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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) B36-B39: Any Accelerated Dragon fan here? (Read 30803 times)
TicklyTim
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Re: Any Accelerated Dragon fan here?
Reply #54 - 02/22/11 at 12:20:23
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Have just been reading an interesting article online (apologies if it's common knowledge already).

http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_opng_anlys/Acc_Dragon_Alive_and_Well.html

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Bc4
he then covers
7...Qa5
7...0-0 8.Bb3 d6 9.h3
&
7...0-0 8.Bb3 a5

So a bit of something for everyone!
  
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Re: Any Accelerated Dragon fan here?
Reply #53 - 02/15/11 at 22:21:20
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I like playing the accelerated dragon in a more positional manner with 7. Qa5 against the main line and actually also the gurgenidze system against the maroczy, but since there are such a lot of options I like to vary myself a bit. My main alternative is perhaps the more classical lines which I also like for black, the Qb6-d8 h5, Kh7, Qh8/f8 maneuver never seizes to amaze me.  Smiley
  

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Re: Any Accelerated Dragon fan here?
Reply #52 - 02/02/11 at 13:59:21
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Paddy wrote on 10/20/10 at 18:37:36:
MNb wrote on 10/20/10 at 11:17:21:
Yeah, but if that defence with ...Qc7 is so reliable, why can't I find it back in my books on the (Classical) Dragon? Why is after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be2 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Nb3 Nc6 9.Be3 the move Qc7 so impopular? It's exactly the same as 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Bc4 Qa5 8.0-0 0-0 9.Nb3 Qc7 10.Be2 d6.
Or should we conclude that 7...Qa5 invites a superior version of the Classical Dragon for White?


Agreed, it is certainly not ideal for Black that his queen is on c7 in this structure, but it is not a disaster either. After all the queen goes to c7 in many other Sicilian lines.

Statistically Black has done OK after 9...Qc7: out of about 500 games in Megabase Black has scored 46%. The games in megabase also show hat some very strong players have been prepared to play the black side, at least from time to time.

Analytically the situation may be more worrying for Black, but at present I would be more concerned  about 10 Bg5 than 10 Be2.


10 Bg5 looks interesting with the clear idea of gaining control of d5 after Bxf6. Ivanchuk has played this line as Black, with 10 ...a6!? and after 11 Be2 d6!? 12 Bxf6 he took back with the pawn, 12 ...exf6 (in a game against Karjakin, 2005).

I like the idea of 10 ...e6!? here (partly because I play the Kan). It weakens d6, but it seems hard for White to exploit at the moment.

Anyway, why would Black have to play 10 Be2 d6.? Isn't the whole idea to try to go for ...d5 in one go? Greet and Davies both recommend ...b6 following Be2, but after White has played f4 IIRC. Maybe that could be tried against Be2, which to me seems non-critical. Greet only gives 10 f4 d6 11 Be2, which makes more sense, since Black has to protect e5. And as mentioned, here he gives 11 ...b6.

I don't know too much about this, still trying to learn the Accelerated Dragon to have as a back-up for my Kan.
  
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Re: Any Accelerated Dragon fan here?
Reply #51 - 01/16/11 at 16:12:11
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I like the Uogele variation since the beginning (of my practice) where at the time, the biggest challenge was 9.f3. I often search how to equalize against 9.0-0, the real today's challenge, and I think I almost found the equality with 9..a4 against Khalifman's idea, and it was not easy even with Fire1.31's help. The key was to find a position that is not a true transposition of 11.Nb5 while using the weakness of the 11.c4 move order. Now I am looking to get equality against 11.Nb5 and I have not found the path yet. Of course I have looked at 11..d5!? with interest and my result at the moment is: almost equal against 12.Bb6 Qd7 13.Nc7 but I could not find how to equalize against 13.Qe2! instead (it has been played only once according to chesslive, with a win for White (2400+). 12.f3!? is not bad at all, and after 12..d4 13.Nxd4 fxe4, equality is not that clear despite the 2 draws at master level (one of them is Khalifman himself as Black in 2009!).

