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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) When to Play Grand Prix Attack? (Read 26374 times)
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #32 - 11/06/09 at 05:28:36
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Stigma wrote on 11/06/09 at 02:35:24:
I agree with MNb. Advantage, schmadvantage!

When to play the Grand Prix? When you have some knowledge of it, like it, and can identify it as uncomfortable to face for a particular opponent.

Even when I'm White I need an error from Black to win. So a lot of preparation is really about finding the territory where I will feel more comfortable than my opponent, thus increasing the chance of error on his/her part.



Couldn't agree more... I even play 1 e4 c5 b4! I don't think white or black gets an advantage its just = but I play it cause its my territory and on the right opponent they are uncomfortable. I also play e4 c5 c3  e4 c5 f4 and e4 c5 nf3 anything Be2 so I have plenty of antis. I try to pick the one that will annoy my opponent the most.
  
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #31 - 11/06/09 at 02:35:24
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I agree with MNb. Advantage, schmadvantage!

When to play the Grand Prix? When you have some knowledge of it, like it, and can identify it as uncomfortable to face for a particular opponent.

Even when I'm White I need an error from Black to win. So a lot of preparation is really about finding the territory where I will feel more comfortable than my opponent, thus increasing the chance of error on his/her part.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #30 - 11/06/09 at 01:59:41
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I will tell you a secret. No advantage can be found against the Najdorf either. Conclusion: 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3/2.Nf3 d6 =. That doesn't people prevent from playing this as White.
I will tell you another secret. 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.e4 a6 4.Nc3 e6 is also equal.
Correct logic would phrase: as White cannot prove an advantage anyway after 1.e4 c5 and after 1.f4 he/she should turn to another first move. That is not my logic though.
  

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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #29 - 11/05/09 at 13:13:33
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Correct logic would phrase that as : no white advantage can be found after... There's quite a gap between these two.
  
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #28 - 10/30/09 at 02:19:10
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Really? So a black advantage has been proven after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 d6 3.f4 ?
  

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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #27 - 10/29/09 at 08:45:49
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To ply back to the subject : the correct answer has been given elsewhere on this forum by Tracke. GPA only after 1.f4, c5 2.Nf3, Nc6
(3. e4, ... 4.Bb5).
  
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #26 - 10/29/09 at 01:48:34
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Mate in one.
  

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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #25 - 10/28/09 at 19:49:10
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Quote:
a good flexible waiting move


What more can a man ask for ?
  
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #24 - 10/23/09 at 14:33:53
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nyoke wrote on 10/21/09 at 21:48:37:
Yes, the O'Kelly ! I'm always surprised it isn't more popular, as it is a such an excellent way to cope with the worst anti-sicilians...



Well technically I wouldn't call the O'Kelly as you can't reach "mainline" open O'Kelly anymore nor can white play the prefered antidotes 3. c4 or 3. c3. It is in my book a good flexible waiting move. After 1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 a6 3. Nf3 you still have loads of possibilities. This also is true for the GPA and closed sicilian.
  
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #23 - 10/21/09 at 21:48:37
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Yes, the O'Kelly ! I'm always surprised it isn't more popular, as it is a such an excellent way to cope with the worst anti-sicilians...
  
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #22 - 10/21/09 at 00:08:04
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A najdorf player can also play 2.a6 (as suggested by R. Palliser).
See his book Fighting Anti-Sicilians 2007.
  
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #21 - 10/01/09 at 20:49:49
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No problem ! If you've read the hitchhiker's guide to hell (by one D. Alighieri) you will remember that the ruler of the place is kept 'on the rocks'...
  
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #20 - 10/01/09 at 18:06:50
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When they serve ice-cold lemonade in Hell.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #19 - 09/29/09 at 20:26:33
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Quote:
What is White's idea here?


Simply go on towards the Polar Bear : 3.g3  4. Bg2, I guess. Why should Black hold back his queen's pawn from jumping into d5 ?
Although Taylor recommends 3.e4 and Larsens system (Be2)  but of course closed and GPA remain possible, too.
  
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #18 - 09/19/06 at 11:29:17
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Not only that, but the English and Perenyi Attacks do not compare well with their big cousin the Keres.

P.S.  1.f4 c5 ; 2. Ktf3 g6 was not mentionned in either of the threads devoted to the Bird move-order. What is White's idea here?
  
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #17 - 09/19/06 at 04:06:52
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If it were another choice, say 6.Be2 or 6.f4, it would have been more useful to concentrate on the Najdorf iso the GPA. But the logical complement of the Keres Attack is either 6.Bg5 or 6.Be3. Both moves demand a lot of prepatory work indeed.
  

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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #16 - 09/18/06 at 23:31:14
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[
On your Najdorf problem: what do you intend to play against the Scheveningen? [/quote]

Keres attack. Why?
  

If you try, you may lose. If you don´t try, you have lost.
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #15 - 09/18/06 at 17:30:22
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This has already been discussed in the thread "French setup against GPA". If I recall correctly, the indefatigable MNb did all the hard-core analysis for the rest of us.
The conclusions were not clearly drawn but ran along the following lines : after 3. ...e6, White has nothing better than 4. Ktc3 and he has no advantage against 4. ...Ktge7.
So the trade-off is that with 1. f4, White avoids 1. e4 c5 ; 2. Ktc3 e6 (since 1. f4 c5 ; 2. Ktf3 e6 ; 3. b3 gives him some prospects for advantage) and 1. e4 c5 ; 2. Ktc3 Ktc6 ; 3. f4 g6, but must be prepared to face other lines against the Bird (in particular "my refutation" 1. ...d6 ; 2. Ktf3 e5. More on this when I come to terms with the annoyingly resilient 3. e4 ef ; 4. d4 g5 ; 5. Ktc3 as championned by MNb) and gets no advantage against 1. ...c5 anyway.
By the way, we all know that if it weren't for 2. ...d5, White's best path to the Grand Prix would be 2. f4, but this is not because of 2. ...Ktc6 ; 3. Ktf3, when 3. ...e6 ; 4. Ktc3 leads to the familiar position, but the immediate 3. Bb5! would be the precise move-order. All a bit academic and irrelevant, but before that thread I had not thought about this interesting finesse.
« Last Edit: 09/18/06 at 18:35:20 by Uberdecker »  
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #14 - 09/18/06 at 16:36:46
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My only way to play the Grand Prix attack is 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6!? 3.e4! ,
any other move order seems to be okay for Black.

(Sorry for that short break) tracke   Wink
  
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #13 - 09/18/06 at 03:42:35
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a) In the past eg Short and Anand thought so.
b) Yes. After 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 g6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Bg7 Black plays the Accelerated Dragon and avoids the Maroczy Bind.
c) There is Lane's 1997 book on the GPA. Combined with the several threads on this site you are well on your way.

On your Najdorf problem: what do you intend to play against the Scheveningen?
  

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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #12 - 09/17/06 at 21:22:28
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Hi, interesting topic;

right now i am working on a white e4-repertoire with the open sicilian and I haven´t found time to learn a suitable variation against the Najdorf Undecided.

My idea right now is a move-order trick with 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 d6 3.f4 and the GPA, and if black a6,Nc6 or e6 I´ll be happy with 3.Nf3 transposing to an open sicilian.

a) Can I avoid the Najdorf this way effectively?
b) Are there snags concerning this move order after a6,Nc6 or e6?
c) Any books/sources/threads to be recommended on 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 d6 3.f4 ?

Thanks for your help,
Lou
  

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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #11 - 07/20/06 at 03:30:00
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I wish I could be more helpful but I don't think White has any other choice but to go into the Open variation if he wants an interesting game.  White's early f4 isn't ideal, but he's not worse either.
  
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #10 - 07/20/06 at 02:29:03
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Thanks. But my main problem at the moment is avoiding the Open Sicilian after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 (e6) 3.f4 e6 4.Nf3 a6!?
See the French Setup thread.
  

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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #9 - 07/18/06 at 23:23:13
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Quote:
A) 2...Nc6 3.f4 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 and it is very well known (since Van Wijgerden's 1978 analysis), that 5.Bc4 is a dubious move, to say it friendly. The only way to play this variation is with 5.Bb5 and after Nd4 I would try 6.a4, without pretending to prove an advantage.


Things may have changed but you might want to consider 6.0-0 which shouldn't lead to an advantage either but check out this segment from Donaldson's review of Rogozenko's anti-sicilian book (hopefully I'm not getting on people's nerves by continuing to mention this, but the full review can be found at http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_js/js_anti_sicilians_gd_black.html).

"Let’s try another system from the book, this time looking at something that’s popular with many players in the “B” to 2400 category: 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bb5 Nd4 6.0-0 Nxb5 (Rogo makes us think that everything is a cake-walk here, but IM Zoran Ilic says, in an excellent and detailed article on this whole system, “Generally speaking, with all continuations Black achieves solid positions but his problem is that it is very difficult for him to organize adequate counterplay.”) 7.Nxb5 d5 8.e5 (Ilic gives this an “!” and says, “Black really has to know what he is doing, and even then it is not clear if he can equalize.” Zounds! That’s not what I would want to hear if I had decided to trust my soul to Rogozenko.) 8…a6 9.Nc3 d4 10.Ne4 Qd5 11.Qe1 Nh6 12.Nf6+ Bxf6 13.exf6 Be6 14.fxe7 Nf5 15.d3 Nxe7, Reinderman-M Hoffmann, Groningen 1998. Rogozenko says that this position is, “at least satisfactory for Black.”

Okay, I’ll accept that Black is equal after 11.Qe1, though the “at least satisfactory for Black” comment makes me think that the second player is the only one with chances. Not so, since 16.Ng5 forces Black to find a few good moves.

But Ilic also mentions 11.Qe2!?, a move that Rogozenko ignores.

BLACK TO MOVE, WHAT’S AN UNPREPARED PLAYER TO DO?
Suddenly things get more interesting: 11…Bg4?! 12.d3 Nh6 13.h3 Bxf3 14.Qxf3 Qc6 15.g4 f5 16.exf6 exf6 17.f5 and White obtained a strategically winning position, Plaskett-Hodgson, England 1999.

No problem, Black played poorly with 11…Bg4. Ilic says that 11…Nh6 is likely best, thinking that White probably should try 12.Nf6+ as above. However, the position of the Queen on e2 makes life easier for Black here than it did in the other line with 11.Qe1 since now 12.Nf6+ Bxf6 13.exf6 can be met by 13…Qe6! when White has nothing.

End of story? No, White can make use of the Queen’s position on e2 by playing (after 11…Nh6) 12.c4! Qc6 (Perhaps 12…dxc3 is better, but the play is still interesting: 13.Nxc3 Qd8 14.Qc4 when 14…b6 15.d4 keeps things hopping.) 13.b4! d3 14.Qxd3 Bf5 15.Re1 cxb4 16.Nd4 Qb6 17.Bb2 Rd8 18.Rac1. Now THIS is a chess position!", Donaldson.
  
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #8 - 07/01/06 at 21:38:46
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1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 d5 5. Bb5 Nf6 6. Bxc6+ bxc6 7. d3 Be7

I doubt White has anything here since if he ever plays e5, Black will have a ready made plan
of ...Nd7 ,,, Ba6 ...c4 ....f6 or ...f5. If White does nothing active then he
is just turning over the initiative or he admitted that Black has already
equalized.

8. b3 c4 9. bxc4

(9. e5 Ng4 10. O-O cxd3  Black opens enough room
for his bishops and is able to use those dark squares and this helps to give
him a comfortable game.)

9... dxe4 10. Nxe4 Nxe4 11. dxe4 Qb6

And even a pawn down Black can play this for a win at least as much as White can.
  

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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #7 - 06/29/06 at 02:29:38
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MNb wrote on 05/06/06 at 16:03:26:
Finally it is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.f4 d5 4.Nf3 dxe4 that prevents me from adding the GPA to my repertoire. White's problem obviously is, that pawn f4 hampers development. As Boersma has put it in his booklet on the GPA (and two other Anti-Sicilians): pawns are herd-animals. They feel best next to each other.


Wink
  

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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #6 - 06/28/06 at 17:18:02
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Quote:
C) 2...e6 3.f4 Nc6 4.Nf3 d5 5.Bb5



I dont see why Black should helpfully commit himself with an early ...Nc6 against an f4 system, simple chess should suffice...

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.f4 d5!

