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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Alekhine - really a sound opening? (Read 10069 times)
Keano
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Re: Alekhine - really a sound opening?
Reply #29 - 05/16/16 at 20:50:41
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Completely sound IMO.

Played by Fischer, say no more.
  
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MrAlekhine
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Re: Alekhine - really a sound opening?
Reply #28 - 01/10/07 at 15:15:02
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What is the theoretical verdict of 1. e4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e5 d4!? at the higher level?  I've played it for years, and have found it an attractive alternative.  I know it isn't the move white wants to see.  Most white players play into the endgame after 4. exf6 dxc3 5. fxg7 cxd2+ 6. Qxd2 Qxd2 7. Bxd2 Bxg7 8. O-O-O.  The game is unbalanced which generally allows the stronger player to outplay his opponent.  Suprisingly, the move that I'm not crazy about seeing is 3. exd5 Nxd5 which enters some dry lines of the Center Counter (1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nxd5) which don't lead to the more interesting positions, but I can't imagine it being a line white is thrilled about getting either.  I have always shyed away from the Nfd7 line (1. e4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e5 Nfd7) because of the annoying 4. e6?! lines.  Now, regardless of what the theoretical conculsion is on this line at any given time, I know from first-hand experience that black gets a real uncomfortable position for the mere investment of a weak pawn.  
  
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IM Christoph Wisnewski
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Re: Alekhine - really a sound opening?
Reply #27 - 01/10/07 at 09:00:55
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I am currently finishing my book on 1...Nc6, but as soon as I have time (probably on the weekend), I will put the material up again.
  

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Re: Alekhine - really a sound opening?
Reply #26 - 01/10/07 at 08:20:53
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I guess what Christoph has in mind is what was briefly discussed in:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1119459361/12#12

One of his main variations was :1. e4 Sf6 2.Sc3 d5 3.e5 Sfd7 4.f4 e6 5.Dg4!?

Too bad his web site seams to be down  Sad
It had quite a lot of analysis on it if I remember correctly...
  
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Markovich
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Re: Alekhine - really a sound opening?
Reply #25 - 01/09/07 at 22:42:35
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MNb wrote on 01/09/07 at 21:18:51:
But then 2.Nc3 becomes more attractive to those White players, who also have the French Steinitz on their repertoire ...
I am not sure if trading the French Exchange, Advance and Tarrasch for the Alekhine Four Pawns, Alekhine Exchange and Classical Alekhine (4.Nf3) is such a good deal for Black, but anyone his cup of tea of course.
I am looking forward to IM Wisnewski's reaction.


Don't forget that this "threat" only comes from White players who like the Steinitz AND the Vienna.  Also I don't think that Black HAS to play into the Steinitz after ...Nfd7.  I only said that he should not seek to avoid that.

  

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MNb
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Re: Alekhine - really a sound opening?
Reply #24 - 01/09/07 at 21:18:51
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But then 2.Nc3 becomes more attractive to those White players, who also have the French Steinitz on their repertoire ...
I am not sure if trading the French Exchange, Advance and Tarrasch for the Alekhine Four Pawns, Alekhine Exchange and Classical Alekhine (4.Nf3) is such a good deal for Black, but anyone his cup of tea of course.
I am looking forward to IM Wisnewski's reaction.
  

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Re: Alekhine - really a sound opening?
Reply #23 - 01/09/07 at 13:35:55
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Markovich,

I was impresise in my last post.
Black really doesnt have to steer for a french (although I do) - AND, that was actually Mnb's question....

(After 4..c5 many white players are tempted by Nxd5, which is OK for white of course, but black normally are more familiar with the position)


Variations, often, or can easily transpose to a french position, but not necessarily:

1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e5 Nfd7 4.d4 c5 5.f4 cxd 6.Nce2 (6.Nb5 Nc6 7.Nf3 Qa5 8.Bd2 Qb6 is another possiblity)Nc6 7.Nf3 d3 8.cxd3 Nb6 and Bg4 as played by alekhine expert Bagirov.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Alekhine - really a sound opening?
Reply #22 - 01/09/07 at 12:40:17
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I play this way with black and are happy to enter the French Steinitz having avoided the boring french exchange varition.

And, yes, I usually use the 4..c5 move order - which gives white still an option of not to enter the french...  Wink


Btw, black can also try 1.e4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e6!? if he wants to reach french steinitz. Gives white other options as well though...


I fully agree that Black should not seek to avoid the Steinitz French.  But please say how, after 2...d5  3. e5 Nfd7 4. d4 c5, White can insist on a Steinitz.  I admit to ignorance this point.
  

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Re: Alekhine - really a sound opening?
Reply #21 - 01/09/07 at 09:22:03
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I play this way with black and are happy to enter the French Steinitz having avoided the boring french exchange varition.

And, yes, I usually use the 4..c5 move order - which gives white still an option of not to enter the french...  Wink


Btw, black can also try 1.e4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e6!? if he wants to reach french steinitz. Gives white other options as well though...
  
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MNb
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Re: Alekhine - really a sound opening?
Reply #20 - 01/09/07 at 00:10:32
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Can Black avoid the French Steinitz after 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e5 Nfd7 4.d4 and 4.f4 ? Maybe with 4...c5 ? I don't think many Alekhine devotees want to enter this transposition ...
  

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Re: Alekhine - really a sound opening?
Reply #19 - 01/08/07 at 21:58:16
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Markovich
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Re: Alekhine - really a sound opening?
Reply #18 - 01/08/07 at 15:05:34
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Believe me or not, the reason I stopped playing the Alekhine after more than seven years as an exclusive weapon was 2 Nc3!?

I have done extensive analysis (this line is always covered poorly, although I do not know what John has to say about it as I was not able to get a look at his book yet), and Black has a hard time if he does not want to transpose to the Vienna with 2...e5 (probably Black's best choice).


I know that we've been around this particular mulberry bush before, but I just don't think that 2...e5 is a "concession," as you asserted elsewhere, particularly since 2. Nc3 after 1. e4 e5 is theoretically suboptimal.  However I do understand why 2. Nc3 makes sense for those, like Hector, whose repertoire is based on the Vienna.  Also I am not completely sure that White has more than his first-move advantage after 2...d5  3. e5 Nfd7. 

Maybe this would be a good place to debate the latter question.  Since the affirmative proposition appears to be that there exists a strong line of play against 3...Nfd7, I suggest that you, or someone, make that case here; I will then try to uphold the negative.
  

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MNb
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Re: Alekhine - really a sound opening?
Reply #17 - 01/05/07 at 20:33:56
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You guys cannot have seen the Big Book of the Alekhine Defence called Die Aljechin-Verteidigung by Siebenhaar, Delnef and Ottstadt Band 1 from 1986, can you? More than 100 pages on 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3. I would not call this exactly deplorable. One example: SDO point out a transposition from 2...d5 3.exd5 to the 3.g3 Vienna ....
Gee, IM Wisnewski, I would have thought that every serious German chess player would own the SDO stuff!
Iirc even your idea to combat the Alekhine is briefly mentioned.
Gee, IM Cox, you confirm my prejudices about English speaking authors not consulting German sources!
  

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Re: Alekhine - really a sound opening?
Reply #16 - 01/05/07 at 16:01:05
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I, errr, said that 2...e5 was Black's best choice!

I agree with you by the way: the coverage of this line in every Alekhine book I've ever seen is deplorable.
  
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IM Christoph Wisnewski
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Re: Alekhine - really a sound opening?
Reply #15 - 01/05/07 at 15:20:36
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Believe me or not, the reason I stopped playing the Alekhine after more than seven years as an exclusive weapon was 2 Nc3!?

I have done extensive analysis (this line is always covered poorly, although I do not know what John has to say about it as I was not able to get a look at his book yet), and Black has a hard time if he does not want to transpose to the Vienna with 2...e5 (probably Black's best choice).
  

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