Latest Updates:
Normal Topic C10: French 3.h6 !? (Read 2494 times)
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1775
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: C10: French 3.h6 !?
Reply #9 - 05/14/18 at 08:47:04
Post Tools
Quote:
It was covered by Watson in his Dangerous Weapons The French giving after 11.0-0,c5 12.c4,Nc7!?

Thanks for this. But I wish I could understand why this Dangerous Weapon shouldn't be thought dangerous only for Black, who is seriously behind in development, to say nothing of the awkward Nc7 that seems unlikely to find a home on d5 or e6. Just 13 cd ed (13 ...Nd5 14 Qd3) 14 c4 looks awful for Black to me, or am I missing something? I'd instinctively prefer to keep things closed with 11 0-0 Nc7 12 c4 Be7, though that too looks uninspiring.

But maybe after 4 Bd3, Bricard's 4 ...Bb4!? is the way to go? -- does Watson discuss this? Then 5 e5 b6 (or 5 ...Ne7 which might transpose?) 6 Qg4 Kf8 looks playable, e.g. 7 Nf3 Bc3 8 bc Ba6 9 0-0 Ne7. Black's ...h6 doesn't look too bad an inclusion here? (Though after 3 ...Bb4 I guess few people meet the rare anti-Winawer line 4 Bd3!? with 4 ...h6!?.)


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Spock68
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 5
Joined: 10/11/17
Re: C10: French 3.h6 !?
Reply #8 - 05/12/18 at 20:30:15
Post Tools
It was covered by Watson in his Dangerous Weapons The French giving after 11.0-0,c5 12.c4,Nc7!?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1775
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: C10: French 3.h6 !?
Reply #7 - 05/12/18 at 12:51:17
Post Tools
Bump! Fourteen(!) years after the previous poster gave [3 Nc3 h6!?] 4 Bd3 Nc6 5 Nf3 Nb4 6 Bb5! [6 ...c6 7 Be2 Nf6 8 e5 Ne4 9 a3 Nc3 10 bc Na6 11 0-0 followed by c2-c4] as a refutation, I took a look but could not rescue this line, annoyingly. Does anyone have an antidote (or a contrary view)?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Antti Koponen
Guest


Re: French 3.h6 !?
Reply #6 - 09/09/04 at 13:04:19
Post Tools
I also considered this line. However,
in the last line

3.Bd3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nb4 5.Be2 Nf6 e5 Ne4 6.a3 Nxc3 7.bxc3 Nc6

better is 5.Bb5+

and white is  better in all lines.  Cry

It really is as simple as that! 

Antti Koponen
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JeffD
Guest


Re: French 3.h6 !?
Reply #5 - 09/09/04 at 11:58:59
Post Tools
Actually I think the system is very playable. It was analysed by Jeroen Bosch in a NIC issue, and I was pretty convinced by the analysis. In fact, I was playing a closed tournament and was facing the tournament leader the very next day.
The guy was a 15-year old kid but ourated me by 300 points. (I was rated 1950 at the time). I lost the game, but not without a fight.  And my position after the opening was very decent. Plus, I had made him think at least 25 minutes on his moves. I've been playing the opening ever since with decent results.
I don't think white should underestimate this line at all.
h6 looks weakening but is uselful in many lines; after exd5 for example no Bg5 and black equalises.
if e5 then white can't play c3 as he usually does in the advance variation, and opening up the position on after c5  doesn't bring much in my opinon although of course further analysis is needed.

The lines 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e5 Ne4! is also o.k for black since the best square for the knight on f3 is taken. Black exchanges on c3 and gets a winawer structure while keeping his f8 bishop!

There is also 3.Bd3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nb4 5.Be2 Nf6 e5 Ne4 6.a3 Nxc3 7.bxc3 Nc6 where black is perfectly ok despite the lack of developpement.

Try it! It's fun
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
alumbrado
God Member
*****
Offline


Esse quam videri bonus
malebo

Posts: 1418
Location: London
Joined: 02/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: French 3.h6 !?
Reply #4 - 06/29/04 at 09:14:44
Post Tools
Hmm ... interesting ...

Personally, I think that ...h6 is a major concession for Black in that sort of position and I also reckon the Black is much better on d7 than g8.

