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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C30-C39 C33: The Fascinating King's Gambit (Read 122902 times)
JEH
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Re: C30-C39 C33: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #262 - 12/11/15 at 14:51:54
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 12/11/15 at 14:38:13:
Tada! It's now over 100K!


  

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Re: C30-C39 C33: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #261 - 12/11/15 at 14:38:13
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Tada! It's now over 100K!
  
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TalJechin
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Re: C30-C39 C33: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #260 - 12/11/15 at 00:09:50
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Brackmar wrote on 12/10/15 at 01:09:41:
In 'The fascinating King's gambit' T. Johansson wrote: 'unfortunately modern computers soon came up with some strong improvements for black, in the theoretical main line, i.e. the Kieseritzky Gambit. These new ideas are almost certainly the reason why the King's Gambit has almost vanished from grandmaster practise the last few years'

I haven't found much information about these improvements, could someone please give a hint about where I should search?

Thanks.


Especially 5...d6 seemed to almost force a draw, but also 5...Nf6 or even 5...Be7 seemed problematic too, IIRC...

I think we debated these ad nauseam here back in the day - try googling the forum like this:
https://www.google.se/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=site...

or simply use the index and explore:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?board=Kgambit


Yikes, this thread is about to hit 100 000 soon! Smiley
  
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Brackmar
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Re: C30-C39 C33: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #259 - 12/10/15 at 01:09:41
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In 'The fascinating King's gambit' T. Johansson wrote: 'unfortunately modern computers soon came up with some strong improvements for black, in the theoretical main line, i.e. the Kieseritzky Gambit. These new ideas are almost certainly the reason why the King's Gambit has almost vanished from grandmaster practise the last few years'

I haven't found much information about these improvements, could someone please give a hint about where I should search?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: 12/10/15 at 13:12:26 by Brackmar »  
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TalJechin
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Re: C30-C39 C33: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #258 - 03/21/15 at 11:35:14
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Knightcut wrote on 03/21/15 at 09:43:34:
Thus, so far my conclusion is that 3...c6 probably doesn't yield Black better chances than 3...Nf6. It is still interesting though that it scores better and seems to have a higher average rating amongst it's followers, at least in my database. I may have to buy Johanssons book to get deeper into it.


By the way, in case you missed it in this looong thread, maybe I should mention that the TJ in TalJechin stands for the initials of the author, i.e. I'm him! Wink

I don't think I mention 3...c6 followed by 4/5...b5 in the book - so, some may  use it to get White 'out of book' I suppose. But the main point with 3...c6 is that 4.Nc3 d5 5.exd5 Qh4+ 6.Kf1 f3 looked scary for White for a while, until Ivanchuk showed how to play it for White. I even named that chapter 'The Scarecrow' Smiley

Despite Shaw's claim of refutation it's comforting to see that Ivanchuk still plays the Bishop's Gambit - he recently beat Karjakin in a rapid game.
(http://www.chessbomb.com/arena/2015-vlpetrovmem-r/09-Ivanchuk_Vassily-Karjakin_S...)

No 3...Nc6 there though. I wonder if Chucky was planning to play one of my lines with 4.d4 or something else? Well, sooner or later I guess someone will find out! Smiley
  
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Re: C30-C39 C33: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #257 - 03/21/15 at 09:43:34
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Wow, thanks a lot. Setting up a tournament with different programmes goes beyond my capability, but just tossing a bit with the pieces a bit further down the line with different programmes kibitzing - and looking at the game excamples from Taljechin -  have made me realize that 4...b5 may actually not be that good.

I then looked at 4...Ne7, which is interesting, but I failed to find anything good after 5.Qh5! d5 (5...Ng6 6.d4!) 6.exd5 cxd5 7.Nxd5 Nxd5 8.Bxd5 Qe7+ 9.Ne2 with good play for White.

Thus, so far my conclusion is that 3...c6 probably doesn't yield Black better chances than 3...Nf6. It is still interesting though that it scores better and seems to have a higher average rating amongst it's followers, at least in my database. I may have to buy Johanssons book to get deeper into it.

