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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ben_Hague v Uberdeker, Smith-Morra Gambit (Read 33929 times)
Katalyst
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Re: Ben_Hague v Uberdeker, Smith-Morra Gambit
Reply #55 - 03/10/08 at 06:44:13
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Hi, I'd agree that the 8. e5? 9. Ng5! exf4? line is very bad for Black, only 9...Be6 10. Nxe6 fxe6 11. Be3 appears to be playable, leaving White with great compensation.

Are most people agreed now that 9. h3 is the best move, as there seems to be a growing consensus here?

My reason for posting though is I've done some analysis of the interesting piece sac from earlier in the thread.

[1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 d6 6.Bc4 a6 7.0-0 Nf6 8.Bf4 Bg4 9.Qb3 e6 10.Be2 Qb8 11.Rfe1 Be7]

12.e5!? Nh5 13.Bxg5 14.Nxg5 Bxe2 15.exd6!?

The 3 main choices are 0-0, h6 and Bg4:

15...0-0 16.Nxe2 Qxd6 17.Qxb7 Rab8 18.Qxa6 Qd5 19.Rad1 Qxg5 20.Qxc6 Rxb2 21.a4 Nf4 22.Nxf4 Qxf4 23. Rf1 as given earlier, leaves White with the outside passed pawn. Maybe 17...Ra7 18.Qb3 is better and looks about equal, but I wondered if Black can escape with any of his ill-gotten gains.

15...h6!? 16.Nxe6 fxe6 17.Qxe6 Kf8 18.Rxe2 Qe8 (18...Nf6 19.d7 Qc7 20.Rd1 Rd8 looks too scary to me) 19.Qg4 Qf7 20.Rae1 Kg8 21.Rd2 Nf6 22.Qg3 Kh7 23.Red1 Rad8 and Black can try to exchange off pieces and round up the d-pawn,

15...Bg4 16.h3 (this is where it gets messy)

  i) 16...h6?!
     17.d7+?!
             17...Kxd7? 18.Nxf7 Rf8 19.hxg4 Nf4 20.Rad1+ Ke7 (20...Kc7 21.Rxe6+-) 21.Nd6+-;
           17...Kf8 18.hxg4 hxg5 19.gxh5 Rxh5µ;
     17.Nxf7!? Kxf7 18.hxg4 Nf4 19.Rad1 Re8 ÷ (19...Nd8!?)  (19...Rd8? 20.g3 Nh3+ 21.Kg2 Ng5 22.f4 Na5 23.Qa4 Rxd6 24.fxg5 Rxd1 25.Rxd1 Nc6 26.Rd7++-; )
     17.hxg4 hxg5
           18.d7+?! Kxd7 19.gxh5 Ke8 20.Rxe6+
                 20...fxe6 21.Qxe6+ Kf8 (21...Ne7? 22.Re1) 22.Qf5+ Kg8 23.Qe6+=  perpetual;
                 20...Kf8 21.Qa3+ Kg8 22.Rd6 Rxh5 23.Ne4;
           18.gxh5 18...Qxd6 19.Qxb7 0–0 (19...Rb8?! 20.Ne4 Qd7 21.Qxa6 Rxh5±) 20.Ne4 Qd5 21.Rad1 Qb5 22.Qxb5 axb5 23.a3˛;            
 
   ii) 16...Bxh3 17.d7+ Kf8 18.gxh3 Nf4 19.Ne2 Qd8 20.Nxf4 Qxg5+ 21.Ng2 (A)

   iii) 16...Bf5 17.g4
     17...h6? 18.d7+ Kxd7 (18...Kf8 19.Nxf7 Kxf7
       20.gxf5 Nf4 21.fxe6+ Kf8...yikes) 19.Nxf7 Rf8 20.gxf5 Nf4 21.fxe6+ +-;
     17...Bxg4 18.hxg4 Nf4 19.Re4 Qxd6 20.Qxb7 0–0
       21.Rc4 (21.Nxf7? Rxf7 22.Qxa8+ Rf8 23.Qxa6 Nh3+–+)  (B)
     17...Bg6 18.gxh5 Bxh5 19.Nd5 0–0 20.Nf4
         20...Bg6? 21.Nxg6 hxg6 22.Rad1 ±;
         20...Qd8?! 21.Qg3
           21...Bg6?? 22.Nxg6 fxg6 23.Nxe6 +-
           21...Nd4? 22.Nxh5 Qxg5 23.Qxg5 Nf3+ 24.Kg2 Nxg5 25.h4 (the sting in the tail) 25...Rfd8 26.hxg5 Rxd6 ±
           21...h6 22.Ne4 Bg6 23.Nxg6 fxg6 24.Qxg6 White gets his material back with a better position;
         20...h6!
           21.Ne4 Nd4 22.Qg3 Bg6 23.Nxg6 fxg6 24.Qxg6 Nf3+ 25.Kh1 Nxe1  26.Qxe6+ Rf7 27.Rxe1 Qc8! 28.Qb3 Qc6 µ
           21.Nxh5 21...hxg5 22.Rad1 (22...Rd8? 23.Qc3 f6 24.Rxe6) e5 ÷ (C)

