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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Classical Dutch: State of Play (Read 89721 times)
TN
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #96 - 03/05/10 at 12:25:44
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Instead of 5.Nc3 I assume you mean 5.Bg2.

Instead of 10...d5, 10...Nc6!? looks like a good alternative, and 8...Bf5 isn't bad either.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #95 - 03/05/10 at 10:33:58
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I also got Simon's DVD and I really have to say it is a very nice piece of work!  Smiley
I watched it (some chapters I went over for a second time) and had the feeling that I was immediately ready to play the Classical Dutch in tournament games (I have never played it before)!

So I essayed it last weekend against a strong IM, and I won the game!  Cool

Nevertheless some theoretical questions remain, and I would like to pose them here, I would be glad if Simon himself could give his opinion.

My game went 1.c4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Nc3 d6!? 4.d4 Nf6 5.Bg2 e6 6.e4!? (this variation is not mentioned on the DVD, only when black's pawn is still on d7, when he plays the same plan as in the game and is absolutely fine) fe4: 7.Ne4: 0-0 8.Ne2 Ne4: 9.Be4: d5 10.Bg2 (10.Bb1!?) dc4: 11.Qa4?! Nc6 12.Qc4: Bb4+ 13.Kf1 Qf6 and I was already better with a nice initiative (e.g. 14.Be3 Bd2! is uncomfortable).

However 11.0-0 would have been better, when I'm not sure that black gets full equality: 11. ... Nc6 12.Be3 Bf6?! (the most natural, but not good it seems) 13.Qc2 e5 14.Qc4:+ Kh8 15.d5 and white is clearly better.

12. ... Nb4 is surely playable, but I think it should be += because of the weak pawn on e6.

Perhaps holding on to the pawn is strongest(?!), when 12. ... Bd7 13.Rc1 b5 14.Nf4 Nb4!? (the bishop on g2 is important) 15.a3 Nd5 16.Nd5: ed5: 17.Bd5: Kh8 and again white might be slightly better.

So I think this quick e4 is white's most principled try if he wants to "refute" the anti-Enlish moveorder with d6. Should black accept the loss of a tempo against the English and play without d6?


More on my other questions later, I don't want the post to become too long because then nobody would look at it...  Wink
« Last Edit: 03/05/10 at 13:39:35 by PatzerNoster »  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #94 - 02/24/10 at 23:12:50
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Ametanoitos wrote on 02/20/10 at 00:05:11:
Unfortunately there is an idea i'm working on to solve B;ack's problems after a suggestion of a GM friend. That is 13.Ne5 Rxf1 14.Qxf1 Bf6 15.b3!? dxc4 16.Qf4.

Quote:
Hi Dean, thanks for your kind comments, (all comments are welcolm, good or bad!)
'12.. dxc4 13. e3 Na5 14. Qa4 b6 15. Kg1 Qd7 16. Qc2 Ba6 17. Bh3!? (idea d5) Qd6
18. e5 Qd7 19. Ne4 Rf8 20. Bd2 Nb7 21. Rd1 with pressure based on d5 ideas (21.. c6? 22. Qa4)'
I believe 14...c5 is a decent improvement here.


I'd like to see how 14...c5 15.Nxc4 works for Black because i just don't see it yet....


Black might be able to get an acceptable position by some nice tactical finesses based on the a6-f1 diagonal. A "main" variation:

14...c5[Williams] 15.Nxc4 Nc6!? 16.d5 b5! 17.Qxb5 Nb4 18.Qa4 Ba6 19.a3! Bxc4+ 20.Kg1 exd5 21. axb4 dxe4 22.bxc5 Qd3 23. Bd2 Bxc5 24. Qc6 Bd5 25. Qxc5 Qxd2 26. Rf1 h6

But while most normal variations seem to lead to white advantage it is reasonable to claim at least += after 8. Nxe4! even if black would equalize by exact play.


  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #93 - 02/20/10 at 20:08:10
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Ametanoitos wrote on 02/20/10 at 00:05:11:
I'd like to see how 14...c5 15.Nxc4 works for Black because i just don't see it yet....


Rybka doesn't get it at first but using FireBird 1.1 with 3 GB of RAM it shows quickly that 14...c5 is indeed adequate for Black.

Yes 15.b3 is complicated but very difficult to deal with white's initiative for black otb. The critical and practical eye af a GM spotted it very quickly and it is annoying indeed i think....
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #92 - 02/20/10 at 09:50:43
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After 13.Ne5 Rxf1 14.Qxf1 Bf6 15.b3!? dxc4 16.Qf4 ...

I see  16. ... c5!? 17. dxc Qc7 18. Bd4 cxb with a very complicated position. the white active bishop pair can be very critical.


  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #91 - 02/20/10 at 00:27:59
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But 12.Kxf1 dxc4 13.e3 e5 looks OK for Black. So, for the 20th time or so i switch again from 10...exf3 to 10...Nc6.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #90 - 02/20/10 at 00:05:11
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Unfortunately there is an idea i'm working on to solve B;ack's problems after a suggestion of a GM friend. That is 13.Ne5 Rxf1 14.Qxf1 Bf6 15.b3!? dxc4 16.Qf4.

Quote:
Hi Dean, thanks for your kind comments, (all comments are welcolm, good or bad!)
'12.. dxc4 13. e3 Na5 14. Qa4 b6 15. Kg1 Qd7 16. Qc2 Ba6 17. Bh3!? (idea d5) Qd6
18. e5 Qd7 19. Ne4 Rf8 20. Bd2 Nb7 21. Rd1 with pressure based on d5 ideas (21.. c6? 22. Qa4)'
I believe 14...c5 is a decent improvement here.


I'd like to see how 14...c5 15.Nxc4 works for Black because i just don't see it yet....
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #89 - 02/19/10 at 22:47:36
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Ametanoitos wrote on 02/16/10 at 22:40:06:
I also like 7...Ne4 8.Nxe4 fxe4 9.Nd2 d5 10.f3 exf3 11.Nxf3 Nc6 12.Be3 (12.b3 Bd7!) 12...Na5N an idea of Tony Ro (now 12...Bd7 is answered by 13.cxd5 and 14.Qb3!) which the new strong engine FireBird 1.1 (much stronger than Rybka 3!) really likes.


I think this is close to equality. After 12. ... Na5!?

1) 13. Ne5 Rxf1 it should be ok for black. 14. Qxf1 Bf6
2) 13. cxd Nc4 = ... ?!

Or is there any other good idea for white ? I hope not...  Wink

I also see that the 10th move Nc6!? is very critical and exf3 ist the main alternative for black.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #88 - 02/17/10 at 02:41:13
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1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Bxd2+ 6.Qxd2 d6 7.Nf3 Qe7 8.Nc3 e5 9.dxe5 dxe5 10.0-0 c6 11 Rad1 e4 12 Nd4 Ng4!? and now 13.f3 (strong centers can be broken down) e3 14.Qc2 Nf2 15.Nxf5 Bxf5 16.Qxf5 Nxd1 17.Rxd1 Nd7 18.Ne4 and White is the one with attacking chances. Other moves than 14...Nf2 don't look attractive because pawn e3 will become a weakness while other moves then 13...e3 open up the position even further, when Black's lack of development becomes a huge problem.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #87 - 02/16/10 at 22:40:06
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No, not a specific reason. Mainly 7...Qe8 8.Re1 and 8.b4 concerned me but i never really tried to make this my main weapon against 1.d4. Btw i ordered the DW book and Simon's DVD so maybe i'll start studying this defense in some depth. I also like 7...Ne4 8.Nxe4 fxe4 9.Nd2 d5 10.f3 exf3 11.Nxf3 Nc6 12.Be3 (12.b3 Bd7!) 12...Na5N an idea of Tony Ro (now 12...Bd7 is answered by 13.cxd5 and 14.Qb3!) which the new strong engine FireBird 1.1 (much stronger than Rybka 3!) really likes.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #86 - 02/16/10 at 14:02:15
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Psycho-Cowboy wrote on 02/16/10 at 12:24:39:
Hi all,
In reply to Amentanoitos 'Why you don't like 7...a5? Is due a specific variation?':
Well I am not sure where you got that impression from.
I do like this variation it has always been a favourite of mine. It is obviously good to have a back up though.


He didn't mean you, he was responding to my comment that I was switching from 7...a5 to 7...Qe8.

On that note the coverage of 7...Qe8 on the DVD has been very useful, and so far I really don't see many problems with it, certainly not as a practical weapon.

@Ametanoitos:
I should ask you the same question back! Why you don't like 7...Qe8? Is due a specific variation?  Wink
  

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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #85 - 02/16/10 at 12:24:39
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Hi all,

Juts thought that I would try to answer some of the questions that people have asked:

In reply to Amentanoitos 'Why you don't like 7...a5? Is due a specific variation?':
Well I am not sure where you got that impression from.
I do like this variation it has always been a favourite of mine. It is obviously good to have a back up though.
Saying that, a part of does believe that 7...Ne4 should be the best move.

In reply to the main line: 7...Ne4 8 Nxe4! fxe4 9 Nd2 10 f3 Nc6 11 fxe4 Rxf1+ I am still most worried about 12 Nxf1. All the other options look fine for Black, but like I mentioned before 12...dxc4 13 Be3 Bd7 may be ok for Black but I still suspect that White has a small edge due to his strong centre.

I am pretty convinced that all lines starting with 10...e3 are bad for Black, sorry Tony, this annoyed me as well!