I would even go so far as to say it is almost a pity from his point of view that he already has ...Nc6 in, since that stops him playing ...Ng8-e7-c6 and ...Nb8-d7.  Well, maybe that is going too far, but it should give you some idea of how much I favour the knight on d7 in this more open type of position - although if White were trying to hold a pawn on d4 with c2-c3, I would definitely prefer it on g8 so that it could get to f5.

I guess the only way to prove it would be to do some more analysis - but since I have no intention of reaching this position with either side I will content myself with agreeing to disagree and leave it to those who want to give it a try!
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ben_Hague
Full Member
***
Offline


I'm always happier when
I'm a pawn down.

Posts: 157
Location: Oldham
Joined: 06/20/03
Gender: Male
Re: French 3.h6 !?
Reply #3 - 06/29/04 at 08:32:53
Post Tools
There is another thread about this line - with the title "Winawer - 3...h6!?" - which you might also want to look at. 3...h6 certainly isn't as bad as it looks, it's been played regularly by some very strong players including GMs Eingorn and Legsky, so you won't find an easy way to get a big advantage.

The most popular line seems to be 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Nb4 6.Be2. I can't find an example of 4.e5 c5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.dxc5, which to me looks like a reasonable idea, but I don't agree that it looks clearly better for white. Comparing it to the other line you give (1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Nf3 c5 6.dxc5) the differences are:
1) The pawn is on h6 not h7. I think this is neutral as now g6 is weaker so f6 is discouraged, but having control over g5 is also useful.
2) The knight is on g8 not d7. I think that d7 is a slightly better square than g8, but there isn't much in it.
3) The other knight is on c6 not b8. This is a clear plus for this line.

So overall I would say that black should be slightly better off in the h6 line than in the "normal" line.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
alumbrado
God Member
*****
Offline


Esse quam videri bonus
malebo

Posts: 1418
Location: London
Joined: 02/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: French 3.h6 !?
Reply #2 - 06/29/04 at 07:07:28
Post Tools
I am not so sure about that solution.  While it can't be bad for White, I am no sure it is the most challenging way to try to take advantage of Black's cheeky third move.

For one thing, it can't really be that threatening to enter an exchange variation, even if the 'trade off' of Nc3 for ...h6 is marginally in White's favour - can it?

If he could make use of the better development by opening the game with c2-c4, that would be another matter, but his 'extra' move specifically prevents that.

Personally, I think the major drawbacks to ...h6 are the weakening of the g6 square, and the blocking of a good square for the black knight, from which it can often leap to f5.

Both of these factors are more pronounced in an Advance structure as Black will almost certainly want to play ...f6 at some point to undermine e5, which will further weaken the kingside light squares; and he will often want to play ....Nh6-f5 to pressurise d4, while leaving the f8-a3 diagonal open for his bishop.

For these reasons, my preference with White would be to play (1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 h6) 4.e5! and if 4...c5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.dxc5, putting the emphasis on quick development and strongpointing e5 with pieces.

This strikes me as being much better for White than the comparable 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Nf3 c5 6.dxc5 line.  The trade off of Nc3 for ...h6 is much better for White than in the Exchange Variation, while I simply don't buy the argument that the knight is better on g8 than on d7.  True, it can go to e7 and f5 here, but on the other hand it can't recapture on c5 (and then chop off a White bishop on d3), and it doesn't put any pressure on the e5 pawn.
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tzanidakis_Michael
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 118
Location: Athens
Joined: 07/28/03
Gender: Male
Re: French 3.h6 !?
Reply #1 - 06/29/04 at 04:55:08
Post Tools
After 3..h6? you simply play 4.exd5 and you go to an open game in which white have gained a permanent gain of a tempo (white have already developed 2 central pawns and a knight and black have developed only two central pawns). With accurate play white will have a lasting initiative.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Susanto
Guest


C10: French 3.h6 !?
06/29/04 at 01:42:50
Post Tools
Hi all,

I found recently a guy playing this line :

1.e4 e6
2.d4 d5
3.Nc3 h6 !? the waiting move.

while the move seems wasting tempo, but it's far from easy to take immediate advantage of it.

Any opinion about this line ?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: 08/03/11 at 21:25:16 by dom »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo