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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C00: French Wing Gambit (Read 4506 times)
Klick
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Re: French Wing Gambit
Reply #17 - 11/12/05 at 16:42:25
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I find 3....a5 suspect. White could go for Milner-Barry-play, when ...a5 hardly is the best way to spend a move.
  

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FightingDragon
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Re: French Wing Gambit
Reply #16 - 04/16/05 at 18:07:19
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While 3. ... a5 might be an interesting idea aimed at frustrating the Wing Gambit player, I doubt that black has a chance to reach equality after 4.d4 with an Advance Variation where black has just wasted a tempo (if white chooses the right line).
I think that psychology in chess has an impact which is quite underestimated, so if black suceeds in frustrating white with 3. ... a5, it is worth a try.
But any strong player would be glad to see a5 and get a good position.
Paul Cumbers idea of 2.a3!? seems to be interesting, but in another way it is less flexible than 2. Nf3 if black reacts in  another way, for example 2. ... c5 (which transposes to Bezgodov's variations), 2. ... Nf6 or 2. ... Nc6!?
  
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Re: French Wing Gambit
Reply #15 - 04/16/05 at 07:09:23
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Yes, I certainly agree that ...a5 is a more useful move in the advance French, than the Sicilian, since it is often played there anyway at some point.  Maybe it's not as bad as I initially thought, so maybe white's best is to play normally.  In that case, it is a good idea, though I think you're right about the Milner Barry being something to watch out for.  I don't know much about the French, but I think ...a5 might be more of a disadvantage there. White may actually have more than full compensation with a tempo and the weakness created by ...a5.  It certainly is a dangerous line.  Hmm, well if it works okay, it is very clever...

To answer your original question, I think the rarity lies in the clever thinking behing the move.  After 1.e4 c5 2.a3, black is taken off guard and responds reflexively to provocation.  After 1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e5, to the unaware player, there is no suggestion of a wing gambit.  And the player who has the hindsight to consider this possibility, probably has something else prepared that he would rather play anyway.
  

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Re: French Wing Gambit
Reply #14 - 04/16/05 at 05:56:19
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So how come the dubious ...a5 is not uncommon in a sicilian wing gambit, when it's very rare in the french (couldnt find a single game with 3...a5 in my database) despite not being as weakening there?

The modern advance variation seems to include ...a5 as one of the main lines, and since black hasn't weakened b5  completely yet, there should be alternatives to a quick c7-c5. For example b6 and Ba6.

And I'm not so sure a4 is to be feared, after all white weakens b4 too and as the c-file opens after ...cd4 cd4 black may actually be quicker in exploiting the c-file with a quick Bd7, Nc6, Rc8, N/Bb4.

Wing gambiteers would probably be likely to aim for a Milner Barry gambit since ...a5 is a small concession in solidity if black accepts the sac - but still playable for black.

Making white play a main line instead of his prepared off-beat fun seems like a good argument for black to me...

Anyway, against Paul's idea of 2.a3 preparing b4, I think 3...a5 may be an especially annoying reply!
  
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Re: French Wing Gambit
Reply #13 - 04/16/05 at 05:26:21
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Though surely this is a small victory for white as he is no way committed to the Wing Gambit and can play a favorable advance French where black is committed to ...a5.  In the Sicilian, 1.e4 c5 2.a3 a5? is a terrible positional move, and I am inclined towards the feeling that normal development with ...c5 in the French would be more difficult once black is committed to ...a5.  For instance, a4 might cause problems at an early stage.
  

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Re: French Wing Gambit
Reply #12 - 04/16/05 at 04:45:20
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Just a thought: How come black hasn't tried (1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e5) 3...a5 - in the van Duijn / Bezgodov SI 2...a5?! is played about 5% of the time - in my playchessgames at least, but in the french with a closed centre, doesnt ...a5 stop white's intentions at the door?
  
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Re: French Wing Gambit
Reply #11 - 04/15/05 at 19:02:57
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There's another thread on the b4 wing gambit here:

http://altmax.com/cgi-local/cpf/YaBB.cgi?board=2-French;action=display;num=10593...

where I also looked at 2.a3!? d5 3.e5 c5 4.b4!?.

In the French 2.f4 thread I briefly mentioned 2.f4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.b4!?:

http://altmax.com/cgi-local/cpf/YaBB.cgi?board=2-French;action=display;num=10511...

What do you think to these closely related ideas?
  
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Fernando Semprun
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Re: French Wing Gambit
Reply #10 - 04/12/05 at 16:00:04
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Thanks! I conveniently forgot I had already considered this idea, but your explanations help a lot.

The precise moves seem to matter in this particular position. Thanks again
  

Fernando Semprun
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Re: French Wing Gambit
Reply #9 - 04/12/05 at 06:27:11
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Fernando Semprun: 5...Qa5! see my last post above.
  

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Re: French Wing Gambit
Reply #8 - 04/12/05 at 05:16:47
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Is there something wrong with 1 e4 e6 2 Nf3 d5 3 e5 c5 4 b4 c4? After all there is no pawn on d4 yet, and advances with b5 and a5 look quite good to me.
  

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Fernando Semprun
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Re: French Wing Gambit
Reply #7 - 04/12/05 at 03:47:34
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Funny, I have faced this gambit as black (or a similar beast) after

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.b4.

My usual automatic response was

3...cb4 4.d4 d5 (Is this best - I wonder) and after

5. e5 with the usual Bd3, a3 plan, I find white's chances on the kingside frightening...

I have not come across a convincing refutation, although I have faced this gambit only once OTB (on ICC more often), so nothing to loose sleep about...
  

Fernando Semprun
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Re: French Wing Gambit
Reply #6 - 04/11/05 at 21:13:34
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Did I chase everyone away with my extensive last post?  Cry
Or is just nobody interested in a discussion about the Wing Gambit?
I am looking forward to your replies!
  
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Re: French Wing Gambit
Reply #5 - 04/06/05 at 20:22:32
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So far there have been some intersting responses, I look forward to a great discussion!  Cheesy
Against 1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 c5!? I am not unhappy because I either play the Open Sicilian or sidelines like 3.b3 or 3.c3.
After 1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e5 c5 4.b4 cb4: then 5.a3! seems the only playable move as Bosch shows in his article about the Wing Gambit.
5. ... d4!? is indeed quite a tough nut to crack (in terms of playing for a win). I think that black is already better after 6.ab4:?!, so I would head for 6.Bb2 Nc6.
I would not call it a forced draw, if white doesn't want to take any risks and is satisfied with a draw, he may play 7.Bb5 Bd7   
8.Qe2 which looks good but with accurate play black can draw. So if white wants to fight for an advantage, he should either try 8.0-0 ba3: 9.Ba3:!?, which results in an unclear position, but I don't believe that much in the white position.
From my point of view a better try would be 7.Bd3 when white doesn't immediately try to win back the pawn and instead focuses on quick development, which should give sufficent compensation (I liked the white position in Gajewski-Szromba,2001).
Concerning Inn2's suggestion, I'm not 100% sure what you mean but I think my guess might be right.
After 1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e5 c5 4.b4 cb4: 5.a3 Nc6 6.ab4: Bb4: 7.c3 Be7 8.d4 f6!? (Last time at the bookstall I spotted "Play the French 3" and was quite curious what Watson advocated against the Wing Gambit  Wink) 9.Bd3 fe5:
10.de5:! (it is important not to trade pieces because this makes development harder for black, who has less space and not so many good squares for his pieces) Qc7.
Now Watson only gives the weak 11.0-0? Ne5: 12.Ne5: Qe5: 13.Re1 Qc7 14.Bb5+ Kf7 -/+ when white lacks sufficent compensation for 2 pawns (Hamed-Garma, Novi Sad Ol 1990).
So white should either play 11.Qe2 Bd7 12.0-0 (12.Na3? Nd4!!) with very good compensation, it's not easy for black to finish his development or 11.Bf4!?.
It is very interesting how Salmensuu plays this type of position (though he only encountered 10. ... Nh6), he has 3,5/4 with white.
And with the "legions of French players" you're also right, guess how many times I had that in online blitz?  Roll Eyes
And finally I come to losetowin's suggestion.
4. ... b6 is a sensible idea, black accepts a slightly worse position, but at least he won't come under heavy attack very soon. Perhaps from a practical point of view this is most sensible, as the occuring positions might be to the taste of most French players.
But I wouldn't be unhappy either after 5.c3! Qd7 (5. ... Ba6?? blacks main idea doesn't work immediatly 6.Ba6: Na6: 7.Qa4+) 6.a3 Ba6 7.Ba6: Na6: 8.d4 += when white can claim a slight edge.
Hope this wasn't too long!
  
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Re: French Wing Gambit
Reply #4 - 04/06/05 at 15:49:11
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I suggest 1 e4 e6 2 Nf3 d5 3 e5 c5 4 b4 b6!? as a simple solution.
With that black get a typical french position with good play. He dont grab the pawn, leaving initiative and practical chances with white, but get the game into typical " french territory". Black score very well in that line.
  
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Re: French Wing Gambit
Reply #3 - 04/05/05 at 12:02:35
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of course you have got to face the legions of french players who use watson's play the french. He recommends an early f6 to remove the e5 pawn. White has a bit of activity after exf6 but in a 2 hour game OTB it's doubtful if this is enough.
  
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