bxg5 (B.Ponomariov-Romero Leon, Alicante 1997). Although objectively this might be equal, Black's position seems very uncomfortable to me. I wonder if any authors have analysed this line...
  
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dom
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Re: Tarrasch, 3...Nf6, 5.Bd3, 9...Qxf6
Reply #9 - 09/01/04 at 06:46:17
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Hello  and welcome on board..
Maybe it will be interesting if you post on the forum some of your own games and comments about the feared lines...
It's always useful to know why some lines are chosen.
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
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TomR
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Re: Tarrasch, 3...Nf6, 5.Bd3, 9...Qxf6
Reply #8 - 08/31/04 at 13:55:44
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I used to play this line as Black with good results until I faced the setup of White putting his Bishop on e3 and Knight from e2-g3. White has options of Nh5 at some point as well as Bb1, Qd3-h7 ideas. I found this very difficult to face. In fact I switched to the 3..Be7 line against the Tarrach because of it!
  
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Peter Kitchen
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Re: Tarrasch, 3...Nf6, 5.Bd3, 9...Qxf6
Reply #7 - 04/30/04 at 10:35:58
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Much appreciated Dom. Thats been a great help. I'll work on this line during my summer break.
  
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dom
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Re: Tarrasch, 3...Nf6, 5.Bd3, 9...Qxf6
Reply #6 - 04/30/04 at 07:11:53
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[Event "Mitropa Cup 17th"]
[Site "Montecatini Terme"]
[Date "1997.11.07"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Ptacnikova,Lenka"]
[Black "Benitah,Yohan"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "C06"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6  9.exf6 Qxf6 10.Nf3 h6 11.Bc2 Bd6 12.Qd3 Nb4 13.Qg6+ Ke7 14.Bb1 Nf8 15.Qh5 g6 16.Qh4 Bd7 17.Bf4 Bxf4 18.Qxf4 Qxf4 19.Nxf4 g5 20.Nd3 a5 21.a3 Nxd3+ 22.Bxd3 Be8 23.Rc1 Kd6 24.Ne5 Nd7 25.h4 Rg8 26.hxg5 hxg5 27.Ng4 Rf8 28.g3 Nb8 29.Kd2 Nc6 30.Ke3 b6 31.Rh7 Ne7 32.Ne5 Rg8  33.Rh6 Rf8 34.f4 gxf4+ 35.gxf4 Rb8 36.Rf1 Bd7 37.f5 Ng8 38.Rg6 Ne7 39.Rh6 Ng8 40.Rh7 Nf6 41.Nxd7 Nxd7 42.fxe6 Kxe6 43.Rh6+ Rf6 44.Bf5+ Kd6 45.Rfh1 Rbf8 46.Kf4 Nb8 47.Kg5 Rxh6 48.Rxh6+ Kc7 49.Rh7+ Kd6 50.Rg7 Rd8 51.Rg6+  1/2
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
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dom
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Re: Tarrasch, 3...Nf6, 5.Bd3, 9...Qxf6
Reply #5 - 04/29/04 at 18:46:46
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Well, delaying castling is not my idea, but GM's one.
Finally I'll just propose one plan with that idea.
I recall the opening moves: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6 9.exf6 Qxf6 10.Nf3 h6
and now:
11.Bc2!? Bd6 (11...Bb4+!? 12.Bd2 Bd6 13.oo oo (13...e5 14.exd5 Nxe5 15.Nxe5 and White advantage ; 13...g5 14.h3 oo 15.Bc3 or 14...g4 15.hxg4 Rg8 16.Nc3 or 14...Nb6 15.Re1) 14.Be3! transpose to main games: Palac-Troselj,Rijeka 2001; Kindermann-Bunzmann,Lippstadt 1998; Hamdouchi-Zhang Pengxiang,Cap d'Agde 2000; Emms-Zaja,Istanbul ol 2000 (Psakhis Nd2) ; 11...Nb4 12.Bb1 Nc6 (12...Bd6 13.Nc3 oo 14.a3 Nc6 15.Qd3) 13.oo Bd6 14.Qd3 Ne7 )
and I propose move 12.Qd3!? (12.a3 transpose to Khamrakulov's game: 12...oo 13.Qd3 Rd8 14.h4 but here I advice 14...e5!? much clearer than 14...Nf8 15.g4!? e5 Khamrakulov-Carrasco,Villa de Albox 2001 (Psakhis Nd2)) where White has simple threats.
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
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Peter Kitchen
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Re: Tarrasch, 3...Nf6, 5.Bd3, 9...Qxf6
Reply #4 - 04/29/04 at 07:36:33
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Yeah thats basically what happened. His kingside attack was stronger and my whole position caved in. From what i can make out the play along the b1-h7 diagonal is white's best try. If i can fathom my way through teh technical middlegame i do tend to find myself in slightly better endings: your delayed castling idea is very interesting and I intend on looking at thta further. Thanks again!!
  
