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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C10: Eingorn Variation of the French (Read 14347 times)
MartinC
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Re: C10: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #49 - 02/22/13 at 09:34:49
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I think g5 is somewhat less of a theme in Nc3 positions Smiley

It isn't totally obvious that 3 Nd2 h6 followed by white delaying e5 as long as possible is so bad for black. Yes h6 may not be ideal in some of the lines but they're mostly relatively harmless to start with (say after 3 Nd2 Nf6 etc) and h6 isn't often going to be totally wasted.

Unless of course there is some concrete set up where the kingside weakness becomes a real problem.
  
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Re: C10: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #48 - 02/22/13 at 08:29:34
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I don't know with Nc3, but in the 3.Nd2,h6 line, a very good player told me some months ago that if White don't play an early e5, that move (h6) is not justified so.... not so good (a tempo wasted). And that's because I was absolutely fascinated with the chapter on that in Dangerous Weapons The French book.

If White plays standard, with e5, Bb3, Nf3, etc.... h6 has a lot of interest to me. And the vast majority of foes I will face will commit to an early e5 for sure (in moves 4 or 5). But... the thread W plays the player correctly is there.

Maybe in the 3.Nc3 line that thoughts apply also. Or not  Cheesy


Salut,
  
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Re: C10: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #47 - 02/19/13 at 14:01:24
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It seems to me that white gets a clear plus against the Eingorn variation with

3.Nc3 h6 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Bd3 Nb4 6.Bb5+

See Almasi-Berg 2007.

Black has to make a concession with either

6...c6 (taking away the c6 square for the knight) 7.Be2 (and if black continues as if white had played 6.Be2) 7...Nf6 8. e5 Ne4 9.a3 Nxc3 10.bxc3 and now with c6 blocked black has to play 10...Na6 with a very passive position.

6...Bd7 7.Bxd7+ Qxd7 8.Ne5 with a great position for white. For example 8...Qe7 9.a3 Nc6 10.Nxc6.
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #46 - 04/15/06 at 19:05:29
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Dear Castlerock,

Coming from someone who doesn't like "sweeping generalisations", your remark was a bit cheeky.
Anyway, I haven't had time to look into MNb's suggestion, but 6. ...de ; 7. Qg4 Ktf6 would my instinctive reply.

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                                                              Hubert
  
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castlerock
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #45 - 04/15/06 at 15:47:55
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1142611685/30#44 date=1145109740]
What variations are you talking about?[/quote]

Nothing specific. 7...0-0 8.Bd3 Nbc6 9.Qh5 Ng6 for example,leads to h6 in some lines. Some lines in Steinitz includes h6. The thought crossed my mind while replying. Truth to tell, didn't even bother to check whether it is reachable after 3...h6.
« Last Edit: 04/15/06 at 16:52:45 by castlerock »  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #44 - 04/15/06 at 15:02:20
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[quote author=castlerock link=1142611685/30#43 date=1145021377]3.Nc3 h6 helps only if white obliges by playing e5 after ...Bb4 or ...Nf6. This may cut out lot of options for white. Without e5 things are definitely not rosy for black.
[/quote]

What variations are you talking about?
  
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castlerock
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #43 - 04/14/06 at 14:29:37
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3.Nc3 h6 helps only if white obliges by playing e5 after ...Bb4 or ...Nf6. This may cut out lot of options for white. Without e5 things are definitely not rosy for black.

However, tweaking your move order slightly, black can float. 6...c5 7.Qg4 gives two viable options. 7...Rh7 and 7...Qa5. I analysed the personal preference of of 7...Qa5 8.Bd2 Rh7 9.exd5 cxd4 10.cxd4 Qxd5 and we have reached a position typically over estimated by computers. With queens likely to be off board, black can get into an easily defendable position. It might take another 25 moves to attain equality. But I think it is possible.

My 2c

« Last Edit: 04/14/06 at 18:04:02 by castlerock »  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #42 - 04/13/06 at 03:10:07
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But still nobody cared to react on 4.Be3 Bb4 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 dxe4 7.Qg4 +=, except Dom, who agreed. So I may conclude, that there is consensus about this?
  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #41 - 04/12/06 at 05:24:24
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Ooops, I meant 4. everytime I typed 5. in the previous note.  Sorry about that. Embarrassed
  
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MNb
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #40 - 04/12/06 at 02:36:47
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"We can all go home and discard the entire French based on that analysis."
Not really. In quite a lot of variations of the French Black solves the problem of the queen's bishop one way or another. In the line I gave I don't see it; I think that bishop on c8 will become a long term problem.
I am not sure what Smyslov_Fan means with 5.Be3 Bb4. I advocate 4.Be3 Bb4 5.a3 +=, as I have indicated a few times before.
  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #39 - 04/12/06 at 02:04:21
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MNb stated,

"White has an edge; Black still has that bishop on c8."

