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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C00-C19: What against french for 7 years old kid? (Read 14940 times)
Bibs
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Re: What against french for 7 years old kid?
Reply #52 - 07/04/07 at 13:21:40
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Another text worth looking at for the ...d4 lines is :

Knight on the Left
by Harold Keilhack.

Has oodles of stuff sbout these kinds of lines. Best place to look imho.

btw agree with your choice. Best of luck to you and your charge.

Bibs
  
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Re: What against french for 7 years old kid?
Reply #51 - 07/04/07 at 12:00:39
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/04/07 at 04:52:58:
I did a search of games involving 3...d5-d4 and found that White wins only 51% of the time.  It's probably fine since such strong players as GM Ian Rogers and GM Kadir (Qadir) Guseinov have played it as White.
The rest of the game is interesting, but this is the position I would focus on.  According to my computer, White has a very slight edge here.  I would prefer Black.


This is a pretty neat variation for Black! Most of the traps in the French Two Knights are in White's favour, but this is definitely a line that White needs to look at! It would be a nasty shock to walk into it never having seen it before.

However, after the calm (and not too hard to work out) 11 Be3 Bb4+ 12 Nc3 White has a perfectly playable IQP position, and it should not be hard to find improvements on Guseinov - Mamedyarov or indeed this one:

[Event "Lindsborg op"]
[Site "Lindsborg"]
[Date "2004.12.21"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Shivaji, Shivkuma"]
[Black "Shulman, Yuri"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C00"]
[WhiteElo "2257"]
[BlackElo "2549"]
[PlyCount "90"]
[EventDate "2004.12.17"]
[EventType "swiss"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "USA"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2004.12.30"]

1. e4 e6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Nf3 d4 4. Ne2 c5 5. c3 Nc6 6. cxd4 Nf6 7. e5 Nd7 8. dxc5
Ndxe5 9. Nxe5 Nxe5 10. d4 Bxc5 11. Be3 Bb4+ 12. Nc3 Nc6 13. Be2 Qa5 14. O-O
Bxc3 15. bxc3 Qxc3 16. d5 exd5 17. Rc1 Qa5 18. Bc5 Be6 19. Qb3 O-O-O 20. Rb1 b6
21. Bb5 Kb7 22. Bxc6+ Kxc6 23. Bb4 Qa6 24. a4 Kb7 25. a5 b5 26. Qg3 g6 27. Rfc1
Rc8 28. Qh4 h5 29. h3 Rhe8 30. Qf6 Ka8 31. Bc5 Rc6 32. Rc3 Rec8 33. Rbc1 Qxa5
34. Bb4 Qb6 35. Ra1 Rc4 36. Rca3 Rc1+ 37. Kh2 Rxa1 38. Rxa1 Rc4 39. Bd2 b4 40.
Bf4 b3 41. Qe5 Rxf4 42. Qxf4 b2 43. Rb1 Bf5 44. Re1 b1=Q 45. Re8+ Qb8 0-1

It also hasn't stopped Guseinov from continuing to play the Two knights in 2006-7. Actually it's high time that he started playing main lines, but that's a separate issue.
  
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Re: What against french for 7 years old kid?
Reply #50 - 07/04/07 at 05:45:36
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This line is recommended by Chris Baker in A Startling Chess Opening Repertoire for White, a repertoire book that I have very mixed feelings about.  (After reading it, I eventually found it difficult to agree with most of the recommendations in the book, but it made me think about several problems I otherwise might not have.)  I played this line several years ago against a 2100 player in a blitz series, and he would play 1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Nc3 d4.  I remember that the position seemed more difficult for white to play than the book made out.  I agree with Smyslov_Fan.  If you play this line, carefully study it!  White can easily suffer a reversal quickly if he is unprepared.
  

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Re: What against french for 7 years old kid?
Reply #49 - 07/04/07 at 04:52:58
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I did a search of games involving 3...d5-d4 and found that White wins only 51% of the time.  It's probably fine since such strong players as GM Ian Rogers and GM Kadir (Qadir) Guseinov have played it as White.

However, here's a morality tale of what sort of position White is likely to have to play:



Guseinov,K (2505) - Mamedyarov,S (2607) [C00]
Wch U20 Nakhchivan (8), 28.06.2003

1.e4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Nf3 d4 4.Ne2 c5 5.c3 Nc6 6.cxd4 Nf6 7.e5 Nd7 8.dxc5 Ndxe5 9.Nxe5 Nxe5 10.d4 Bxc5

The rest of the game is interesting, but this is the position I would focus on.  According to my computer, White has a very slight edge here.  I would prefer Black.

11.Be3 Bb4+ 12.Nc3 Nc6 13.a3 Ba5 14.Bb5 0-0 15.0-0 Ne7 16.Qf3 Bxc3 17.bxc3 Qa5 18.Bd3 Qxc3 19.Be4 f5 20.Bxb7 Bxb7 21.Qxb7 Nd5 22.Qa6 Qc8 23.Qd6 Rd8 24.Qg3 Qb8 25.Qf3 Qd6 26.Rfc1 Rab8 27.Bd2 Rb2 28.Bc3 Nxc3 29.Qxc3 Qxd4 30.Qxd4 Rxd4 31.Rc8+ Kf7 32.Rc7+ Kf6 33.Rxa7 Rdd2 34.Rf1 e5 35.Ra6+ Kg5 36.Ra7 Kh6 37.Re7 Re2 38.g3 Ra2 39.Ra7 e4 40.Kg2 e3 41.Re7 Rxf2+ 42.Rxf2 Rxf2+ 43.Kg1 Re2 44.h4 g5 45.hxg5+ Kh5 46.Kf1 Rf2+ 47.Ke1 Rf3 48.Ke2 Rxg3 49.Rxe3 Rxg5 50.Kf3 Rg4 51.Re2 Kg5 52.Re7 h5 53.Ra7 Rc4 54.a4 Rc3+ 55.Kg2 Rc2+ 56.Kh3 Rc3+ 57.Kg2 Ra3 58.a5 Kg4 59.Rg7+ Kf4 60.Rh7 Ra2+ 61.Kg1 h4 62.Kf1 Kg3 63.Rg7+ Kf3 64.Kg1 Rxa5 65.Kh2 f4 66.Rf7 Ke3 67.Kg2 Rg5+ 68.Kf1 Kf3 69.Ra7 Kg3 70.Ra3+ f3 71.Ra8 h3 72.Kg1 f2+ 73.Kf1 h2 0-1


This was a game played by two juniors!  Yeah, they are both world famous now, but still....
  
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Re: What against french for 7 years old kid?
Reply #48 - 07/04/07 at 04:05:34
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I forgot to add:

Your move order will encourage many kids to play 3...d5-d4, which will probably be more challenging than 3...de4.  Have fun!
  
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Re: What against french for 7 years old kid?
Reply #47 - 07/04/07 at 04:02:48
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@Ender,

You've made an interesting choice.

Let us know how things progress!

Cheers!

Smiley
  
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Re: What against french for 7 years old kid?
Reply #46 - 07/04/07 at 01:54:51
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knightmare wrote on 07/03/07 at 13:34:30:
MNb wrote on 06/26/07 at 01:30:15:
The W-R Gambit is quite dubious, to say it friendly: 6.f3 c5! and 6.f3 e5! are both good. Such stuff demands 20 minutes preparation by Black and (s)he will be better. So it is a bad recommendation.
I will be happy to discuss the W-R Gambit in a separate thread. I tried to make it work a few years ago and failed.


To be honest, I really doubt this.
The WRG is still played in corr, and things are - to say it friendly - not at all as easy as you suggest.
I played several corr. theme tourneys with that line, and I'm pretty sure that there's a lot of resources in the WRG that are not part of "official theory"
To be honest I pretty much think that the WRG is - concerning its "correctness" on the same "level" as the Milner Barry.

I you open a WRG thread I will definitely post some things there.


Well, the Milner Barry is close to refutation as well, so that is not much of a recommendation. As I was the first to ask, I invite you to open a thread on the WRG - beginning with White's best after 6.f3 c5! and 6.f3 e5!
Key games:
Flude-Everett, corr 2000
Lang-Schmitz, Gross Gerau Open 2000.