So I think that if Black plays 15...Bg4 he should aim for position A, B or C, with the other option being the 15...h6!? line. I think position B might be the best to go for as the king is safely castled and the kingside pawns are intact, but would appreciate any thoughts on the final evals.

After Bg4 turned out to be so messy it's also tempting to go for 15...h6!?, but there may be some improvements there as well.
  
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Re: Ben_Hague v Uberdeker, Smith-Morra Gambit
Reply #54 - 02/05/08 at 20:02:01
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Hi

I remember Ben Hague's suggestion 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 d6 6.Bc4 a6 7.0-0 Nf6 8.Bf4 Bg4 9.Qb3 (here 9.h3!? is perhaps playable) 9...e6 10.Ng5!? being analyzed. It occurred in B.Hague-P.Wells, England 2007.
I have checked my notes but nothing on 8...e5 9.Ng5 except for the game Musalov-Allemann, Biel 2001.
Since 8...Bg4 is critical I did not analyze 8...e5 in any detail. However I did consider the greedy 9.Ng5 exf4 10.Nxf7 Qe7 11.Nxh8 with 12.Nd5 to come. If White wants to take the rook, why should he first pitch the e4-pawn?
  
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Re: Ben_Hague v Uberdeker, Smith-Morra Gambit
Reply #53 - 01/29/08 at 03:24:04
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If my memory serves me right the line 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 d6 6.Bc4 a6 7.0-0 Nf6 8.Bf4 e5 9.Ng5! (exclam for bravery, not because it proves an advantage) exf4 10.Nxf7 has been analysed somewhere on this forum. But I cannot refind it. So here are some lines.
a) 10...Qe7 11.e5
a1) 11...dxe5 12.Re1 g6 13.Qa4 Bd7 14.Nxh8 Rc8 15.Bf7+ Kd8 16.Nd5 and White went on to win, Musalov-Allemann, Biel 2001.
a2) 11...Nxe5 12.Nxh8 Nxc4 13.Qa4+ b5 (Kd8 14.Qxc4 Be6 15.Qxf4 g5 16.Qe3 with play along the e-file) 14.Nxb5 axb5 15.Qxa8 Qb7 16.Qxb7 Bxb7 17.a4 with a weird endgame.
b) 10...Qd7 11.Nxh8 Ne5 12.Qb3 (I think 12.Be2 and 12.Qd4 less convincing) f3 (g5 13.Na4 f3 14.Rfc1 b5 15.Nb6 Qg4 16.Bf1 +-) 13.Rfc1 fxg2 (13...Qg4 14.Bf1) 14.Nd5 Nxd5 (Nxe4 15.Nc7+) 15.Bxd5 g5 16.Rc3! Bg7 17.Rac1 Bxh8 18.Rc7 Qg4 19.R1c3 and I prefer White.
Improvements are likely, but at the moment the verdict unclear seems fitting.
  

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MNb
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Re: Ben_Hague v Uberdeker, Smith-Morra Gambit
Reply #52 - 07/17/07 at 02:02:02
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Just for fun, because I felt like and had nothing better to do (actually I had, but I needed an excuse to postpone some duties) and all other amateur reasons, that sound so silly in GM ears, I have tried to revive the Morra Gambit in some variations, which were causing trouble.
Now it is my opinion, that 6...a6 is met best with 7.0-0 Nf6 8.Bf4
a) 8...Bg4 9.h3
a1) 9...Bxf3 10.Qxf3 e6 11.Rfd1 Qa5 Allahmehzadeh-Jens, Hengelo 1996, 12.Be2 (maybe even 12.Bb3) Ne5 13.Qg3 Be7 eg 14.b4 (14.Bd2) Qxb4 15.Rab1 Qa5 16.Rxb7 with decent compensation.
a2) 9...Bh5 10.Qb3 e5 (after e6 11.Qxb7 White is better off compared to 9.Qb3) 11.Bd2 (maybe 11.Bg5 with a similar idea) Na5 12.Qa4+ b5 13.Nxb5 axb5 14.Qxb5+ Ke7 (Nd7 15.Bd5, Qd7 15.Bxa5 Qxb5 16.Bxb5+ +-) 15.Nxe5 Qb8 16.Bb4 Qxv5 17.Bxb5+ unclear. It is a pity, that the queens are exchanged, but two connected passed pawns and especially the lack of harmony in Black's camp offer compensation.
b) 8...e5 9.Ng5!
c) 8...e6 9.Qe2 Be7 10.Rfd1 transposes to well known lines, while 9...e5 and 9...b5 10.Bb3 e5 are met again with 10(11).Ng5.