We can all go home and discard the entire French based on that analysis.  Hmmm.....


Anyway, I'm sure that Uberdecker will point out that after 5.Be3 Black will play 5...de4 OR 5...Bb4.  He suggested 5...Bb4 earlier, which is part of why I liked the cheeky way Kosteniuk played it (5.a3).
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #38 - 04/10/06 at 21:27:05
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3...h6 4.Be3 (I insist, that this must be White's best) Nc6 and now 5.e5 (5.Nf3 dxe4 looks satisfactory indeed) Ne7 (White will be happy after Bb4?! 6.a3 or 6.Qg4) 6.f4 Nf5 7.Bf2 and White has an edge; Black still has that bishop on c8.
  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #37 - 04/08/06 at 11:07:50
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h6 move exists in Tarrasch line: 3.Nd2 h6 and one new thread will be useful to comment all the lines. I only give: 4.Ngf3 Nf6!? 5.e5 (5.Bd3 c5 6.dxc5 Marciano-Bricard,Narbonne 1997 or 6. c3  Nevednichy-Eingorn,Bad Worishofen 2002, games given in Psakhis's Nd2 French book) Nfd7 6.c3 (6.Bd3 c5 7.c3 Nc6 Dom transposing to gambit Korchnoi where Black uses a waiting move h6) c5 7.a3 Bd7 8.Bd3 a5 9.b3 b6 10.Bb4 Na6 11.oo Nc7 12.Be2 a4 13.b4 Ba6 Vallejo Pons-Morozevich,Amber Monte Carlo 2004

  

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MNb
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #36 - 04/03/06 at 02:53:41
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@Uberdeker:
for the second time you have ignored my suggestion 4.Be3 Bb4 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 dxe4 7.Qg4 +=.

@Dom
to my amazement 3...dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nc6 5.Be3 has netted Black 3 wins, 1 draw and no losses. Still it seems to me, that h6 is not so useful here, while the extra move Nf3 is. I must take a closer look at it. It might be, that 3...h6 4.Be3 Nc6 5.Bb5 is White's best. It is all very unexplored of course.
  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #35 - 04/02/06 at 22:22:01
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dom,

I'm sorry I missed the reference in your notes to the game I saw. 

Uberdecker,

I recognise that 3...h6 is supposed to be some sort of high-class waiting move.  But I just don't buy the argument.

You make a reasonable point that Black could play 4...de4, but I don't agree that 4.a3 is *more* useless than 3...h6 in that line.  White can prepare a kingside attack with pieces and pawns while Black would have diffuculty finding a safe home on the queenside.

I will analyse dom's lines more closely, because I believe he probably has a pretty good idea of how play goes for White.  By the way, Marie Sebag lost on the White side of the French.  Was she being patriotic?  Undecided   

  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #34 - 04/02/06 at 22:13:30
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I sometimes see 3...h6 when I play the 3.Nd2 Tarrasch.  It makes no sense.  If black thinks that a move like 3...h6 makes sense, why not play it immediately in response to 1.e4?  All black is doing is trying to take white out of his French book.
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #33 - 04/02/06 at 17:58:19
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As I've already pointed out the Rubinstein treatment (4. ...de) is the logical reply and this is what I must have played against Sugartort. It's hard to be wildly enthusiastic about Black's position, but then White's is not so hot either (no Bg5 or Ktg5). The move a3 serves no purpose here.
Another waiting move of White's is 4. g3!? This too should be met by 4. ...de, a possible line running 5. Ktxe4 Bd7 ; 6. Bg2 Bc6 ; 7. Kte2 Ktf6

So you see, Smyslov Fan, the idea of 3. ...h6 is precisely this : if White plays waiting moves, Black will try to prove that these are less usefull than ...h6 in a Rubinstein-type position. If White plays more commital replies, Black reacts accordingly (4. Ktf3 Ktf6/ 4. Bd3 Ktc6/ 4. e5 c5/ 4. Be3 Bb4 etc).
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #32 - 04/02/06 at 17:38:07
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In fact, I already played 4.a3 last year against Uberdeker. Its mockery value should not be underestimated.
However, I can't say if the Kosteniuk game followed our path because I don't remember Uberdeker's treatment (it was blitz).
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #31 - 04/02/06 at 16:48:13
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I gave the starting moves of the game, few posts above:

"F) 4.a3 (recent game: Khosteniuk-Khoudgarian,women wolrd championship 2006) Nf6 5.e5 (5.Bd3 c5 6.exd5 cxd4 ; 5.Qd3 c5) Nfd7 6.f4 c5 7.Nf3 Nc6 8.Be3 a6 "
  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #30 - 04/02/06 at 14:06:21
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I don't remember which game, but 3...h6 occurred in the recent (2006) Women's FIDE KO Championships and White responded with a very early a3.  I'll try to find the game.  However, I agree with others that this line is probably not in any way theoretically critical.  White won a fairly unremarkable game. 


If you're interested, I'll try to dig it up.  But as a French player, I'd hate to be pushing h6 without a specific reason.  I don't see a good reason for such a time waster on move 3 unless 3...Nf6 4.Bg5 scares Black so much.  Then maybe Black should play 1...c5 instead. Lips Sealed
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #29 - 04/02/06 at 11:38:39
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Hello MnB,
I agree with the evaluation for b) and c) but not for a):

4..Nc6 5.Nf3 dxe4! 6.Nxe4 Nf6

A) 7.Nxf6 Qxf6 8.Bb5 (8.c3 Bd7 9.Bd3 ooo) 8.Bd6 =

B) 7.Bd3 Nb4 8.oo Nxd3 9.Qxd3 Be7

C) 7.Qd3 Nb4 8.Nxf6 Qxf6 9.Qe4 Qf5 10.Qxf5 exf5 11.Kd1 Nd5 12.Bd2 c6

and games where Black has roughly same chances as White
  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #28 - 04/02/06 at 11:25:08
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Hello Uberdeker,
The main idea for White to reply a Winawer strategy (Bb4 move) is to use Steinitz's idea of an exchange exd5.
It was known as the "refutation" of the Winawer until Nimzowitsch improves Black  strategy around 1920.
I will use precisely the classical move order to reach the position:
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 (Steinitz) exd5 5.Nf3 h6 (Paulsen-Lichtenstein,Berlin 1864 ; nowadays Ne7/Nc6/Bg4/Nf6 are the moves ... I use only this game as an example of strange move for Black) 6.Bd3 Nf6 (6..Bg4 7.h3) and here is the position reached after 3..h6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bd3 Bb4 6.exd5! (6.e5 is an interesting line leading to a gambit and need some deep analysis 6...Ne4 7.oo Nxc3 8.bxc3 Bxc3 9.Rb1 Bruzon-Arencibia,La Havanne 2004, Horvath-Borgio,Zemplinska Sirava 2004) exd5 7.oo oo 8.Ne2! (for me it's "simple chess" and I don't really trust White's Ne5/h3 as in Hautot-Legky,France N1 2005) Steinitz-Pitschel,Vienne 1873 ; Blackburne-Wood,Gread Brtiain simul 1871

About 4..Nc6!?: it's Eingorn's improvment over 4..Nf6 played earlier by Bricard. 4...Nf6. If White plays 5.e5 then it's variation given by Janev-Bricard,Toulon 1999: 5...Ne4 6.Nxe4 (6.Bd3 Bb4 is the gambit given before) dxe4 and now Black has a playable game because White must loose tempi to withdraw his knight on f3.

If White plays 5.Bd3 then it's too late for Black to play Nc6, simply because of 6.e5 attacking the knight on f6. Other moves: 5..dxe4?! (give up the center) Nxe4 ; 5...c5 6.exd5 exd5 7.oo  Stavast-Van Rin,Groningue 2003 ; 5...Be7 6.oo ; 5..Bb4 Jovanovic-Kovacevic,Zadar 2003 ; Bruzon-Arencibia,La Havanne 2004 6.exd5!

I add that exd5 is maybe the right answer in the line: 4.Bd3 Nf6 (instead of Eingorn Nc6) 5.exd5! exd5 6.Nge2 Almira Schripenko-Bricard,Montpellier 1988 (Wonderer on chesspublishing forum) or 6.Nf3
  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #27 - 04/01/06 at 22:50:22
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I still think 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 h6 4.Be3 is White's best chance for an advantage:
a)4...Nc6 5.Nf3 (5.Bb5!?) Bb4 6.e5
b)4...Nf6 5.e5
c)4...Bb4 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 dxe4 7.Qg4!?
a en c give versions of the Nimzo-Winawer (3...Bb4) and b a version of the Steinitz (3...Nf6 4.e5) that slightly favour White. Now I am certainly not claiming, that Black's idea is refuted. But I think 3...Nf6 and 3...Bb4 both are better than 3...h6.
Please tell me, if I am wrong; I do not understand that much of chess.
  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #26 - 04/01/06 at 13:51:02
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Dear Dom,

I don't understand your suggestion of 4. Ktf3 Ktc6. The whole idea of 4. Bd3 Ktc6 is to hit the unprotected -d4 pawn, coaxing White into 5. Ktf3, then chasing the Bd3 with 5. ...Ktb4 so that after 6. Be2 he can continue 6. ...Ktf6 ; 7. e5 Kte4
Now with the Kt allready on -f3, surely the logical course is 4. ...Ktf6. Now you have suggested 5. Bd3 c5 ; 6. 0-0, which looks reasonable enough for Black, but what of 5. ...Bb4  ?

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #25 - 04/01/06 at 11:04:14
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For those who likes h6 and original moves...you can use the Rozentalis's variation (name given by McDonald in one update: 10/2005) move order.

The variation is a kind of Guimard's variation and used by famous players.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3

and now

4...h6 (4...Nf6 e.e5 Ne4 is covered in another hot thread "is Nc6 playable?" ; 4...Bb4 5.e5 h6)

Maybe, i will invent the name "RBE (Rozentalis-Bricard-Eingorn)'s variation"

oo
  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #24 - 04/01/06 at 10:15:07
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Hello Mnb&Uberdeker,

Yes, maybe Bricard's variation is more appropriate than Eingorn's variation, but naming variations is difficult ("the first player playing the move ? the first strong player playing the move ? the first player building an opening system with it ?" and so on).

I add that I had the luck to listen Bricard in a training lesson in Toulouse few years ago, about the variation. He explained the ideas and one main idea is "h6 is a waiting move". Eingorn used Bricard's idea and developped later a system with in, and specially with the Nc6 move. The idea is, if White plays an "universal system", then White will not choose immediatly between closing or opening the center (e5 or exd5), then Nf3-Bd3 are the moves. But after Bd3 then Black has Nc6 hitting the bishop on d3, and if White wants to keep his very-good bishop, then one tempo must be lost.

Maybe I repeat the analyse in NiC, I don't know (because I have not read the paper about the variation).

Now, about the sub-lines...

A) Maybe it's a matter of taste, but c6 is another pawn move and White after the exchange exd5-exd5, two tempi more for the development and I clearly prefers White in such position. The idea of Bb4 is to win the good square "e4" and to develop quickly (the same idea exists in the Wiawer-exchange without h3).

B) The two-knights's variation is one sub-variation of the French where White delays the d4 pawn move. It's useful to know it for White players playing Nf3 or wanting to avoid some variations (White can choose later between the exchange or a closed game, and avoid the Winawer);
1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Nc3 two-knights variation (Taulbut) Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.d4 c5 6.dxc5 Nc6 7.Bf4 Bxc5 8.Bd3 f6! (8...h6?! an error of a world champion, since now Black is weak on light squares and cannot play f6 easily. Gufeld-Spassky-Leningrad 1960)

C) Versus Kf6, White plays the universal system Bd3...but I admit Black can play such move. Without deep analysis, I will play with White: 5.Bd3 c5 (5...Nc6 6.e5 Nfd7 7.oo and now the idea Nb4 doesn't work 7..Nb4 8.Be2 c5 9.Nb5! a6 10.Nd6+ Bxd6 11.exd6 += ; 5...dxe4 is a kind of Rubinstein with the useless(?) move h6) 6.oo.

If 4...Nc6!? 5.e5 then Black has no immediate counterplay but an easy and quick development for his pieces: Bb4-Nge7-oo. The attack against the space advantage is done later with f6 or Ng6-Nce7

E)  After 6.Qxg7 Rg8 (6...Rh7 7.Qg3 dxe4 8.Bf4) 7.Qxh6 Nxe4 8.Ne2 and I don't see Black counterplay in the center, and White now has a dangerous h pawn in the future.

F) In some lines in the Rubinstein, Black can exchange more pieces because White has played Bg5. Here, the pawn move a3 has been played, and White can keep his space advantage or control: 4..dxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Bd3 Nxe4 7.Bxe4 Nd7 8.Nf3 Nf6 9.Bd3 c5 10.Be3 or (Fort Knox's variation) 6...Bd7  7.Nf3  Bc6 8.Qe2 Bxe4 9.Bxe4 Qxe4 10.c6 oo



  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #23 - 03/27/06 at 17:02:40
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Apologies! In making my aspersions about Black's QB I had in my head the wrong position! -- namely 6 ...Nf6 7 0-0 Nd3 8 Qd3 de, etc. I think, though, that (in the right position) 10 Qe2 should be met by 10 ...Be7 (10 ...Be6 11 Qb5) 11 Qe5 0-0, the idea perhaps being that after 12 Qc7 Qc7 13 Bc7 Bg4 White can't easily make any progress since 14 Ne5 self-traps the Bishop? There's also the "computer move" 11 ...h5!?.
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #22 - 03/27/06 at 14:01:50
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A : The Q Bishop has much more scope than in many other variations of the French. And here it is unopposed.
I suppose 10. Qe2+ should be met by 10. ...Be6 and 11. Qe5 c6
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #21 - 03/27/06 at 12:06:58
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Q: Where, in Grigoriants--Cosma, do you see Black's light-squared Bishop getting deployed, I'm wondering? Also, what do you think of 10 Qe2 (idea Qe5) in this line?
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #20 - 03/27/06 at 11:46:59
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Dear Dom,

Thanks for your help. Your variations are interesting. However there are a few points which I haven't quite understood or on which I disagree :

line A) 5. Bf4 Bb4 looks a bit illogical, since the idea of 4. ed in the Winaver is precisely to demonstrate that the Bishop is misplaced on -b4 (although Black should manage to equalise without too much difficulty there). If 6. Ktb5 needs to be prevented, 5. ...c6 is probably better.

line B) What's the Two Knights' variation?

line C) 4. ...Ktf6 is the consistent move, taking advantage of White's Ktf3. 4. ...Ktc6 is met simply by 5. e5 and Black has no counterplay

line E) Again ...Ktc6 achieves little and you end up playing a Rubinstein where Be3 is probably worth more than ...h6. You imply that 4. ...Bb4 is met strongly by 5. Qg4, but 5. ...Ktf6 ;
6. Qxg7 Rg8 ; 7. Qxh6 Ktxe4 looks good for Black to me. What was your idea?

line F) Here however, the Rubinstein option 4. ...de is more attractive, since ...h6 is useful in preventing a  future Bg5 or Ktg5 and a3 serves no real purpose.

I don't think Grigoriants-Cosma is so thankless for Black. That bishop pair may come in handy at some point.

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                                                                           UD

P.S. You're right MNb, 3. ...h6 was first played by French IM Bricard, but Eingorn's treatment is generally more dynamic and he's had success with it rather a high level.
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #19 - 03/27/06 at 02:31:12
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Nice overview, Dom. But I miss 4.Be3 Bb4 (Nc6 is interesting indeed) 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 dxe4 7.Qg4!? which seems a good attempt to prove h7 a useless move.
a)7...Nf6 8.Qxg7 Rh7 9.Qg3 Nbd7 10.f3 c5 11.dxc5
b)7...Qf6 8.f3 exf3 9.Nxf3 Ne7 10.Bd3 with a big lead in development.

Why is this variation called Eingorn Variation? Bricard Variation seems to be more appropriate.
  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #18 - 03/26/06 at 23:51:58
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I suppose Grigoriants--Cosma might be OK for Black but doesn't it all look a bit thankless for him? Similarly with, in this line, 10 Qe2 which looks to win a pawn, albeit messily. Add Uberdeker's own 6 0-0!? and I'm not enthused about 3 ...h6 4 Bd3 Nc6 and would prefer to try 4 ...Bb4. But I guess this might be a question of taste ...
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #17 - 03/26/06 at 11:13:36
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Trying to help Uberdeker...
Winckelman-Reimer gambit has some ideas in common with Eingorn variation (I give only sub-variations interesting for the thread) : 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bxc3 5.bxc3 e4 6.f3  and now:

A) 6...Nd7 (Watson gives now this move as best active move ; in previous editions of Play The French his advice was b6) 7.Nh3! (7.Be3 Ngf6 8.fxe4 Nxe4 9.Qg4 Ndf6 10.Qxg7 Rg8 11.Qh6 Rg6 12.Qf4 Nxc3) Ngf6 8.fxe4 Nxe4 9.Qg4 Ndf6 10.Qh4 (10.Qxg7 Rg8 11.Qh6 Nxc3 12.Bg5 Rg6 13.Qh4 Nce4 14.Bxf6 Nxf6) Nxc3 11.Bd3 Nfe4 12.Qf4 f5 13.Be3 oo 14.oo Qd6 15.Qh4 Bd7 Tahiri-Watson,Berlin 1997 (Watson)

B)  6...e5 7.Be3 Nc6 8.Bb5 Bd7 9.d5 Nce7 10.Bxd7+ Qxd7 11.fxe4 Nf6 12.Qd3 Qg4! 13.Qb5+ Nd7 14.Kf2 Qxe4 15.c4 Qf5+ 16.Kg3 Qxc2 17. Rf1 Nf5+ 18.Rxf5 Qxf5 19.Qb7 oo 20.Nf3 Rab8 21.Qxa7 Rb2 22.Qxc7 Nf6

C) 6...Nf6 7.fxe4 (7.Be3 oo ; 7.Bg5 h6!? (Dom) or 7...Qd5! (Harding))  e5!? Buecker's idea according to Harding 8.Bg5 h6

Now, coming back to Eingorn 3...h6..

A) 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bf4 (5.Nf3 or 5.Bd3 leads to same middlegame: 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Bd3 Nf6 7.oo Be7 = ) .. Bf4 "with initiative for White" (FM David H Levin on NJ's forum) 5...Bb4 6.Nf3 (6.Qe2 Ne7 7.Qe5 Bd6 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh6 Rg6 10.Qh4 Rg4 11.Qh8 and draw) Qe7+ 7.Be2 Nf6 8.oo oo 9.Ne5 unclear

B) 4.e5 (waiting move h6 has reached his goal because White has already chosen between a closed and an opened game) c5! (best, because 4..Bb4 because of 5.Qg4 and a good Winawer for White. White can choose to transpose to normal lines with 5.Nf3 Ne7 for example 6.a3 Bxc3 7.bxc3 c5 transposes to Anand-Hertneck,Munich 1991) 5.dxc5 (or 5.f4 and White can play with same moves as in Bolesvasky, Black has used one move h6 for nothing but Black has good squares for his g8 knight) Nc6 6.Nf3 Bxc5 Bd3 looks like a 2-knights variation where Black cannot play an early f6

C) 4.Nf3 Nc6 (Eingorn) 5.Bd3 Nb4 6.Bf4 (6.Be2 dxe4 7.Bxe4 Nf6 8.Ng3 h5!?) Nxd3 7.Qxd3 Nf6 8.exd5 Nxd5 9.Nxd5 exd5 10.Ne5 Be7 and so on. Grigoriants-Cosma, Cappelle 2006

D)  4.Bd3 Nc6 5.Be3 (5.Nf3 or 5.exd5 transposes)

E) 4.Be3!? Nc6! (4...Bb4 5.Qg4! ; 4...Nf6 5.e5 ; 4...Ne7 5.Nf3 ; 4...dxe4) 5.Nf3 (5.a3 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Bd3 e5= ; 5.Bb5 dxe4 6.Nxe4 Qd5 7.Qd3 Bd7 8.c4 Qf5= ; 5.exd5 exd5 ; 5.e5 Nge7 6.Nf3 Nf5 7.Bd3 g5 or 6.Bd3 Nb4 7.Be2 c5 8.dxc5 Nf5) dxe4 6.Nxe4 Nf6 7.Nxf6 Qxf6 8.Bb5 (8.c3 Bd7 9.Bd3 ooo) Bd6=

F) 4.a3 (recent game: Khosteniuk-Khoudgarian,women wolrd championship 2006) Nf6 5.e5 (5.Bd3 c5 6.exd5 cxd4 ; 5.Qd3 c5) Nfd7 6.f4 c5 7.Nf3 Nc6 8.Be3 a6

  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #16 - 03/25/06 at 20:46:04
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The idea crossed my mind, because I compared it to the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit, which had some popularity in the past: 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 dxe4 6.f3 and here c5! is almost a refutation.
After 3.Nc3 h6 4.Be3 Bb4 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 dxe4 7.f3 it is clear, that exf3? is almost a blunder. Black's castling will be punished with Bxh6! and the extra move Be3 is very useful. So indeed moves like Nd7 and b6 will probably be critical.
If I remember a little of that W-R Gambit, White will continue with something like 7...Nd7 8.Nh3 Ngf6 9.fxe4 Nxe4 10.Qf3 Nxc3 11.Qg3. Again in such variations the extra move Be3 has merit, while I am not sure about Black's h6.
  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #15 - 03/25/06 at 18:07:10
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MNb wrote on 03/24/06 at 01:28:04:
Isn't 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 h6 4.Be3 Bb4 5.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 dxe4 6.f3 an idea? After all 3...h6 is not very useful, while 4.Be3 is.


