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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4...now what? (Read 10526 times)
kylemeister
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4...now what?
Reply #10 - 01/31/07 at 23:08:03
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dsanchez wrote on 01/31/07 at 22:29:52:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/31/07 at 19:57:01:
2..e6 and ...d5 as soon as possible must be good. Smiley


This seems to be the consensus; however, after 2...e6 White's KB is such an ineffective piece, I wonder if it makes any sense for Black to delay ...d5 for as long as possible just to keep it ineffective.  Seems like ...d5 may lead to an opening of the position which will benefit White's bishop.  

Or to look at it another way, is black's modest claim to the center compensated by White's relatively ineffective piece?

I guess Black probably can't delay ...d5 indefinitely.  But maybe he can wait for White to blink first and spend a tempo moving the bishop again.

Just a thought.


But if Black is too reticent White might actually (gasp) transpose to an open Sicilian with a subsequent d4.  Which should be fine/respectable for White except against a Taimanovish set-up (basically Bc4 would look out of place with no ...d6 by Black) ...  

Eric:  I think a plausible line is something like 3. Nc3 a6 4. a4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Nf6 (since White is a tempo [0-0] short of being able to defend the e-pawn in the case of 6. e5 Ng4 7. Qe2 Qc7) followed by 6...d5.

(editing) Okay, White can play 6. Qe2 (preventing ...d5 as well as a possible ...Nxe4).  Maybe then 6...Qc7 (Black has had to renounce an early ...d5, White has had to renounce d4) and if 7. 0-0 Ng4 8. g3 Be7, when I'd be inclined to say Black is slightly better ...    
« Last Edit: 02/01/07 at 04:04:36 by kylemeister »  
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dsanchez
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4...now what?
Reply #9 - 01/31/07 at 22:29:52
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/31/07 at 19:57:01:
2..e6 and ...d5 as soon as possible must be good. Smiley


This seems to be the consensus; however, after 2...e6 White's KB is such an ineffective piece, I wonder if it makes any sense for Black to delay ...d5 for as long as possible just to keep it ineffective.  Seems like ...d5 may lead to an opening of the position which will benefit White's bishop. 

Or to look at it another way, is black's modest claim to the center compensated by White's relatively ineffective piece?

I guess Black probably can't delay ...d5 indefinitely.  But maybe he can wait for White to blink first and spend a tempo moving the bishop again.

Just a thought.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4...now what?
Reply #8 - 01/31/07 at 22:07:01
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I assume White would play 1.e4 c5 2.Bc4 e6 3.Nc3, not letting Black play ...d5 just yet, surely?
  
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kylemeister
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4...now what?
Reply #7 - 01/31/07 at 21:28:15
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Bc4 surely makes more sense after 2...d6, and is of course occasionally played by IMs and GMs there.  A (master-level) friend of mine calls (at least some of) this early Bc4 stuff "the Little Old Man System."

Other idiosyncratic terminology:  I think the late Australian IM Cecil Purdy (some people think highly of his books for less experienced players) would call 2...e6 followed by 3...d5 "Biffing the Bishop."
  
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4...now what?
Reply #6 - 01/31/07 at 21:16:28
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thibdb13 wrote on 01/31/07 at 18:45:07:
chk wrote on 01/31/07 at 18:35:33:
Play 2. ... e6 to block the dangerous diagonal the Bishop is trained at. Then follow up with normal Sicilian moves depending what White plays, e.g.: Nf6 / Be7 / (Nc6) / a6 & b5.

When you have developed a bit,  Bc4 will become a liability for White and you can attack it via d5! or even a6 & b5 & c4! (if you get so lucky and White plays Bc4-b3!)

What do you think of a dragon-like system with d6, g6, Nf6, Nc6, Bg7 and Bd7? (this is no move order, just the moves to do!)


I have tried this once - after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bc4 - and found out, that f7 might become a weakness in the long term.
  

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AcuWill
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4...now what?
Reply #5 - 01/31/07 at 21:02:06
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Thanks for the replies.  Only been playing seriously for 4 months.  I see the thought process though.  Of course, now nobody plays it after 4-5 different opponents yesturday.   Angry

Edit:  Spelling
  
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kylemeister
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4...now what?
Reply #4 - 01/31/07 at 20:31:27
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I would think that 2...e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. ed ed 5. Bb5+ (to be followed by moves like d4 and 0-0) is "better than White deserves"; I wonder if White even has a chance for an edge despite being a tempo down on that Marshall thing (1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 d5?!).  I would suggest playing an early ...a6; then if a4 play ...d5 soon, otherwise you should have a pleasant choice of ...d5 or ...b5.  Eh?
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4...now what?
Reply #3 - 01/31/07 at 19:57:01
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2..e6 and ...d5 as soon as possible must be good. Smiley
  
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thibdb13
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4...now what?
Reply #2 - 01/31/07 at 18:45:07
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chk wrote on 01/31/07 at 18:35:33:
Play 2. ... e6 to block the dangerous diagonal the Bishop is trained at. Then follow up with normal Sicilian moves depending what White plays, e.g.: Nf6 / Be7 / (Nc6) / a6 & b5.

When you have developed a bit,  Bc4 will become a liability for White and you can attack it via d5! or even a6 & b5 & c4! (if you get so lucky and White plays Bc4-b3!)

What do you think of a dragon-like system with d6, g6, Nf6, Nc6, Bg7 and Bd7? (this is no move order, just the moves to do!)
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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chk
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4...now what?
Reply #1 - 01/31/07 at 18:35:33
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Play 2. ... e6 to block the dangerous diagonal the Bishop is trained at. Then follow up with normal Sicilian moves depending what White plays, e.g.: Nf6 / Be7 / (Nc6) / a6 & b5.

When you have developed a bit,  Bc4 will become a liability for White and you can attack it via d5! or even a6 & b5 & c4! (if you get so lucky and White plays Bc4-b3!)
  

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AcuWill
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1. e4 c5 2. Bc4...now what?
01/31/07 at 18:04:39
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I have been encountering this quite a bit.  I don't have any sicilian books, but I have yet to find a reference to this on a website.  Anyone have any good theory to this?
  
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