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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Ragozin QGD (Read 9477 times)
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #31 - 03/18/11 at 12:39:51
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Interesting is that this lines, Ragozin&Viena are covered in old Panov Opening manuals.
  

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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #30 - 08/25/07 at 03:26:59
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Here you go..
hopefully Ruslan gets about covering this game. But i'm sure it'll make it to Informator/NIC sooner or later.

Van Wely-M.Carlsen Biel 2007
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.Bg5 O-O 6.e3 c5 7.cxd5
exd5 8.Bd3 c4 9.Bc2 Nbd7 10.O-O Qa5 11.Rc1 Bxc3 12.bxc3 Ne4
13.Bb1 Re8 14.Bf4 Nb6 15.Ne5 f6 16.Qh5 Be6 17.f3 fxe5 18.Bxe5
Bf7 19.Qh3 Nf6 20.Bxf6 gxf6 21.Qh6 Bg6 22.Bxg6 hxg6 23.Qxg6+
Kf8 24.Qxf6+ Kg8 25.Qg6+ Kf8 26.Qf6+ Kg8 27.e4 Qb5 28.Qg6+ Kf8
29.Qf6+ Kg8 30.Qg6+ Kf8 31.e5 Qc6 32.Qf5+ Ke7 33.Qh7+ Kd8
34.f4 Qd7 35.Qxd7+ Kxd7 36.g4 Rg8 37.h3 Na4 38.Kg2 b5 39.Kg3
a5 40.a3 b4 41.cxb4 axb4 42.axb4 Nb2 43.Rc3 Nd3 44.b5 Rgb8
45.Rb1 Ra5 46.f5 Raxb5 47.Rxb5 Rxb5 48.e6+ Ke7 49.Ra3 Rb7
50.g5 Nb4 51.Re3 Nc6 52.f6+ Kd6 53.Kg4 c3 54.e7 c2 55.Rc3 Rb8
56.Rxc2 Nxd4 57.Rb2 Rc8 58.g6 Ne6 59.Rb6+ Kd7 60.Rb7+ 1-0
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #29 - 08/24/07 at 20:59:37
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Inn,

Thanks for the information.  Do you have a copy of the game?  I don't know it off-hand.

Cheers!
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #28 - 08/24/07 at 17:27:25
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latest CBM 119 contains interesting survey by Evgeny Postny on the Ragozin. Good coverage of the 7. Rc1 stuff where Black is apparently doing okay in Morozevich-Movsesian Bosna 2007, but i'm not convinced by Postny's rather scant coverage of 7. e3 c5 8. Bd3 c4 9. Bc2 Nbd7 10. 0-0 Qa5 11. Rc1 Bxc3 12. bxc3 (as in recent Van Wely-Carlsen). a part of me suspects that White's extra centre pawn and two bishops should amount to something...
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #27 - 08/24/07 at 02:04:41
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EricTheRed, in the absence of any books that deal adequately with the Ragozin, you might create a database/tree of GM Aleksandrov's games. He has a very narrow repertoire and plays the Ragozin and Nimzo-Indian move order discussed in other posts almost exclusively as Black.

I think there is a lot to be said for the "heroes" approach of finding someone who plays a particular opening with almost obsessive devotion (Gleizerov, Aleksandrov, Williams, Volkov, Miezis, and of course Sveshnikov spring to mind) and building a repertoire around what he or she plays.

(BTW, Aleksandrov was Shereshevsky's most successful student and played the White side of the repertoire from The Soviet Chess Conveyor for many years.)
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #26 - 07/02/07 at 15:58:15
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MarinFan,

The entire Ragozin was considered to be bonderline refuted years ago.

Nowadays, with computer analysis available, the answers are far less clear. 

In short, I have no idea if the Ragosin is refuted.  It sounds like you prefer the Black side, so keep playing it.  You're surely strong enough to survive most of the tactics and you seem comfortable with the resulting positions.  So why not play them and keep an eye out for recent games that may show some Fritz/Rybka analysis.   If there are any specific lines you want to analyse, let us know!

Cheers!