All these efforts to not change a bit to my general opinion, that on patzer level the Morra Gambit is impractical. The last count netted no less than 10 more or less decent defences after 3...dxc3 and at least 4 playable ways to decline. For Black of course only one suffices.  Sad
  

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Re: Ben_Hague v Uberdeker, Smith-Morra Gambit
Reply #51 - 10/19/06 at 01:57:15
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Oh, don't bother, I don't dare to count how many times that happened to me ...
Once again my memory has deceived me ... Patrik's variation is nice and changing move order with 10...Na5 does not work either.
What about 10.Be2 Qb8 11.Rfe1 Be7 12.e5 Nh5 13.Bg5 Bxf3 14.Bxf3 (after 14.Bxe7 Nxe5 15.Nb5 Kxe7 White has enough for one pawn, but not for two) Bxg5 15.Bxh5 d5 ? Critical seems 16.Nxd5 exd5 17.Qxd5 0-0 18.e6, but it is not enough after the nice Qf4!
I beg your pardon, if I miss something obvious here, as I am suffering from a flu and my brains work even worse than usual today.  Angry
  

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Re: Ben_Hague v Uberdeker, Smith-Morra Gambit
Reply #50 - 10/18/06 at 18:27:26
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[quote author=MNb link=1154029852/15#25 date=1154724725]Decent move, but 10...b5 11.Rfd1 Na5 also was to be considered. The white queen has some shortage of good squares.
[/quote]

But this is not nearly as laughable as 9. h3 Bxf3 ; 10. Qxf3 g6 ; 11. Rfd1 Qa5?? By the way, 12. Bd6 is much less a cheap tactic than the deserved punishment of a patzer's blindfold suggestion.
Patrik is setting us some annoying problems. As I haven't done any serious analysing yet, I will refrain from any more flippant comments but I will post again soon.
  
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MNb
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Re: Ben_Hague v Uberdeker, Smith-Morra Gambit
Reply #49 - 10/17/06 at 21:32:56
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What does White have after 9.h3 Bxf3 10.Qxf3 e6 (g6? 11.Rfd1 Qa5 12.Bxd6! is another example of cheap tactics, preventing Black from realizing his strategical dreams  Wink) 11.Rfd1 Qa5 intending 12...Ne5 ?

And I did not suggest 10...b5? but 10...Qb8 11.Rfe1 b5, not considered by Patrik. With the queen already on b8, the sacs on b5 don't work, as far as I can see. Critical seems 12.e5 dxe5 13.Bg5 h6 (not dxe5 14.Nxb5!), but 14.Be3 Nxe5 15.Nxe5 Bxg4 16.Nxf7 looks good enough for White.

I also think, that Patrik's line after 11...Be7 12.e5 is far from a draw yet: White can try 19.Nc3 Qxg5 20.Qxc6 Rxb2 21.a4 Nf4 22.Qf3, hoping to capitalize the passed a-pawn.
  

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Re: Ben_Hague v Uberdeker, Smith-Morra Gambit
Reply #48 - 10/17/06 at 19:18:27
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1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 dxc3 4. Nxc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 d6 6. Bc4 a6 7. O-O Nf6 8. Bf4 Bg4 9. Qb3 e6 10. Be2 Qb8
11. Rfe1 Be7 12. e5 Nh5

(12... dxe5 13. Nxe5 Nxe5 14. Bxe5 Qxe5 15. Bb5+ Qxb5 16. Nxb5 axb5 17. Qxb5+ Kf8 18. h3 Bh5 19. a4 b6 20. Qxb6 g5 21. g4 Bg6 22. Qb7 Rd8 23.Rad1+/-)

13. Bg5 Bxg5

(13... dxe5 14. Bxe7 Kxe7 15. Nxe5 Nxe5 16. Bxg4 Nf6 17. Qb4+ Ke8 18. Be2 Qc7 19. Ne4 Nc6
20. Nxf6+ gxf6 21. Qc3 Ke7 22. Qc5+ Qd6=)

14. Nxg5 Bxe2 15. exd6 O-O 16. Nxe2 Qxd6 17. Qxb7 Rab8 18. Qxa6 Qd5 19. Rad1 Qxg5 20. Qxc6 Rxb2 21. a4 Nf4 22. Nxf4 Qxf4 23. Rf1  1/2-1/2

This line offers no progress for both sides. The result is a draw.

Let´s try to discuss 9.h3!? as this is obviously more interesting than weird Qb3-Be2 sequence of move. As Uberdeker correctly said, if white cannot take on b7, there is no need to play Qb3 for the time being.


The reason for playing h3 and only then Qb3, see the two lines below:

1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 dxc3 4. Nxc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 d6 6. Bc4 a6 7. O-O Nf6 8. Bf4 Bg4

a) without h3, black can retreat his bishop after 12.Qa4+
9.Qb3?! e6 10. Qxb7 Na5 11.Qb4 e5 12. Qa4+ Bd7 -+

b) with h3-Bh5, black is forced to play 13..Nd7
9.h3!? Bh5 10. Qb3 e6 11. Qxb7 Na5 12. Qb4 e5 13. Qa4+ Nd7 14. Bg5 +/-



  
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Re: Ben_Hague v Uberdeker, Smith-Morra Gambit
Reply #47 - 10/16/06 at 19:44:59
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Uberdeker, actually, I like your style of argumenting. I also like provocative style of arguments - as they provoke new thoughts;) I will be glad to continue with analysis. I hope I will manage to do some analysis during next few days. I would like to advocate 9.h3 more, as this is the main line in my personal opening book.
Recently, the more Im devoting myself to Freestyle chess tournaments, the more objective I need to be. Im testing my lines on playchess and it is very tough testing there. Unsound gambit lines have not a tinniest chance to survive. Therefore Im leaving them behind. Only real gambits which offer real compensation can survive.
  
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Re: Ben_Hague v Uberdeker, Smith-Morra Gambit
Reply #46 - 10/15/06 at 22:02:53
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P.S. If your audacious sac truly does hold up to analysis, Black can always change his move order with 11. ...Ktd7, a move which fits in with his plans in any case. Also, ...Bxf3 can be played at any time to defuse e5 advances, but unless you come up with some more hidden tactical problems, Black is in no hurry to do this.
P.S.2 10. ...b5 did look shaky to me, but I didn't think MNb would suggest a move which ends in +/-. No doubt he will have some comments to submit on this.
  
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Re: Ben_Hague v Uberdeker, Smith-Morra Gambit
Reply #45 - 10/15/06 at 14:15:03
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Dear Patrik,

 Welcome back to the forum, and thank you for reviving this thread. Since Ben hasn't been in touch for several months, and now one else has expressed any interest in championing the White cause until now, perhaps you would care to continue the game. We can go back a few moves if you like. Certainly it will take someone with your strong belief in gambit play and unshakeable optimism to defend White's position. But before anything else, I suggest we both commit ourselves to conducting the discussions in a polite tone, unlike our past altercations in BDG threads (this I will also undertake once more to refute sometime in the future).

As for your analysis, very interesting stuff! The two deviations I had mentionned in my penultimate post also happen to be 9. h3 and 10. ...Qc7.

Regarding the latter, I gave 10. ...Qb8 preference so as not to expose the Queen on the open c-file, but 10. ...Qc7 ; 11. Rc1 Rc8 is to be preferred if Black can then calmly tuck the Queen on -b8 later. I seem to recall rejecting it because White had some tactical response, but maybe there's nothing to be worried about. I'll get back to you on this later.

As for 9. h3, I completely agree with you. If White cannot regain his pawn on -b7, there is simply very little point in putting the Queen on -b3 and then retreating the Bishop to -e2. Furthermore, it seems at first sight that after 9. h3 Bxf3 ; 10. Qxf3 White is full tempo tempo up on the line 8. Qe2 Bg4 ; 9. Rfd1 e6 ; 10. h3 Bxf3 ; 11. Qxf3 (clear Black advantage). Indeed, this should probably be considered the main line of the Morra.
[u]Bu[/u]t there is an important difference here. Black has not played ...e6 and thus has not weakened his structure in any way. He may instead develop with ...g6/ ...Bg7. How exactly Black should implement this plan is not yet clear to me. Perhaps 11. ...g6 ; 12. Rfd1 Qa5. More on this soon.

