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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Alekhine īs line against modern (Read 27147 times)
Bibs
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Re: Alekhine īs line against modern
Reply #37 - 07/16/09 at 03:09:08
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Well, Leon (Piasetski), my erstwhile Japan near-neighbour, is returning to higher level chess after a maybe 20-30 year absence. So not too much should be read into his choice of openings yet, as he finds his feet again this year.

As for Shirov...?
  
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Re: Alekhine īs line against modern
Reply #36 - 07/15/09 at 19:06:03
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I am a bit puzzled with a line on the Miles

After 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. Nxe5 c6

the move 6. c4 is considered not to be good for White on the account
of 6... Nb4 !. Several expositions by GMs and IMs on this variation
agree with this.

However on the Canadian Open, Shirov played 6. c4 against Piasetski
whihc in turn replied 6... Nf6.

Something I don't and should know?
  
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Re: Alekhine īs line against modern
Reply #35 - 06/30/09 at 19:58:52
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TN wrote on 06/30/09 at 07:07:56:
I am surprised that 4...Nb6 has gone unmentioned as a playable antidote to 4.Nf3. I haven't looked closely at Karolyi's large Yearbook survey on this line, but my opinion is that White should retain a small edge with 5.a4. Then again, the other Alekhine variations are also +=.


We talked about it just a little in another thread, I forget which one.  I've played this twice, scoring one nice win and once getting crushed.  I would like to experiment with it more.  I have made notes of Karolyi's variations, but I haven't been over them critically.
  

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Re: Alekhine īs line against modern
Reply #34 - 06/30/09 at 07:07:56
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I am surprised that 4...Nb6 has gone unmentioned as a playable antidote to 4.Nf3. I haven't looked closely at Karolyi's large Yearbook survey on this line, but my opinion is that White should retain a small edge with 5.a4. Then again, the other Alekhine variations are also +=.
  

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Re: Alekhine īs line against modern
Reply #33 - 06/26/09 at 12:21:28
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Muchas gracias.
  

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Re: Alekhine īs line against modern
Reply #32 - 06/25/09 at 21:52:42
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@Papageno

What lg said - though I've not seen the article itself, I was made aware of the 13...b6 idea and the games some time back, and on a superficial glance I saw nothing for white. 8.g3 seems far more worrying to me.

Markovich - I played it in a lot of blitz/correspondence games for 18 months or so and still trot it out occasionally, but I can't claim that my notes at this moment go significantly beyond those in Kaissiber by Fleck. I have found one or two minor improvements but most of what he put in the article (although difficult to navigate at times without any grasp of German) seems to hold up to scrutiny. A lot of the positions are on a knife-edge but I have found nothing which worries me as black. the line after 7.Nc3 given in Kaissiber is probably the critical one, and white might have a small improvement over Fleck's analysis with 16.O-O-O, but still black's position is holdable. If that isn't to your taste, then I also have done some analysis on the alternative 7...e5 which Fleck does not rate so highly, but in probability is the correct move. After 8.d5 Nd4 (8...Nb4 is also interesting, though white should be able to secure an edge with correct play) 9.Nxd4 exd4 10.Qxd4 e5 11.dxe6 Bxe6 black is fine. Fleck instead gives 11.Qd1! Bf5 12.Bd3 Qd7 13.O-O Be7 14.Be3 O-O, but further down his line he seems to feel white is doing well here. I don't think there is anything wrong with black's position and that any white edge is solely visual. There are no other lines besides 7.Nc3 which would worry me, however.

As I say, 5.exd6 is annoying solely as a matter of taste. Objectively this cannot be critical in the same way that I do not believe the Exchange variation in general to be critical. 5.Bb5 is another move that will be seen more often than you might think, but black is doing fine here, too.
  

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Re: Alekhine īs line against modern
Reply #31 - 06/25/09 at 19:07:27
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Papageno

There is a nice article by Ruslan Scherbakov in NIC 76

After 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. Nxe5 Nd7 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qh5+ Ke6 8. c4 N5f6 9. d5+ Kd6 10. Qf7 Ne5 11. Bf4 c5 12. Nc3 a6 13. b4

he suggests 13 ...b6! as  equalizing. This was played before but apparently did not catch up because Black lost after either
14. bxc5, 14. Rb1. However, his analysis shows that Black is Ok, or even better,
and he suggests  14. b5 instead. But his analysis on the game Ponkartov, Tomilin give equality.
  
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Re: Alekhine īs line against modern
Reply #30 - 06/25/09 at 16:30:38
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@CraigEvans
As for 4...dxe5 5.Nxe5 Nd7, a GM might well go for the safer 6.Nf3 in a simul. Other other hand, I thought that the following lines put black under pressure:

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. Nxe5 Nd7 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qh5+ Ke6 8. c4 N5f6 9. d5+ Kd6 10. Qf7 Ne5 11. Bf4 c5 12. Nc3 a6 13. b4 Qb6 14. Rc1
or 10... Nb8 11. c5+ Kd7 12. Bb5+ c6 13. dxc6+ bxc6 14. O-O

Any new developments here, or would you chose a different path for black?
  
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Re: Alekhine īs line against modern
Reply #29 - 06/25/09 at 15:53:09
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Well thanks for those games, which I'll look at carefully.  Do you regularly play this 4...Nc6 line?  Do you have notes on it that go significantly beyond the article in Kaissiber?

I would find this attractive if I thought it were sound.  I'm not so concerned about ...exd6.  It's a game of chess.

  

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Re: Alekhine īs line against modern
Reply #28 - 06/25/09 at 13:31:35
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He may lose little in the sense that it is perfectly playable, but the ...exd6 Exchange has never been much to my taste. However, my score in the standard lines after 6.e6 fxe6 etc, even in the critical line with 7.Nc3 g6 8.h4 Bg7 9.Be3, has been excellent. I won a nice game against some GM on ICC with this line a few months back, and have other notable results in it... although, of course, online games are no substitute for real OTB games. Nonetheless it was a complicated struggle and white played what I consider to be the strongest moves for quite some time. A couple of games:

[Event "ICC 5 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2009.04.09"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Rikku"]
[Black "LeSacAttack"]
[Result "1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2313"]
[BlackElo "2266"]
[Opening "Alekhine's defense: modern variation"]
[ECO "B04"]
[NIC "AL.05"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. c4 Nb6 6. e6 fxe6 7. Nc3 g6 8. h4 Bg7 9. Be3 O-O 10. h5 e5 11. d5 Nd4 12. Nxd4 exd4 13. Bxd4 e5 14. Be3 Bf5 15. g4 Bd7 16. hxg6 hxg6 17. Bd3 e4 18. Nxe4 Na4 19. Ng5 Nxb2 20. Bxg6 Qxg5 21. Bxg5 Nxd1 22. Rxd1 Bxg4 23. Rd3 Bf5 24. Bxf5 Rxf5 25. Rg3 Re8+ 26. Kf1 Kf7 27. Be3 Re7 28. Rh7 Kg8 29. Rh4 Kf7 30. Kg2 a6 31. a4 Bf6 32. Rh7+ Kf8 33. Bh6+ Ke8 34. Rg8+ Kd7 35. Rxe7+ Bxe7 36. Rb8 b6 37. a5 bxa5 38. Ra8 Bg5
39. Bxg5 Rxg5+ 40. Kf3 Rg1 41. Ke3 Re1+ 42. Kd3 Rd1+ 43. Kc3 Rf1 44. Rxa6 Rxf2 45. Rxa5 Rf3+ 46. Kb4 Rf4 47. Ra7 Rf1 48. Ra8 Rb1+ 49. Kc3 Rc1+ 50. Kd3 Rd1+ 51. Kc2 Rd4 52. Kc3 Rd1 53. Rh8 Rc1+ 54. Kd3 Rd1+ 55. Kc2 Rd4 56. Kc3 Rd1 57. Rh7+ Kc8 58. Kb4 Rb1+ 59. Ka4 Ra1+ 60. Kb5 Rb1+ 61. Ka4 Ra1+ 62. Kb3 Rb1+ 63. Kc2 Rb4 64. Kc3 Rb1 65. Rh8+ Kb7 66. Rh7 Rc1+ 67. Kb3 Rb1+ 68. Kc2 Rb4 69. Kc3 Rb1 70. Rh8 Rc1+ 71. Kb4 Rb1+ 72. Ka3 Rc1 73. Kb3 Rb1+ 74. Kc2 Rb4 75. Kc3 Rb2 76. Kd4 Rd2+ 77. Kc3 Rd1 78. Kc2 Rd4 79. Kb3 Rd1 80. Kb2 Rd4 (black missed a few things in the game but was never in any danger, and this is supposedly a critical line)

[Event "ICC 5 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2008.11.10"]
[Round "-"]
[White "sekere"]
[Black "LeSacAttack"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ICCResult "White resigns"]
[WhiteElo "1891"]
[BlackElo "2056"]
[Opening "Alekhine's defense: modern variation"]
[ECO "B04"]
[NIC "AL.05"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. c4 Nb6 6. e6 fxe6 7. h4 e5 8. d5 Nd4 9. Nxd4 exd4 10. Qxd4 e5 11. dxe6 Bxe6 12. Bg5 Qd7 13. Bd3 h6 14. Bg6+ Bf7 15. Qe4+ Be7 16. Bxf7+ Kxf7 17. Be3 Bf6 18. Nc3 Rhe8 19. Qf3 Nxc4 20. O-O-O Nxe3 21. fxe3 Qc6 22. Kb1 Qxf3 23. gxf3 Bxc3 24. bxc3 {White resigns} 0-1

The main factor here is that white sacrifices a pawn. Black still gets his share of the chances, but white is committed to aiming for a knockout which doesn't seem to exist. If he is inaccurate black will win, if he is accurate then black still has chances. And some of the lines with saccing the Rh8 and your K ending up on d7 are highly entertaining, also.

Well, Caruana chose (...4...dxe5 5.Nxe5 Nd7) 6.Nf3 against me in a simul recently, and he chose to sacrifice a pawn in the 6...e6 with ...c5 lines. I elieve that Cox recommended 6...c6 instead and from database searches this line seems to be doing quite well for black. As I've said, I can't believe that retreating the knight can be in any way critical for the line, and if 6.Nf3 is best then 5...Nd7 is the strongest reply.

I am not particularly up to date on the theory of 6.Nxf7, so if someone here is more au fait with it, then I would be very interested in an update. But the 8.c4 lines seem good for nothing more than a draw, so white's eggs are all in the 8.g3 basket. I personally believe that black should be surviving here, although I can not pretend to be an expert on it.
  

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Re: Alekhine īs line against modern
Reply #27 - 06/25/09 at 12:22:58
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Craig, I have somewhat revised my opinion of 4...Nc6 against the Modern, only in the sense that I no longer think that 5.exd6 is likely to be all that good for White.  The reason is that even in the Exchange with ...exd6, Black nowadays is playing the early ...Nc6 so as to prevent White's system with Nc3, Bd3 and Nge2 (this was recently observed by Watson).  So it would seem that Black loses little if play goes in that direction. 

I must admit to complete ignorance about the merits of Black's game in the standard e6 gambit reply, though I am suspicious of it.

As for 4...dxe5 5.Nxe5 Nd7, doesn't White have perfectly fine play after 6.Nf3?  Besides that isn't White good in the sacrifice line, as well?
  

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Re: Alekhine īs line against modern
Reply #26 - 06/24/09 at 18:19:35
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Theoretically I don't believe 3.Nc3 is a major threat, but I've never liked black's position in some of those lines. I'm sure black is fine but, as you say, white is white.

The 4PA seems to be doing well at the moment for black in theoretical terms, which is a nice position to be in - there have been moments where black seemed to be on his last legs, so it's nice that he currently has a choice of systems. Personally I still feel 6...c5 with 7...g6 to be completely viable and that's my preferred route, but the 6...Nc6 lines are also definitely playable at present. Sadly I agree that, based on the current work of yourself and LG, 11...Bg4 seems under a bit of a cloud, but I'm sure black has resources there too. It's certainly not "losing".

I share your opinion on the scandinavian, but I must admit to not disliking black's position after 5...c6. What is your opinion on the 5...Nd7 lines - they seem to be very often ignored here and I would be interested to see if you believe that white is definitely better after 6.Nxf7. It is my opinion that if black is surviving after 6.Nxf7 in the 8.g3 lines (as far as I know, no improvements have been found for white in the old main line, and black is more than fine if white tries for more than a draw there), then 5...Nd7 is objectively the strongest way of meeting the modern. Of course, if you can't afford a draw... well, that's Hobson's choice really, play a riskier system and risk losing, or risk your opponent playing a forced draw.

Yes, in an ideal world 4...Bg4 would work. But I have never cared too much for the Flohr system, and from all I have read here and elsewhere it does seem that 5...e6 is looking a little dicey. I have to also admit that I have never cared much for Alburt's 4...g6, although this might be an avenue to investigate. 4...Nc6 used to be my preference but the problem for black is 5.exd6 as you correctly note - I have tried to make the odd 5...Qxd6 work, but with little success. However, I have absolute confidence of the soundness of black's position in the 5.c4 Nb6 6.e6?! lines, and in the future I would not be surprised if people eventually come to regard this line as inferior for white. If you ever get around to analysing this in any depth I would be very interested in comparing conclusions with you.
  

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Re: Alekhine īs line against modern
Reply #25 - 06/24/09 at 17:20:20
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lg wrote on 02/25/09 at 11:24:29:
Herbie

In the same way that the Topalov-carlsen game was not considered a
big achievement for Black (since White did not play the best moves) I also think that this Svidler - baburin should not be considered a big
achievement for White. Svidler played quite well but I guess from teh Alekhine defence point of view he did not follow known lines for Black which are supposed not to be bad (of course, Baburin is an Alekhine expert and may know a lot more than us, common human beings).

