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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Memorize Master's Games? (Read 13595 times)
swingdoc
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Re: Memorize Master's Games?
Reply #30 - 06/25/08 at 04:57:05
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Very interesting discussion here. Unfortunately it seems to be primarily theoretical as nobody seems to have much experience with intentionally memorizing a number of master games as a training tool. So, I'll gladly be the guinea pig and see how this works. BTW, AJ Goldby is the author of the site where I originally read this, so thank you to whoever pointed that out earlier. I've started by (re-) memorizing the opera house game. I know, only 17 moves. Too easy, right? This was actually a pretty ideal game as it demonstrates the problem with 3. ... Bg4 in the Phillidor and also highlights the balance between time, development, quality of position and material. I've read through a couple different annotations of the game so I feel like I understand it reasonably well.

So here's my plan. And I'm open and eager for any suggestions you all might have. I'm going to choose 25 games total to memorize and I'd really like to pick games that are models for specific openings, demonstrating typical plans or middle game motifs for each opening. I'm not too picky and play definitely doesn't have to be perfect for both sides. So here are the lines that I'd love to hear any recommendations for model games:

The White Side of:
1. CK advance or fantasy variation, especially the fantasy
2. French classical with 4. e5, f4, Nf3
3. Alekhine exchange variation (developing queenside pieces first, Be3, Nc3, Rc1)
4. Qxd5 scandinavian (Nf3, d4, c4 plan for white)

The Black Side of:
1. Sicilian closed, alapin with Nf6, grand prix attack
2. KID c6 and a6 vs saemisch, Na6 classical, averbakh

Anybody have any games that they love and especially that are educational?
  
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Willempie
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Re: Memorize Master's Games?
Reply #29 - 06/24/08 at 13:40:05
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Matemax wrote on 06/24/08 at 13:10:57:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 06/24/08 at 11:12:26:
If it's any help, I haven't memorised any master games! On the other hand, I like to think that I would understand them! Wink

Hopefully you have memorized some of your own (master) games  Shocked

I am very sure Tony can reproduce his spectecualr game against Speelman  Grin
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1276741

J/k of course Wink
  

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Matemax
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Re: Memorize Master's Games?
Reply #28 - 06/24/08 at 13:10:57
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 06/24/08 at 11:12:26:
If it's any help, I haven't memorised any master games! On the other hand, I like to think that I would understand them! Wink

Hopefully you have memorized some of your own (master) games  Shocked
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Memorize Master's Games?
Reply #27 - 06/24/08 at 11:12:26
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If it's any help, I haven't memorised any master games! On the other hand, I like to think that I would understand them! Wink
  
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Stigma
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Re: Memorize Master's Games?
Reply #26 - 06/23/08 at 21:59:41
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Just reading through this thread has made me realize how many potentially fruitful training techniques I have yet to try, especially focused on memory. As a player who has been stuck on the same level for 5 years now, this gives me hope. I've also woken up to the idea that my optimal learning style may be more linked to kinetics and "action" than I have assumed. The chess books that have given me the most are those I have sat down with and played through all the moves on a physical board, while trying to understand. But this preference may actually be a liability in the computer age...

@trw
The technique you mention of using music to create a kind of situation-specific learning is very interesting, and I have yet to try it out properly. Thanks for reminding me of it!

@dsanchez
The idea of creating a narrative out of every game appeals to me, I will certainly try it. I think one of my favorite opening books of all time, Pirc Alert, did this to some extent (with a lot of odd, creative names for various strategies that made them stick in memory).

@GabrielGale
Lots of interesting points. I think the rote learning you mention suits itself to the kind of flashcard/repetition system that is developed in the program "Chess Position Trainer". I have been meaning to make use of this both for opening and endgame theory for a while, but actually preparing the files with exactly the information I want to memorize is such a drag...

@Jo
I have some books on mnemonics and have often wondered about how they could be useful in chess. But mnenomics give an artificial structure to a mass of information that appears overwhelming and/or unstructured (like decimal places of pi), while I'm not sure chess fits this description.