Anyway, since the release of Shaws book, my personal preference has clearly been 3...Nc6, which has also paid of in terms of many good practical results. That move has been discussed at some length in the thread on Shaws book elsewhere on the forum (and where I'm still hoping for some feedback to a replay (139) I made 25 november 2014...).

Thanks again both to Tony and Taljechin!
  
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Re: C30-C39 C33: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #256 - 03/16/15 at 21:24:36
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I think one of the reasons engines like 4...b5 (iso 4...Nf6) is that it doesn't prevent Qh4+, which is the move most engines want to play in the Bishop's gambit, but which doesn't happen to be that great after all
  
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TalJechin
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Re: C30-C39 C33: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #255 - 03/15/15 at 20:43:11
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Here's some food for thought from what examples I found in the database. To me 4...b5 looks like an unnecessary weakening but today's engines may well overvalue the benefits of forcing play as they get deeper quicker into lines with forced moves (especially goes for Stockfish in the opening phase).

If you want to investigate it more thoroughly I'd suggest you let the engines play a theme tournament on the position after 4...b5 with a long time control and 2 games w+b between every engine. I would expect Houdini (and probably also Rybka) to score quite well as White (and probably also as Black depending on opposition). Other engines to invite would be for example: Komodo, Critter, Fire/Mars/Robbolito, Strelka plus perhaps a few different Sfish-clones tweaked differently (there are plenty of them nowadays).

After a few games you'll notice which engines get the position best as white or black and can pit them against each other. and you'll notice recurring themes as well and you can move the starting position further in as the main line tends to develop.

  
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Re: C30-C39 C33: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #254 - 03/08/15 at 11:46:00
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TalJechin wrote on 02/01/05 at 18:14:41:
Quote:

[quote] Anyway he examines the line 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nf6 (or 3...c6 4.Nc3 Nf6 though he doesn't indicate that these lines are analogous) 4...c6!


Well, he does mention that they transpose, which hardly needs saying as it is rather obvious isn't it?



I am interested in knowing, if 3...c6 may actually lead to better independent play after 4.Nc3 than transposing to the mainline through 4...Nf6, for example 3...c6 4.Nc3 4...b5!? Unfortunately, I haven't got Johanssons book myself, so I am seeking some help from some who knows it - or have good advice anyhow! 3...c6 4.Nc3 b5 is rarely seen, but scores well for Black in the 5 games in my database (3 wins, 1 Draw, 1 loss). It is also higher regarded by Stockfish than 4...Nf6. Am I overlooking something? Advice on the matter will be highly appreciated!
  
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #253 - 06/25/13 at 17:51:28
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micawber wrote on 03/19/06 at 17:59:19:
Thomas Stock had an interesting site on gambits a few years back. But it has disappeared into an electronic Walhalla without leaving a trace. This site contained interesting information on the Kings Gambit , especially the Muzio.... He tried both to trace the history of this variation, provide new analysis and organised email-thema-tournaments. Most of the games of these tournaments have been saved by Tim Harding on his Mega-Correspondence-CD.


There's an internet archive site called
The Wayback Machine.
You might be able to find the Thomas Stock site on gambits through this Wayback Machine link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20020603234324/http://thomasstock.com/gambit/
  

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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #252 - 02/10/11 at 23:15:28
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Dragonslayer wrote on 02/01/05 at 17:37:23:
GM Emil Sutovsky recently played this variation against Nisipeanu. In New In Chess Magazine issue 7/2004 he comments the game. Here are the first few moves:
1.e4 d6 2.Nc3 e5 (2...c5 is a closed Sicilian or open but White chooses!; 2...Nf6 3.d4 e5 is more Philidor stuff, but White can play 3.f4!? when 3...e5 is a KG declined and 3...c5 a Sicilian Grand Prix, but Black has missed out on the Tal gambit as well as ...e6 and ...d5 lines)
3.f4! exf4 4.Bc4 Now it is a Bishop's gambit.
Sutovsky (as did IM Lawrence Day who played 4.d4 in this position) dislikes 4.Nf3 which he claims leads to a bad version of the classical gambit (Fischer defence). Actually this is not so, but let's just leave people thinking that and score a few easy points (Btw this demonstrates clearly that even GMs are oblivious to recent theory as ling as it has not been in Informator or the week in chess).
4...Qh4 5.Kf1 Be6 6.Qe2! This also occurred in Fischer-Evans, USA 1963. After Fischer had "refuted" the King's gambit...food for thought.

The familiar move-order would be 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Qh4+ 4.Kf1 d6 5.Nc3 Be6 6.Qe2. Now 6...Nd7!? is an interesting move played only recently (and so not mentioned in The FKG). White can get his pawn back straight away with 7.Bxe6 fxe6 8.Qc4 0-0-0 9.Qxe6, but at the cost of neglecting development. Now I like 9...g5! for Black (9...Ngf6 was Gonzalez Molina-Albesa, email 2007). E.g. 10.Nf3 Qh5 11.Qf5 (or 11.h4 Bh6) 11...Bh6 12.Qa5 Ne7! (White's attack is not as dangerous as it looks) 13.Qxa7 (or 13.Nb5 Nb6 14.Nxa7+ Kb8 15.Nb5 Nc6 and White runs out of steam) 13...Nc6 14.Qa8+ Ndb8 followed by a counter-attack beginning with ...g4.

Other "smash and grab" tries by White also seem unconvincing: 7.Nb5 0–0–0! 8.Nxa7+ Kb8 9.Nb5; and 7.Nf3 Qf6! 8.Nb5 0–0–0 9.Bxe6 fxe6 10.Qc4 c6 11.Nxa7+ Kc7.
  
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #251 - 07/23/06 at 13:43:37
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Smiley
Thanks Jon for sincere answers. I can hardly wait for your book, and by the way I expect three books on KG: one is yours, second is from Quality Chess Books, Sweden, and the third comes from Beyer Verlag, Germany. Johansson's FKG has 224 pages, I'm wondering how will you cover all variations of KG in single volume with small pages...
  

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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #250 - 07/23/06 at 10:25:04
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Quote:
Smiley
I don't understand why your future book Mr. Tait on KG must or will have 192 pages as all new opening releases from Everyman Chess.


That's just pre-publishing blurb. Dunno how many pages it has yet since I haven't finished it (though it will be around 192 to fit the covers).


Quote:
The KG bible is expected, and I don't see a reason why nobody writes a new modern book, complete and comprehensive on KG.


It won't be complete and comprehensive though. For instance Thomas's book has over 200 pages and that's just on the Bishop's Gambit (plus Declined lines for White).

Personally I think complete and comprehensive is beside the point for the King's Gambit anyway. One of my favourites is Bücker's Das Neue Königsgambit and that's only 90 little pages, but it's a great place to start play from.


Quote:
Today we see only intros and "Novice books", books with false titles like "Bashing the...", "Winning with...", "Beating the...". Only money counts, so there are really few experts who are ready to deal with writing a top notch opening book.


That's true. Partly it's because encyclopaedic tomes don't sell very well; and also because it doesn't pay authors to write them.


Quote:
I feel resurrection every time when top GM outplays oponnents in openings which are disregarded. The truth really has many faces...


Yes, there's lots of fun to be had with old-fashioned openings Smiley


PS Please don't call me Mr Tait. Instead Jon will do just fine.
  

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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #249 - 07/22/06 at 23:07:31
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Smiley
I don't understand why your future book Mr. Tait on KG must or will have 192 pages as all new opening releases from Everyman Chess. The KG bible is expected, and I don't see a reason why nobody writes a new modern book, complete and comprehensive on KG. Today we see only intros and "Novice books", books with false titles like "Bashing the...", "Winning with...", "Beating the...". Only money counts, so there are really few experts who are ready to deal with writing a top notch opening book. I feel resurrection every time when top GM outplays oponnents in openings which are disregarded. The truth really has many faces...
  

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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #248 - 07/22/06 at 09:04:13
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nice to see my name up there with the grandmasters Wink

as to my assessment: I think you should play the King's Gambit to win with either colour Smiley
  

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