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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Alekhine as a club weapon (Read 31368 times)
lg
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #48 - 12/31/09 at 17:20:24
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ps: an dif you are interested on this line, see a recent game from the Bundesliga championhio where Karsten Mueller was playing White (www.chessgames.com)
  
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #47 - 12/31/09 at 17:11:29
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Ametanoitos wrote on 12/30/09 at 08:47:41:
I don't have the book so i don't know what his evaluation is, but i think that if Adgestein had played ...Na6 first and after that ...c6 then Caruana could no longer play Qc2 because of ...Nb4. This is the move that was played by Bauer. Does Bogdanov say something about this? (or does he offer alternatives to Caruana's Qc2?). Also i don't know if ...f5 was forced. At a glance ...g6 seems more to the point.

I know Adgestein's original style because we were teamates in the Greek League in 2005 (if i remember correctly the year). I remember clearly a funny story.I asked him his opinion about the Alekhine's defence and i said that i liked the way he beat Adams with it and Simen replyed: "Alekain? I have never played the Alekain!" and he was serious!  Grin


As promised

i) Bogdanov doe snot mention anything about the move order, Na6 first and only then c6

ii) about 8...c6 he says "a rare move, rarity possibly
being its main merit,.....when White replies c5 [after d5] the Knight can drop back to d7 [since the d5 Pawn is defended]

iii) After 9. Qc2, "White takes the opportunity to force the advance of one of Black's kingside pawns"

iv) after 9...f5, the least obliging reply seems to be 9...h6. ... computer chess has lowered the importance of general considerations (of the hole in e6 type) in favour of a greater focus on specifics. In fact, the move played by Black is not devoid of certain merits, such as the control of the e4 square."

  
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #46 - 12/30/09 at 10:09:02
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I am answering without having the book near me but I will check it later on.
I dont recalls eeing anything about the move order you mentioned before. As you can see in another thread, I am not too fond of this book. However,
since i have seen here a good comment on the ook by someone I respect a lot, you might consider that I might be suffering of an attack of "shortsightness" and not being able to see through the book.

About f5, I recall he mentioning the more normal h6 instead. I will get back to you later on.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #45 - 12/30/09 at 08:47:41
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I don't have the book so i don't know what his evaluation is, but i think that if Adgestein had played ...Na6 first and after that ...c6 then Caruana could no longer play Qc2 because of ...Nb4. This is the move that was played by Bauer. Does Bogdanov say something about this? (or does he offer alternatives to Caruana's Qc2?). Also i don't know if ...f5 was forced. At a glance ...g6 seems more to the point.

I know Adgestein's original style because we were teamates in the Greek League in 2005 (if i remember correctly the year). I remember clearly a funny story.I asked him his opinion about the Alekhine's defence and i said that i liked the way he beat Adams with it and Simen replyed: "Alekain? I have never played the Alekain!" and he was serious!  Grin
  
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #44 - 12/29/09 at 20:59:53
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Ametanoitos wrote on 12/29/09 at 09:05:12:
At club level in my area over the 80% of white players play the exch var and after ...exd6 the plan with Nc3+Bd3+Nge2. I always liked the game Emms-Davies, 2002 where Davies played Nc6+Nb4+c6+Nb4-a6+d5 eventually, so i am curious why a system with c6+Na6 (not Nc6) is more popular. Examples are Caruana-Adgenstein (Black should play Na6 first and then c6 where Qc2 was not so good) and the model game is Paci-Bauer, 2006.

I was wondering what the foroum experts can advice us what to play against this system of White and if they know any drawback of the "Adgestein-Bauer" system, Thanks


Well, the latest book by Bogdanov covers the game Caruana-Adgenstein
  
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #43 - 12/29/09 at 09:05:12
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At club level in my area over the 80% of white players play the exch var and after ...exd6 the plan with Nc3+Bd3+Nge2. I always liked the game Emms-Davies, 2002 where Davies played Nc6+Nb4+c6+Nb4-a6+d5 eventually, so i am curious why a system with c6+Na6 (not Nc6) is more popular. Examples are Caruana-Adgenstein (Black should play Na6 first and then c6 where Qc2 was not so good) and the model game is Paci-Bauer, 2006.

I was wondering what the foroum experts can advice us what to play against this system of White and if they know any drawback of the "Adgestein-Bauer" system, Thanks
  
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #42 - 12/22/09 at 07:32:52
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One of the reasons I left the Pirc for the Alekhine is just that white has less influence on how the game will be like.
In the Pirc, white can really go for the type of position he likes to play: positionnal, aggressive, wild, going for a forced draw in a few moves or even going into a closed sicilian. Black must be able to adapt himself to all these setups.
In the Alekhine, white has of course a wide range of choice but in each of them Blacks keeps some vicious possibilities and the idea's in each variation are quite close to each other.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #41 - 12/21/09 at 13:15:19
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Matemax wrote on 12/20/09 at 10:34:17:
Quote:

The main trouble with the Alekhine is that White gets most of the choices in dictating the character of the game. If White wants to play something sharp and scary like the Four Pawns, something more restrained like the Exchange Variation, or put a bind on the Black position with the Chase Variation, Black can hardly avoid it.

"You can't always get what you want" (Mick Jagger) - but you get an unbalanced game with Black starting with 1...Nf6. In every opening there is a choice between positional and dynamic lines - this should not bother you, it's just how chess is.

I would just like to add that black as well has his say regarding the charachter of the game in the Alekhine. If white plays 4.Nf3 black can choose between a number of very different systems (4...Bg4 5.Be2 e6, 4...Bg4 5.Be2 c6, 4...dxe5 5.Nxe5 Nd7!?, 4...dxe5 5.Nxe5 c6, 4...dxe5 5.Nxe5 g6, 4...g6, 4...Nc6) and against the exchange black can recapture with either pawn, with a fundamentally different position in either case.
My point is that white can not by himself chose the nature of the battle, but this rather emerges interactively (as in all openings really).
  
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #40 - 12/21/09 at 07:42:40
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As Gurevich once stated when analysing a game (I think he played a Pirc with black): "And now I have complications". I think the Alekhine is all about this. Black gets a complicated position in which he feels a little bit more at home than white and hopes this will help him win the game.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #39 - 12/20/09 at 10:34:17
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Quote:

The main trouble with the Alekhine is that White gets most of the choices in dictating the character of the game. If White wants to play something sharp and scary like the Four Pawns, something more restrained like the Exchange Variation, or put a bind on the Black position with the Chase Variation, Black can hardly avoid it.

"You can't always get what you want" (Mick Jagger) - but you get an unbalanced game with Black starting with 1...Nf6. In every opening there is a choice between positional and dynamic lines - this should not bother you, it's just how chess is.
  
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #38 - 12/20/09 at 09:28:41
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As a player now rated 1396, I have played the Alekhine as my main weapon against 1.e4, and it have built up a slight plus score as Black with 1...Nf6.

2.Nc3 is very common at the club level, and I agree with both Davies' and Cox's books who recommend transposing to the Vienna with 2...e5. In fact, four out of six of my opponents have then continued with 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.Bc4?! Nxe4, which is an indication that many White players at this level have no clue as to what they should be doing.

The troublesome lines such as the Voronezh (1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.c4 Nb6 4.d4 d6 5.exd6 cxd6 6.Nc3 g6 7.Be3 Bg7 8.Rc1 0-0 9.b3) pop up relatively rarely in my experience, but it becomes more and more common as the players get stronger. However, even if White does play one of the critical lines, games are rarely decided in the opening, so in most games there should be plenty of oppurtunity to make a tough fight out of it, even if White emerges with a +0.5 advantage. (In the one and only game where I have faced the Voronezh, White eventually emerged with a +6.0 advantage, but I still won it...)

The main trouble with the Alekhine is that White gets most of the choices in dictating the character of the game. If White wants to play something sharp and scary like the Four Pawns, something more restrained like the Exchange Variation, or put a bind on the Black position with the Chase Variation, Black can hardly avoid it.
  
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #37 - 12/15/09 at 08:29:54
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dfan wrote on 12/14/09 at 21:22:29:
I played the Alekhine a fair bit at around that level.  75% of my opponents played the exchange variation (1 e4 Nf6 2 e5 Nd5 3 c4 Nb6 4 d4 d6 5 exd6).  I didn't find it that exciting and ended up moving on, but my results were decent enough.

I have played the Alekhine for a bit more than one year at my level (1800-1900) and the results are quite good: 7 wins, 6 draws (mainly in the first games) and only 2 losses. Cox says somewhere in his book that you can reach positions where white can easily go wrong (or something like this) and at this level it is probably quite true. Optically white stands better after 10-15 moves but in fact it is never as easy as it likes. Most white players try then to overpush, they make interesting sacs (but for who? Wink) and get it very difficult when back counters. Such situation are psychologically also difficult to handle for white and even if they objectively do not stand worse they begin fearing for a los. One of my opponent said once after he lost against me: I was master of the game and I cannot directly see where I made a mistake. He was quite desperated...
So, yes, the Alekhine is certainly a good weapon under 2000.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #36 - 12/14/09 at 22:24:02
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I played ...exd6, as it seemed to suit me better for a reason I can't recall.  Probably ...cxd6 would have made my experience more exciting!

I forgot to mention that at this level, Cox's Starting Out book is excellent and I didn't feel a need to supplement it with anything.
  
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #35 - 12/14/09 at 21:30:31
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I think it's a fine club weapon.  If I had just one thing to say about it, it's about winning in the ending.  Don't expect too many quick wins, though naturally enough, they do sometimes occur.

This is a wolverine of a defense, so play it in a tenacious, dogged spirit.

@dfan:  did you play ...exd6 or ...cxd6?
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: Alekhine as a club weapon
Reply #34 - 12/14/09 at 21:22:29
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I played the Alekhine a fair bit at around that level.  75% of my opponents played the exchange variation (1 e4 Nf6 2 e5 Nd5 3 c4 Nb6 4 d4 d6 5 exd6).  I didn't find it that exciting and ended up moving on, but my results were decent enough.
  
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