Smiley
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #25 - 07/02/07 at 14:17:40
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Hello,

I have recently got interested in the Ragozin again. My slightly different spin on the question, is that I am interested in Nimzo-Indian type positions, and having Ragozin in my Rep will give me more chance of getting them. In UK weekend tournaments it is  quite common for 1.d4 players to "risk" following up with a later c4, if the opponent has played d5. A quite common move order is 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4, maybe influenced by "Kramnik" series of books. Looking at other people's games in tournaments it is still quite rare for these 1.d4 players to allow an Nimzo-Indian by the direct move order. I also don't much care for 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Bb4, were I feel white having d-pawn at home, is quite handy for him, even though quite a few top players seem to like this for black. White can, for example, chose to transpose to a particular line of the Qc2 Nimzo-Indian later, and in general I think it is very easy for black to give-up the bishop pair for little compensation.
                     Anyway, after all that psycho-babble my particular question is in the main-line of the Ragozin after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 5. Nc3 Bb4 6.pxp pxp 7.Bg5. Nowdays, setups with nb-d7 are mostly played, and I think they are the only ones considered in Bogdan Lalic's book. The old Portisch v Fischer game continued 7 ..h6 8.Bh4 c5 with a later Nc6 which looked more active in principal but has this line been refuted now?

Bye John S
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #24 - 06/19/07 at 21:52:51
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Which is why ErictheRed asked this question:

ErictheRed wrote on 02/20/06 at 06:22:01:
Well, one thing I'm curious about is how Black normally responds to 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5, assuming he was hoping for a Ragozin.  Now I don't think 4...Bb4 is considered all that great, but what about 4...c5 5.cxd5 cxd4?  I don't even know what this is called, but I think it's playable.

Anyway, I'd like to know how Ragozin/Vienna players face the mover order 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5.  Also, I'd love it if anyone could point me to some critical/interesting new games in the Ragozin.  As I said, I'm not a subscriber to this section, but I'm looking for something new to play against 1.d4 that's sound and not currently popular.  The Ragozin seems to fit the bill.  I can study the games on my own if someone could let me know what the currently critical lines and new ideas are.  Thanks!

  

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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #23 - 06/19/07 at 14:03:25
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MarinFan wrote on 06/19/07 at 10:05:08:
Hello,

Of course black could, but I thought the point of the thread was black wanting to play QGD type setups with Bb4, when it can be an advantage to white not having playing Nf3.

Bye John S


You are right, John. However, after 4 Nf3, White has already played the move.
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #22 - 06/19/07 at 10:05:08
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Hello,

Of course black could, but I thought the point of the thread was black wanting to play QGD type setups with Bb4, when it can be an advantage to white not having playing Nf3.

Bye John S
  
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The Ragozin QGD
Reply #21 - 06/19/07 at 03:05:56
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MarinFan wrote on 07/17/06 at 09:31:55:
Hello,

Instead of 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5, a Ragozin player can use the move order 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 then against 3. Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 Bb4, whilst against 3Nc3 Bb4 play the Nimzo-Indian were against several white tries can play the Ragozin like d5 later if wish. The young Fischer played like this a lot.
Bye John S

 
  Why can't Black avoid the whole Ragozin setup after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4 Nf3 with Be7.
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #20 - 10/21/06 at 21:42:20
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Then I have a chance to play a nimzo after all: 1.d4 Nf6 2.d4 e6! 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.e3!?  Smiley
  

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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #19 - 10/21/06 at 20:10:10
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About the Vienna var. ,there is a very interesting commented game by  GM Alexander Rianzantsev in the archive of Chess.cafe.com/Misha interview/August2006.
Otherwise it is important to know that after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bb4 5.e3 the best for black is probably to reach the main line Nimzo. Rubinstein
  

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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #18 - 10/21/06 at 04:59:46
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Unfortunately the Ragozin (and also Vienna) is under-represented in QGD literature, though these lines are regarded as fully viable nowadays. The only book that has coverage is Lalic's book on Bg5 QGDs iirc, but don't have it myself.
Best coverage on Ragozin is Ruslan's on chesspub.
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #17 - 10/21/06 at 03:27:50
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Are there any books on the Ragozin that are worth getting?  I can't think of any that really deals with this line.  For instance, Sadler's excellent QGD book and Janjgava's The Queen's Gambit and Catalan for Black both ignore it.  If I wanted to form a Nimzo/Ragozin repertoire, what resources should I use for the Ragozin part?  Thanks!
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #16 - 07/17/06 at 09:31:55
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Hello,

Instead of 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5, a Ragozin player can use the move order 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 then against 3. Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 Bb4, whilst against 3Nc3 Bb4 play the Nimzo-Indian were against several white tries can play the Ragozin like d5 later if wish. The young Fischer played like this a lot.

Bye John S
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #15 - 07/16/06 at 05:08:23
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Greetings,

alumbrado wrote on 02/21/06 at 09:45:48:
I think it is also called the Dutch-Peruvian Gambit.  Not sure why.


Although this move (4 ..., c5) was played by Steinitz against Zukertort at London in 1883, the game's continuation had nothing in common with Prins' (Dutch!) and Canal's (Peruvian!) gambit, which they analysed and played around 1950.

5 ..., Qb6 is the Canal - first played by him in a game against Tartakower in Venice, 1948.
5 ..., cd4 is the Prins.

Speaking of Crouch's book on the QGD: Bf4 - are there any plans of an revised/updated version being published?

Or should one still just get this oldish book?

Kindest regards,

James
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #14 - 03/03/06 at 20:01:16
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I'm not up to date with new ideas in the 5.Bf4 dxc4 line, but Sadler's book gives the move as being well worth attention from Black's side, quoting 6.e4 (6.e3 Nd5! 7.Bxc4 Nxf4 8.exf4 Nc6 'is fine for Black according to Crouch, who suggests 6.Qa4+!? as White's best try for an advantage') 6...b5! 7.Nxb5 Bb4+ 8.Bd2 Bxd2+ 9.Nxd2 a6 10.Nc3 Qxd4 11. Nxc4 Qxd1+ 12.Rxd1 Nc6 'with maybe a slightly better ending for White according to Crouch, but Black has counter-chances'.

Personally I dislike facing 5.Bf4 more so than anything else in the QGD.  I'm currently looking at other defences to 1.d4 than my QGD, as I want to try something different to expand my horizons, but also I was suffering in the Bf4 line - I looked at Kasparov's QGD DVD and just couldn't see any way to play the variation that I liked.  Then there was the Catalan.....  Undecided Still,  too far off topic now...
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #13 - 03/03/06 at 17:43:44
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@Inn2:  It's off topic, but didn't Colin Crouch recommend an immediate 5. Bf4 dxc4 in his book a few years ago?  He didn't offer a lot of analysis on that line, but he seemed to imply that Black equalizes without mnay problems.  Are there new ideas here?
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #12 - 03/03/06 at 15:36:47
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lnn2 wrote on 03/03/06 at 15:22:48:
I agree the problem is to reach the Ragozin in the first place. There's no strong independent line for Black after 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5, and 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bg5 (Palliser) is becoming more common too. The main purpose of the Ragozin (and also the Vienna) is, I think, to avoid 5. Bf4, which appears to score well for White nowadays.


Well, it is also an option for the would-be Nimzo player when White avoids 3.Nc3 (eg. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 Bb4) or plays a Réti move order to reach the Queen's Gambit (eg. 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 e6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Nc3 Bb4 or 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.d4 Bb4).  In fact, there are many plausible ways to reach the Ragozin.
  

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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #11 - 03/03/06 at 15:22:48
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hello, recently looked at Ragozin/Vienna as preparation for White side (I play 5. Bf4), Ruslan's articles are excellent, and confirms my view that these lines are underrated (though i'm sure White should prove an edge if he's very well-prepared). when first started out in chess, i thought early ...Bb4 in QGD is on principle "wrong" because of Qa4+ then Nc6 is not convenient for Black. now of course realised its not so simple.

I agree the problem is to reach the Ragozin in the first place. There's no strong independent line for Black after 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5, and 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bg5 (Palliser) is becoming more common too. The main purpose of the Ragozin (and also the Vienna) is, I think, to avoid 5. Bf4, which appears to score well for White nowadays.

iirc there is a good article by a Russian GM on the Dutch- Peruvian on Chessville.
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #10 - 02/23/06 at 04:25:45
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I think White can benefit from not having played the Knight to f3.  For instance, 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.e3 Nbd7 6.cxd5 exd5 7.Bd3, and White has an improved version of the Westphalia Defence, i.e. 7...c5 8.Nge2! and White's pieces are ideally situated for pushing through in the center (the knight on e2 covers his companion on c3 in case of ...Qa5 and doesn't block the f-pawn). 