Chess moves, plans and games ARE already meaningful and structured by virtue of the link to both visualization/calculation and narrative. I find it hard to escape the conclusion that the most effective memory system for chess must make extensive use of this already available structure. Then what place is left for mnemonics? I'm not ruling it out here, in fact I secretely hope mnemonics can still be of some use!
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Memorize Master's Games?
Reply #25 - 06/23/08 at 20:25:58
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Hello chess people,

Im not sure how this can help but Ive put together a free site that helps with mnemonics and memory. Let me know by using the contact sheet if it does - Id be very interested and pleased- pelase spread the word if it could be useful- the things you guys talk of reminds me of learning pi to x decimal places which is easily possible using mnemonic techniques (see video on site) ... JogLab.com
  
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Re: Memorize Master's Games?
Reply #24 - 06/23/08 at 17:40:54
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Matemax wrote on 06/22/08 at 15:03:51:
Just a thought...

Does "memorizing" include "understanding" as well, or is it just knowing the moves?

In the Go model, it is specifically just knowing the moves.  Understanding is supposed to come subconsciously.
  
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Re: Memorize Master's Games?
Reply #23 - 06/23/08 at 15:44:27
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Hello:

This is all very interesting. I thought one recommendation was to go through 1000s of games and learn by osmosis? But this thread is talking about spending 30+ minutes per game. Then you cannot go through 1000s of games.

I am interested in giving this a try though as I am cannot really remember games well.

trw, can you tell us how you spend the 30+ mins on a game (set up on board? Solitaire style? Lots of calculations of variations)??????

Thanks for any tips,

Gerry
trw wrote on 06/22/08 at 17:16:03:
Stigma wrote on 06/22/08 at 10:08:55:
I very rarely spend several hours studying a single game, but maybe I would remember them better if I did... Do you feel it is worth the time investment? Actually I do remember games I have "studied" for several hours, namely those I have played myself! But after a month or so I start forgetting even those.


Yes it has been worth it for me. I have heard some masters save anything 'below' 30 minutes is a waste of time and i've heard others say anything below an hour. I say you need to understand how you learn to decide how much time each game should really take (obviously there are other dependent factors such as length of the game..)


I think the goal is understanding but I am not arrogant enough to think I see every subtly in my studies and thus I'd say the end result is definitely more memory than sadly understanding though certainly I have learned many things from the game just not 'all.'

  
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Re: Memorize Master's Games?
Reply #22 - 06/23/08 at 10:15:13
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Eight years ago I played Kramnik two days after he won the world championship from Kasparov (it was a stunt for the paper I work for). We played quickly without a clock and he wouldn't let me record the moves. I won a pawn in the late opening/early middlegame but got outplayed, especially in the endgame, and lost. He then started to write the moves down for me (without using a board) but got lost in the middlegame although he was able to reconstruct a position later in the game and write the concluding moves.
My point is that here was the world champion who couldn't remember the moves of a game he had completed just seconds before.
I can't prove this, but I suspect the section he couldn't remember was down to it becoming random through me playing some very illogical moves.
  
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Re: Memorize Master's Games?
Reply #21 - 06/23/08 at 08:17:28
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JEH,

I like that!

I was looking through a combinations book today and recognised several classic positions.  I don't remember all the moves to Euwe-Keres, but I do remember ...c6!!

There's another thing about memory that isn't discussed much among chess players.  Sometimes it takes quite a bit of work to remember the right way to play something.  For instance, I had the opportunity to play as Korchnoi did against Tatai in an exchange French today, but forgot about that game (and one I had won previously using the same system) until just after I had made the move. 

Memory is such a complex beast.
  
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Re: Memorize Master's Games?
Reply #20 - 06/23/08 at 06:44:27
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Top GM to Top GM...

"How many games have you got in your database?"
"Thirty thousand"
"Thirty thousand? I've got over 5 million in mine, how can you work with thirty thousand?"
"Err, well that's all I can remember"

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Memorize Master's Games?
Reply #19 - 06/23/08 at 03:11:05
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GabrielGale wrote on 06/22/08 at 23:22:23:
Lastly (in another long post Smiley): Anand (according to commentators!) recently failed to remember corredtly a transposition and lost a game to Ivanchuk(?). Re remembering old master games, I think there was also a recent example where the GMs were replaying a game from the 1960s without realising it.


http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1493939&kpage=1#reply20
Ivanchuk vs Anand.