The game went 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 dxe5 5.Nxe5 c6 6.Be2 g6 7.c4 Nc7 8.Nc3 Bg7 9.Be3 0-0 10.f4 Nd7 11.0-0 Nxe5 12.fxe5 c5 13.dxc5 Bxe5 14.Qe1 Bd4 15.Bf3 e5 16.Rd1 a5 17.Bxd4 exd4 18.Qe5 Ne6 19.Nb5 Qe7 20.Nd6 Qc7 21.Bd5 Ra6 22.Kh1 h5 23.Rf6 1-0

After 6. Be2, Black either plays 6... Bf5 or 6.... Nd7. These moves are
well surveyed in a recent chessbase magazine (123, I think) and
6....Bf5 7. g4 was played in a recent game Navara-Short.
By playing 6 ... g6, he probably mixed two systems making a an hybrid between the Miles and Kengis (more precisely, I think the game startes as Miles and after move 6, it become an Kengis). However, you
should note that Baburin is an Alekhine expert.


With due respect to Baburin, I don't like ...Nc7.  I would have preferred ...Nb6 with transposition to a Kengis.  Against the Miles, I don't think that 6.Bc4 can be much, because with 6...g6 it simply transposes into the Kengis and Black has avoided c2-c4.  So if the Miles is to be refuted, it must be with something else.  Either that or the Kengis with 6.Bc4 is bad, which I doubt.

As I have said before, my problem with Miles's variation is how stodgy and Scandinavian-like it is.  The Scandinavian makes me want to throw up, quite frankly.  I keep wanting 4...Bg4 to work, because it appeals to my perhaps simple-minded desire to get my pieces out and challenge White's center.  But if I ever give up on 4...Bg4 I would probably consider Kengis before Miles, just because 5...g6 looks more active to my simple mind than 5...c6 does.

I once considered the Four Pawns to be a major challenge to Alekhine's, and no doubt it is theoretically critical, but my present view is that the Modern is the best way for White to challenge Alekhine's.  For the time being in the 4PA, it seems that 6...Nc6 holds up well with either 9...Be7 or 9...Qd7, 10...0-0-0 and Mile's 11...Kb8 step (but not, unfortunately, with 11...Bg4 if our present reasearches are correct).  I don't share Craig's view that 3.Nc3 (which Bagirov called the "Vienna Variation") is much of a threat to Alekhine's, though I admit that White is White there.
  

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Re: Alekhine īs line against modern
Reply #24 - 06/24/09 at 15:37:52
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I'm not sure that 4...dxe5 necessarily leads to positions that similar to the scandinavian. 5...Nd7 might not be to everyone's taste, but I think it is perfectly logical if black is happy with a draw, and am not 100% convinced that it is wise for white to play for more with 8.g3. If 6.Nf3 (as Caruana played against me in an internet simul a few weeks back) is white's best, then this line is more than playable for black.

Also, I have not seen many lines after 5...c6 which convince me that white has much of an edge. 6.c4?! Nb4! is doing well, and 6.Be2 Bf5! looks like a perfectly valid continuation to me - 7.c4 is clearly not advisable now, and 7.O-O Nd7 looks to give black a pretty pleasant position with harmonious development after ...e6, ...Bd6. One game I had in that line continued 8.c4?! Nb4 9.Nd3?! e5! and black, with this thematic thrust, has already more-than equalised.

I will echo what other Alekhine practicioners here have said - the Modern would not put me off playing the opening as black. I worry more about 3.Nc3 if I'm honest.
  

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Re: Alekhine īs line against modern
Reply #23 - 02/25/09 at 11:24:29
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Herbie

In the same way that the Topalov-carlsen game was not considered a
big achievement for Black (since White did not play the best moves) I also think that this Svidler - baburin should not be considered a big
achievement for White. Svidler played quite well but I guess from teh Alekhine defence point of view he did not follow known lines for Black which are supposed not to be bad (of course, Baburin is an Alekhine expert and may know a lot more than us, common human beings).

The game went 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 dxe5 5.Nxe5 c6 6.Be2 g6 7.c4 Nc7 8.Nc3 Bg7 9.Be3 0-0 10.f4 Nd7 11.0-0 Nxe5 12.fxe5 c5 13.dxc5 Bxe5 14.Qe1 Bd4 15.Bf3 e5 16.Rd1 a5 17.Bxd4 exd4 18.Qe5 Ne6 19.Nb5 Qe7 20.Nd6 Qc7 21.Bd5 Ra6 22.Kh1 h5 23.Rf6 1-0

After 6. Be2, Black either plays 6... Bf5 or 6.... Nd7. These moves are
well surveyed in a recent chessbase magazine (123, I think) and
6....Bf5 7. g4 was played in a recent game Navara-Short.
By playing 6 ... g6, he probably mixed two systems making a an hybrid between the Miles and Kengis (more precisely, I think the game startes as Miles and after move 6, it become an Kengis). However, you
should note that Baburin is an Alekhine expert.
  
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