Finally, in the line chosen by Ben, 12. e5 / 15. ed!?!? is very ingenious. A lot of tactics going on there, but I can't bring myself to believe this is sound for White. Detailed analysis required.

You have certainly provided much food for thought.

                                      Regards,
                                           Hubert
  
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Re: Ben_Hague v Uberdeker, Smith-Morra Gambit
Reply #44 - 10/15/06 at 10:51:59
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And here comes a top level demonstation of Morra. Unfortunatelly this time not succesful for our team. This involves 8..e5 move, which was considered by Uberdeker.

Equidistance (2429) - Vvarkey,Rybka 1.1 32-bit (2439)
2nd PAL/CSS Freestlye Tournament - Main playchess.com #062594 (7), 19.03.2006
1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bc4 d6 7.Bf4 Nf6 8.Qe2 e5 9.Ng5 Be6 10.Bxe6 fxe6 11.Nxe6 (11.Be3! with compensation) Qc8 12.Nd5 exf4 13.Rc1 Rb8 14.0–0 Qd7 15.Ndxf4 Rc8 16.Qc4 Ne7 17.Qb3 Nxe4 18.Rxc8+ Qxc8 19.Qa4+ Qc6 20.Qxa7 g5 21.Qa8+ Qc8 22.Qa4+ Nc6 23.Qxe4 gxf4 24.Nxf8+? Equidistance offers a draw [24.Re1!=] 24...Kxf8 25.Qxf4+ Ke7 26.Re1+ Ne5 27.Qd4 Kd7 28.Rd1 Nf7 29.Re1 Qc7 30.Qf4 Rf8 31.Rc1 Qa5 32.Qg4+ Ke7 33.Qh4+ Qg5 34.Rc7+ Kf6 35.Qxh7 Qd2 36.Qh4+ Ng5 37.f4 Qd4+ 38.Kf1 Ke6 39.Qg4+ Rf5 40.Qe2+ Kf6 41.Qe7+ Kg6 42.Qe8+ Kh6 43.g3 Qd1+ 44.Qe1 Qf3+ 45.Qf2 Qh1+ 46.Ke2 Kg6 ' 47.Rc4 Ne4 48.Qe1 Qg2+ 49.Ke3 d5 50.Rb4 Rf7 51.Qe2 Qg1+ 52.Kd3 Rh7 53.Rxe4 Qb1+ 54.Kc3 Qxe4 55.Qg4+ Kf6 Equidistance resigns 0–1
  
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Re: Ben_Hague v Uberdeker, Smith-Morra Gambit
Reply #43 - 10/15/06 at 10:48:10
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Hello everybody.

Just today I have found these beautiful discussions about Morra. Let´s enter the story!

1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 dxc3 4. Nxc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 d6 6. Bc4 a6 7. O-O Nf6 8. Bf4 Bg4

(8... e5? 9. Ng5 Be6 10. Bxe6 fxe6 11. Be3 with advantage)

9. Qb3 e6 10. Be2 Qb8!?

(10... Qc7!? in my opening book considered to be the best choice 
10... b5? 11. Rfd1 Be7 (11... Na5 12. Qa3 d5 13. b4 Nc4 14. Bxc4 bxc4 15. exd5 Bxf3 16. gxf3 exd5 17.Qa4++/-)
12. Nxb5!)

11. Rfe1 not sure about this move Be7 12. e5 this should be the way for white to save the position

e.g. 12..Nh5 13. Bg5 Bxg5 14. Nxg5 Bxe2 15.exd6=

My preference is 9.h3! Bh5 10.Qb3 or 9..Bxf3 10.Qxf3 Rc8 11.Rfd1 with compensation.

Hope it gives fresh wind to this discussion.




  
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Re: Ben_Hague v Uberdeker, Smith-Morra Gambit
Reply #42 - 09/13/06 at 16:25:31
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I figure that for a further discussion on this position we would need somebody who disagrees that white has no compensation and must fight hard for the draw now...
  
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Re: Ben_Hague v Uberdeker, Smith-Morra Gambit
Reply #41 - 09/13/06 at 15:53:17
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Well, back to the grind. I suppose I am a bit disappointed that there has been no further contribution to this discussion during my absence, but since no time-limits were fixed at the beginning of the game, Ben is entitled to as long a think as he sees fit, athough it would be nice to at least hear from him whether he is still analysing or has entirely lost interest.

Indeed, White's resignation, although premature, would not be unfounded, and is in fact the logical follow-up to his 2nd and 3rd  moves (his 1rst as well, but let's not get into that just yet...)
  
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