White could also just play 5.cxd5 right away, which would probably transpose to the line above.  Anything else and Black just has a bad version of the Exchange, I think; what's the Bishop doing on b4?  Right??
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #9 - 02/22/06 at 23:56:06
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After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5, why don't you want to play Bb4?
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #8 - 02/21/06 at 15:13:03
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The Dutch-Peruvian Gambit runs 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 c5 5.cxd5 Qb6.  I'm not sure what 5...dxc4 is called, but it doesn't matter.

Thanks for the replies guys, but can anyone point me to some theoretically relevant games played in the past few years??  Specifically on the Ragozin, but also on some of Black's tries to avoid the Orthodox after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5.
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #7 - 02/21/06 at 13:53:38
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That Peruvian thing rings a bell - Bogdan Lalic wrote a book on the Bg5 Systems of the QGD in about 2000/2001 which covered it and had some decent space allotted to both the Ragozin and Vienna.
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #6 - 02/21/06 at 09:45:48
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I think it is also called the Dutch-Peruvian Gambit.  Not sure why.
  

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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #5 - 02/21/06 at 02:29:09
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"but what about 4...c5 5.cxd5 cxd4?  I don't even know what this is called, but I think it's playable."
Taimanov calls this the Dutch Variation, because Lodewijk Prins has introduced it. T thinks White is better after 6.Qxd4 Be7 7.e4! Nc6 8.Qd2 and 8.Qe3 Nb4 9.Bb5+ Bd7 10.Qe2.
  

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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #4 - 02/20/06 at 06:45:56
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It is playable. But, I think we can white can enter Catalan or Semi Tarrasch in quite a few move order. I feel in almost all these cases c and d files will be fully open and the position would be dead equal. That’s not some thing we would like to get after setting out to seek Ragozin! I’ll post some lines later in the day.
  

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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #3 - 02/20/06 at 06:22:01
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Well, one thing I'm curious about is how Black normally responds to 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5, assuming he was hoping for a Ragozin.  Now I don't think 4...Bb4 is considered all that great, but what about 4...c5 5.cxd5 cxd4?  I don't even know what this is called, but I think it's playable.

Anyway, I'd like to know how Ragozin/Vienna players face the mover order 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5.  Also, I'd love it if anyone could point me to some critical/interesting new games in the Ragozin.  As I said, I'm not a subscriber to this section, but I'm looking for something new to play against 1.d4 that's sound and not currently popular.  The Ragozin seems to fit the bill.  I can study the games on my own if someone could let me know what the currently critical lines and new ideas are.  Thanks!
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #2 - 02/20/06 at 05:59:35
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Yes. I read those updates. Perhaps, it did not cover everything as you say. I don’t know. But, I thought it is pretty much sufficient to approach the line with confidence. If you have anything specific we can probably take it forward with reference to the updates and other materials.
  

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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #1 - 02/19/06 at 23:14:13
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I would suggest subscribing to the 1.d4 d5 section.  A few months back there was a couple of theory articles about the Ragozin (probably about 10 modern games analyzed).  It didn't cover everything, but I thought it was very good in what it did cover.  Did anybody else read over these games?  I really don't know much about these positions.  I just like the fact that Black is trying to take the initiative from the get go.   I'd like to hear from someone who knows what they are talking about.  Oh yes, and there was another special on the Vienna variation too!
  
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The Ragozin QGD
02/19/06 at 21:14:25
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You know, I like these forums a lot, but there doen't seem to be a great deal of variety of openings discussed (for instance, here it's mainly Slavs).  Anyway, I'd like to know if there're any new ideas (past 10 years or so) in the Ragozin variation of the QGD.  I used to play the "Westphalia Defense" years ago: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bb4 5.Bg5 Nbd7, but other fifth moves are playable.  I don't personally like the "Vienna"-like variations where Black plays ...dxc4, but these variations are fully playable and largely neglected these days.  Are there any books out there covering them?  Any recent updates (I'm not a subscriber to this section)?  Any new ideas?
  
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