Karpov did the same thing in
LarryC vs Karpov
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1069116

  
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Re: Memorize Master's Games?
Reply #18 - 06/23/08 at 03:02:25
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I am jealous. I hardly can memorize phonenumbers and birthdates and always forget where I have left my keys/glasses unless they are on permanent/fixed (what is the correct word here?) place. Twenty years ago I had no problems reproducing my own games, but now I forget them within a few minutes after their conclusion.
At the other hand I am pretty good at memorizing algorhythms. That's very handy when teaching maths and physics. But 100 chessgames? No way.
  

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Re: Memorize Master's Games?
Reply #17 - 06/22/08 at 23:22:23
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Fascinating subject.
Smyslov_Fan — Yes, memory and chess is very interesting and something I am having to do lots of thinking on, from an academic pedagogical perspective. This comes from trying to find ways to best teach/improve my 8 y o son's chess games. Off-topic but the ideas of Richard James (UK) at http://www.chesskids.com/art04.shtml are very interesting (ie on children, chess and understanding). And thanks for the references.

Stigma — I think you are right. I wasn't sure and therefore didn't post it but I think the game is Dvoretsky vs Timoshenko (1966?) USSR Ch. And of course memory works also with understanding and existing knowledge (it is a loop!) see below.

trw and matemax — I think memorisation is of at least two types (maybe more according to Smyslov_Fan's post and the people mentioned. 1) rote memory of very basic 1st order stuff/facts. Eg the times table or in chess, the initial moves of chess openings. ( Sad I am afraid this is one area where my memory really fails me since I have trouble even remembering the Phillidor after reading about it. I have to sometimes rely on my son's memory!! Sad )
2) memory by understanding. Here I think there are various ways to achieve memorisation. Some people are visual, some are eidetic, and/or some are "doers" (ie remember by physical action, eg playing in actual games).
A) I also think losing or winning games can assist in memory. Losing helps to put a "narrative" and this assists in associative memory. Similarly winnig after a protracted struggle etc.
B) Memory by doing is obviously crucial in blitz games where your mind is sort of on automatic. (This maybe akin to Michel Polanyi's tacit memory (whose ideas have abeen adopted (corrupted?) by all those knowledge management people).

There is of course the Susan Polgar's "thesis" that she has memorised at least 10,000(?) positions if not more which assists her in her games. (This is where the topic segues into my interest in children and chess. Do children below 11-12 learn by brute memory and mimicry with only a very rudimentary logical analytical thinking? Of course children who are "gifted" are a special case or more like on an extreme end of a spectrum where they may have been "blessed" with advanced logical analytical thinking ability a la Carlsen et al.)

Lastly (in another long post Smiley): Anand (according to commentators!) recently failed to remember corredtly a transposition and lost a game to Ivanchuk(?). Re remembering old master games, I think there was also a recent example where the GMs were replaying a game from the 1960s without realising it.

Having said that, I noticed that the recent "junior" GMs/WGMs are not really studying master games from the 40s-60s. An example is Hou Yi-fan — check out the interview on Chesslife (USCF website) in a report by IGM Rogers.
  

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Re: Memorize Master's Games?
Reply #16 - 06/22/08 at 17:16:03
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Stigma wrote on 06/22/08 at 10:08:55:
I very rarely spend several hours studying a single game, but maybe I would remember them better if I did... Do you feel it is worth the time investment? Actually I do remember games I have "studied" for several hours, namely those I have played myself! But after a month or so I start forgetting even those.


Yes it has been worth it for me. I have heard some masters save anything 'below' 30 minutes is a waste of time and i've heard others say anything below an hour. I say you need to understand how you learn to decide how much time each game should really take (obviously there are other dependent factors such as length of the game..)


I think the goal is understanding but I am not arrogant enough to think I see every subtly in my studies and thus I'd say the end result is definitely more memory than sadly understanding though certainly I have learned many things from the game just not 'all.'
  
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