Especially as 5...dxe4 does very well in practice: 8 games in 2005 and 2006, 5 wins - for Black. Overall Black scores 55%.

I just received Palliser's book today.  I've only been able to sneak peeks at it, but I'm pleased so far.  I have no idea if titled players will find anything useful, but it certainly looks well suited to U2000 players. 

One problem I face when playing these "system" openings is how to weigh the merits of certain thematic moves against others.  For instance, in the Closed Sicilian, White often has a choice between Nge2 or Nf3 (or even Nh3).  To the amateur, it sometimes looks like nothing more than a matter of taste.  But from what little I've read, Palliser makes some effort to explain when one type of setup might be preferable to another.

He also offers some tips on when White might be better advised to include an early f4 in the Be3 lines, or perhaps transpose to alternative setups such as the KIA.

Or, as another example, why Bh6 is less useful against ...e5 setups than ...e6 setups.  Good stuff.

He has included complete games of some old Spassky classics in the 6.f4 section. 

The TIPS/NOTES/WARNINGS are, for the most part, instructive, such as: "Black will often arrange to meet f4 by doubling on the c8-h3 diagonal, thereby driving the h3-knight backwards.  That can be a reasonable plan, but White will hope that the g4-bishop is vulnerable to ideas of h3 and f5."  Much more helpful to the audience of this book than "A Knight on the Rim is Dim."

The variations in these Starting Out books are getting to be pretty dense.  I don't remember Gallagher's KID book being quite this, well, messy.

I believe the section on early Black deviations is a little lean, but there's only so many pages to go around, I guess.

The Index of Variations contains diagrams of the tabiyas, I guess you would call it.  Kind of interesting, but I don't know how helpful that will be.  I guess I'd rather have it than not have it.

I'm looking forward to spending some time with it.

9. ...f5 is positional blunder

MNb wrote on 05/12/06 at 20:56:26:

Good questions and I dont think we'll come to a consensus, but I'll add some food for thought anyway.
-Firstly after 2 d3 you are committed to specific closed setups. Your "scare" line against the closed (which is indeed the reason I gave up the closed) isnt necessarily a problem as long as you are flexible as white. Eg many white players use 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 e6 3 Nc3 to avoid some annoying sidelines in the open sicilian (there's not really a viable way to avoid this as black). So after 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 e6 it may be a very good idea to transpose to the open sicilian, which is btw a move order I often use. Also if you insist on playing closed, Nf3 isnt really a problem in e6 lines. Eg check Timman-Polu Amsterdam 1981.
-The closed sicilian with Nge2 is imo underestimated. Ok it is not really a major threat to the survival of the sicilian, but if you're a positionally inclined player it is an excellent weapon. Eg Karpov used it to good effect in his early days.
-I have quite some experience with the KIA from the french (I play it with a quick c5 as black). The problem to me seems to be that white has difficulty finding good plans later on while black basically plays on autopilot. In the 2 club competition matches I got this as black I had about an hour more left than my opponent and never was in any danger.
-My opinion btw isnt based on the objective evaluation of the lines (which are almost all equal in any case) but on the "ease" of play. In the closed you have a bigger variety of options usually.

"the KIA vs the French is weaker than the closed vs the Sicilian."
As 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5 is equal (see above), then 1.e4 e6 2.d3 is =+!?

"The KIA is stronger for White than the King's Indian Reversed and Sicilian-KID Conflict"
But is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.g3 d5 stronger for White than 1.e4 c5 2.d3 Nc6 3.g3 d5 4.Nd2 Nf6 5.Bg2 e5  and why? Moreover, in the latter, is 6.Ngf3 best? The Averbach Variation of the Modern 1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.c4 Bg7 knows some lines for Black without Nf6 and they are not that bad. I was especially thinking of 6.Ne2 in the KIR, keeping the option f2-f4 open. I have never investigated this in detail, but it might be interestig to find out, if White can play a kind of KID with a couple of tempi extra.

Just a couple of very biased questions.

I would just like to add my completely unbiased opinion ( ) that the KIA vs the French is weaker than the closed vs the Sicilian. In the KIA you have less pressure on d5. Also as white you have more flexibility in the closed.

MNb wrote on 05/12/06 at 02:07:44:


This is an interesting approach.  If I understand, then the question is who must tip his hand first, White by moving his QN or Black by moving one of his center pawns.

In my (limited) experience, Black players who intend to play ...d5 do so very early, usually on move 3.  Most do not combine ...g6 with ...e6 + ...d5.  So maybe White is in a better position to sit back and see how things develop (as he usually is in these cat and mouse openings).