So at the moment, it seems that 11..d5 is a nice try in practice but still not equalizing. If someone can find something against 12.Bb6 Qd7 13.Qe2!, is comment is welcome! Still searching to equalize with the Uogele...
  
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Re: Any Accelerated Dragon fan here?
Reply #50 - 10/20/10 at 22:01:37
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As I had noted Black's decent score as well I am a tad disappointed you agree so quickly. When I looked at 10.Be2 superficially it seemed quite difficult to me to prove an edge.

10.Bg5 runs the risk of playing another Classical Dragon with a tempo down if White has to withdraw the bishop to e2 later. But the immediate positional threat Bxf6 and Nd5 seems more urgent at the moment.
So Whities who strive for the Jugoslav Attack have viable options other than transposing to a Bc4, h3 setup after 7...Qa5. Does that setup already have a name by the way? If not I propose Short Attack, as the English GM has been quite fond of it.
« Last Edit: 10/21/10 at 00:22:05 by MNb »  

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Re: Any Accelerated Dragon fan here?
Reply #49 - 10/20/10 at 18:37:36
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MNb wrote on 10/20/10 at 11:17:21:
Yeah, but if that defence with ...Qc7 is so reliable, why can't I find it back in my books on the (Classical) Dragon? Why is after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be2 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Nb3 Nc6 9.Be3 the move Qc7 so impopular? It's exactly the same as 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Bc4 Qa5 8.0-0 0-0 9.Nb3 Qc7 10.Be2 d6.
Or should we conclude that 7...Qa5 invites a superior version of the Classical Dragon for White?


Agreed, it is certainly not ideal for Black that his queen is on c7 in this structure, but it is not a disaster either. After all the queen goes to c7 in many other Sicilian lines.

Statistically Black has done OK after 9...Qc7: out of about 500 games in Megabase Black has scored 46%. The games in megabase also show hat some very strong players have been prepared to play the black side, at least from time to time.

Analytically the situation may be more worrying for Black, but at present I would be more concerned  about 10 Bg5 than 10 Be2.
  
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Re: Any Accelerated Dragon fan here?
Reply #48 - 10/20/10 at 11:17:21
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Yeah, but if that defence with ...Qc7 is so reliable, why can't I find it back in my books on the (Classical) Dragon? Why is after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be2 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Nb3 Nc6 9.Be3 the move Qc7 so impopular? It's exactly the same as 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Bc4 Qa5 8.0-0 0-0 9.Nb3 Qc7 10.Be2 d6.
Or should we conclude that 7...Qa5 invites a superior version of the Classical Dragon for White?
  

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Re: Any Accelerated Dragon fan here?
Reply #47 - 10/20/10 at 10:33:23
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bragesjo wrote on 10/20/10 at 09:18:28:
While I dont consider myself an expert on accelerated Dragon, at line a the great Khalifman recommended 11 c4 claiming an slightly edge (probebly becouse of space advantage) and avoiding d5. I think that de la Villa recommended entering Nb5 d5 line anyway.

Also the the Nb3 line leeds to a position from classical Dragon where white has got an extra tempo and if black  has retreated to c7 the queen is on a  square that rules out any Rxc3 lines. However, it is still not clear  if that tempo is actually a concret advantage of not.



This is all true but I would add that in the Nb3 Qc7 lines White often ends up returning the tempo by moving the bishop from c4. Hence the line(s) where White tries to show that he does not need to retreat the bishop are critical.

Even in the Bb3 line the black queen can be a problem. On a5 it blocks the advance of the a-pawn as well as preventing ...Na5; hence the experiments by Stein and others to switch the queen to h5 in some lines.
  
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Re: Any Accelerated Dragon fan here?
Reply #46 - 10/20/10 at 09:18:28
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While I dont consider myself an expert on accelerated Dragon, at line a the great Khalifman recommended 11 c4 claiming an slightly edge (probebly becouse of space advantage) and avoiding d5. I think that de la Villa recommended entering Nb5 d5 line anyway.

