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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C01: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book (Read 4875 times)
dom
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Re: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
Reply #18 - 10/07/07 at 11:37:45
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OK 6..cxd4 7.Re1+ Be7 8.Bb5 Bg4 9.Qxd4 Nf6 10.Ne5 Bd7 11. Bxc6 bxc6 12.Qe3 and Black has some difficult development problems to solve...and the sacrifice 9...Bxf3 10.Qxg7 Qd6 11.Qxh8 Qg6 is unsound
  

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Re: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
Reply #17 - 10/06/07 at 18:16:52
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 10/06/07 at 14:59:30:
Willempie,

Pace.

I wasn't referring to your comments about 6..c4 when I talked about the computer's recommendation.  I was referring to Fritz 10, which was mentioned in the initial post.  I understand that there are some positional reasons for playing 6...c4.  I am a bit surprised that a relatively strong human player would go chasing the Bishop on d3 and create a permanent weakness even with the open e-file.  I will have to look at Lalic' game.  Thanks for sharing it!

Still, I instinctively prefer the lines that I showed in the previous examples.  I liked the position that Kiselev reached in his game.

My latin is a bit rusty Grin

The other game (the draw) is better btw, it gives a convincing demonstration on why this line brings white nothing. In any case this whole Bd3 line is bad imo as you basically forego on the "threat" of c4 and are vulnerable to Bg4 (or Bf5 if black feels like the boring version of the exchange without c5).
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
Reply #16 - 10/06/07 at 16:14:04
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Thanks Dom and Kylemeister:

I am trying to figure out the purpose of ...Bg4 as Black can play 9.Qxd4 unpinning the N and after 9...Nf6 the wN can come to e5. And then the B comes back to d7.

White's moves above are very natural which is not something you want to a lower-rated player.

Is the reason for ...Bg4 that he wants to force White to retake on d4 with the Q and not the N? Or does he take the Nf3 after 9.Qxd4?

Take care,

Gerry

kylemeister wrote on 10/06/07 at 00:46:29:
dom wrote on 10/05/07 at 22:49:56:
Gerry1970 wrote on 10/05/07 at 03:58:05:
Hello All:

After 6.0-0 we played ...Bd6 7.Re1+ Ne7. Seems very comfortable for White. Maybe I ...0-0-0 now?

What am I missing?



6.oo cxd4 7.Re1+ Be7 8.Bb5+ Bg4! (Minev advice, "New and forgotten ideas about the French")



When I was thinking about this before, I though that after 8. Bb5 (not check) Bg4 White would play 9. Qxd4, with the idea ...Nf6 10. Ne5 and perhaps an edge.   On 10...Bd7, perhaps 11. Qa4.  Or are you saying there's some funky sac on g7?

  
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Re: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
Reply #15 - 10/06/07 at 16:07:26
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Hello Kylemeister:

I may have to get that book - I am meeting so many Exchange Variations in my online games (control  ca. 20 mins) that it's unbelievable.

Take care,

Gerry

kylemeister wrote on 10/05/07 at 17:15:44:
The line with the Re1+ zwischenzug is like a Kasparov-Korchnoi game which was supposed to be slightly better for White.  And I suppose 6...cd 7. Re1+ Be7 8. Bb5 could be slightly better for White.   ECO gives the immediate 5...c4 (leading to equality) which is certainly plausible to me.  Compare the line 1. e4 c5 2. c3 e6 3. d4 d5 4. ed ed 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Be2 c4, which is supposed to be about equal, and the French version seems a little better (for Black) than this.  These lines enable Black to play ...Bd6 and ...Nge7, which seems to me preferable (in that kind of position) to ...Nf6 and ...Be7. 

The way your game went looks like it could end up a better (tempo-up) version of a standard Tarrasch line for White.  I certainly wouldn't expect Black to castle long.   

