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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) KG convert (Read 19244 times)
cma6
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Modern Defense to KG
Reply #38 - 06/02/07 at 02:06:46
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[quote author=Dragonslayer link=1172299697/0#7 date=1172591314]I don't think there is such a thing as a perfect opening. But for me it is the perfect opening.

Suggesting a book is difficult. If you want to play the Bishop's gambit then get Johansson's book. If you prefer 3.Nf3 there really aren't any books that are both good and up to date.


  Dragonslayer, any comments on Larry Kaufman's contention in "The Chess Advantage in Black and White" that:
  Blacks best again KG is 1 e4 e5; 2 f4 d5; 3 exd because if 2...exf; 3 Bc4 is best for White and if then 3...d5; 4 Bxd5.    Kaufman continues, "The recommended move order 2 f4 d5 defangs the Bishop's Gambit, while still permitting an excellent defense to the Knight's Gambit." 
  He gives model games like this: 1 e4, e5; 2 f4, d5; 3 exd, exf; 4 Nf3 (the move order for Black preferred by Karpov and Yusupov), Nf6; 5 Bc4, Nxd5; 6 Bxd5, Qxd5; 7 Nc3.
  In all these lines, Kaufman says that Black is fine. Is this Black's very best method against the KG?
  
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blueguitar322
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Re: KG convert
Reply #37 - 05/05/07 at 15:39:01
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Quick note, thought it was relevant: Pinski's book on the KG has officially been given "Delayed" status at the Quality Chess website.
  
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Re: KG convert
Reply #36 - 05/04/07 at 21:21:22
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Markovich wrote on 05/04/07 at 16:12:19:
Against that, I would play sharply with c3 and d4.  It's very double-edged, so be sure that you're better booked.


As far as I know, Black is doing fine after 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nf3 d6 4.c3 Bb6! because of 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bg4. With TalJechin I always have had the idea, that White's ambitious attempt to build a strong pressure is too slow.
At the other hand Tsjigorin's 4.Nc3 etc. looks like normal, smooth development to me. With that pawn on f4 White should be able to keep some advantage. Eg after 4.Nc3 Nf6 6.Bc4 Nc6 7.Na4 Bg4 White, like Dragonslayer has pointed out, can play 8.c3 first and only after Na5 9.Nxc5 etc.
8.Nxc5 dxc5 9.0-0 (do Davies and/or Marin mention 9.f5 here?) Qd6 10.Qd2 Bxf3 11.gxf3 Nd7 12.f5 Nb6 13.Bb3 a5 (an improvement indeed; in that Renet line 21.Bf4 might be even stronger) 14.a3 (but 14.a4 Nd4 15.Ba2 is to be investigated as well; the idea is Nxa4 16.f4 or else to proceed with 16.Qg2 etc) Tfd8 (Kh8 15.f4 f6 16.fxe5 fxe5 17.Qf2 preventing ...c4 looks somewhat better for White to me - the pair of bishops must mean something; Rad8!?) 15.Qg2 (maybe 15.Qf2 again, to play 16.f4) a4 16.f6!? Qxf6 17.Bg5 Qd6 18.Bxd8 axb3 and this exchange sac looks correct.
All in all my opinion remains, that 2...Bc5 is a sound move, but does not challenge White's gambit. So White can try to prove an objective advantage, while Black is fighting for complete equality.


  

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TopNotch
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Re: KG convert
Reply #35 - 05/04/07 at 20:49:31
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Quote:
I want to note that .......8.Nxc5,dxc 9.0-0, Qd6 10.Qd2 is not Renet's improvement.
This move had allready occured in Zednik-Azzola, corr. 2001 !, though the position arose by
transposition from the Vienna:

1.e4,e5 2.Nc3, Nf6 3.Bc4!?,Nc6! 4.d3,Bc5 5.f4 !?, 0-0 6.Nf3,d6 7.Na4,Bg4.
8.Nxc5,dxc 9.0-0,Qd6 10.Qd2
As for the analysis:
10.....,Bxf 11.gxf, Nd7 12.f5,Nb6 13.Bb3,[color=#ff0000] Nd4[/color]
I think that black should play 13....a5 (instead of 13...Nd4) first
(after all: in the subsequent analysis black never gets to play Nxb3)
Now white has not enough time to complete his attacking setup by Kh1-Qg2-Rg1 at once.
He must secure a retreat for his bishop first (a3/c3/c4). All these moves have in common that
(a) black has gained a tempo, as white has played an extra pawn move
(b) Nd4-xb3 looks more attractive, since the double pawn structure weakens with every pawn move.
(c) black keeps open several defensive options where Nd4 is not necessary but the intermediate Qd4+
plays an important role.
Probably 14.a3 is best, keeping the pressure on the f7-g8 diagonal, but now black still has a choice
either to block this with 14....Rfd8 threatening 15..... c4
(also note that after 15.Qg2.... black can play 15...c4 anyway since Qd4+ is available)
or play 14....Kh8 preparing a new defensive line.


True there is an example of 10.Qd2 in the databases. However I suspect that Renet discovered this idea independently, which his subsequent original analysis would tend to  suggest.

Yes 13...a5!? instead of 13...Nd4 deserves consideration, but I still doubt that it is good enough for black to claim equality. The long term problems are that the black knights lack stable outpost, his king is weak and white possesses the two Bishops and an open g-file to attack along. The light squared bishop in particular is a monster, while the knight on b6 just seems misplaced and too far away from the defence of its monarch.

A possible continuation could be:    1. e4 e5 2. f4 Bc5 3. Nf3 d6 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Bc4 Nc6 6. d3 Bg4 7. Na4 O-O 8. Nxc5 dxc5 9. O-O Qd6 10. Qd2 Bxf3 11. gxf3 Nd7 12. f5 Nb6 13. Bb3 a5 14. a3 Rfd8 15. Qg2 c4 16. dxc4 a4 17. Ba2 Nxc4 18. Kh1 b5 19. Rg1 g6 20. Bg5 With a strong attack for white.

No doubt black could improve somewhere, but it seems to me that white's position is much easier to play.

Toppy  Smiley

  

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micawber
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Re: KG convert
Reply #34 - 05/04/07 at 18:22:04
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I want to note that .......8.Nxc5,dxc 9.0-0, Qd6 10.Qd2 is not Renet's improvement.
This move had allready occured in Zednik-Azzola, corr. 2001 !, though the position arose by
transposition from the Vienna:

1.e4,e5 2.Nc3, Nf6 3.Bc4!?,Nc6! 4.d3,Bc5 5.f4 !?, 0-0 6.Nf3,d6 7.Na4,Bg4.
8.Nxc5,dxc 9.0-0,Qd6 10.Qd2
As for the analysis:
10.....,Bxf 11.gxf, Nd7 12.f5,Nb6 13.Bb3,[color=#ff0000] Nd4[/color]
I think that black should play 13....a5 (instead of 13...Nd4) first
(after all: in the subsequent analysis black never gets to play Nxb3)
Now white has not enough time to complete his attacking setup by Kh1-Qg2-Rg1 at once.
He must secure a retreat for his bishop first (a3/c3/c4). All these moves have in common that
(a) black has gained a tempo, as white has played an extra pawn move
(b) Nd4-xb3 looks more attractive, since the double pawn structure weakens with every pawn move.
(c) black keeps open several defensive options where Nd4 is not necessary but the intermediate Qd4+
plays an important role.
Probably 14.a3 is best, keeping the pressure on the f7-g8 diagonal, but now black still has a choice
either to block this with 14....Rfd8 threatening 15..... c4
(also note that after 15.Qg2.... black can play 15...c4 anyway since Qd4+ is available)
or play 14....Kh8 preparing a new defensive line.