Also the the Nb3 line leeds to a position from classical Dragon where white has got an extra tempo and if black  has retreated to c7 the queen is on a  square that rules out any Rxc3 lines. However, it is still not clear  if that tempo is actually a concret advantage of not.

  
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Re: Any Accelerated Dragon fan here?
Reply #45 - 10/19/10 at 18:17:45
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I don't have much to contribute on 7...Qa5 8.0-0 0-0 9.Nb3, but I concluded long ago that I would prefer to be White after either 9.Nb3 or 9.Bb3 (though I admit I haven't seen the Huerga Leache survey). I consider Black's most promising ways to play the 5.Nc3 Acc nowadays to be:

a) 7...0-0 8.Bb3 a5!? and after the oft-recommended 9.0-0 a4 10.Nxa4 Nxe4 11.Nb5, 11...d5! gives black dynamic play, apparently with equal chances. Accordingly some White players have switched back to 8...a5 9.f3 d5 10.Bxd5 in search of advantage.

b) 7...0-0 8.Bb3 d6 9.f3 Bd7, switching to a Yugoslav Dragon. Black will reach the Soltis, Topalov or main Kb1 lines, depending on both sides' choices. There is also 10.Qd2 Nxd4!? 11.Bxd4 b5 when compared to the Topalov variation White can still castle short, but Black isn't committed to ...Rc8.

One thing I've wondered is what happens in this move order if White tries to force a Soltis variation with 10.h4 (or 10.Qd2 Rc8 11.h4) - should Black just accept the transposition with 10...h5 etc. or are there viable alternatives? If there are, Black can get by with relatively little theory by relying on one of the ...Nxd4 lines against 10.Qd2.

9.h3 Bd7 10.0-0 instead is a position (often reached from the 6.Bc4 Dragon) that I'm prepared to play with both colors. But this can't possibly be worse for Black than the 7...Qa5 8.0-0 0-0 9.Bb3 main line, which he can still choose to transpose to.

Whatever White tries after 7...0-0 8.Bb3 d6 Black has avoided a number of Dragon lines he may or may not find unpleasant: 9.0-0-0, the trendy 9.g4!?, the Classical Dragon, 6.g3. The big question is whether the price is right - allowing the Maroczy Bind.
  

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Re: Any Accelerated Dragon fan here?
Reply #44 - 10/11/10 at 14:12:02
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Bumparoonie!
  

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Re: Any Accelerated Dragon fan here?
Reply #43 - 10/07/10 at 20:34:43
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TN wrote on 09/29/10 at 15:16:38:
Personally I quite like the 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Bc4 Qa5 variation for Black. Not only is it very tricky for an unprepared opponent to face, but Black should achieve close to full equality with best play.


What in your opinion should Black do against 8.0-0 0-0 9.Nb3?  De la Villa, as you may know, claims advantage for White here.  (You may also know that 9.Bb3 was treated and considered satisfactory for Black by Huerga Leache in NIC Yearbook 96, the most recent.)  Is it Ivanchuk's line, 9...Qc7 10.Bg5 a6 11.Be2 d6!?, that you favor, or something else?
  

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Re: Any Accelerated Dragon fan here?
Reply #42 - 10/03/10 at 01:31:58
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Schroeder wrote on 10/02/10 at 15:54:53:
Agreed - 13.cxd5 leads to a slightly better position for White. But isn't that good news for Black in a variation that was believed to be completely refuted for decades?

Instead of 11.-Qh4, Black also has 11.-Qe7. Here is a variation that was mentioned by MNb in another thread:


From Khalifman:

11...Qe7 12. Be2 (12. 0-0-0 Nxb5 13. cxb5 d5! 14. exd5 Rd8 15. d6 Qe6 16. Kb1 Bf8 with compensation, B. Lalic - Heim, Slough 1997) Nxb5 13. cxb5 d5 14. exd5 Rd8 15. 0-0 b6 16. Rfd1 Rd6 17. a4 Bb7 18. Bc4 with the idea of a4-a5 +/-, Rowson-Afek, Wijk aan Zee 2000.