Editing:  I would guess that you, Gerry, might like Edmar Mednis's book "Practical Opening Tips," which includes a chapter on the Exchange French.

  
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Re: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
Reply #14 - 10/06/07 at 15:01:53
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dom wrote on 10/05/07 at 22:49:56:
Gerry1970 wrote on 10/05/07 at 03:58:05:
Hello All:

After 6.0-0 we played ...Bd6 7.Re1+ Ne7. Seems very comfortable for White. Maybe I ...0-0-0 now?

What am I missing?



6.oo cxd4 7.Re1+ Be7 8.Bb5+ Bg4! (Minev advice, "New and forgotten ideas about the French")


That's quite a forgotten idea, to play 8...Bg4! in response to 8.Bb4  check!

Embarrassed
  
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Re: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
Reply #13 - 10/06/07 at 14:59:30
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Willempie,

Pace.

I wasn't referring to your comments about 6..c4 when I talked about the computer's recommendation.  I was referring to Fritz 10, which was mentioned in the initial post.  I understand that there are some positional reasons for playing 6...c4.  I am a bit surprised that a relatively strong human player would go chasing the Bishop on d3 and create a permanent weakness even with the open e-file.  I will have to look at Lalic' game.  Thanks for sharing it!

Still, I instinctively prefer the lines that I showed in the previous examples.  I liked the position that Kiselev reached in his game.
  
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Re: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
Reply #12 - 10/06/07 at 11:11:30
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 10/06/07 at 06:19:27:
There's a general rule that is pertinent to Fritz's 6...c4?!.  

Don't release the central tension without a good reason!


I don't think too many humans would seriously consider 6..c4?!  If confronted by it as White, I'd feel pretty happy.  This is similar to the feeling I get when people play c4-c5 in the Classical QGD, and for the same reason.  (See the above rule.)

I know that modern chess is becoming more and more rule independent, but this is a case where the computer didn't know the rule and just tried to grab space.

I just provided a link to Tatai-Korchnoi in another French thread, but I'll toss it in here.


http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1082469

I think you are barking up the wrong tree here. I didnt come to that move via silicon help Wink
It is a very logical move. Ideally in this position after 6..c4 white would want pressure on d5, with moves such as Bf1, g3, Bg2 (as in the Tarrasch defense). Furthermore the bishop is now sorta forced to block the e-file as otherwise Bg4 looks pretty nasty.

Your analogy with the QGD is a bit misleading. Firstly the e-file is open. Secondly the c4-c5 move is certainly not idiotic in many variations. Thirdly check the Tarrasch lines with the move c5-c4 (iirc the Swedish variation). This position is imo better for black than in the Tarrasch line, due to the bishop being on e2. Lastly the b6 move is usually a decent equaliser in the QGD lines, but I think white should be after more than equality.

Here a game where a 2000 player keeps an 2400 to a draw with relative comfort:
[Event "Najdorf mem op-A"]
[Site "Grodzisk Mazowiecki"]
[Date "2007.07.20"]
[White "Sharapov,Evgeny"]
[Black "Winski,Lukasz"]
[Result "1/2"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3 c5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.0-0 c4 7.Be2 Bd6 8.b3 cxb3 9.axb3 Nge7 10.c4 0-0 11.Nc3 Bg4 12.h3 Bxf3 13.Bxf3 dxc4 14.bxc4 Nxd4 15.Bxb7 Rb8 16.Be4 f5 17.Bd5+ Nxd5 18.Nxd5 Bc5 19.Be3 Qh4 20.f4 Rb3 21.Bf2 Rxh3 22.gxh3 Qxh3 23.Re1 Nf3+ 24.Qxf3 Qxf3 25.Bxc5 Qg3+ 26.Kf1 Qd3+ 27.Kg2 Qxc4 28.Ne7+ Kh8 29.Ng6+ hxg6 30.Bxf8 Qxf4 31.Bc5 Qg4+ 32.Kf2 Qf4+ 33.Kg1 Qg4+ 34.Kf1 Qc4+ 35.Kg2 Qg4+ 36.Kf2 Qf4+ 37.Ke2 Qc4+ 38.Kf3 Qg4+ 39.Ke3 Qe4+ 40.Kf2 Qf4+ 41.Kg1 Qg4+ 42.Kf1 Qc4+ 43.Kg2 Qg4+ 1/2

Plus a game of Lalic (who is obviously unaware of not following your rules Wink):
[Event "Zadar op"]
[Date "2004.12.13"]
[White "Mihalj,M Miroslav"]
[Black "Lalic,Bogdan"]
[Result "0-1"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3 c5 5.Nf3 c4 6.Be2 Nc6 7.0-0 Bd6 8.b3 cxb3 9.axb3 Nge7 10.c4 0-0 11.Nc3 Bf5 12.Bg5 f6 13.Be3 Kh8 14.c5 Bc7 15.Qd2 Ng6 16.Ra4 Qd7 17.b4 a6 18.Rfa1 Rae8 19.b5 axb5 20.Nxb5 Bb8 21.Nc3 Bg4 22.Qa2 Be6 23.Rb1 f5 24.Bd2 f4 25.Bf1 Bf5 26.Rb6 Be4 27.Be2 Qe7 28.h3 Bxf3 29.Bxf3 Nh4 30.Qxd5 Rd8 31.Rxb7 Nxf3+ 32.Qxf3 Qxb7 33.d5  0-1

  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
Reply #11 - 10/06/07 at 08:24:35
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Hello Smyslov Fan:

Thanks. I hate those structures with ...c4.

I will try and play thru those games tomorrow. Seems that Re1+ is important to stop Black getting the B to d6.

Take care,

Gerry

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 10/06/07 at 06:19:27:
There's a general rule that is pertinent to Fritz's 6...c4?!.

Don't release the central tension without a good reason!


I don't think too many humans would seriously consider 6..c4?!  If confronted by it as White, I'd feel pretty happy.  This is similar to the feeling I get when people play c4-c5 in the Classical QGD, and for the same reason.  (See the above rule.)

I know that modern chess is becoming more and more rule independent, but this is a case where the computer didn't know the rule and just tried to grab space.

I just provided a link to Tatai-Korchnoi in another French thread, but I'll toss it in here.


http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1082469




  
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Re: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
Reply #10 - 10/06/07 at 07:09:58
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Here's another game that I offer without analysis.  Ok, I will say this. 

Wow.

Shocked




Trushelyov,V (2394) - Kiselev,S (2517) [C01]
Suetin mem Tula (9), 2002

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3 c5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.0-0 cxd4 7.Nbd2 Bc5 8.Nb3 Bb6 9.Bb5 Nge7 10.Nbxd4 0-0 11.Be3 Bg4 12.Qd2 Re8 13.c3 Bc7 14.Rfe1 Qd6 15.g3 Qg6 16.Bf4 Bb6 17.Ne5 Qh5 18.Nexc6 Nxc6 19.Nxc6 bxc6 20.Bxc6 Rxe1+ 21.Rxe1 Rd8 22.Qxd5 Qxd5 23.Bxd5 g5 24.Bxf7+ Kxf7 25.Bxg5 Rd3 26.Kg2 Bf3+ 27.Kg1 Kg6 28.Bf4 Kf5 29.h3 h5 30.Re5+ Kf6 31.Re1 Bd5 32.Be3 Bxe3 33.fxe3 Bxa2 34.Ra1 Bd5 35.Rxa7 Rxe3 36.Ra6+ Ke5 37.Rg6 Kf5 38.Rg7 Kf6 39.Rd7 Rxg3+ 40.Kf2 Rg2+ 41.Kf1 Be6 42.Rh7 Rg5 43.h4 Rf5+ 44.Ke2 Bf7 45.Rh6+ Bg6 46.Rh8 Rf4 47.b4 Rxh4 48.b5 Rh2+ 49.Ke3 Rb2 50.c4 Ke5 51.Rh6 Rb3+ 52.Kd2 Kf6 53.Rh8 Kg7 54.Rd8 h4 55.Rd4 h3 56.Rh4 Bf5 57.Ke2 Kg6 58.Kf2 Kg5 59.Rh8 Kf4 0-1


Anyone who says the French Exchange is boring hasn't played through this game.
  