  
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Re: KG convert
Reply #33 - 05/04/07 at 18:03:02
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Just got Marin's 1.e4 e5 book. He used to recommend 3...g5 but apparently that is no longer "killing the King's gambit".
Anyway after 1. e4 e5 2. f4 Bc5 3. Nf3 d6 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Bc4 Nc6 6. d3 Bg4 7. Na4 O-O 8. Nxd5 dxc5 9.0-0 Qd6 Marin only considers 10.h3, 10.fxe5 and 10.f5.
8.Nxc5 is not forced and Marin also considers 8.f5, but not 8.c3 so KG players should be happy again.

IMO the reason everyone is recommending 2...Bc5 is that they are writing repertoire books against 1.e4. Choosing 2...Bc5 against the KG provides a defence against the Bishop's opening and the Vienna as well. So it has less to do with objective strength or practical choice than with saving pages. In fact Marin forgot to even mention 2.Bc4 (or 2.Ne2, 2.a3, 2.Bb5, 2.Qh5 etc.).
  
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TopNotch
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Re: KG convert
Reply #32 - 05/04/07 at 17:22:20
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Markovich wrote on 05/04/07 at 16:19:42:
TopNotch wrote on 05/04/07 at 01:22:44:
Rimfaxe wrote on 03/13/07 at 13:44:12:
I have noticed that both Nigel Davies in 1.e4 e5! and Mihail Marin in his new book "Beating the open games" recommends black to play 2...Bc5 against the KG.

I assume this is to avoid the sharp variations after 2...exf4 but what do you guys think about this move? Is it a good practical choise if you want to avoid theory?


Edit: I first wrote 2...Bf5, meant of course Bc5, I also misspelled the name of Nigel Davies  Tongue


The KGD line starting with 2...Bc5 is not an attempt to avoid theory, it is a part of theory, but rather a way of reaching more rational stable positions with black. Here black seeks to equalise first outplay later, although GM Renet has suggested an improvement on the mainline given in Nigel Davies book to show that white maybe able to retain a slight plus after all.

Tops  Smiley



Which update?  I missed that.


I don't recall which update exactly but the line is as follows:

1. e4 e5 2. f4 Bc5 3. Nf3 d6 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Bc4 Nc6 6. d3 Bg4 7. Na4 O-O 8. Nxc5 dxc5 9. O-O
Qd6 10. Qd2!? [Renet's intended improvement. Davies only considers 10.f5, 10.h3 and 10.Qe1] Bxf3 11. gxf3 Nd7 12. f5 Nb6 13. Bb3 Nd4 14. Qg2 a5 15. Kh1 a4 16. Rg1 g6 17. fxg6 hxg6 18. Qxg6+ Qxg6 19. Rxg6+ Kh7 20. Rh6+ Kg7 21. Be3
with advantage to white.

If Renet's analysis holds up, then the ball is back in black's court to prove equality here.

Tops  Smiley
  

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Re: KG convert
Reply #31 - 05/04/07 at 16:19:42
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TopNotch wrote on 05/04/07 at 01:22:44:
Rimfaxe wrote on 03/13/07 at 13:44:12:
I have noticed that both Nigel Davies in 1.e4 e5! and Mihail Marin in his new book "Beating the open games" recommends black to play 2...Bc5 against the KG.

I assume this is to avoid the sharp variations after 2...exf4 but what do you guys think about this move? Is it a good practical choise if you want to avoid theory?


Edit: I first wrote 2...Bf5, meant of course Bc5, I also misspelled the name of Nigel Davies  Tongue


The KGD line starting with 2...Bc5 is not an attempt to avoid theory, it is a part of theory, but rather a way of reaching more rational stable positions with black. Here black seeks to equalise first outplay later, although GM Renet has suggested an improvement on the mainline given in Nigel Davies book to show that white maybe able to retain a slight plus after all.

Tops  Smiley



Which update?  I missed that.
  

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Re: KG convert
Reply #30 - 05/04/07 at 16:12:19
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JonHecht wrote on 03/02/07 at 18:23:21:
I've been playing it on blitz and so far all I have got it Bc5 and d6.


