Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix (Read 22776 times)
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10756
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #21 - 05/17/07 at 21:00:24
Post Tools
What to do, if you don't like the resulting positions after 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Bb5+ (4.Nf3 and even a6 is good)? Study some games from your database and learn how to play them! We are talking about a position, that is objectively better for Black. How often does that happen after 3 moves?

Ludwig,K - Vasques,J [B01]
Wch Seniors Bad Wildbad (1), 1997
1.e4 d5 2.e5 Bf5 3.f4 c5 4.Bb5+ Nd7 5.d3 a6 6.Ba4 b5 7.Bb3 c4 8.dxc4 dxc4 9.Qd5 e6 10.Qd2 Qb6 11.Nf3 Bc5 12.c3 cxb3 13.axb3 Rd8 14.b4 Nxe5 15.Qe2 Nd3+ 16.Kf1 Nxc1 17.Qe5 Bd3+ 18.Ke1 Bf2+ 19.Kd1 Nb3 20.Qxg7 Bxb1+ 21.Ke2 Qe3+ 22.Kf1 Bd3# 0–1

Chinello,G (1681) - Ronchetti,N (2217) [B21]
ITAch U20 Bratto (1), 21.08.2003
1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Bb5+ Nc6 5.Bxc6+ bxc6 6.d3 e6 7.Nf3 Be7 8.Be3 Rb8 9.b3 h5 10.Nbd2 Nh6 11.h3 Bg6 12.Qe2 Nf5 13.Bf2 h4 14.0–0–0 Qa5 15.a4 c4 16.dxc4 Ba3+ 17.Kb1 0–1
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
blueguitar322
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 138
Joined: 07/27/06
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #20 - 05/17/07 at 20:38:19
Post Tools
Any advice following 2...d5 3 e5!?

I've been aiming for a Advance CK setup with 3...Bf5, 4...Nc6, 5...e6, etc but am not a fan of these types of positions. 4 Bb5+ and 5 Bb5 are particularly annoying for me, not sure exactly why...

Silman has an article about this with some lines, but he doesn't say what to do if you don't particularly like the resulting position.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10756
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #19 - 12/29/06 at 02:00:12
Post Tools
Lane also mentions some deviations (probably the same) in his book on the GPA.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #18 - 12/28/06 at 22:26:46
Post Tools
I had mentioned in an earlier post that perhaps White did have a way to a slight advantage in a complicated endgame, but it turns out Lane had already analyzed these positions and mentions deviations for Black that he assesses as equal.  Of course for full details then check out the Chesspub ant-sicilians section.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sssthepro
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 439
Joined: 12/16/06
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #17 - 12/25/06 at 08:23:52
Post Tools
ok thanks
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JokernTP
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 6
Location: Vasteras
Joined: 12/24/06
Gender: Male
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #16 - 12/24/06 at 15:21:50
Post Tools
sssthepro wrote on 12/21/06 at 00:52:14:
why?Doesn't Black has a weak pawn on e6 after the queen trade as well?


Of course the pawn on e6 is a theoretical weakness, but white rarely can exploit this in practice. He has to defend his own weaknesses, which are more acute and black takes the iniative as in Koustoros-Rasmussen (1999) which continued 10. Nc3 Nb4 11. Kd1 0-0-0 12. Nh3 Nd3 13. Kc2 h6 14. b3 Be7 15. Ba3 Rd7 16. Raf1 Rhd8 17. Nb1 a6 18. Rf3 Ng4 19. Rg3 h5 20. Rf3 b5 with a clear advantage for black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sssthepro
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 439
Joined: 12/16/06
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #15 - 12/21/06 at 00:52:14
Post Tools
why?Doesn't Black has a weak pawn on e6 after the queen trade as well?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MrAlekhine
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 12
Joined: 04/11/06
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #14 - 12/20/06 at 17:25:57
Post Tools
The Qxe6 line was considered a huge novelty in the 80's.  As every Benko player knows, the trade of queens only enhances the weaknesses in whites position with black having virtually no losing chances and white having to defend a real lousy position.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarinFan
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 430
Location: Leeds
Joined: 04/04/06
Gender: Male
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #13 - 12/20/06 at 17:14:55
Post Tools
Hello,

I first became aware of this line in an article of BCM from '84 or so. The usual anti-sicillian books should cover it as well.

Bye John S
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #12 - 12/20/06 at 02:25:25
Post Tools
Rowson has some excellent coverage of the Tal Gambit on Chesspub.  I used to also think this was a little better for Black, but in fact according to Rowson the best line for White ends up in a very slight endgame advantage for White ("but all results are still possible").  Interestingly this is based on a move originally suggested by Kasparov in the 4.Bb5 Bd7 variation (4.Bb5 Nbd7!? is probably an inferior option, at least going by the analysis on Chesspub).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10756
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #11 - 12/19/06 at 21:01:05
Post Tools
1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 Nf6 4.c4 e6 5.dxe6 Bxe6 6.Nf3 Nc6 is excellent for Black, especially as 7.d4? fails: Nxd4 8.Nxd4 Qxd4 9.Qxd3 cxd4 and Black went on to win in Hodgson-Salov, Leningrad 1983.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2533
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #10 - 12/19/06 at 18:11:22
Post Tools
sssthepro wrote on 12/19/06 at 14:10:18:
Thanks for your help  Smiley. I wonder what happens when 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.ed Nf6 4.c4 e6 5.de is played.


Yermolinsky has some nice annotated games on this in his book The Road to Chess Improvement.  Personally, I've won every game that I was able to play 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5! in tournaments (only 3), and I feel especially comfortable in the line given above.  Whit's pawns on c4 and f4 are especially pathetic; even his extra d-pawn just gets in the way.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dsanchez
Full Member
***
Offline


24.Nh1!?N

Posts: 182
Joined: 01/24/06
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #9 - 12/19/06 at 17:39:02
Post Tools
I dunno.  If you could recapture the pawn while developing a piece, that would probably be a good thing.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sssthepro
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 439
Joined: 12/16/06
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #8 - 12/19/06 at 14:10:18
Post Tools
Thanks for your help  Smiley. I wonder what happens when 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.ed Nf6 4.c4 e6 5.de is played.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dsanchez
Full Member
***
Offline


24.Nh1!?N

Posts: 182
Joined: 01/24/06
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #7 - 12/19/06 at 12:46:11
Post Tools
I downloaded a bunch of games with the starting position after 3...Nf6 and played through them quickly.

It looks like the main line runs 4.Bb5+ Bd7 5.Bxd7+ Qxd7 6.c4 e6.

Sax - Vyskocil, Balatonlelle (?) 2006, seems fairly representative of this line.  Also Wheeler - Emms, Nottingham 2005, and Yudasin - Christiansen, Minneapolis 2005.  As in most gambits, it appears Black is striving for rapid development, active pieces, and open lines.  There are endless ways of trying to achieve this.  I think I prefer the idea of castling short ...0-0, although ...0-0-0 seems to be not unheard of.

White almost always initiates the capture ...dxe6, and I would recapture ...fxe6 opening the f-file. However, it also looks possible for Black to recapture ...Qxe6.  Looks like one variation is (after 6...e6) 7.dxe6 Qxe6 8.Qe2 Nc6 9.Qxe6+ fxe6 and now White has to worry a little about the threat of ...Nb4 or ...Nd4.

Sometimes White plays f5 and captures fxe6. Both sides then have an open f-file.

If White does not initiate the capture of Black's e-pawn, I think Black should try to finish developing and then open lines with ...exd5.

Pirisi - Nagy, Budapest 2006, shows White giving back the pawn with 6.Nc3. After 6...Nxd5 7.Nxd5 Qxd5 8.Qf3 Qd7 my guess is the game is close to equal.  The moves in this game look logical, but somehow both sides seem to end up with pretty odd positions.

Rodriguez - Dominguez, Morelia 2006, is an altogether different way to handle it as Black.

Sveshnikov - Yakovich, Sochi 2006, demonstrates a 4...Nbd7 variation.

My approach would be to try to follow the main line with 4...Bd7, castle short, and then try to open the game with central pawn breaks, put my Rooks on open files (probably f- and e-files) and point my other pieces in the general direction of White's king.  Looks like fun if you can find someone who will play it as White.

That's my extremely amateur interpretation of it based on about 30 minutes research.  Hopefully more experienced players will chime in and correct any mistakes I've made.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sssthepro
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 439
Joined: 12/16/06
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #6 - 12/19/06 at 09:27:06
Post Tools
Can I know some of the general principles behind the Tal Gambit? I know that you need to control d4, but what else?And what are some of the thematic moves in this opening?Thanks.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10756
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #5 - 12/18/06 at 20:17:26
Post Tools
There is no reason for an update: 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5?! Nf6 is almost =+ already. Really, this is one of the best countergambits around. Just compare it to 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 and you will see, that ...c5 is far more useful than f4.
If someone wants to play 1.e4 c5 2.f4 by all means, (s)he should avoid the Tal Gambit by d5 3.Nc3 (Hebden on the T... Variation). There is also the Bryntse Gambit 3.Nf3 dxe4 (e6) 4.Ng5 Nf6 5.Bc4 Bg4 6.Qxg4 Nxg4 7.Bxf7+ but Black can force a draw by Kd7 8.Be6+ Ke8.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dsanchez
Full Member
***
Offline


24.Nh1!?N

Posts: 182
Joined: 01/24/06
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #4 - 12/18/06 at 15:53:48
Post Tools
sgosgo wrote on 12/18/06 at 14:08:08:
Which moves are the "Tal Gambit" ?


1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.ed Nf6, I think.

Has this been covered in an update?  If not, I wouldn't mind seeing some coverage, although it may be played so rarely these days that there is no material.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sgosgo
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 4
Joined: 12/11/06
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #3 - 12/18/06 at 14:08:08
Post Tools
Which moves are the "Tal Gambit" ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #2 - 12/18/06 at 13:58:24
Post Tools
The fact that most Grand Prix games nowadays start with 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 followed by 3.f4 rather than an immediate 2.f4 is largely attributable to the soundness of the Tal Gambit.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alias
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1512
Location: East of the river Svartån
Joined: 11/19/04
Re: Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
Reply #1 - 12/18/06 at 13:12:50
Post Tools
Yes, very much so.
  

Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sssthepro
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 439
Joined: 12/16/06
Tal Gambit against the Grand Prix
12/18/06 at 13:01:40
Post Tools
Is it sound?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo