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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Philidor Counter Gambit (PCG) (Read 11736 times)
breizatao
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Re: Philidor Counter Gambit (PCG)
Reply #14 - 07/10/08 at 11:52:54
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7...c6 is a interesting move played by a French player Stephane Morin in "correspondence" game. I had tried 7... Be6 but, in this time, I was not convinced by this move. Of course it was better than 7... Nc6.

Malmström Jan (SUE)  - Fournier Frederic (FRA)      
Corr, 15/01/2005
Northern Lights Team League Match 01


1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 f5 4. Nc3 fxe4 5. Nxe4 Nf6 6. Nxf6 gxf6 7. Be3 Be6 8. d5 Bf7 9. c4 Rg8!? 10. Qb3 Nd7 11. Qxb7 Rb8 12. Qxa7 Rxb2 13. Qa3 Qb8 14. Nd2 Qb4 15. Qxb4 Rxb4 16. a4 f5 17. f3 Bg7 18. Ra2 f4 19. Bf2 Bg6 20. a5 Ke7 21. Be2 Bb1![21... Ra8 22. a6 Nb8 23. a7 Nd7 24. O-O Rb7 25. Rfa1 (25. Ne4 Nf6 26. Nc3 Rb3 27. Nb5±) 25... e4!; 21... Bf6 22. O-O Bf5 23. Ne4 (23. Re1 Ra8 (23... Rgb8 24. a6 Nb6 25. Ne4 Bxe4 26. fxe4 Ra8 27. c5 Na4 28. cxd6 cxd6 29. Bd3±) 24. g3 Bg5 25. g4±) 23... Bh3 24. Bg3 fxg3 25. hxg3 not clear; 21... Rgb8 22. a6 Nb6 (22... Bb1 23. Nxb1 Rxb1 24. Bd1 Rc1 25. a7 Ra8 26. O-O) 23. a7 Ra8 24. O-O±] 22. Nxb1 Rxb1 23. Bd1 e4!! 24. Bh4 Kf7 25. g3 Rgb8 26. O-O Bd4 27. Kg2 R8b2 28. Rxb2 Rxb2 29. Kh3 e3 30. Re1 Ne5 31. Re2 Rd2 32. Rxd2 [32. gxf4 Nxc4 33. Re1 Nxa5 -/+] 32... exd2 33. Kg2 Nxc4 34. Kf1 Nxa5 [34... Nxa5 35. Bd8 (35. gxf4 c5 36. dxc6 Nxc6 37. Ke2 Bc3 38. Kd3 (38. Bf2 Kf6 39. Be3 Ne7 40. Bxd2 Bxd2 41. Kxd2 Kf5 42. Ke3 Nd5 43. Kd4 Nf6=) 38... Ba5 39. Ke4 Ne7 40. Bxe7 Kxe7 41. f5 h6=) 35... Be3 36. Bxc7 Nb7 37. gxf4 Bxf4 38. Bb6 Nc5 39. Ba5 (39. Bxc5? dxc5 40. Bb3 c4 41. Bc2 Kf6 -/+) 39... Nd3 40. Bxd2 Bxd2 41. Ke2 Nf4 42. Kxd2 Kf6 43. Bb3 Ke5=]
[½:½]
  
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AMM
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Re: Philidor Counter Gambit (PCG)
Reply #13 - 07/09/08 at 23:22:37
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1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 f5 4. Nc3 fxe4 5. Nxe4 Nf6 6. Nxf6 gxf6 7. Be3 ( 7.Bd3!? Cristian Bauer in his new book on Philidor ) 7..Be6 ( better as you comment; also 7..c6!? ) 8.g3 c6 9.Bg2 Nd7 10.0-0 Qc7 11.Nd2 d5 12.Qe2 h5 13.dxe5 fxe5 14.f4 h4 15.Nf3?! hxg3 16.hxg3 Bg4 17.fxe5 0-0-0 18.Qf2 Bxf3 19.e6? ( 19.Qxf3 ) 19..Bxg2 20.exd7 Qxd7 21.Qxg2 Bd6 22.Rf3? ( 22.Rae1 better ) 22..Rh3! 23.Raf1? ( 23.Re1 Qg4 24.Bf4 Rf8 -+ ) 23..Rdh8 0-1 Koudelka-Melchor, V LG World Tourney final, email, 2005-06  
  
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Re: Philidor Counter Gambit (PCG)
Reply #12 - 07/09/08 at 12:14:43
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AMM wrote on 06/05/08 at 21:09:01:
Breizatao,

  Maybe you remember me so I wrote in your blog ( Alejandro Melchor, Barcelona, Spain ). The relation between Latvian and PCG is often very close. In this last case I wrote  several long articles in previous letters; exactly on "realpolitik" quote http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1138114865/15 I wrote the following article: etc. etc.

           


Hello Alejandro!

I did not forget you. Your explanations are always simple and very instructive.

After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 f5 4. Nc3 fxe4 5. Nxe4 Nf6 6. Nxf6 gxf6 7. Be3 Nc6 8. Qe2N [8. Bb5 a6 9. Bxc6 bxc6 ~; 8. d5 Ne7 +=] I have tried 8... a6 [8... e4 9. Nd2 Bf5 (9... d5? 10. Qh5±) 10. g4 Bg6 11. d5 Ne5 12. Bg2 Bg7 13. Bxe4 Qd7 14. Rg1±; 8... Rg8 9. O-O-O Rg7 10. d5 Ne7 11. Qc4 c6 12. dxc6 Nxc6 13. Qd5 +=; 8... Bg4 9. Qb5!; 8... h5 9. O-O-O e4 10. Nh4 d5 11. Ng6±] 9. O-O-O Bg4 10. h3 [10. dxe5 fxe5 11. h3 Bf5 12. Qc4 Qd7 13. Bd3 Bxd3 14. Rxd3 O-O-O 15. Rhd1=] 10... Bh5 11. g4 Bf7 12. Bg2[12. d5 ~] 12... Rg8 [12... Qd7 13. dxe5 fxe5 14. Ng5] 13. a3 ±

Perhaps 9...Bg4 is wrong. 9...Bg7 is interesting but I have no idea. 7...Be6 seems better.

Fred Smiley
  
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Re: Philidor Counter Gambit (PCG)
Reply #11 - 06/05/08 at 21:09:01
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Breizatao,

  Maybe you remember me so I wrote in your blog ( Alejandro Melchor, Barcelona, Spain ). The relation between Latvian and PCG is often very close. In this last case I wrote  several long articles in previous letters; exactly on "realpolitik" quote http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1138114865/15 I wrote the following article:

           The sequence 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nc3 d6 4.d4 fxe4 5.Nxe4 or 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 is cited in some of the classical works I know, at least in "Winning with the Philidor" (Kosten, 1992) and "The Philidor Countergambit" (West, 1996), but in this point  they don't say anything on 5..Nf6, the correct answer instead of 5..d5. This last move is also known in Latvian gambit circles from long time ago as dubtious, not only for 6.Nxe5!?, if not also specially on 6.Neg5 h6 7.Nf7! - indeed, it is not Motwani's reccomendation, the move is known from a game Stepanov-Maljutin, Moscow, 1992 -.
            The reply 5..Nf6 is the only correct one and it has been tried by M. Downey ( first LG World Tournament champion ), Holland S. De Jong and I myself (!?). In "Myers Opening Butlletin", Maurits Wind already reccomended 6.Nxf6+ gxf6! but the line was already known by Alapin and Zuckertort  who analyzed 6.Qe2 and 6.Bd3 respectively - I don't see anything after 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Nxf6+ Bxf6 8.Bxf6 gxf6 either or even 7..gxf6!? -.
            After 5..Nf6 6.Nxf6 gxf6! ( it's easy to imagine logical 6..Qxf6?! is dubtious after 7.Bg5 ) I have 13 games in my base. It would be appropiate to think on benefiting relatively on Black King's broken flank after 7.Nh4 but 7..Be6 8.Qh5+ Bf7 doesn't anything, Hence, 7.dxe5 is played awaiting 7..fxe5? 8.Ng5! ( 8.Bc4 h6 still with some defence ) 8..Qf6 9.Bc4 with attack according Polugaievsky and played in Schwertel-Burghardt, corr., 1990-91, but, of course, the correct way is 7..dxe5!.
            Now the changes of Queens it is not suitable for White, the position is innocuous and Black's King have not any danger in the centre. Some examples:
            8.Qxd8+ Kxd8 9.Be3 Bg4 10.h3 Ba6 11.0-0-0 Nd7 12.Kb1 Bd6 13.Nd2 Ke7 (Sebastian-Hector, Spain, 1989, 0-1,39)
            8.Qxd8+ Kxd8 9.Bd3 Be6 10.0-0 Nd7 11.Nh4 c6 12.Bf5 Bxf5 13.Nxf5 Kc7 = (Gnirk-Melchor, corr. ICCF thematic, 2004-06)
            8.Qxd8+ Kxd8 9.Bd2 Bc5 or 9..Bg4 (Maurits Wind)

