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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C00: Anti French openings (Read 13507 times)
MNb
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Re: Anti French openings
Reply #38 - 06/23/06 at 20:18:14
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Willempie wrote on 06/23/06 at 08:18:26:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/23/06 at 07:40:49:
I learned that an open position is one in which all four of the central pawns (d2, d7, e2, e7) are either traded off or can be traded off.  

With that definition almost all non-advance variations are "open". EG the rubinstein has pawns d4 vs e6 and they could be exchanged Wink


I disagree somewhat. The pawn moves d4-d5 and e6-e5 followed by exchanging are very rare in the Rubinstein.
I learned that an open position is one, in which at least three of the four central pawns are traded off. 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.cxd4 is an example and so is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.exd5 exd5 5.dxc5/5.Nf3 cxd4.
And yes, several lines of 1.d4 d5 are typical for open positions while several lines of 1.e4 e5 are very, very closed.
Anyhow, it is clear that after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 it will last long, before the position is opened: it requires the pawn moves c7-c5, f7-f6 and finally e6-e5 from Black - and according to S_F even then the position is not open yet.
  

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Willempie
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Re: Anti French openings
Reply #37 - 06/23/06 at 08:18:26
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/23/06 at 07:40:49:
I learned that an open position is one in which all four of the central pawns (d2, d7, e2, e7) are either traded off or can be traded off.  

With that definition almost all non-advance variations are "open". EG the rubinstein has pawns d4 vs e6 and they could be exchanged Wink
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Anti French openings
Reply #36 - 06/23/06 at 07:40:49
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I had ignored the conversation about Open vs Semi-Open positions.  The differences are often subtle, but it seems that there's a basic lack of agreement on what the terms mean in the first place.  

I learned that an open position is one in which all four of the central pawns (d2, d7, e2, e7) are either traded off or can be traded off.  

The French is a classic example of a "semi-open" game, as Karpov aptly showed in his book, The Semi-Open game in Action.  White's game is usually fairly "fluid", but doesn't have many good targets unless he opens lines against Black.  Black often waits for those lines to be opened and builds up a counterattack.  One of the classic sacrificial themes for Black in the French is to sac a rook for knight on f3 in order to win the White d4 pawn.   Even then, the position isn't fully open because Black usually has a d5 and e6 pawn.  

I don't know of any major variation in the French that is truly fully open.  In fact, play in the French is often more closed than any other major response to 1.e4 (that includes many lines of the Caro-Kann).  As John Watson has pointed out, White's strategy is to attack both the head and base of Black's pawn chain while Black does the same.  What usually happens is the opening of some lines, but not nearly in the same way that 1.e4 e5 players are used too.

Remember, even in the most closed QGD positions, some lines are opened.  If they aren't, the positions are in danger of suffocating to a draw death.
  
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Re: Anti French openings
Reply #35 - 06/20/06 at 14:06:19
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French2006 wrote on 06/16/06 at 06:47:29:
Well, first of all, why is the Tarasch with 3...Nf6 is open type of position? Even if black plays ....f6 at some point ( and lets not forget , he doest have to do it!) and white takes ef, how is this pawn structure open?


Believe me I tried to make exactly that point right out when this thread was first getting going - look at page 1 and you will see ...
  

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Re: Anti French openings
Reply #34 - 06/16/06 at 06:47:29
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Well, first of all, why is the Tarasch with 3...Nf6 is open type of position? Even if black plays ....f6 at some point ( and lets not forget , he doest have to do it!) and white takes ef, how is this pawn structure open? Black doesnt have to play for e5, he can play along f-file as someone mentioned. In addition Black can take on f6 with a queen, and play for Rd8, Nf8, Bd7-e8-g6(h5). maybe theoretically white is doing fine in this line , but in practice I have a big plus as black. I dissagre with the statement that the Tarasch is the most annoying line for black to play against. For me it is the most enjoyable! The hardest line is 3.Nc3! with 7.Qg4 against 4....Bb4, or 4.Bg5 followed by 5.h4 against 3...Nf6. What can I say about all antifrench lines? Theory there has room for improovement for both  white and black. However, I think, it is in general very difficult to beat an experienced french player in those lines ( even if he is not well prepared ) As a french player I face those lines a lot. I dont know much about them, however , I win against them far more often then against "normal" lines. So, my advice to you is: dont look for an easy way, learn one of the main lines, and good luck Smiley.
  