I would also like to remark, that according to my database Black after 6...c5 wins 55 of 95 games. The one time I played the WRG, I drew after 7.Bb5+.
  

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Re: What against french for 7 years old kid?
Reply #45 - 07/03/07 at 17:20:34
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Thx for all advices!
Line we will play is : 1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3. Nc3
Smiley
  

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Re: What against french for 7 years old kid?
Reply #44 - 07/03/07 at 15:34:20
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Markovich wrote on 07/02/07 at 18:03:28:
kylemeister wrote on 06/18/07 at 20:36:56:
I suppose you might consider 3. ed ed 4. c4 ...has a kind of open/active/classical flavour; has some pretty clear ideas; might tend to discomfit French players (though it can lead to a sort of Tarrasch French reversed ....).  Has been played by e.g. GMs Wolff, Miezis, Ashley and IM Waitzkin.


Yes.  I teach a lot of 7-year-olds -- though only two have been of national champion caliber and none have been 2100 elo -- and I teach them to play 3. exd5 exd5  4. c4.  It's exciting, and it leads open positions, which young and improving players should specialize in.

However I am less sure of this recommendation for such a strong player.  It seems to me that by the time you're 2100, you must understand fairly well the principles of play in open positions.  If you have the time to study the variations, I think 3. Nc3 is probably the best way to go, and certainly the most natural.

Ah, now I see that it's the coach, not the kid, that is 2100.  Whew!  In that case, I revert to the Exchange French with 4. c4.  One key idea, by the way, is to interpose the bishop on e3 when checked early on the e-file and then, if Black plays ...Ng4 or ...Nd5 to win the pawn, just castle and let him win it.  The corrolary is that the f1 bishop belongs on d3, not e2 to prevent the check.  E.g. 4. c4 Nf6  5. Nf3 Bb4+  6. Nc3 0-0  7. Bd3 Re8+  8. Be3 Ng4  9. 0-0!  And similarly if checked by the queen.  

Another key point is to react to an early ...Bg4 with Qb3, either immediately or after cxd5.  This is often good even if ...Bxf3 doubles your f-pawns.

It's not a "reversed Tarrasch" though, since Black is missing an e-pawn, not a c-pawn.


Thine eyes do deceive thee ...that was Tarrasch as in 3. Nd2, not as in 3...c5 ...uh, you know what I mean.
  
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Re: What against french for 7 years old kid?
Reply #43 - 07/03/07 at 13:34:30
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MNb wrote on 06/26/07 at 01:30:15:
The W-R Gambit is quite dubious, to say it friendly: 6.f3 c5! and 6.f3 e5! are both good. Such stuff demands 20 minutes preparation by Black and (s)he will be better. So it is a bad recommendation.
I will be happy to discuss the W-R Gambit in a separate thread. I tried to make it work a few years ago and failed.


To be honest, I really doubt this.
The WRG is still played in corr, and things are - to say it friendly - not at all as easy as you suggest.
I played several corr. theme tourneys with that line, and I'm pretty sure that there's a lot of resources in the WRG that are not part of "official theory"
To be honest I pretty much think that the WRG is - concerning its "correctness" on the same "level" as the Milner Barry.

I you open a WRG thread I will definitely post some things there.
  

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Re: What against french for 7 years old kid?
Reply #42 - 07/02/07 at 18:03:28
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kylemeister wrote on 06/18/07 at 20:36:56:
I suppose you might consider 3. ed ed 4. c4 ...has a kind of open/active/classical flavour; has some pretty clear ideas; might tend to discomfit French players (though it can lead to a sort of Tarrasch French reversed ....).  Has been played by e.g. GMs Wolff, Miezis, Ashley and IM Waitzkin.


Yes.  I teach a lot of 7-year-olds -- though only two have been of national champion caliber and none have been 2100 elo -- and I teach them to play 3. exd5 exd5  4. c4.  It's exciting, and it leads open positions, which young and improving players should specialize in.

However I am less sure of this recommendation for such a strong player.  It seems to me that by the time you're 2100, you must understand fairly well the principles of play in open positions.  If you have the time to study the variations, I think 3. Nc3 is probably the best way to go, and certainly the most natural.