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Re: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
Reply #9 - 10/06/07 at 07:02:29
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Here's a game I found with 6.0-0.  The result is very promising for White, but I think Black may be on to something in the way he defended.



Oblitas Guerrero,C (2389) - Salazar,C (2243) [C01]
PER-ch Lima (8), 1999

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3 c5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.0-0 cxd4 [6...Nf6 7.Re1+ Be7 8.dxc5 0-0 9.Be3 Ne4˛

I am not sure how much I like Black's plan here.  I don't see anything tactically wrong with it, but it seems a bit artificial to me.  White has several reasonable plans, including 10.c3, Bc2, Nbd2 with preparations for kingside pressure or 10.c4, trying to take advantage of Black's awkardly placed pieces in the center.
]

7.Re1+ Be7 8.Bb5 a6 9.Bxc6+ bxc6 10.Nxd4 Bd7

Probably the most consistent move is 10...c5.  This would give White a slight advantage in a classical hanging pawns position.  I wouldn't envy Black's position, but I don't think it's losing.

[10...c5 11.Nc6 Qd6 12.Nxe7 Nxe7 13.Nc3 0-0˛] 11.Bg5 f6 12.Bf4 Kf7 13.c4 g5 This doesn't change the evaluation of the position, but it does allow for a rather startling sacrifice by White.  White could also respond by retreating the B and retain a nice advantage.

14.cxd5!? gxf4 15.dxc6 Bg4?

[15...Bc8 16.Nc3!! (16.Qb3+?? Kg7 17.Ne6+ Bxe6 18.Qxe6 Qc8 19.Nc3 Qxe6 20.Rxe6 Kf7-+ 21.Rae1 Bb4) 16...Kg7±] 16.Qxg4 White doesn't even have to play particularly difficult moves to win from here. 16...Qxd4 17.Qe6+ Kg6 18.Nc3 Qd6 19.Qg4+ Kf7 20.Qh5+ Kf8 21.Nd5 Rc8 22.Rad1 Rxc6 23.Nxe7 Nxe7 24.Rxd6 Rxd6 25.h3 h6 26.Qg4 1-0
  
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Re: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
Reply #8 - 10/06/07 at 06:19:27
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There's a general rule that is pertinent to Fritz's 6...c4?!.  

Don't release the central tension without a good reason!


I don't think too many humans would seriously consider 6..c4?!  If confronted by it as White, I'd feel pretty happy.  This is similar to the feeling I get when people play c4-c5 in the Classical QGD, and for the same reason.  (See the above rule.)

I know that modern chess is becoming more and more rule independent, but this is a case where the computer didn't know the rule and just tried to grab space.

I just provided a link to Tatai-Korchnoi in another French thread, but I'll toss it in here.


http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1082469



  
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Re: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
Reply #7 - 10/06/07 at 00:46:29
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dom wrote on 10/05/07 at 22:49:56:
Gerry1970 wrote on 10/05/07 at 03:58:05:
Hello All:

After 6.0-0 we played ...Bd6 7.Re1+ Ne7. Seems very comfortable for White. Maybe I ...0-0-0 now?

What am I missing?



6.oo cxd4 7.Re1+ Be7 8.Bb5+ Bg4! (Minev advice, "New and forgotten ideas about the French")



When I was thinking about this before, I though that after 8. Bb5 (not check) Bg4 White would play 9. Qxd4, with the idea ...Nf6 10. Ne5 and perhaps an edge.   On 10...Bd7, perhaps 11. Qa4.  Or are you saying there's some funky sac on g7?
  
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Re: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
Reply #6 - 10/05/07 at 22:49:56
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Gerry1970 wrote on 10/05/07 at 03:58:05:
Hello All:

After 6.0-0 we played ...Bd6 7.Re1+ Ne7. Seems very comfortable for White. Maybe I ...0-0-0 now?

What am I missing?



6.oo cxd4 7.Re1+ Be7 8.Bb5+ Bg4! (Minev advice, "New and forgotten ideas about the French")
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
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Re: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
Reply #5 - 10/05/07 at 17:15:44
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The line with the Re1+ zwischenzug is like a Kasparov-Korchnoi game which was supposed to be slightly better for White.  And I suppose 6...cd 7. Re1+ Be7 8. Bb5 could be slightly better for White.   ECO gives the immediate 5...c4 (leading to equality) which is certainly plausible to me.  Compare the line 1. e4 c5 2. c3 e6 3. d4 d5 4. ed ed 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Be2 c4, which is supposed to be about equal, and the French version seems a little better (for Black) than this.  These lines enable Black to play ...Bd6 and ...Nge7, which seems to me preferable (in that kind of position) to ...Nf6 and ...Be7.  

The way your game went looks like it could end up a better (tempo-up) version of a standard Tarrasch line for White.  I certainly wouldn't expect Black to castle long.   

Editing:  I would guess that you, Gerry, might like Edmar Mednis's book "Practical Opening Tips," which includes a chapter on the Exchange French.
« Last Edit: 10/05/07 at 19:35:42 by kylemeister »  
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Re: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
Reply #4 - 10/05/07 at 16:33:03
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Never trust computers' evaluations. They understand nothing in the opening, which is why they have book transplants. In the endgame, they are not even capable of spotting a fortress. They play strong moves because they calculate very deeply, but don't ask them to teach you anything. They haven't got a clue...
  
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Re: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
Reply #3 - 10/05/07 at 15:57:05
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Hello Willempie:

Fritz 10 recommends 6...c4 but still gives it close to 0.50 which seems a lot for me when Watson says no trouble for Black.

White can then use the Zwischenzug 7.Re1+ so I suppose the B will just go to e7 for now.

I suppose I didn't think of ...c4 as when Black plays 4...c5 he is trying to unbalance the Exchange Variation by getting into an Isolani position.

What should have alerted me to the fact that I should have changed plans so quickly and play ...c4.

Thanks,

Gerry
  
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Re: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
Reply #2 - 10/05/07 at 15:26:57
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Anything wrong with 6..c4 followed by Bd6?
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Help with Watson Line
Reply #1 - 10/05/07 at 15:20:11
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Hello All:

Any help would be appreciated. Really curious as Watson says Black should have no trouble in this line but he does not mention the natural 6.0-0.

Thanks in advance,

Gerry
  
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C01: Help with Exchange Line from Watson's Book
10/05/07 at 03:58:05
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Hello All:

I must be an opening moron. I just seem to run into difficulties so easily.

In my last game I follow a recommendation of John Watson (3rd Ed., page 77)

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3 c5 [and he says "against which White hasn't succeeded in finding any edge" - my opponent obviously didn't read this.]

5.Nf3 Nc6 and now instead of Watson's 6.Qe2+ (note c) my opponent plays 6.0-0.

This does not seem pleasant for Black and Fritz 10 give Black's "best" reply ...c4 as 0.42. Other moves like ...Bd6 (which you often want to play in these lines) is close to 0.90.

After 6.0-0 we played ...Bd6 7.Re1+ Ne7. Seems very comfortable for White. Maybe I ...0-0-0 now?

What am I missing?

Take care,

Gerry
« Last Edit: 07/30/11 at 15:21:36 by dom »  
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