            Another tries:

            8.Bd3 Nc6? 9.Bd2 Be6 10.0-0 Qe7 11.Qe2 Rg8 12.Rfe1 0-0-0 = (Drüke-Downey, corr. LG thematic, 1990)
            8.Bd3 Nc6? 9.Ng5!! fxg5 10.Qh5+ Kd7 11.Bxg5 Be7 12.Bf5+ ( or 12.Bb5!? Qg8 13.0-0-0+ Bd6 14.Bf6 is even better) 12..Kd6 13.0-0-0+ Nd4 14.Bf4! +- with a very strong attack  (Leko-Tornyai, Keckskemet, 1992, 1-0,22)
    but 8.Bd3 Bg4 ( or 8..Be6 9.0-0 Nc6 10.Be4 Qd6, but not firstly 8..Nc6? by 9.Ng5! again ) 9.Qe2 Nc6 10.Bd2 ( 10.Be3 Qd5 = ) 10..Nd4 ( 10...Dd7 too ) 11.Qe3 ( some better 11.Qe4 ) 11..Bxf3 12.gxf3 Qd7 ( 12...Qd5!? ) 13.0-0-0 0-0-0 = (Schmidt-Lenz, Platz, 1996).

           The most interesting ( and exciting ) games, almost identical, was:

           8.Nd2!? Be6 9.Qf3 Bd5?! 10.Ne4 Be7 11.Be3 c6 12.0-0-0 Nd7 13.Rxd5!! cxd5 14.Qh5+ Kf8 15.Bb5! Nb6 16.Rd1 with:
              a) 16..h6 17.Qg6 Rg8 18.Ng3 Bc5 19.Nh5 Be7 20.Bxh6+ Rxh6 21.Qxh6+ Kf7 22.Rd3 Rg8 23.Rf3 Rxg2 24.Rxf6+ Kg8 25.Ng3 Qh7 26.Qg5+  1-0  (Krantz-Downey, corr.,1990-91), and
             b) 16..Kg8 17.Rd3 Bf8 18.Be8! Qe7 19.Bc5  1-0  (De Jong-Melchor, corr., ICCF thematic, 1998-99)

          Of course, it is necessary to improve Blak's play; a simple idea is 9..Nc6 10.Bb5 Qd7 with idea Bg4 and / or 0-0-0 ( also 10..h5!? 11.0-0 Be7 ) 11.Ne4 ( 11.Qxf6 Rg8 12.0-0 Be7 and 0-0-0 with clear compensation ) 11..0-0-0! 12.Nxf6 e4!?.
          Another idea: 9..c6 10.Ne4 Nd7 ( 10..Bg7 11.Bh6! ) 11.Be3 Qa5+

          SO YOU SEE BREIZATAO ( Frederic ) we must learn already very much with the traspositions !?.
           Best wishes !
  
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Re: Philidor Counter Gambit (PCG)
Reply #10 - 04/14/08 at 09:41:23
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realpolitik wrote on 04/10/08 at 19:09:30:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1138114865/0

the above thread has some detailed analysis of the philidor counter gambit including the line just under discussion


No relation between PCG and Latvian Gambit...  Huh
  
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Re: Philidor Counter Gambit (PCG)
Reply #9 - 04/10/08 at 19:09:30
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http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1138114865/0

the above thread has some detailed analysis of the philidor counter gambit including the line just under discussion
  
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Re: Philidor Counter Gambit (PCG)
Reply #8 - 03/25/08 at 12:03:40
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OstapBender wrote on 03/22/08 at 18:39:07:
The 6.Neg5 line might be one of these "refutations" you refer to; it looks pretty strong for White.  The variations below are based on analysis given by Dennis Monokroussos at his blog The Chess Mind.

See: http://chessmind.powerblogs.com/posts/1175389056.shtml

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Neg5




hmmm! I think that the variation followed by 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5?! is not so good for Black. The answer 6.Neg5! is excellent and despite efforts make by Jim West about it (see the discussion between Monokroussos and West. The link is given above by our friend OstapBender), White has a good play.  5... Nf6 is a better choice. However I have had some difficulties in a recent postal chess versus a strong player named Pierre Bergman: 6.Nxf6 gxf6 7.Be3! Nc6 8.Qe2 (novelty) and now ?
  
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Re: Philidor Counter Gambit (PCG)
Reply #7 - 03/24/08 at 10:56:23
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But there is a memory,

And the more complicated, the more difficult,

Chess analyses can be,

It is like climbing a giant 2,000 -year-old Sequoia tree.
  
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Re: Philidor Counter Gambit (PCG)
Reply #6 - 03/24/08 at 10:36:03
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Gambit wrote on 03/24/08 at 04:03:24:
All this analyses needs to be memorized. For this reason, I do not think 6 Neg5 will be seen in over-the-board tournaments anytime soon. Postal, perhaps. But not OTB.

Imagine there's no memory
It isn't hard for you
Nothing to read or write for
And no nerved ones too
Imagine all our forum
Living life in peace


Dedicated to Gambit after a song from J. Lennon
  
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Re: Philidor Counter Gambit (PCG)
Reply #5 - 03/24/08 at 04:03:24
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All this analyses needs to be memorized. For this reason, I do not think 6 Neg5 will be seen in over-the-board tournaments anytime soon. Postal, perhaps. But not OTB.
  
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Re: Philidor Counter Gambit (PCG)
Reply #4 - 03/22/08 at 18:39:07
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The 6.Neg5 line might be one of these "refutations" you refer to; it looks pretty strong for White.  The variations below are based on analysis given by Dennis Monokroussos at his blog The Chess Mind.

See: http://chessmind.powerblogs.com/posts/1175389056.shtml

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Neg5

    6.Nxe5 isn't bad for White, but it leads to sharp play where Black is likely to feel at home.

6...h6

Alternatives:
A) 6...e4 7.Ne5 Nh6 8.Nxh7 (8.Nxe4!! Motwani) 8...Ng4

    Or 8...Bb4+ 9.c3 Rxh7 (9...Bxc3+ 10.bxc3 Rxh7) 10.Qh5+ (10.cxb4 West) 10...Kf8 (10...Ke7 Motwani) 11.cxb4± Kg8 12.Bg5 Qf8 13.Ng6 Qxb4+ 14.Bd2 Nf5 (14...Qd6 15.Qxd5+ Qxd5 16.Ne7+ Kf7 17.Nxd5+-) 15.Bxb4 Rxh5 16.g4 Nc6 17.Bc3+-

9.Nxf8 Nxe5 10.dxe5 Kxf8 11.c4 d4 12.Qd2 Bauer


B) 6...exd4 but 7.Nxd4 gives White a very nice edge. 7...Qe7+

    7...Bd6  looks more solid, but I think White can gain a substantial advantage here, too. 8.Nge6 Qf6 (8...Qe7 9.Bb5+! c6 10.0–0! Qf7 11.Re1 Ne7 12.Nf5!! Nxf5 13.Ng5+ Qe7 14.Rxe7+ Bxe7 15.Bd3+-) 9.Qh5+ g6 10.Qxd5 Ne7 11.Bb5+ Nbc6 12.Qe4 Qe5 (12...Bxe6 13.Nxe6 Kd7 14.Nd4 Rae8 15.Be3±) 13.Qxe5 Bxe5 14.Bf4 Bxf4 15.Nxf4± Monokroussos

8.Be2 h6 9.Ngf3 c6 10.0–0 Qf6 11.Re1

    11.c4 looks promising too, trying to rip the position open before Black can finish developing.

11...Bd6 12.Ba6+!

    12.c4! Ne7 13.cxd5 cxd5 (13...0–0 14.dxc6 Nbxc6 15.Bc4+ Kh8 16.Ne6±) 14.Bb5+ Kf8 15.Bd2 Nbc6 16.Bc3 Qf7± Monokroussos

12...Kf8 (12...Ne7 13.Bxb7 Bxb7 14.Re6±; 12...Kd8 13.Ne6++-) 13.Bd3 Ne7 14.c4± Monokroussos


7.Nf7!! (Motwani’s idea) 7…Kxf7 8.Nxe5+ Ke6

Alternatives:
A) 8...Kf6 9.Qh5 Be6 10.g4 g5 11.Bxg5+ hxg5 12.Qxh8+ Ke7

    Or 12...Bg7 13.Qh7 and now:

    a) 13...Qe8 14.h4 Bh6 (14...Bxg4 15.hxg5+ Ke7 16.Qxg7+) 15.hxg5+ Bxg5 16.Qh8+ Ke7 17.Qg7+ Kd8 18.Qxg5+ Kc8+-

    b) 13...Qf8 14.f4

    c) 13...Ne7 14.h4+-

    d) 13...Bh6 14.f4 gxf4 15.h4+-

13.h4 gxh4 14.Qh7+ Kd6 15.Qg6 (15.f4 Nc6 16.Nxc6 Kxc6; 15.Rxh4 Nc6 16.Nxc6 Kxc6) 15...Qf6 16.Qxf6 Nxf6+- Motwani


B) 8...Ke7 9.Ng6+ Kf6 10.Qf3+ Bf5 11.g4 Qe8+ 12.Ne5 Ne7 13.Be3 Qa4 14.gxf5+- Monokroussos


C) 8...Ke8 9.Qh5+

9.Qg4+ Ke7 10.Ng6+ Ke8 11.Qe2+ Ne7 12.Nxh8 The h8-knight will escape, despite all of Black's efforts to prevent it. -Bauer

12...Bf5 13.g4 Be4 14.f3 Bh7 15.g5 hxg5 16.Bh3 Nbc6 17.c3 Qd6 18.Qe6 Qxe6+ 19.Bxe6 Nd8 20.Bg4 g6 21.h4 Bg7 22.hxg5 Bg8 23.Bf4 c5 24.dxc5 d4 25.cxd4 Bxd4 26.0–0–0 Bxc5 27.Rhe1 Kf8 28.Bd6+- Bauer
  

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Re: Philidor Counter Gambit (PCG)
Reply #3 - 03/22/08 at 17:19:40
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Hi all, I'm just getting interested in this line. I believe it was mentioned in an old book, Play Better Chess by Barden that I remember from when I was just getting into the game. With my hat tipped to Jim West, Dennis Monokroussos, Jonathan Mestel and breizatao, I'm sure I've seen in more than one place that Larsen claimed there were at least four refutations. Would anyone like to venture one for us to discuss ?
  
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Re: Philidor Counter Gambit (PCG)
Reply #2 - 02/28/08 at 17:38:35
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OstapBender wrote on 02/28/08 at 15:10:38:
Looks like you have a really nice blog there with quite a bit in the way of analysis and annotated games.  I also noticed that Jim West has a link to your blog on his page.  

Although I've faced the Philidor Counter-Gambit a few times with the white pieces, I have yet to give it a try with Black.  Like the King's Gambit (which I also face but don't play) I've always found it a fun opening to study and think learning it has done a lot to improve my understanding of the Open Game (1.e4 e5) in general.

I look forward to reading through your analyses.


Thanks to you OstapBender for your kindness. I am always very touched to have visitors and very happy with your remarks.  

Regards
Fred Wink
  
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Re: Philidor Counter Gambit (PCG)
Reply #1 - 02/28/08 at 15:10:38
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Looks like you have a really nice blog there with quite a bit in the way of analysis and annotated games.  I also noticed that Jim West has a link to your blog on his page.  

Although I've faced the Philidor Counter-Gambit a few times with the white pieces, I have yet to give it a try with Black.  Like the King's Gambit (which I also face but don't play) I've always found it a fun opening to study and think learning it has done a lot to improve my understanding of the Open Game (1.e4 e5) in general.

I look forward to reading through your analyses.
  

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Philidor Counter Gambit (PCG)
02/28/08 at 13:17:40
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I make a little publicity for my blog (if mister Kosten agrees) on the Philidor counter gambit:  http://contregambitphilidor.blogspot.com/

The PCG must have gone out of oblivion!  Cheesy
  
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