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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Czech Benoni coverage (Read 24162 times)
IMJohnCox
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Re: Czech Benoni coverage
Reply #45 - 05/02/07 at 11:29:59
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I thought it was quite nice until I turned Fritz on. Turned out my combination led to a forced draw and threw all my advantage away – the machine has some line where it just allows Nf7+ and the double check, then it goes ..Kg8; knight moves, ..Kh8, 0.00 and what’s your point? It was right too, as usual.

Even bearing that in mind, all downhill from there. Nice place though, saw a red squirrel, good food, awesome igloo and I was very proud of my ascent of the hill behind the hotel.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Czech Benoni coverage
Reply #44 - 05/02/07 at 02:17:44
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IMJohnCox wrote on 05/01/07 at 22:27:35:
It was in the last round. I didn't lose, but only because my opponent passed up a few winning opportunities and was most unjustly defeated.


Ah, I think they were missing some last-round game scores.  I must say I liked your first round game, though ...
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Czech Benoni coverage
Reply #43 - 05/01/07 at 22:27:35
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It was in the last round. I didn't lose, but only because my opponent passed up a few winning opportunities and was most unjustly defeated.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Czech Benoni coverage
Reply #42 - 05/01/07 at 15:11:42
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IMJohnCox wrote on 05/01/07 at 10:56:04:
I’d have thought Black’s fundamental improvement on Atalik-Ree, if he wants to play the Czech Benoni, would be 2…c5. Even in such positions losing a whole tempo is unhelpful.

I got totally outplayed after 5…g6 at Gausdal recently. Am I the only one who plays the White side of these positions like a baby?


Black's loss of tempo with the c-pawn could end up being compensated by White's Be3 and Bh6 (instead of Bh6 in one go), though.

Indeed, I wonder how Black would play after 5...g6 6. f3, aiming for that g4 Saemisch line Inn2 mentioned (which goes back to that old Uhlmann game or whatever it was).  Something like 6...Nh5 7. Be3 Be7 8. Qd2 f5, I suppose.
(I take it the loss you [John] mentioned wasn't at the recently completed Gausdal tournament, unless I missed something.)
  
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lnn2
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Re: Czech Benoni coverage
Reply #41 - 05/01/07 at 12:22:49
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Hello,

think after 5... g6 , expanding on the kingside with the h3/g4 plan makes sense (see Dunnington).
The reason why the h3/g4 plan is better against 5... g6 than 5... Be7 is that in the latter case Black has more options with his kingside pawns, including the ...h5/...h4 restraining moves in Kazhgaleyev-Nisipeanu. These are probably not so good in the case of 5... g6 i think, since Black does not have Nf8-Ng6, and White can go f2-f4 when the Black knight on f6 and pawn d6 is weaker than usual with the black fianchetto setup.
Another point is that often in KID positions, Black responds to g2-g4 in kind by also playing on the "wrong side of the board" with c7-c6, but here c5 is already in, so that's impossible. As an analogy: Chris Ward recommends in his Samisch KID book the following line 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3 0-0 6. Be3 e5 7. d5 c5 8. g4!

@Michael: i don't know precisely what to do after 5... Be7 6. g3 since i play this way as White! Perhaps a plan involving Ne8-g6-Ng7-f5 like in Portisch-Nisipeanu is good enough, at least according to Giddens in NICyb80 survey.

p.s. John i'm contributing to this thread because am hoping someone can correct my infantile understanding of these positions..
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Czech Benoni coverage
Reply #40 - 05/01/07 at 10:56:04
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I’d have thought Black’s fundamental improvement on Atalik-Ree, if he wants to play the Czech Benoni, would be 2…c5. Even in such positions losing a whole tempo is unhelpful.

I got totally outplayed after 5…g6 at Gausdal recently. Am I the only one who plays the White side of these positions like a baby?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Czech Benoni coverage
Reply #39 - 05/01/07 at 09:56:04
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Maybe Inn2 or someone could tell us what Black's best line might be against 6 g3 (6 ...0-0 7 Bg2 or 7 Bh3)?
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Czech Benoni coverage
Reply #38 - 05/01/07 at 05:06:00
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lnn2 wrote on 04/30/07 at 23:16:04:
yeah f4 is well-known in the positions where White plays Nc3 without c4, think the inclusion of c4/Nf6 helps Black control the dark-squares: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e5 4. Nc3 d6 5. e4 Be7 6. f4 exf4 7. Bxf4 0-0 8. Nf3 Nh5! 9. Be3 Bf6 10. Qd2 Qe7 (Raetsky/Chetverik says this is okay for Black)

There is also the White classical approach, e.g. 3. d5 e5 4. Nc3 d6 5. e4 Be7 6. Be2 0-0 7. Nf3 Ne8 8. 0-0 Nd7 9. Ne1 g6 10. Nd3 f5 11.f4!? where R/C prefers White.
I also saw the following game annotated in CBM116 recently:

S.Atalik (2583) - M. Vukic (2504) Zenica 2006

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 d6 3. Nf3 Nbd7 4. Nc3 c6 5. e4 e5 6. Be2 Be7 7. O-O O-O 8. Be3
a6 9. d5 c5

Here we get a Czech Benoni type of position, Atalik says Hans Ree has perfected White's play with the following line:

10. Rb1 Ne8 11. b4 b6 12. bxc5 bxc5 13. Qd2 g6 14. Bh6 Ng7 15. Ne1
Kh8 16. Kh1 Nf6 17. Nd3 Ng8 18. Be3 Qc7 19. f4! "+-" according to Atalik.

Any ideas how to handle these positions for Black?


Well, I see that in the second R/C line, ECO likes 10...Bg5 instead of 10...f5.  It quotes Sanguinetti-Jansa 1968 as being equal after 11. a3 Bxc1 12. Qxc1 Ng7 13. f4 exf4 14. Qxf4 Qe7 15. Rae1
f6 16. Nb5 Ne8 17. Bg4 Nb6 18. Bxc8 Rxc8 19. b3 a6 20. Nc3 Nd7.

As for the Atalik/Ree thing, my first thought would be that Black should be better off by missing out (as I think the Brits say) ...a6.  Maybe that's supported by the fact that in that Old Indian line/move order, ECO doesn't like 9...c5, preferring 9...cd.   The closest Czech Benoni comparison in that book seems to be Winants-Seirawan 1986, which it thinks was equal after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e5 4. Nc3 d6 5. e4 Be7 6. Nf3 Nbd7 7. a3 O-O 8. Be2 Ne8 9.
O-O g6 10. Bh6 Ng7 11. Qd2 Nf6 12. Ne1 Kh8 13. Nd3 Ng8 14. Be3 f5 15. f4 exf4 16.
Bxf4 fxe4 17. Nxe4 Nf6 18. Nxf6 Bxf6 19. g4 b5 20. Bg5 Bxg5 21. Qxg5 Bd7.

 
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Czech Benoni coverage
Reply #37 - 04/30/07 at 23:49:42
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I'll be brief, because the Czech Benoni is very much more interesting than the 'whilst' question, but I've never come across the (highly dubious!) distinction Paddy mentions, and I'd be interested to hear what the source of it might be. The traditional distinction in UK editorial practice is between cases where the word following 'while' begins with a consonant and those where it begins with a vowel, with 'whilst' being allowed only in the latter case. I say 'traditional' because even if a vowel follows it 'whilst' is often considered rather old-fashioned -- though there can certainly be two opinions here and it's much more defensible than 'amongst', which is rightly regarded as fussy irrespective of how the following word begins.
  
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Re: Czech Benoni coverage
Reply #36 - 04/30/07 at 23:16:04
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yeah f4 is well-known in the positions where White plays Nc3 without c4, think the inclusion of c4/Nf6 helps Black control the dark-squares: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e5 4. Nc3 d6 5. e4 Be7 6. f4 exf4 7. Bxf4 0-0 8. Nf3 Nh5! 9. Be3 Bf6 10. Qd2 Qe7 (Raetsky/Chetverik says this is okay for Black)

There is also the White classical approach, e.g. 3. d5 e5 4. Nc3 d6 5. e4 Be7 6. Be2 0-0 7. Nf3 Ne8 8. 0-0 Nd7 9. Ne1 g6 10. Nd3 f5 11.f4!? where R/C prefers White.
I also saw the following game annotated in CBM116 recently:

S.Atalik (2583) - M. Vukic (2504) Zenica 2006

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 d6 3. Nf3 Nbd7 4. Nc3 c6 5. e4 e5 6. Be2 Be7 7. O-O O-O 8. Be3
a6 9. d5 c5

Here we get a Czech Benoni type of position, Atalik says Hans Ree has perfected White's play with the following line:

10. Rb1 Ne8 11. b4 b6 12. bxc5 bxc5 13. Qd2 g6 14. Bh6 Ng7 15. Ne1
Kh8 16. Kh1 Nf6 17. Nd3 Ng8 18. Be3 Qc7 19. f4! "+-" according to Atalik.

Any ideas how to handle these positions for Black?
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Czech Benoni coverage
Reply #35 - 04/30/07 at 20:20:54
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Whilst playing f4 is traditionally cosidered to be a positional mistake, it does remind me of those f4 moves in John Emms' Feb 06 update that scored so well. Of course, the position is not exactly the same, but even so it does make me wonder ...
  
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Paddy
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Re: Czech Benoni coverage
Reply #34 - 04/30/07 at 19:48:52
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[Sorry to pick, Paddy, but "whilst," really?  I was assured by Cox that this was rare in English usage, yet I see it all the time.

Anyway ontopic, I noticed in my CA database, when recently selecting a move, that an early f4 against the Czech Benoni has done pretty well in practice.  So I made this "mistake" on purpose and won, though I admit that my opponent was much weaker.  My plan had been to return to a serious examination of this move to see what could be made of it.  You're telling me I shouldn't bother?
[/quote]

Markovich,

On the f4 point, I stand by all I wrote earlier. Unless White can find some way of gaining control of e5, 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 c5 3 d5 e5 4 Nc3 d6 5 e4 Be7 6 f4 (6...exf4!) just seems a positional howler.

The only basis for white optimism I can think of is that in positions where this pawn formation arises from the Closed Spanish, playing for f4 has become an established procedure for White. If the Czech Benoni ever becomes really popular, we'll probably see a lot of different ideas being tried by White against it, and maybe the theory will begin to change ("the proof of the pudding..."), but f4 has been regarded as antipositional since at least the 1950s.

In Megabase and TWIC I can find very few examples of the use of 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 c5 3 d5 e5 4 Nc3 d6 5 e4 Be7 6 f4 by 2400-plus players, so I'd be interested to see what you've found.

Of course, it's a different matter altogether in the lines where White plays g3 first, enabling him to recapture on f4 with the pawn and thus control e5

On the linguistic point, where I come from, "whilst" (long ago condemned as obsolescent by Fowler) is still alive and kicking. A linguistic point that to my knowledge is "unbooked" so far is that some of us Brits seem to prefer "while" in the time sense, but "whilst" when we want to stress the contrast (= whereas); not sure how widespread that is, if at all. I find it interesting though.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Czech Benoni coverage
Reply #33 - 04/30/07 at 18:53:01
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[quote author=Paddy link=1154823966/15#22 date=1159834380][quote author=Uberdeker link=1154823966/15#20 date=1159802927]Since the Czech has never been very popular, I don't think much theory has been developped. Against 5. ...g6, I rather like both the plan of 6. Be2 Bg7 ; 7. Bg5 h6 (7. ...0-0 ; 8. Qd2) 8. Bxf6 Qxg7 ; 9. Bg4 followed by h4-h5 and 0-0-0 and that of 6. Be2 Bg7 ; 7. Ktf3 0-0 ; 8. 0-0 followed by Rb1 and b4, meeting ...b6 with a4-a5. Against 5. ...Be7, the unsubtle 6. Be2 0-0 ; 7. f4 seems rather effective.[/quote]


After 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 c5 3 d5 e5 4 Nc3 d6 5 e4 the line with 5...g6 was popular with Argentinian players in the 1950 and even players as strong as Petrosian and Stein dabbled in it, but it never had a wide following, probably because it lacks the flexibility of the "real" King's Indian - Black has shown his cards very early and White can choose how best to respond.

I very much doubt whether 6 Be2 Bg7 7 Bg5 h6 8 Bxf6?! is the way to go for White though. It is nearly always positionally dubious for White to give up the dark-squared bishop in such KID positions.

Against the Czech move 5...Be7, 6 Be2 0-0 7 f4 is positionally very risky for White, since Black captures on f4 then if he plays it right Black will gain control of e5, gaining a useful outpost, whilst White will be left with a backward e-pawn on a half-open file; the f-file is not usually sufficient compensation for White. Hartston called 7 f4 "a very common mistake to make for players who meet the Czech Benoni for the first time"; having said that, it was once played by the Swedish Gm Stahlberg, so our resident over-protection pundit is in good company!

White's most dangerous schemes against the Czech are probably a) g3 lines; b) the set up shown in Popov-Spassky given in an earlier posting.


[/quote]

Sorry to pick, Paddy, but "whilst," really?  I was assured by Cox that this was rare in English usage, yet I see it all the time.

Anyway ontopic, I noticed in my CA database, when recently selecting a move, that an early f4 against the Czech Benoni has done pretty well in practice.  So I made this "mistake" on purpose and won, though I admit that my opponent was much weaker.  My plan had been to return to a serious examination of this move to see what could be made of it.  You're telling me I shouldn't bother?
  

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lnn2
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Re: Czech Benoni coverage
Reply #32 - 04/30/07 at 08:13:33
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anyone seen the new Andrew Martin DVD?

After only working through Giddens survey in NIC i've been venturing the czech benoni with good results, albeit only in online blitz (>2200+). pretty sure the g3 lines are strongest. Imho the Spassky plan with Bd3/h3/g4 is not effective against the Nisipeanu plan of an early ...h5, but maybe i haven't played somebody really strong yet.  Huh
  
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Keano
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Re: Czech Benoni coverage
Reply #31 - 10/25/06 at 09:47:25
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Thanks to Johnny Emms for the excellent update on the Czech Benoni  Cool
  
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