In response to MNb: 'Hangover or no hangover, there is no reason to feel too bad about a loss against someone like Svidler. It is just that I - and probably a few others - think Svidler's play against you examplary.'
Svidler's play was examplary, he is a class act and his early Nd2 made me doubt the whole line with an early ...Bb4+
'You recommend 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Bxd2+ 6.Qxd2 d6 7.Bg2 Qe7 8.Nc3 e5 in your book. Isn't White better after 9.dxe5 dxe5 10.0-0 and 11.Nd5 like Magerramov-Laketic, 1991 ? Eg 10...Nc6 (Laketic castled) 11.Nd5 Nxd5 12.cxd5 Nd8 13.Rac1'
I guess you mean 7 Nf3  Wink
This line looks fine for Black to me. 10...Nc6? is a clear error a much more natural move would have been 10...c6 (to take control of the d5 square) For example, 11 Rad1 e4 12 Nd4 Ng4!?
White is ahead in development but Black has a strong pawn formation.

Hi Dean, thanks for your kind comments, (all comments are welcolm, good or bad!)
'12.. dxc4 13. e3 Na5 14. Qa4 b6 15. Kg1 Qd7 16. Qc2 Ba6 17. Bh3!? (idea d5) Qd6
18. e5 Qd7 19. Ne4 Rf8 20. Bd2 Nb7 21. Rd1 with pressure based on d5 ideas (21.. c6? 22. Qa4)'
I believe 14...c5 is a decent improvement here.

Anyway happy hunting in the Dutch. One thing is for sure the Dutch is an interesting way to meet 1 d4, it will give you attacking chances.
Any positive effect is that you should have a better idea about what is going on compared to your opponent.

Cheers for now:

Simon Williams GM
www.gingergm.com
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #84 - 02/03/10 at 14:58:21
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I think that 12.Kxf1 is not a big problem. There is also analysis bu Gm Roiz at megabase that seems reasonable. I spent last night analysing this position and i found equality for Black in all lines except 12.Bxf1! any idea here?
  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #83 - 02/02/10 at 23:56:58
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Psycho-Cowboy wrote on 02/02/10 at 08:49:00:
Hi everyone. I have just been having a quick look at 12 Kxf1?! in the variation given above. (I expect that 10...Nc6 may be Black's best try)
My first impression of this move is that it can not offer White anything, moving the king to f1 looks rather odd. I would suggest that Black plays the simple 12...dxc4 when I would be happy playing with the Black pieces, for example, 13 Nxc4 b5!? 14 e5 Bb7 15 Na3 Bxa3 16 bxa3 Rb8 and Black is ready to move the knight on c6 when White's king will be feeling rather exposed.
Or: 13 e3 Na5!? with a quick ...c5 to follow. I have only briefly looked at this line but it does not concern me as much as some of the other variations.
On the subject of my game against Markus. I did not feel that I was a lot worse, if I was worse at all and I would be happy to play down this variation again.
And my game against Svidler, well that was painful! You have to remember it was a morning game in Ireland and the tendency to drink too much the night before is very high!
I still played very badly and Svidler's approach has put me off playing this way in the future. It still might be very playable. One thing is for sure, Nd2 is the best way of meeting an early ...Bb4+

Simon Williams GM
www.gingergm.com


First I'd like to say that I am a big fan of your book about Classical Dutch. Partly outdated of course, but still very usable. Let's remember that todays chess SW+HW is like 500 ELO stronger than 2003 Smiley

Regarding the 12. Kxf1:

The reason why I think it arguably is the best move is that neither of the 4 pieces belongs on f1. But unlike the other 3 moves, K being on f1 doesn't really lose anything in the center battle.

An example variation:

12.. dxc4 13. e3 Na5 14. Qa4 b6 15. Kg1 Qd7 16. Qc2 Ba6 17. Bh3!? (idea d5) Qd6
18. e5 Qd7 19. Ne4 Rf8 20. Bd2 Nb7 21. Rd1 with pressure based on d5 ideas (21.. c6? 22. Qa4)

c5 isn't easily accomplished and black has that weak e6 pawn.



  
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Re: Classical Dutch: State of Play
Reply #82 - 02/02/10 at 10:34:43
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Psycho-Cowboy wrote on 02/02/10 at 08:49:00:
One thing is for sure, Nd2 is the best way of meeting an early ...Bb4+

That is something all players of the Dutch seem to agree on, no matter their strength.
Hangover or no hangover, there is no reason to feel too bad about a loss against someone like Svidler. It is just that I - and probably a few others - think Svidler's play against you examplary.
After my remark that your book underestimates the importance of a lead in development I have a concrete question for you that illustrates this. You recommend 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Bxd2+ 6.Qxd2 d6 7.Bg2 Qe7 8.Nc3 e5 in your book. Isn't White better after 9.dxe5 dxe5 10.0-0 and 11.Nd5 like Magerramov-Laketic, 1991 ? Eg 10...Nc6 (Laketic castled) 11.Nd5 Nxd5 12.cxd5 Nd8 13.Rac1. This has lead me to the conclusion that Black indeed should castle before playing ...e5 in this variation.
A patzer should never let a chance go being told by a GM why his/her chess thinking is wrong!
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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