Against that, I would play sharply with c3 and d4.  It's very double-edged, so be sure that you're better booked.
  

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TopNotch
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Re: KG convert
Reply #29 - 05/04/07 at 01:22:44
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Rimfaxe wrote on 03/13/07 at 13:44:12:
I have noticed that both Nigel Davies in 1.e4 e5! and Mihail Marin in his new book "Beating the open games" recommends black to play 2...Bc5 against the KG.

I assume this is to avoid the sharp variations after 2...exf4 but what do you guys think about this move? Is it a good practical choise if you want to avoid theory?


Edit: I first wrote 2...Bf5, meant of course Bc5, I also misspelled the name of Nigel Davies  Tongue


The KGD line starting with 2...Bc5 is not an attempt to avoid theory, it is a part of theory, but rather a way of reaching more rational stable positions with black. Here black seeks to equalise first outplay later, although GM Renet has suggested an improvement on the mainline given in Nigel Davies book to show that white maybe able to retain a slight plus after all.

Tops  Smiley
  

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TopNotch
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Re: KG convert
Reply #28 - 05/04/07 at 00:36:57
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JonHecht wrote on 02/28/07 at 02:32:11:
Is King's Gambit for the Creative Aggressor good?


Get Joe Gallagher's book its well written by a GM who used to employ the Kings Gambit successfully around the time of publication. Of course some of the lines no longer hold up, but his explanation of key themes, motifs, do's and don'ts are still second to none.

Perhaps more importantly, the book's presentation is clear, systematic and concise blending nicely the simplicity of a 'Starting Out' book with the precision of a repertoire work and topped off with the many useful insights of an acclaimed grandmaster author.

What more could one ask for, except perhaps a more reliable opening.      

Toppy  Smiley  
  

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Re: KG convert
Reply #27 - 04/01/07 at 09:13:58
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Just a little food for thought on the whole KGA versus 2...Bc5 discussion:

I did a quick look at the last 300 King Gambits published in TWIC. {The Week In Chess}
Black scores 57% with the top choice 2...exf4   (with a +20 elo performance).
Black scores 51% with 2...Bc5  (but with a +40 elo performance).

As for strong players, you find that of the 26 players rated over 2450 that have faced 2.f4 (as Black), 21 of them chose 2...exf4.  However, its worth mentioning that the 4 players that chose 2...Bc5 all won.

So, by this very quick (and very shallow) analysis, the old adage "the best way to refute a gambit is to accept it" appears to remain true of the Kings Gambit in the most reason games. 
Black does score best when grabbing the pawn, and the strongest players still tend to do just that (overwhelmingly so). 
That said, 2...Bc5 does scores more than 50% for Black and is easier to learn.  So, in contemporary practice,  I think both options are quite viable.

Nietzsche

ps - I'm still partial to 2...d5 and taking the offered f4-pawn on move 3.  I think this gives black more than 2...Bc5 and cuts out some of White's ideas to boot. Wink   But I am nowhere near an expert in these lines.  Thats just my 2 cents.



  

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Re: KG convert
Reply #26 - 03/14/07 at 20:32:56
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I happened to see the following played which may interest some of you !

1e4 e5 2 f4 bc5 3 nf3 d5 !!?? I have never seen that before anyone got any info?


yes, I play that online quite a bit
it's a big mess

Smiley
  

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Re: KG convert
Reply #25 - 03/14/07 at 20:09:50
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See the Fascinating King's Gambit, page 181. Johansson calls it the Schlemmer Counter Gambit. He also writes, that he prefers 3.Nc3, because he does not "want to be troubled with that mess."
  

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Re: KG convert
Reply #24 - 03/14/07 at 15:32:23
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I happened to see the following played which may interest some of you !

1e4 e5 2 f4 bc5 3 nf3 d5 !!?? I have never seen that before anyone got any info?
  
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