Latest Updates:
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: The Burn with Bxf6 (Read 10773 times)
tony37
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 543
Joined: 10/16/10
Re: C11: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #26 - 08/31/13 at 23:22:31
Post Tools
that looks like a logical explanation
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Papageno
Senior Member
****
Offline


FM

Posts: 299
Location: Germany
Joined: 06/12/08
Gender: Male
Re: C11: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #25 - 08/31/13 at 21:21:26
Post Tools
Most likely this was just blindness by the person who entered the moves of the game into Chessbase. While most humans play 6.Bxf6+ Bxf6 7.Nf3, the Chessbase "HEUristic Move Assistant" erroneously assumes 6.Nxf6 as the most likely move. Which might have slipped into the databases.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tony37
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 543
Joined: 10/16/10
Re: C11: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #24 - 08/31/13 at 20:16:25
Post Tools
I have just a weird observation, too unimportant to start a new thread:
after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Be7 6.Nxf6+ Bxf6 I can find four games that continued 7.Nf3?? and not one of them (of which someone rated 2438) continued 7...Bxg5
fourfold mutual blindness
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ormechea
Ex Member


Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #23 - 02/04/05 at 20:06:59
Post Tools
The burn is neat to me because i play Moros idea with a6 then b5 and Bb7 with the night going to d7 its a doubkle edged system
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2295
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #22 - 02/04/05 at 11:27:00
Post Tools
I'm sure it's me, but I just don't like the Burn.  If I'm going to play 3 ... dxe4, I'd rather play 1 ... c6 and not have my light-squared bishop locked in.  What I like about the French is the tension Black can build up on White's center.  The Burn's solid, but I'd prefer a Caro any day of the week.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ormechea
Ex Member


Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #21 - 02/03/05 at 22:11:23
Post Tools
I play Nf6 and somtimes Be7 either way you can get somting familiar with the burn formation somthign i would love anytime i play the french because its where im most comfortable.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10141
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #20 - 02/03/05 at 21:37:57
Post Tools
After 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3/d2 dxe4 4.Nxe4 I have found more than 1100 games with 4...Nf6. In more than 300 games White played 5.Bg5. Not that I like Black's opening play.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
alumbrado
God Member
*****
Offline


Esse quam videri bonus
malebo

Posts: 1418
Location: London
Joined: 02/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #19 - 02/03/05 at 08:39:31
Post Tools
Hmm ... White has to be quite obliging, for the Rubinstein to transpose to the Burn, doesn't he?  I mean, after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4, what do you do?  I can't think of too many lines in the Rubinstein where White meets ...Nf6 with Bg5.
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ormechea
Ex Member


Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #18 - 02/03/05 at 08:31:38
Post Tools
i play the Rubenstein to transpose into a burn Smiley because i dont like the steinitz variation of the french. It scares me. I know it shouldnt but i makes me feel uncomfortable. Does any one like Moros line with gxf6. I play this my self and have had good results with it against the computer and other wise. People think its weak alot of the time because of the hole in the kingside but what a lot of people dont know is you can castle king side if you cna keep the center closed because it is rather difficult to attack wit hthe pawn complex.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tzanidakis_Michael
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 118
Location: Athens
Joined: 07/28/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #17 - 01/20/05 at 00:04:24
Post Tools
Quote:
The big difference is: with the French you can follow up with .. c5, while in the Philidor you do not get to play ... f5 so easily.

Therefore, in the former case, it is likely that a knight landing on e5 necessarily feels shaky of its post, while in the latter a knight landing on d5 cannot be disloged so easily.



I agree with you of course. I brought French as an example cause both positions are solid but you cannot have great expectations from those variations. And of course Rubinstein variation is better (or more precisely faster, more solid and easier in general) than Philidor's for the reasons you said, that's why it's more popular.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1499
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #16 - 01/19/05 at 20:16:01
Post Tools
Quote:
You mean what's the point of exchanging exd4 if you have supported it with d6? It's true that exd4 is a bit passive and it looks like dxe4 in the Rubinstein variation of the French.


The big difference is: with the French you can follow up with .. c5, while in the Philidor you do not get to play ... f5 so easily.

Therefore, in the former case, it is likely that a knight landing on e5 necessarily feels shaky of its post, while in the latter a knight landing on d5 cannot be disloged so easily.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tzanidakis_Michael
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 118
Location: Athens
Joined: 07/28/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #15 - 01/19/05 at 14:13:00
Post Tools
Quote:
First of all the rating of the computer was only about 16XX Undecided 


End of discussion  Wink

Quote:
My friend played the philidor agaisnt me and played that line one which i was not prepared for becasue what the hell is the point of supporting it with d6

You mean what's the point of exchanging exd4 if you have supported it with d6? It's true that exd4 is a bit passive and it looks like dxe4 in the Rubinstein variation of the French. In my opinion, the only reasonable try for exd4 is to follow up with g6, an idea I sometimes play.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ormechea
Ex Member


Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #14 - 01/19/05 at 11:42:39
Post Tools
First of all the rating of the computer was only about 16XX Undecided at the time not unleashed. Second of all its hard to beat a computer for sure but once you realize that you can play aginst one who plays for tactics sure you know it will win more often than not in an open game and the same with a human mind across from you the goal of the opening is to reach a playable middle game. This can be demonstrated best by a certain Emanuel Lasker and Mikhail Tal who often did not play the best move but the psychologically best move. Somthing that can crush a players home prepartion. In the Michigan Class I had spent a couple of months on home prepartion in my opening selection. I play a Kings Pawn and went over a few lines of th philidor. One i dismissed was the exchage where after playing d6 black trades off his e pawn. My friend will played the philidor agaisnt me and played that line one which i was not prepared for becasue what the hell is the point of supporting it with d6. I got nervous and made a serious blunder and lost the game. Same applies to any opening though when you catch some one off guard they are more likely to be hurt than if you play somthing there familiar with. Common Sense. My friend NN in a few games later let me play the same line again only this time he was ready with some home analysis and we had a slightly better for white game going which i flagged. By no means was it lost .

paling agaisnt a computer is intstrutional. My friend atteh club NN has a very strong positional understanding he recentley took part in the michigan open and took a few expert scalps with only a 17XX rating. Im not sure what the elo equivelent of my rating is im not familiar with the system as a comparison the highest rated player in michigan one ben finegold is h high 2600. So my rating is low.

I was going to post my games on my first post but my kid borther formated the computer while i was a way for the weekend and all my database work and home preparation was lost. Now im thinking of getting a Zip drive. Maybe i can pull together a few more games with the white washed AI though. A new chance and ill be sure to plug in the gambit lined you mentioned for counter play in the center. I think that may have been one of the lines fritz tried.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Flank Master
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 11
Joined: 01/02/05
Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #13 - 01/19/05 at 06:12:14
Post Tools
Show us the game(s). Note however, most computers can be set at different levels. Beating the easy levels is certainly possible even for someone 997 Fide. At the mid strength level I would agree with alumbrado, unless someone gave the computer 1 minute and himself 2 hours and the computer couldn't use a an opening book. At above mid strength...Show us the games!!! Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
alumbrado
God Member
*****
Offline


Esse quam videri bonus
malebo

Posts: 1418
Location: London
Joined: 02/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #12 - 01/19/05 at 04:42:37
Post Tools
OK, I know about book learning - you are saying that the computer simply didn't play this line with Black any more.  That, I understand.

What I don't understand is how a player rated <1000 beats Fritz even once, let alone 3/3 ...
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tzanidakis_Michael
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 118
Location: Athens
Joined: 07/28/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #11 - 01/19/05 at 02:59:35
Post Tools
And because I always try to see both the merits and the demerits, I will say my thoughts about your move. First, this is the kind of play that it is possibly the most succesful against computers among club players, with poor positional play. And it is succesful because computers do not understand positional play nor psychology. It is here after 8.g4?!, as you correctly evaluated, that a computer would possibly play 8..Be7 for example but a human player, with a good understanding of chess, would counter-attack immediately on the centre. A good move in my opinion is 8..c5. Sacrificing a pawn for the initiative. And it is good for a couple of reasons. First it is logical and black creates constant threats gaining time. Secondly, this is exactly the kind of play that a french player askes for. 9.dxc5 is just pathetic. 9.g5 is very bad as the g5 pawn becomes very weak on the g5 square, and we must not forget the weak squares that are created by the g2-g4-g5 push. And finally, after 9.Nxc5 there are plenty of playable continuations such as 9.b6, 9.Bxg5, 9.Nc6 etc We can safely say that black has equalised and has good chances of grabing the initiative. White is not losing, but we can say that white has lost the opening-phase battle. That's not how white should play. I rest my case  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tzanidakis_Michael
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 118
Location: Athens
Joined: 07/28/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #10 - 01/19/05 at 02:25:42
Post Tools
so what's 997 equal to?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ormechea
Ex Member


Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #9 - 01/19/05 at 00:29:08
Post Tools
By the way the ratings i showed are USCF not international Cheesy
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ormechea
Ex Member


Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #8 - 01/19/05 at 00:26:30
Post Tools
HG man i want you to know another line that is played often by morozevich. gxf6?! its a great idea and if the center remains closed you may even castle kingside as the pawns tend to make a tough nut to crack.

Oh and to whoeversaid it might be premature look at a few botvinik games with an early g4 he was no fish and was a thinker of thinkers in our wonderful game.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ormechea
Ex Member


Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #7 - 01/19/05 at 00:22:41
Post Tools
To guest tom

He cant play Nxf6 because its not on d7 that old main line is not in favor so much anymore.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ormechea
Ex Member


Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #6 - 01/19/05 at 00:21:11
Post Tools
Fritz 8 learns from the games you play against it. After trying G4?! afew times agianst it it didnt have it in its opening book and tried 3 different defences all failed my attack was to quick. The counter plays isnt quite fast enough with my king still being in the center its ok. Black has a lack of queen side development. Grin meaning that if he wants to trade start counter play he has to get those pieces out and my pieces are storming down the kingside at an alarming rate. This is one of the reasons i play the sharper double eged gxf6. By the way his elo was mid 1800 and  by the way nice wise crack about the world chapionship. Just casue i took a computer out of its book doesnt mean i can take A real person out of there element as easy. Computers realy on certain algorhythms to survive. So When the Artificial Inteligence saw it was loossing in the paticular line it changed. Just like human and my friend who we will leave NN he changed his openings against me as i change to him.
            Aggressive play should not be condemed by those who havent played it  OTB. My rating btw is only a very lame 997 i am known in the club as the underated wonder. I do fine there but when i get to a tourney i choke. Its odd but i have to get over that. At the club ill give a couple 1900s a run for there money and played one expert and did ok til the endgame. My weak point. If all else agaisnt me trade every thing off and ill probley lose a won or drawn ending.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
alumbrado
God Member
*****
Offline


Esse quam videri bonus
malebo

Posts: 1418
Location: London
Joined: 02/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #5 - 01/18/05 at 19:08:37
Post Tools
Even assuming you mean 6.Bxf6, I simply don't believe that *anybody* beats Fritz 3/3 from that position. If so, and it was in normal playing mode, you should consider a shot at the World Championship (FIDE or any other that takes your fancy).

I also do not understand the comment that "its ai" then "did not let" you play that move.  What?!  What did it do?!

I seriously doubt that this move causes Black any real problems (the bishop often drops back to e7 in any case, so to spend two moves playing g2-g4-g5 seems a little extravagant!), but in any case it can be easily circumvented by the move order 7...Nd7! ^ 8.g4?! c5!
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2295
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #4 - 01/18/05 at 17:48:45
Post Tools
I presume it has to be 6 Bxf6.  Else: 6 Nxf6 Bxf6 7 Nf3?? Bxg5.

8 g4 looks as though it might cause Black some difficulty if s/he is not careful, but it does seem a bit premature since Black should be able to counterattack in the middle.  Nevertheless, it probably warrants some consideration, since White's attack can be quite dangerous.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tzanidakis_Michael
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 118
Location: Athens
Joined: 07/28/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #3 - 01/18/05 at 16:29:04
Post Tools
hehe Yesterday I played against a player in the club and his phone rang. The team captain told me that according to FIDE I won but I told him that cause of fair play I wanted to continue. Later on a watcher told my opponent that he forgot to press his clock ( I had 2 mins on my clock and he had 20 mins). He pressed it and that was illegal cause it was actually his turn to play! I said ok no prob. I had a won position and I expected him to resign just from good spormanship but he waited for my flag to drop. He won on time. What can I say?

P.S. sorry about that irrelevant answer  Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GuestTom
Guest


Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #2 - 01/18/05 at 15:04:32
Post Tools
He resigned because the telephone rang Wink
6.Nxf6 not 6.Bxf6?

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tzanidakis_Michael
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 118
Location: Athens
Joined: 07/28/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Burn with Bxf6
Reply #1 - 01/18/05 at 14:13:56
Post Tools
Please be more specific. What do you mean that he resigned after you played your move? He resigned on move 8 because you played g4? I would realy like to know his ELO Smiley Cause I don't see why black cannot start attacking the centre as he has a lead in development and your king is still in the centre.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ormechea
Ex Member


C11: The Burn with Bxf6
01/18/05 at 12:46:26
Post Tools
I have recently been exploring some lines of the classical french and upon my home analysis i found a move in the burn which can leave black uncomfortable if he plays BxF6

1. e4 e6
2. d4 d5
3. Nc3 Nf6
4. Bg5 de
5. Nxe4 Be7
6. Nxf6 Bxf6
7. Nf3 0-0
8. G4?!

is my thrust bad. I made this move against a much higer rated player and he resighned after i played this move. I played it against Fritz 8 and beat it 3 of 3 times and then its ai would not let me play that move anymore. Is there a refuatation or is my Botvinik inspired move Sound?
« Last Edit: 08/03/11 at 20:51:59 by dom »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo