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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Philidor - Antoshin variation (Read 19798 times)
Matemax
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Re: Philidor - Antoshin variation
Reply #24 - 12/19/07 at 08:49:33
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Personally I choose to avoid all this by playing 6...Nc6

I had this move recently in an OTB game - I played 7.Nde2 , brought black out of his comfort zone and finally won Wink

In the analysis after the game we concluded that the principal move for black is 6...d5, but my opponent just made the same remarks as you did.

I think its important to do the theoretical discussion OTB (6...d5) and not to give ground by avoiding it (6...Nc6) - it makes it a lot easier for the opponent. I am not sure what would have happend if my oppenent chose 8...c6

I dont know if 8.Bg2 is a thread to Black, but certainly 6.g3 - and if 6...d5 doesnt work (or it does? Undecided), then Black has to restrict himself to a passive position, for example after 6...Nc6 7.Nde2 - and to be honest, before the game I did not look further here, because I thought "If he doesnt play 6...d5, he will be passive and I have an advantage" - which I could demonstrate by a win  Wink
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Philidor - Antoshin variation
Reply #23 - 12/18/07 at 22:58:12
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Going back to Willempie's earlier analysis, doesn't 9.f4 f6? run into just 10.e6 straight away?  If 10...Nh6 11.Qh5+ Kf8 12.f5 Qe8 13.Qh3 looks hard to meet.

Personally I choose to avoid all this by playing 6...Nc6 which is given by Seel as a back-up choice (at least in the German edition).  It may not equalise completely but it's a safe route to a very playable middlegame with chances to outplay my opponent - and my main reason for playing the Philidor is to get White out of his comfort zone.

But I do find it rather hard to believe that this 8.Bg2 stuff can be a serious threat to Black's position.  Perhaps I've missed a post (or a recent high-level game?) somewhere - is there any reason to reject Seel's suggestion of 8...0-0 ('!N' - Seel)?

Despite TN's slightly derogatory comments, I really like Seel's book - it combines the inspirational with the practical and gives Black a good choice of different ideas against the main lines.
  

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Matemax
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Re: Philidor - Antoshin variation
Reply #22 - 12/18/07 at 08:06:57
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TopNotch wrote on 12/18/07 at 02:27:21:
Nice to see the relatively untested 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7 6. g3 d5 7. e5 Ng4 8. Bg2 c6 finally get an outing, and on such a high level at that.

Also interesting to note was not only how the pattern of play 9.f4 more or less matched the direction taken in this thread, but look how effective and convincing it was. Just further confirmation of some  superficial/lazy/fritzy thinking in Seel's over hyped book as alluded to by me somewhere earlier in this thread, or am I being too harsh.

Tops Smiley

 

I am still not sure about 9.f4 - I always think the prove are clear variations - In your line:
9.f4 O-O 10.h3 Nh6 11.O-O Qb6 12.Kh1 Nf5 13.Nxf5 Bxf5 14.g4 Bc8 15.f5 Nd7 16.Qe2 Qd8 7.Bf4 Re8 18.Qf3 with an advantage to White
Black simple loses a tempo by playing the Queen to b6 - if Black avoids it, there is: 9.f4 O-O 10.h3 Nh6 11.O-O Nf5 12.Nxf5 Bxf5 13.g4 Bc8 14.f5 Nd7 15.Qe2 Re8! - and I think Black could be on top attacking whites overextented pawns

So for the moment I would say: "9.f4 - use with caution"  Smiley
  
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Re: Philidor - Antoshin variation
Reply #21 - 12/18/07 at 07:30:04
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Hi TopNotch,

I thought the thread was impressive immediately that I saw it, and was hoping to use the analysis against an IM who specialises in the line, in a local tournament. (Unfortunately didn,t get the chance to play him).
      Nice coaching towards f4, and the unpositional nature of c6 too.

Bye John S
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Philidor - Antoshin variation
Reply #20 - 12/18/07 at 02:27:21
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Nice to see the relatively untested 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7 6. g3 d5 7. e5 Ng4 8. Bg2 c6 finally get an outing, and on such a high level at that.

Also interesting to note was not only how the pattern of play 9.f4 more or less matched the direction taken in this thread, but look how effective and convincing it was. Just further confirmation of some  superficial/lazy/fritzy thinking in Seel's over hyped book as alluded to by me somewhere earlier in this thread, or am I being too harsh.

Tops Smiley

 
  

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Re: Philidor - Antoshin variation
Reply #19 - 12/17/07 at 19:15:21
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As 9.f4 looks like opening your house and inviting the black pieces I was thinking of the first thoughts: White cant play 9.Bf4 cause Black will play Qb6 with the idea of Qb2 and/or g5 - we havent looked at that, have we?

Seems I have to much time - so I spent an hour (therefore there may be a lot of improvements) with a good friend...


8. ... c6 9.Bf4 Qb6 10.O-O Qxb2
[10. ... g5 11.e6 gxf4 12.Na4 Qa5 13.Qxg4 Qxa4 14.exf7+ Kxf7 15.Nf5 Bf8 (15. ... Bxf5 16.Qxf5+ Bf6 17.Rae1 with an attack - at least a perpetual) 16.Rae1 with an attack]
11.Na4 Qb4 12.c3 Qa5 13.e6 Nf6 14.Rb1 keeping the tension - sometimes White also can play Bb8 followed by Nc6

and now:

1) 14...O-O 15.exf7+ [15.Bxb8 Rxb8 16.Nxc6 bxc6 17.exf7+ Kxf7 18.Rxb8 Ba6 19.Rxf8+ Bxf8! -+] 15. ... Rxf7 16.Bxb8 c5 17.Rb5 Qa6 18.Nxc5 Bxc5 19.Rxc5 Rxb8 20.Rxd5

2) 14. ... Na6 getting away from possible Bb8 15.Nf5 fxe6 16.Nxg7+ Kf7 17.Nh5 b5 18.Nb2

3) 14. ... fxe6 15.Re1 b5 16.Bxb8 Qxa4 17.Qxa4 bxa4 18.Nxc6


Any thoughts? Refutations? Christmas wishes?


but on the other hand Magnus may of course have chosen the right way with 9.f4 Smiley


  
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Dragan Glas
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Re: Philidor - Antoshin variation
Reply #18 - 12/17/07 at 17:36:30
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Greetings,

As I can still edit this post...  Grin

9. e6 followed by 10. Nf5, looks interesting in that it allows White to secure the two bishops, whether with material equality or the sacrifice of the e-pawn.

9. e6, Nf6; 10. Nf5, and now:

10..., Bxe6; 11. Nxg7+, K moves; 12. Nxe6(+), fe; or 11. Nxe7 (possibly better to take the black-squared bishop, given that ..., Qb6 and ..., Bb4 might prove awkward), Qxe7;
10..., ef; 11. Nxg7+, K moves; 12. Nh5 either exchanging the knights or play 13. Nf4 with pressure on the e-pawn.

I was also wondering about 9. Qe2 threatening 10. h3 or, indeed, 10. e6!?

Obviously, 9..., 0-0; is asking for it - 10. h3, Nh6; 11. Bxh6, gh; and Black's kingmay well feel exposed.

As 12. e6?! - with the idea of 12..., Bxe6/fe; 13. Nxe6, fe/Bxe6; 14. Qxe6+ - is met by 12..., f5!?, perhaps 12. f4 or 12. h4 are best first.

White can also castle long, either during this sequence or on move 12, before launching the king-side pawn-storm.

Certainly White's lead in development gives him the edge.

Just a thought! (Not much of one, perhaps...)

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
« Last Edit: 12/17/07 at 20:58:13 by Dragan Glas »  
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Lou_Cyber
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Re: Philidor - Antoshin variation
Reply #17 - 12/17/07 at 15:26:59
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Hi there,

Chesslab has two recent games on GM level; looks like Magnus Carlson is a subscriber, at least he followed this threads finding with 9.f4  Wink

[Event "World Blitz"]
[Site "Moscow RUS"]
[Date "2007.??.??"]
[White "Carlsen,M"]
[Black "Bacrot,E"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2714"]
[BlackElo "2695"]
[ECO "C41"]
[Round "26"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7 6. g3 d5 7. e5 Ng4
8. Bg2 c6 9. f4 Nh6 10. O-O Qc7 11. f5 Qxe5 12. Bxh6 O-O 13. Bf4 Qf6 14. g4 Bc5
15. Nce2 Nd7 16. Kh1 h6 17. c3 Ne5 18. Ng3 Nc4 19. b3 Nb6 20. Nh5 Qh4 21. Bg3 Qg5
22. h4 Qd8 23. Qd2 Bd6 24. Bxd6 Qxd6 25. f6 Bxg4 26. fxg7 Bxh5 27. Nf5 1-0

[Event "8th ch-Euro"]
[Site "Dresden GER"]
[Date "2007.??.??"]
[White "Paehtz,T jr"]
[Black "Pirrot,D"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2318"]
[BlackElo "2420"]
[ECO "C41"]
[Round "7"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7 6. g3 d5 7. e5 Ng4
8. Bg2 c6 9. f4 c5 10. Ndb5 a6 11. Nd6+ Bxd6 12. exd6 d4 13. Qe2+ Kf8 14. Ne4 Nc6
15. f5 h5 16. O-O Nge5 17. Bf4 c4 18. Nd2 d3 19. Qe3 Ng4 20. Qc5 Qa5 21. Qxa5 Nxa5
22. cxd3 c3 23. bxc3 Bxf5 24. Rfe1 f6 25. h4 Rc8 26. c4 Kf7 27. Re7+ Kg6 28. d7 Rcf8
29. Bc7 Nc6 30. Bxc6 bxc6 31. d4 Rd8 32. Bxd8 Rxd8 33. c5 Bxd7 34. Nc4 Nh6 35. Nd6 Bg4
36. Kf2 Rb8 37. Rb7 Rxb7 38. Nxb7 Nf5 39. Rb1 Nxd4 40. Rb6 Kf5 41. Rxa6 Ke4 42. Rb6 Be6
43. a4 Bd5 44. a5 Nb5 45. Nd8 g5 46. a6 Kd4 47. Rxb5 cxb5 48. c6 1-0


  

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Re: Philidor - Antoshin variation
Reply #16 - 09/17/06 at 12:55:01
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TalJechin wrote on 09/15/06 at 11:44:49:
9...Nh6 10.0-0 Nf5 might be black's safest. Though white probably has an edge.

Probably, I would be tempted to play 11. Nxf5 Bxf5 12.g4 as white. I havent calculated anything, but it lookks quite scary for black as castling long seems to be miles away and f5-f6 is all of a sudden a dangerous option.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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TopNotch
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Re: Philidor - Antoshin variation
Reply #15 - 09/15/06 at 17:24:49
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TalJechin wrote on 09/15/06 at 11:44:49:
9...Nh6 10.0-0 Nf5 might be black's safest. Though white probably has an edge.

In defence of Seel, he does offer 8...0-0'!N' 9.0-0 Nxe5 10.Nxd5 Bc5 11.Bf4'!' Bg4'!' etc, as a better alternative. I'm not so fond of that one though (white can force a draw for example), so personally, I would prefer Kosten's 7...Ne4 over Ng4; or more likely not even play 6...d5 - why complicate when you're not ready for it? But this thread is on 8...c6, so I'll shut up now...


Quite right, this thread is about the untested 8...c6 . The other move alternatives you offer have been tested in practice and found to be good for White, in particular Kosten's suggested 7...Ne4 is quite old, he recommended this in his 'Winning With the Philidor' book way back in 1992 and quite a bit has happened since then.

I offer the possible sample continuation: 9.f4 0-0 10.h3 Nh6 11.0-0 Qb6 12.Kh1 Nf5 13.Nxf5 Bxf5 14.g4 Bc8 15.f5 Nd7 16.Qe2 Qd8 17.Bf4 Re8 18.Qf3 with an advantage to White.

No doubt there are improvements for both sides along the way, but this seems to be how the general pattern of play will flow. 

This type of Bayonet attack in front of your own castled position always strikes the inexperienced player as quite bizzare, since they are taught from early never push pawns in front your King unless the centre is blocked. However there is a caveat, that being that if your opponent is tied down and passive with no effective central play then such a pawn storm is justified and often cramps the opponent further. See the game Kasparov - Csom, 1980 for a further illustration of the power of a Pawn Storm in front your own King to immobilise your opponent's pieces.

Topster Smiley  
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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TalJechin
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Re: Philidor - Antoshin variation
Reply #14 - 09/15/06 at 11:44:49
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9...Nh6 10.0-0 Nf5 might be black's safest. Though white probably has an edge.


Quote:
Perhaps Black should play 9...0-0 instead of your 9...f6, nevertheless it looks promising for White and a clear improvement on the lazy Fritz analysis given by Seel. 


In defence of Seel, he does offer 8...0-0'!N' 9.0-0 Nxe5 10.Nxd5 Bc5 11.Bf4'!' Bg4'!' etc, as a better alternative. I'm not so fond of that one though (white can force a draw for example), so personally, I would prefer Kosten's 7...Ne4 over Ng4; or more likely not even play 6...d5 - why complicate when you're not ready for it? But this thread is on 8...c6, so I'll shut up now...
  
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Re: Philidor - Antoshin variation
Reply #13 - 09/15/06 at 10:32:02
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Holbox wrote on 09/15/06 at 09:31:30:
I think black should try to block the kingside on light squares. I mean, 9.f4 h5 and ...g6 winning time to start a counterplay on the queen side with Be6 and c5.


10.h3 looks quite nasty (idea e6 followed by Qxh5)
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Philidor - Antoshin variation
Reply #12 - 09/15/06 at 09:31:30
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I think black should try to block the kingside on light squares. I mean, 9.f4 h5 and ...g6 winning time to start a counterplay on the queen side with Be6 and c5.

  

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Re: Philidor - Antoshin variation
Reply #11 - 09/15/06 at 09:14:10
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I had looked at 9...0-0 but thought it didnt do much to avoid white's basic plan. 10.0-0 seems like a decent enough move. Though chipping in 10.h3 doesnt look that bad either but following it up with an immediate g4 may be a bit over confident.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Philidor - Antoshin variation
Reply #10 - 09/15/06 at 08:36:47
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Now we are getting somewhere.

I agree with you Willempie, 9.f4 does seem to be the critical line. Clearly if White is to make something of this position he has to use his Kingside pawn majority to launch an attack on the King.

Perhaps Black should play 9...0-0 instead of your 9...f6, nevertheless it looks promising for White and a clear improvement on the lazy Fritz analysis given by Seel.

Toppy Smiley
  

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