Yeah, 2. d3 could contain the idea of going into either the KIA, the Closed Sicilian or the "Big Clamp" (which I associate with the Canadian IM Lawrence Day).  Here's a (non-Day) game with the Clamp:

[Event "Baguio City Wch-m"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1978.??.??"]
[Round "11"]
[White "Kortchnoi, Viktor"]
[Black "Karpov, Anatoly Evgenievich"]
[Result "1-0"]
[NIC "SI 44.2.7"]
[ECO "A00"]
[PlyCount "100"]

1. g3 c5 2. Bg2 Nc6 3. e4 g6 4. d3 Bg7 5. f4 d6 6. Nf3 Nf6 7. O-O O-O 8. c3 Rb8 9.
Qe2 Ne8 10. Be3 Nc7 11. d4 cxd4 12. cxd4 Bg4 13. Rd1 d5 14. e5 Qd7 15. Nc3 Rfc8 16.
Qf1 b5 17. h3 Bxf3 18. Bxf3 b4 19. Bg4 e6 20. Na4 Na5 21. Nc5 Qe8 22. Be2 Nb7 23.
Nxb7 Rxb7 24. Rdc1 Qd7 25. Rc2 b3 26. axb3 Rxb3 27. Qc1 Rb7 28. Ba6 Rcb8 29. Bxb7
Rxb7 30. Ra3 h6 31. Rac3 Nb5 32. Rc8  Kh7 33. R2c6 f6 34. Kg2 Qf7 35. Qc2 a5 36.
g4 fxe5 37. fxe5 a4 38. Ra8 Na7 39. Ra6 Qe7 40. Rxa4 Rc7 41. Qb3 Nc6 42. Ra1 Nb4
43. Rc1 Rc4 44. Rb8 Rxc1 45. Bxc1 Qc7 46. Rxb4 Qxc1 47. Qd3 h5 48. Rb6 Bh6 49. gxh5
Qg5  50. Qg3 Qd2  1-0

For Black I might suggest playing for the so-called Botvinnik setup regardless of what White is doing.  But look out for this kind of thing ...

[Event "Bucuresti"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1968.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Bilek, Istvan"]
[Black "Gheorghiu, Florin"]
[Result "1-0"]
[NIC "SI 45.10.8"]
[ECO "B25"]
[PlyCount "37"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. d3 d6 6. f4 e5 7. Nh3 Nge7 8. O-O O-O 9.
f5 gxf5 10. exf5 Bxf5 11. Rxf5 Nxf5 12. Be4 Nfd4 13. Qh5 Re8 14. Qxh7  Kf8 15. Bg5
Qd7 16. Nd5 Re6 17. Rf1 Nxc2 18. Bg6 N2d4 19. Bh6 1-0

For Black I would suggest 8...ef instead.  You can improve on this game ...

[Event "Geneva m"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1977.??.??"]
[Round "13"]
[White "Spassky, Boris Vasilievich"]
[Black "Portisch, Lajos"]
[Result "1-0"]
[NIC "SI 45.10.6"]
[ECO "B25"]
[PlyCount "79"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. d3 d6 6. f4 e5 7. Nh3 exf4 8. Bxf4 Nge7
9. O-O h6 10. Rb1 O-O 11. a3 Be6 12. Be3 Ne5 13. Nf4 Bd7 14. Kh1 Rc8 15. Qd2 Kh7
16. h3 Bc6 17. g4 Qd7 18. Rf2 b6 19. Rbf1 Bb7 20. Qe2 Rce8 21. Bc1 Kg8 22. Qe3 b5
23. Qg3 b4 24. axb4 cxb4 25. Nd1 d5 26. d4 N5c6 27. exd5 Nxd4 28. c4 bxc3 29. bxc3
Nb3 30. Ba3 Rc8 31. c4 Na5 32. Re2 Rfe8 33. Rfe1 Bf8 34. Nh5 Nxd5 35. cxd5 gxh5 36.
gxh5  Bg7 37. Bb2 f6 38. Bxf6 Rxe2 39. Rxe2 Qf7 40. Re6 1-0

The pure reversed King's Indian case makes me think of this game ...

[Event "Nice olympiad final"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1974.06.26"]
[Round "11"]
[White "Planinc, Albin"]
[Black "Rubinetti, Jorge Alberto"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2545"]
[BlackElo "2415"]
[NIC "RE 24.5"]
[ECO "A08"]
[PlyCount "57"]

1. g3 c5 2. Bg2 d5 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. O-O e5 5. d3 Nf6 6. Nbd2 Be7 7. e4 O-O 8. c3 Re8
9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Re1 Bf8 11. Nc4 Qc7 12. Ng5 Rd8 13. Qe2 Nb6 14. Qe4 g6 15. Qh4 h5
16. Ne4 Nd5 17. Bg5 Bf5 18. Nf6  Nxf6 19. Bxf6 Rxd3 20. Bf1 Rd7 21. Nxe5 Nxe5 22.
Rxe5 Bg4 23. h3 Bf3 24. Bb5 Rd6 25. Rae1 Rxf6 26. Qxf6 Bg7 27. Re8  Rxe8 28. Rxe8 
Kh7 29. Qxf3 1-0

In the case of the KIA vs. French so-called "long variation" I would think of a couple of games such as this ...