I'm not so sure. 4.Be3 does not belong to an attacking system like BDG. Simply ignoring 6.f3 developing on the queenside can be a good idea. For example 6...Nd7. White cannot play 7.fxe4 because of 7...Qh4+ Any other move invites 7...Nf6 and white doesn't have Bg5. 3...h6 may after all be useful! Wink White doesn't seem to have adequate compensation for pawn or has to lose lot of time to regain the pawn when black should be perfectly fine.

Of course, these are preliminary impressions.
  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #14 - 03/25/06 at 13:42:07
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Dear MNb,

Didn't mean to be rude. Just expressing my first feeling when reading your post. Since the poor Eingorn Variation is coming under simultaneous cross-fire in this thread, and I'm the only one to defend it, I can't treat all lines at once.
Your suggestion is interesting, and certainly much stronger than the BDG. But my gut feeling is that you still don't have enough for the pawn. You are right, serious analysis is required here. It would be nice if someone could help me with the Black side!

                                                                                               Regards,
                                                                                                   Hubert
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #13 - 03/24/06 at 21:07:49
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"Is this Blackmar-Diemer thing going to follow me wherever I go?!"
This BDG thing follows everyone, who plays dxe4 as Black.
Txs for your serious analysis on my suggestion.  Angry
  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #12 - 03/24/06 at 14:39:57
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[quote author=Willempie link=1142611685/0#11 date=1143200111]
PS Nimzo proposed Qg4 in the advance, e4 e6 d4 d5 e5 c5 Qg4, so it cant be that bad against h6 ;)[/quote]

Dear Willempie

It is precisely because 4.Qg4 "the Overprotection Variation" was Nimzo's brainchild that I made my previous comment. His idea was Ktgf3-e1-d3 and Ktbd2-d3.

                                                 Regards,
                                                   Hubert

  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #11 - 03/24/06 at 11:35:11
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OK so now 7 a4, still dont see it, sure you get pressure on d4, but it would be really weird if that wasnt the case.
The reason I like it better on d7 is that it covers f6 and c5. With the pawn on h6, h6 itself is blocked, so an f6 break doesnt look too tempting, so only e7 is available where it often is in the way in the French.

PS Nimzo proposed Qg4 in the advance, e4 e6 d4 d5 e5 c5 Qg4, so it cant be that bad against h6 Wink
  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #10 - 03/24/06 at 11:07:35
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6. Ktf3 Qb6. The constant parallels with the Steinitz are meaningless. You consider the knight to be better placed on -d7 where it contributes nothing to the struggle for the centre and I think the knight is better off on the -e7/-f5 track. But let's imagine for a second that we agree that these squares are equally good. Then Black is a tempo up (I'm not counting ...h6 of course) in the fight for central control.
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #9 - 03/24/06 at 10:52:52
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On 5 .. Bd7 we are of course not going to play 6 Nce2, but 6 Nf3. I really fail to see what benefit h6 has in this kind of situation. Basically this is a Steinitz with a pawn on h6 and a knight on g8 iso a knight on d7. I know where I would want my knight Wink
  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #8 - 03/24/06 at 10:35:35
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Dear Willempie,

  If only things were that simple! Your Ktc3 is misplaced after 4. ...c5. If 5. f4 Bd7 ; 6. Ktce2 Bb5 ; 7. c3 Ktc6 ; 8. Ktf3 Qb6 your centre is under considerable strain. If 5. Qg4 I'm sure Nimzowitsch would agree that your Queen Knight is on the wrong track. it should be looking to overprotect -e5!

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                                                                      Hubert
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #7 - 03/24/06 at 10:24:22
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I'd just play 4 e5 making h6 looking extremely silly. Depending on black's answer you could go 5 f4 6 Nce2 or 5 Qg4 even.

I dont really see the point of h6, it is the move I find the most useless in almost any advance structure. Just last tuesday I won a game as white in the Steinitz due to this move.
  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #6 - 03/24/06 at 10:19:21
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MNb wrote on 03/24/06 at 01:28:04:
Isn't 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 h6 4.Be3 Bb4 5.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 dxe4 6.f3 an idea? After all 3...h6 is not very useful, while 4.Be3 is.


Oh my god! Is this Blackmar-Diemer thing going to follow me wherever I go?!
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #5 - 03/24/06 at 01:28:04
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Isn't 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 h6 4.Be3 Bb4 5.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3 dxe4 6.f3 an idea? After all 3...h6 is not very useful, while 4.Be3 is.
  

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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #4 - 03/23/06 at 14:00:43
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6 Bf4 has been tried twice (see ChessLive), and in both cases Black went down.

On a dead-quick butcher's I don't like Black's position after 6 0-0 either! (But it appears not to have been played.)
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #3 - 03/23/06 at 13:43:11
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[quote author=Martin Carpenter(Guest) link=1142611685/0#2 date=1143113045] 4 Be3!? might be a little annoying. It's not the move white most wants to play but it does develop something and doesn't seem to give black anything to bite on unlike 4 Bd3/Nf3.

At least 4 .. de is likely to end up a tempo or two down on a known line in the Burn variation & 4 .. Nf6 5 e5 etc is surely not very clever. The article gives 4 .. Bb4 but I'd be worried that after 5 e5 c5 and then things like 6 Qg4/dxc5 should work much better than in the Winaver proper.[/quote]
4. Be3 looks like a good move and might be my choice if I'm ever confronted with 3. ...h6 myself.
However, although I'm not very familiar with Winaver theory, it  seems to me that after 4. ...Bb4 ;
5. e5 c5 ; 6. Qg4 (as suggested by Martin) Kte7!? ; 7. Qxg7 Rg8 ; 8. Qxh6 Ktbc6 ; 9. Ktf3 Qc7 with ideas of
...cd/...Ktf5/...0-0-0 the position of White's Queen and dark-squared Bishop render his coordination worse than in the theoretical line 3. ...Bb4 ; 4. e5 c5 ; 5. Qg4 Kte7 ; 6. Qxg7 Rg8 ; 7. Qxh7
Just a blindfold thought. More learned views are welcome here.


[quote author=Michael Ayton link=1142611685/0#1 date=1143109105]
I really wouldn't want to move my light-squared Bishop unless I really had to.[/quote]
Well, that's true. You can give up your good bishop for the sake of developement, but 6. 0-0 seems like a better way to ignore Black's play.
Again pratical testing is necessary to reach conclusions here.

Actually this was the purpose of my thread. I'd like to know if there have been any developments in recent GM pratice.

                                                                               Regards,
                                                                                    Hubert
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #2 - 03/23/06 at 11:24:05
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4 Be3!? might be a little annoying. It's not the move white most wants to play but it does develop something and doesn't seem to give black anything to bite on unlike 4 Bd3/Nf3.

At least 4 .. de is likely to end up a tempo or two down on a known line in the Burn variation & 4 .. Nf6 5 e5 etc is surely not very clever. The article gives 4 .. Bb4 but I'd be worried that after 5 e5 c5 and then things like 6 Qg4/dxc5 should work much better than in the Winaver proper.
  
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Re: Eingorn Variation of the French
Reply #1 - 03/23/06 at 10:18:25
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Hi Hubert

Good to have you on board!

I'm no sort of a player, but in your first line, as White I'd be thinking, on move 6, that I really wouldn't want to move my light-squared Bishop unless I really had to. How about then 6 Bf4, keeping castling options open? I haven't yet seen a line after that that I really like/trust for Black. What do you think?

Black could always try 4 ...Bb4 after 4 Bd3 I guess, but that might be a less exciting option ...
  
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C10: Eingorn Variation of the French
03/17/06 at 16:08:05
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A couple of years ago NIC published as SOS article on the highly interesting variation 1. e4 e6 ; 2. d4 d5 ; 3. Ktc3 h6.
Black's idea is basically to tell White he's in zugzwang!
Afew samples :
-4. Bd3 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 (5. Be3 is maybe worth looking into) Ktb4 ; 6. Be2 Ktf6
-4. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 5. Bd3 (5. e5 Kte4) and now practice has seen 5. ...de?! and 5. ...Ktc6?! while Eingorn has recommended 5. ...c5!?. But the move that springs to my mind is 5. ...Bb4 and seems to hold up to analysis. Has anyone seen this played, or may it be dubbed the Uberdeker Variation?
Or in general, does anyone know how 3. ...h6 has been faring lately in practice?
Incidentaly, the article also covered the line 3; Ktd2 h6. But I don't think this is as happy a choice, since the ...h6 tempo serves no prophylactic purpose. In my opinion, better waiting moves are 3. ...a6 and 3. ...Be7

                                                                   Looking forward to your replys,
                                                                                               Hubert

« Last Edit: 08/01/11 at 19:08:42 by dom »  
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