I think eventually we will all get fed up with these ant-sicilians and start working on the Open Sicilian - maybe 2.c3 and the Bb5 systems will remain a last hope  Undecided



  
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #5 - 05/07/06 at 12:37:47
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I think we basically agree Grin
Though I dont have a problem with a6 in the closed as long as you dont move the pawn to d6.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #4 - 05/06/06 at 16:03:26
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I am sorry, Willempie, but your post is a bit misleading. The GPA can arise after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3
A) 2...Nc6 3.f4 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 and it is very well known (since Van Wijgerden's 1978 analysis), that 5.Bc4 is a dubious move, to say it friendly. The only way to play this variation is with 5.Bb5 and after Nd4 I would try 6.a4, without pretending to prove an advantage.
B) 2...d6 3.f4 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 is the only version, where 5.Bc4 offers chances.
C) 2...e6 3.f4 Nc6 4.Nf3 d5 5.Bb5 Nf6 (after Nge7 probably 6.exd5 is best) 6.Bxc6+ bxc6 7.d3 and White plays in NID style with colours reversed. b3, Ba3, Na4, c4 are the ideal moves; compare Hübner Variation of the NID and also some lines of the NID Sämisch Attack.

If Black plays an early a6, then White's best is to transpose to the Closed Sicilian (g3, Bg2). The move a7-a6 might prove to be a loss of tempo.
Finally it is (alas) hardly possible to transpose the GPA from the French: 1.e4 e4 2.f4?! d5 3.e5 was already ugly in the famous 1834 match McDonnell-De la Bourdonnais.
The only viable transposition to the Open Sicilian is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.f4 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nge7 5.f4 cxd4 6.Nxd4, but even this position hardly ever arises after 3.Nf3 e6 3.d4 etc.
Finally it is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.f4 d5 4.Nf3 dxe4 that prevents me from adding the GPA to my repertoire. White's problem obviously is, that pawn f4 hampers development. As Boersma has put it in his booklet on the GPA (and two other Anti-Sicilians): pawns are herd-animals. They feel best next to each other.
  

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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #3 - 05/06/06 at 12:11:58
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MNb wrote on 05/05/06 at 21:39:50:
On second place is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.f4 when d5 4.Nf3 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 is pretty solid. White has some prospects for a tiny edge.

I have to disagree with this. Firstly black can delay d5, eg with a6 to avoid all Bb5 trickery or with Nc6. Secondly due to e6 the bishop cant really go to c4 which is what many GPA players want (after a6 that Bc4 looks really horrible). Thirdly I play a many similar lines as black (you can also get them via a french) and then I wouldnt like to exchange on e4 so quickly and first try to force white to e5 (then you get a very advantageous advance kind of french) or exd5 (which cant be bad for black either).

Personally I find that the lines with an early e6 in the various "antis" are usually underrated. They're very nasty vs the closed (which you will get if you move the bishop to g2 in the GPA) and is the main reason I gave up the closed.

But if you also play some open sicilians with f4, you could use this in combination with a GPA setup. Eg if black chooses a worse line you can stick with the GPA and if not transpose to an open. This may work best with quick d6 move-orders as iirc those lines in the GPA are not the best.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #2 - 05/05/06 at 21:39:50
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On second place is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.f4 when d5 4.Nf3 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 is pretty solid. White has some prospects for a tiny edge.
After 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 White has nothing better than 5.Bb5. He/she must be happy with dynamic equality then.
  

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Re: When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
Reply #1 - 05/05/06 at 20:35:51
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If you face a Najdorf player you're likely to face the move order 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 d6, when now you can play the GPA with 3.f4.  This is considered the best form of the GPA, since the line 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bc4 e6 6.f5 Nge7 has been avoided.  Some people play 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 and play the GPA against 2...d6 and the open or closed sicilian against other moves.
  
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When to Play Grand Prix Attack?
05/05/06 at 15:05:28
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It seems the main line GPA is not so much fun for White these days after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bc4 e6 6.f5 Nge7.

The thing is, I run into all kinds of stuff after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3, including 2...d6, 2...b6, 2...a6, as well as variations on Black's 3rd move, 4th move, etc.  I'd like to keep the GPA as part of my repertoire, but I'd like to use it judiciously.  Are there any lines against which the GPA setup is particularly effective? And by "effective" I don't necessarily mean +/-, but maybe +/= or close to it.

For example, after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6, a KIA setup is supposed to be fairly effective.   I'm looking for the same kinds of cues for when a GPA might be effective. 

Thank you.
  
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