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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Ragozin QGD (Read 33143 times)
MarinFan
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #16 - 07/17/06 at 08:31:55
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Hello,

Instead of 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5, a Ragozin player can use the move order 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 then against 3. Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 Bb4, whilst against 3Nc3 Bb4 play the Nimzo-Indian were against several white tries can play the Ragozin like d5 later if wish. The young Fischer played like this a lot.

Bye John S
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #15 - 07/16/06 at 04:08:23
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Greetings,

alumbrado wrote on 02/21/06 at 09:45:48:
I think it is also called the Dutch-Peruvian Gambit.  Not sure why.


Although this move (4 ..., c5) was played by Steinitz against Zukertort at London in 1883, the game's continuation had nothing in common with Prins' (Dutch!) and Canal's (Peruvian!) gambit, which they analysed and played around 1950.

5 ..., Qb6 is the Canal - first played by him in a game against Tartakower in Venice, 1948.
5 ..., cd4 is the Prins.

Speaking of Crouch's book on the QGD: Bf4 - are there any plans of an revised/updated version being published?

Or should one still just get this oldish book?

Kindest regards,

James
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #14 - 03/03/06 at 20:01:16
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I'm not up to date with new ideas in the 5.Bf4 dxc4 line, but Sadler's book gives the move as being well worth attention from Black's side, quoting 6.e4 (6.e3 Nd5! 7.Bxc4 Nxf4 8.exf4 Nc6 'is fine for Black according to Crouch, who suggests 6.Qa4+!? as White's best try for an advantage') 6...b5! 7.Nxb5 Bb4+ 8.Bd2 Bxd2+ 9.Nxd2 a6 10.Nc3 Qxd4 11. Nxc4 Qxd1+ 12.Rxd1 Nc6 'with maybe a slightly better ending for White according to Crouch, but Black has counter-chances'.

Personally I dislike facing 5.Bf4 more so than anything else in the QGD.  I'm currently looking at other defences to 1.d4 than my QGD, as I want to try something different to expand my horizons, but also I was suffering in the Bf4 line - I looked at Kasparov's QGD DVD and just couldn't see any way to play the variation that I liked.  Then there was the Catalan.....  Undecided Still,  too far off topic now...
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #13 - 03/03/06 at 17:43:44
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@Inn2:  It's off topic, but didn't Colin Crouch recommend an immediate 5. Bf4 dxc4 in his book a few years ago?  He didn't offer a lot of analysis on that line, but he seemed to imply that Black equalizes without mnay problems.  Are there new ideas here?
  
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alumbrado
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #12 - 03/03/06 at 15:36:47
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lnn2 wrote on 03/03/06 at 15:22:48:
I agree the problem is to reach the Ragozin in the first place. There's no strong independent line for Black after 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5, and 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bg5 (Palliser) is becoming more common too. The main purpose of the Ragozin (and also the Vienna) is, I think, to avoid 5. Bf4, which appears to score well for White nowadays.


Well, it is also an option for the would-be Nimzo player when White avoids 3.Nc3 (eg. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 Bb4) or plays a Réti move order to reach the Queen's Gambit (eg. 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 e6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Nc3 Bb4 or 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.d4 Bb4).  In fact, there are many plausible ways to reach the Ragozin.
  

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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #11 - 03/03/06 at 15:22:48
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hello, recently looked at Ragozin/Vienna as preparation for White side (I play 5. Bf4), Ruslan's articles are excellent, and confirms my view that these lines are underrated (though i'm sure White should prove an edge if he's very well-prepared). when first started out in chess, i thought early ...Bb4 in QGD is on principle "wrong" because of Qa4+ then Nc6 is not convenient for Black. now of course realised its not so simple.

I agree the problem is to reach the Ragozin in the first place. There's no strong independent line for Black after 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5, and 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bg5 (Palliser) is becoming more common too. The main purpose of the Ragozin (and also the Vienna) is, I think, to avoid 5. Bf4, which appears to score well for White nowadays.

iirc there is a good article by a Russian GM on the Dutch- Peruvian on Chessville.
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #10 - 02/23/06 at 04:25:45
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I think White can benefit from not having played the Knight to f3.  For instance, 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.e3 Nbd7 6.cxd5 exd5 7.Bd3, and White has an improved version of the Westphalia Defence, i.e. 7...c5 8.Nge2! and White's pieces are ideally situated for pushing through in the center (the knight on e2 covers his companion on c3 in case of ...Qa5 and doesn't block the f-pawn). 

White could also just play 5.cxd5 right away, which would probably transpose to the line above.  Anything else and Black just has a bad version of the Exchange, I think; what's the Bishop doing on b4?  Right??
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #9 - 02/22/06 at 23:56:06
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After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5, why don't you want to play Bb4?
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #8 - 02/21/06 at 15:13:03
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The Dutch-Peruvian Gambit runs 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 c5 5.cxd5 Qb6.  I'm not sure what 5...dxc4 is called, but it doesn't matter.

Thanks for the replies guys, but can anyone point me to some theoretically relevant games played in the past few years??  Specifically on the Ragozin, but also on some of Black's tries to avoid the Orthodox after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5.
  
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #7 - 02/21/06 at 13:53:38
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That Peruvian thing rings a bell - Bogdan Lalic wrote a book on the Bg5 Systems of the QGD in about 2000/2001 which covered it and had some decent space allotted to both the Ragozin and Vienna.
  
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alumbrado
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #6 - 02/21/06 at 09:45:48
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I think it is also called the Dutch-Peruvian Gambit.  Not sure why.
  

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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #5 - 02/21/06 at 02:29:09
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"but what about 4...c5 5.cxd5 cxd4?  I don't even know what this is called, but I think it's playable."
Taimanov calls this the Dutch Variation, because Lodewijk Prins has introduced it. T thinks White is better after 6.Qxd4 Be7 7.e4! Nc6 8.Qd2 and 8.Qe3 Nb4 9.Bb5+ Bd7 10.Qe2.
  

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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #4 - 02/20/06 at 06:45:56
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It is playable. But, I think we can white can enter Catalan or Semi Tarrasch in quite a few move order. I feel in almost all these cases c and d files will be fully open and the position would be dead equal. That’s not some thing we would like to get after setting out to seek Ragozin! I’ll post some lines later in the day.
  

CastleRock
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ErictheRed
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #3 - 02/20/06 at 06:22:01
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Well, one thing I'm curious about is how Black normally responds to 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5, assuming he was hoping for a Ragozin.  Now I don't think 4...Bb4 is considered all that great, but what about 4...c5 5.cxd5 cxd4?  I don't even know what this is called, but I think it's playable.

Anyway, I'd like to know how Ragozin/Vienna players face the mover order 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5.  Also, I'd love it if anyone could point me to some critical/interesting new games in the Ragozin.  As I said, I'm not a subscriber to this section, but I'm looking for something new to play against 1.d4 that's sound and not currently popular.  The Ragozin seems to fit the bill.  I can study the games on my own if someone could let me know what the currently critical lines and new ideas are.  Thanks!
  
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castlerock
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Re: The Ragozin QGD
Reply #2 - 02/20/06 at 05:59:35
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Yes. I read those updates. Perhaps, it did not cover everything as you say. I don’t know. But, I thought it is pretty much sufficient to approach the line with confidence. If you have anything specific we can probably take it forward with reference to the updates and other materials.
  

CastleRock
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