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dom
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Re: Tarrasch, 3...Nf6, 5.Bd3, 9...Qxf6
Reply #3 - 04/29/04 at 06:58:49
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I was wrong...it's not Karpov-Zhang Zong  but Hamdouchi-Zhang PengZiang Cap d'Agde 2000.
Psakhis has given many interesting lines in one of hist latest books about French: in French Nd2, he explains system with Qxf6 is now another "main" line besides Nxf6-line. I read it carefully and there are many more ideas, and the main one is "delaying castling for White". For example you can play Bb1!? at once before castling and after Bd6, Qd3 (if Black castles then immediate mate Qh7#), hence Black can play Nb4,Qg6+,Qxg6,Bxg6+ leading to one of many endings with little advantage to White. One Khamrakulov's game (I lost one game in Nxf6-variation vs him at Condom two years ago...he is a good tactical player)  given by Psakhis, is interesting: White doesn't castle and after Black plays Rd8,Nf8 (the system I gave in my last post) then White plays g4!? and then h4.
Your idea with Ba2 is an interesting try, wich looks like Nc3 move targeting d5 pawn, because in some lines you'll hinder Black e5 pawn push. But, e5-freeing move is only one positional idea, and I recall: Black have to attack White king !! and leaving the "good" bishop on the wrong wing means kingside attack for Black will be stronger (Example: Nf6,Ne4 ; Qf7-Qh5 or Be8-Bh5 as you gave)
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
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Peter Kitchen
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Re: Tarrasch, 3...Nf6, 5.Bd3, 9...Qxf6
Reply #2 - 04/28/04 at 08:15:31
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Thanks Dom.

In the game where i got hammered I tried taking my bishop back to b1, but then i completely lost the plot and put it to a2. After the simple Bc8-d7-e8-h5 manouevre I was lost.

These ideas will help a lot: thanks very much!
  
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dom
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Re: Tarrasch, 3...Nf6, 5.Bd3, 9...Qxf6
Reply #1 - 04/28/04 at 07:29:33
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Hello,...and welcome on the French forum  Smiley
Just one quick reply to begin (I'll post more information later): Qxf6 is one good alternative system to main line (Nxf6). I saw Karpov playing the line as White vs Zhang Zong (?) in Cap d'Agde's rapid tournament, and I must admit first moves are natural for White and Black but after the opening a strategical plan is needed for both sides. The main ideas are: Black doesn't allow White to play positional exchange of dark squares bishop (on f6 square, queen controls important dark squares like d4,f4,e5) but the price are weakened light squares (b1-h7 diagonal), development delay (h6 pawn move, Nd7 must move,...) ; White has done all natural moves and Black has not exchange sacrifice on f3 (in main lines: Rf8xf3 often occurs to destroy pawn structure around White king). Hence, Black has only some ideas after castling: push e5 or move knight on d7 and play Bd7-Be8-Bh5 ; White has to use light squares on a1-h7 (Bc2/Bb1-Qd3) and to strengthen d4 and e5 control (Bd2-Bc3 or Be3). Answering light squares stategy, Black often plays: Rfd8 and Nf8 (Zhang Zong doesn't play like that but Rf7?! )
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
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Peter Kitchen
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C06: Tarrasch, 3...Nf6, 5.Bd3, 9...Qxf6
04/27/04 at 14:56:52
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I have had some trouble with this line as white: I just don't know where to put my minor pieces after 10. Nf3 h6. Nothing in my assembled literature back home has anything on this (its all stranded 130 miles away as I am a student!!). All I have to go on is a hammering in a league match when i played a shocking game, and the knowledge of a fellow club member back home I see evry couple of months. Can anyone help me??
« Last Edit: 08/03/11 at 21:26:42 by dom »  
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