Ah, now I see that it's the coach, not the kid, that is 2100.  Whew!  In that case, I revert to the Exchange French with 4. c4.  One key idea, by the way, is to interpose the bishop on e3 when checked early on the e-file and then, if Black plays ...Ng4 or ...Nd5 to win the pawn, just castle and let him win it.  The corrolary is that the f1 bishop belongs on d3, not e2 to prevent the check.  E.g. 4. c4 Nf6  5. Nf3 Bb4+  6. Nc3 0-0  7. Bd3 Re8+  8. Be3 Ng4  9. 0-0!  And similarly if checked by the queen.   

Another key point is to react to an early ...Bg4 with Qb3, either immediately or after cxd5.  This is often good even if ...Bxf3 doubles your f-pawns.

It's not a "reversed Tarrasch" though, since Black is missing an e-pawn, not a c-pawn.
  

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Re: What against french for 7 years old kid?
Reply #41 - 06/26/07 at 12:00:35
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From Willempie:
Quote:
PPS @SF I have the same problem and I am also moderating. Maybe I'll email Tony about it, though of course I never make typo's so it isnt really a problem for me  


Thanks, I appreciate your help.  I thought that once I became a "God member" my typos would disappear.  Oh well.


@ Lou Cyber,

I love your quote under Tigger!

Cheers all!

Smiley
  
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Re: What against french for 7 years old kid?
Reply #40 - 06/26/07 at 10:17:08
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MNb wrote on 06/21/07 at 02:05:49:

The Advance with 6.Be2 is sound though and will pay off on the long term. The same with the Universal System (or Kortsjnoj Variation) after 3.Nd2. In fact play after this is similar to the Milner-Barry Gambit with the benefit, that White's pawn sac is sound. I clearly remember how I had to suffer as Black against a weaker opponent.


Hi,
this thread teached me that my repertoireagainst the french has got a name (Universal / Kortschnoj Variation) after all.

I used to play the Tarrasch, but had trouble after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4, perhaps mainly because the frenchies know so damned well how to handle the typical middlegame structure. So I switched to 5.Ngf3 and have achieved better results with this more open and tactical line.

After 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3 play may transpose after Nf6 5.e5 Nfd7. Alternatively black can play a6 or Nc6. According to my resources (Psakhis book on the Tarrasch) white can reach a less investigated position, but may not hope of large opening advantage.

So I would recommend this system for young players. Playing the advance for the educational benefit (how to handle closed positions) is still probably the most valuable advice, if you look for improvement of play and not the rating.

I would shun the various shortcuts and anti-options, because they mainly have surprise value. This includes the Réti Gambit 1.e4 e6 2.b3, which still is a very good and fun to play alternative to get around the french problem.

Lou
  

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Re: What against french for 7 years old kid?
Reply #39 - 06/26/07 at 06:31:50
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Ender wrote on 06/20/07 at 19:58:24:
Because if You play main lines You must remember a lot. And I just wanna give him a tool for interesting middlegame, with lot of tactical and technical resources. We don't have much time to study tons of theory, that's why I 'm searching for shortcuts. Our main goal is to improve his tactical and strategical abilites, and just create opening repertoire, which give him playable and interesting positions.

Well as others have said it is an either/or question (basically the main reason the French is popular). Either you invest a lot of effort into a dangerous line such as the Milner Barry or various Qg4 lines or you dont invest much time at all and play something conceptually simple but which will get you a decent middle game position.
Personally I'd go with the 2nd option and I'll just repeat my suggestion of the exchange. Especially if you follow up with c4 it gives plenty of open play with initiative (often the famed isolated d-pawn appears), but without going through reams of analysis.

PS your English is quite decent so no worries, much better than some posts I have seen from natives.

PPS @SF I have the same problem and I am also moderating. Maybe I'll email Tony about it, though of course I never make typo's so it isnt really a problem for me Wink
  

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Re: What against french for 7 years old kid?
Reply #38 - 06/26/07 at 02:45:31
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Ostap,

For some reason, I only have those options on the General Chess group (the one I moderate).  I used to be able to do that for all my comments, but I haven't been able to make changes for several months now.
  
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