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Re: Anti French openings
Reply #33 - 06/15/06 at 18:33:08
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When I started branching out from the French, I learned the Caro-Kann and the Sicilian Taimanov.  The Taimanov is one of the most difficult strategic openings to play as Black, and may even be objectively unsound.  At least Taimanov thought so. 

However, by having extra weapons in your arsenal, you can play whatever White throws at you and transpose into lines you know or take advantage of a less aggressive system if that's how White wants to play it.

Personally, I think the best Anti French system is 1.d4 e6 2.c4  Smiley
  
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Re: Anti French openings
Reply #32 - 06/15/06 at 08:04:28
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castlerock wrote on 06/15/06 at 05:08:16:
Yes. But, Inn2 thinks they work at lower levels and it is true. How many French players of this category will be aware of e6 based Sicilian defense?

However, MNb, you kept me thinking. Perhaps it pays for a French player to learn Taimanov or Paulsen.

Dont know about others, but against known exchange players I always open with the sicilian to either transpose to a french structure (especially if the play c3-sicilians) or go for a Taimanov setup (following the Semkov book)
  

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Re: Anti French openings
Reply #31 - 06/15/06 at 05:08:16
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MNb wrote on 02/18/05 at 15:28:09:
The French Wing gambit has the same objection as the Réti Gambit 2.b3 and a few others: Black can transpose to the Sicilian with 2...c5.


Yes. But, Inn2 thinks they work at lower levels and it is true. How many French players of this category will be aware of e6 based Sicilian defense?

However, MNb, you kept me thinking. Perhaps it pays for a French player to learn Taimanov or Paulsen.
  

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Re: Anti French openings
Reply #30 - 06/15/06 at 01:15:25
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You may be interested to know that there is more on this at http://www.jackalattack.com
  
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Re: Anti French openings
Reply #29 - 03/24/05 at 03:39:21
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Voprak, the move 3...d4 is exactly what the Van Geet (or Dunst or Sleipnir) player is hoping for, especially after Black has made it impossible for himself to put his bisshop on e6...
  
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MNb
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Re: Anti French openings
Reply #28 - 02/18/05 at 15:28:09
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The French Wing gambit has the same objection as the Réti Gambit 2.b3 and a few others: Black can transpose to the Sicilian with 2...c5.
  

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Re: Anti French openings
Reply #27 - 02/18/05 at 09:10:29
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Hi Dutch Kalashnikov!

Can You show us a game or yours to explain your ideas?

Thanks

  
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Dutch-Kalashnikov
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Re: Anti French openings
Reply #26 - 02/18/05 at 09:04:22
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@Inn2

beside the fact, that I have to move the Q somewhere else, for example to f2 (and therefore lose a tempo), I dont see a reason, why the bishop must be exactly on g2. Why not on e2 or d3?
  
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Re: Anti French openings
Reply #25 - 02/18/05 at 03:20:18
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Quote:
Cant say that facing the French is frustrating for me.

Especially not, since I play 2.Qe2, I score fine with it.
I play it without g-Fianchetto and get most times exactly the position I am used to as a Vienna game and Grandprixattack-player (setups with e4+f4+d3+Nc3 and a kingside attack).
The only disadvantage: I lose a tempo in getting the queen out of the way. But at a level below 2000 this one tempo-loss is always worth it, compared with the advantage, that I get my pet-position and the frenchies are rather confused Cheesy.


Forgive my ignorance of 2. Qe2 theory, but to play it without a k-side fianchetto seems odd.

nobody mentions the French Wing gambit. Watson doubts it (as can be expected from him), and maybe it's even objectively unsound. But from Jeroen Bosch's NIC articles this looks like a decent practical choice, especially at lower levels. At the very least, Black is prevented from going into autopilot with Nc6/Qb6 etc pounding the d-pawn.
  
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Dutch-Kalashnikov
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Re: Anti French openings
Reply #24 - 02/18/05 at 02:57:51
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Cant say that facing the French is frustrating for me.

Especially not, since I play 2.Qe2, I score fine with it.
I play it without g-Fianchetto and get most times exactly the position I am used to as a Vienna game and Grandprixattack-player (setups with e4+f4+d3+Nc3 and a kingside attack).
The only disadvantage: I lose a tempo in getting the queen out of the way. But at a level below 2000 this one tempo-loss is always worth it, compared with the advantage, that I get my pet-position and the frenchies are rather confused Cheesy.
  
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