Aside from that, some people view lines inescapably better for one side as being refutations, even if the edge is small.

Quote:
Which is the finesse by GM Serper that he speaks of?


No idea.
  

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Re: Any Accelerated Dragon fan here?
Reply #41 - 10/02/10 at 15:54:53
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Agreed - 13.cxd5 leads to a slightly better position for White. But isn't that good news for Black in a variation that was believed to be completely refuted for decades?

Instead of 11.-Qh4, Black also has 11.-Qe7. Here is a variation that was mentioned by MNb in another thread:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 g6 5. c4 Bg7 6. Be3 Nf6 7. Nc3 Ng4 8. Qxg4 Nxd4 9. Qd1 e5 10. Nb5 O-O 11. Qd2 Qe7 12. O-O-O Nxb5 13. cxb5 d5 14. exd5 Rd8 15. d6 Qe6 16. Kb1 Bf8 17. Bc5
17. Qc3 Rxd6 18. Bc4 Rxd1+ 19. Rxd1 Qe7 also looks equal.
17... b6 18. Bb4 Bb7 19. f3 Bxd6
19... Rd7!?
20. Bxd6 Rd7 21. b3 Rad8 22. Bc4 Qf6 23. Qe3 Rxd6 24. Rxd6 Qxd6 25. Re1 e4 26. fxe4 Qxh2
26... Qe5! could be even better
27. e5 Qxg2 28. e6
So far Van Koningsveld - MNB, corr NBC 1995
Be4+! 29. Ka1 fxe6 30. Bxe6+ Kg7=

In his review on the Donaldson/Silman book http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_rb/rb_accelerated_drgns.html, Randy Bauer wrote:

Quote:
From my own perspective, I was disappointed to see that the authors don't have much confidence in 7...Ng4 against the Maroczy Bind (5.c4 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Nc3 Ng4 8.Qxg4 Nxd4 9.Qd1). This was Larsen's favorite (one of my chess heroes!), and the likes of Botvinnik dabbled in it too. Some time back, Silman wrote a survey for the NEW IN CHESS YEARBOOK series suggesting that black may have rehabilitated the line with 9...e5 10.Nb5 0-0 11.Qd2 Qe7 12.0-0-0 Nxb5 13.cxb5 d5 14.exd5 Rd8! (a suggestion of English GM Peter Wells). Unfortunately, a finesse by GM Grigory Serper seems to have put the line back on the junk heap for black.

Interestingly, this particular variation provides one of the few puzzling examples of commentary that I've found in the book. The authors comment, on the choice available to white on his 10th move in the above line, "Not so long ago 10.Nb5 was considered to be a virtual refutation of Black's system and 10.Bd3 was thought to be relatively harmless. How times and opinions have changed! Now 10.Bd3 has become the move that most players with Black hate to see." While that may be the case, the authors seem to give pretty good lines against 10.Bd3, while, as noted above, at least the line with 10.Nb5 and 10...Qe7 is on life support for black.


Which is the finesse by GM Serper that he speaks of?
« Last Edit: 10/02/10 at 19:07:45 by Schroeder »  
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Re: Any Accelerated Dragon fan here?
Reply #40 - 09/30/10 at 00:50:08
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No, he didn't. His main variation cites G. Pinter - Philippe, Budapest 2000 where black plays 15...Qf5, which is met by 16. Bc5.

White's 19th move is highly questionable in the games you cite. There's other options like 19. Qb4, 19. f3, and 19. g4 (the final being an obvious computer suggestion) that all look slightly better for white. Maybe black can ultimately hold those positions with accurate defense, but he is not equal. 17...e4 is an interesting try, but no better than the continuation black chose in the Espig games.
  

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