[Event "Sousse izt"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1967.??.??"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Fischer, Robert James"]
[Black "Myagmarsuren, Lhamsuren"]
[Result "1-0"]
[NIC "RE 24.14"]
[ECO "C00"]
[PlyCount "61"]

1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. g3 c5 5. Bg2 Nc6 6. Ngf3 Be7 7. O-O O-O 8. e5 Nd7
9. Re1 b5 10. Nf1 b4 11. h4 a5 12. Bf4 a4 13. a3 bxa3 14. bxa3 Na5 15. Ne3 Ba6 16.
Bh3 d4 17. Nf1 Nb6 18. Ng5 Nd5 19. Bd2 Bxg5 20. Bxg5 Qd7 21. Qh5 Rfc8 22. Nd2 Nc3
23. Bf6 Qe8 24. Ne4 g6 25. Qg5 Nxe4 26. Rxe4 c4 27. h5 cxd3 28. Rh4 Ra7 29. Bg2 dxc2
30. Qh6 Qf8 31. Qxh7  1-0

and this ...

[Event "Sofia"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1967.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Gheorghiu, Florin"]
[Black "Uhlmann, Wolfgang"]
[Result "1-0"]
[NIC "RE 24.14"]
[ECO "A08"]
[PlyCount "52"]

1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. Ngf3 Be7 5. g3 c5 6. Bg2 Nc6 7. O-O O-O 8. Re1 b5
9. e5 Nd7 10. Nf1 a5 11. h4 b4 12. Bf4 a4 13. a3 bxa3 14. bxa3 Ba6 15. Ne3 Nd4 16.
c4 Nb3 17. cxd5 Nxa1 18. Qxa1 exd5 19. Nxd5 Bxd3 20. e6 Nf6 21. Nxe7  Qxe7 22. Ne5
Bg6 23. Nc6 Qb7 24. Bd6 Be4 25. Rxe4 Qxc6 26. Bxf8 Rxf8 1-0


I'm just saying, I think these are a few games White could take into consideration if he is thinking of playing 2. d3.   

Dont play it is the answer! Closed Sicilian hardly challenging these days, if you are looking for an ant-Sicilian go for the c3 line (not to my taste) or the Bb5 lines which leave a bit more to the imagination

I attached an exclamation mark, because 3...d5 looks like a straight equalizer to me. Personally as Black I would favour a plan with an early b7-b5-b4 too, as Black creates more winning chances.
Kylemeister, don't you think Black's play easily can be improved in that Gulko - Kremenietsky game? Neither 10...Nd7 nor 13...Bxc3 look very good to me.
If White wants to follow Chanov-Zaitsjik, 1979, there is also Morris-Minnican, Isle of Lewis 1995 (11...h6) and Kobe-Ftacnik, Ljubljana 2004 (9...Bd7 10.Nge2 d4!).
I have been looking at some of the more interesting variations of the Göring/Danish Gambit Declined (from Black's point of view) and compared them with that Closed Sicilian line. Quite often the extra move g3 is somewhat weakening. Despite the not so promising results White's best try might be 3.g3 d5 4.exd5 exd5 5.d4 cxd4 6.Qxd4 Nf6 7.Bg5 Be7 8.o-o-o Nc6 9.Qa4 Be6 10.Nge2 o-o 11.Bg2 Qb6 12.Be3 (12.Nd4!? idea 13.Qb5) Bc5 13.Bxc5 Qxc5 14.Nd4 Yildiz-Kursova, WCh U18 G Halkidiki 2004.

why is 1e4 c5 2Nc3 e6 3g3 d5 4ed ed 5d4 cd 6Qxd4 dubious for white kylemeister? how does black gain an advantage against it?

I  would be somewhat hesitant to give 3...d5 a !. I don't think its any better than some of the other lines black has at his disposal. when i played the closed sicilian i found lines with an early Rb8 by black and subsequent rapid qside pawn advance more problematical. After 1e4 c5 2Nc3 e6 3g3 d5 4ed ed 5d4 cd 6Qxd4 I don't see why white would worry however black continues. And of course there are other options for white at move 5.
No doubt Pallisers book will be good but maybe Bb5 lines are a better anti Sicilian choice. It's probably just  a matter of taste.

It is a good system opening, so that once you learned it sticks. Plus it leaves some room for variety (eg check some games by Karpov with Ne2 and some games by Spassky with f4 and Nf3). However if black knows what he is doing there are far too many equalising lines (e6 with delayed and quick d5, Botwinnik setup and d6, e6 and g7 with Ne7 etc). I have played it for a very long time, but once I got at a certain level (not that high ) I have almost given it up entirely. I now use it as a backup line as I use a quick Nc3 to move-order black out of certain open lines, but if he chooses an inferior closed setup I may be tempted to head for the closed. Usually an inferior setup is still not good enough for an objective advantage, but will give you much easier play.