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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary (Read 86459 times)
flaviddude
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Re: articles on Chess Cafe
Reply #20 - 07/31/08 at 11:45:15
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Stefan Bucker has posted an article on the main line of the Kieseritzy on Chess Cafe. An expanded version of this article will appear in the next issue of Kaissiber. In my opinion this patches up a line of the King's Gambit where white was struggling.

I have played the King's Gambit from both sides for many years both over the board and in correspondence. I am currently happy playing against every line from black. Black can equalize in some lines if he is very careful. However many of these positions are even but not drawish. Some of the positions that arise are very difficult and quite different to other openings.      
  

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #19 - 07/30/08 at 15:56:36
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Yes, thanks for alerting me to that- so the Allgaier proper doesn't look to be in the best shape then. 
In the 7 Bc4+ line, the 9 Bxb7 Bxb7 10 Qxg4+ Kf7 11 Qh5+ Ke7 12 Qe5+ Kd7 is paradoxical in that it's White who ends up temporarily ahead on material but facing a winning attack.  There is the deviation 12 Qb5 Qc8 13 0-0 Bg7 14 Rxf4 but it's highly unlikely that White has enough compensation for two pieces here.  In your main line Fritz also suggests 15 Rf1, but that loses as well.

Black certainly appears to be better in all lines following 7 d4 f3 8 Bc4+ and the main alternative 8 Be3, and also following 7 Nc3 d5 (7...Nf6 might also be good, but as you say, it's not very relevant as 7...d5 is safely better for Black)

However it looks like the Hamppe-Allgaier is in much better shape from the latest analysis.
  
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #18 - 07/30/08 at 01:40:55
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Here we go again, this time bashing the Allgaier.

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ng5 h6 6.Nxf7 Kxf7
-7.Nc3 d5 8 d4 f3 9 Nxd5 Nf6 10 Nxf6 Qxf6 11 gxf3 Qxf3 12 Bc4+ and I think Ke8 is more than =+, eg 13.Qxf3 gxf3 14.Kf2 Bg4 15.h5 Nc6 16.c3 Na5 17.Bd3 c5.
-According to an analysis from Chabelsky 7.Bc4+ d5 8.Bxd5+
a)8...Ke8 9.d4 (but then why not 7.d4 immediately?) Nf6 10.Nc3 Nh5 11.0-0 c6 12.Bb3 Bg7 3.e5 Tf8 14.Ne4 Qxh4+ 15.Nd6+ Kd7 and Black has the extra piece plus the winning attack ...
b)8...Kg7 9.Bxb7 Bxb7 10.Qxg4+ Kf7 11.Qh5+ Ke7 12.Qe5+ and 100 years ago one knew better than current sicilon power: Kd7 13.Qxh8 (13.Qf5+ Kc6 14.Rh3 a5! and the black king escapes) Nf6 14.e5 Bxg2 (Fritz6 thinks White is better, but we should rather rely on the old masters) 15.Rg1 (15.Rh2 f3 16.Qxf6 Qxf6 17.exf6 Bc5, Gunsberg in 1895; Fritz6 gives 18.d4 Bxd4 19.Nd2 Nc6 20.f7 Ne5 but has changed its evaluation drastically) f3 16.Qxf6 Qxf6 17.exf6 Bc5 (Lewenfisj 1910). All this shows that Eric Schiller's books sometimes are useful; it's to be found in his "Who is afraid of the KG". Heartwarming that these old masters understood stuff like this better than 21st century computers.
-So I tried to revive 7.d4, similar to the HAG.
a)7.d4 f3 (this thematic move is probably even stronger than d5 8.Bxf4 Nf6 9.Nc3 Nxe4 or Be6) 8.Bc4+ d5 9.Bxd5+
a1)9...Ke8 10.gxf3 Nf6 11.Bb3 gxf3 12.Be3 Nc6 and I doubt White's compensation.
a2)9...Kg7 10.gxf3 Nf6 11.Nc3 Bb4 12.Bc4 c5! -+Le Goff-Bauget, corr 1993 is an improvement on the old 12...gxf3.

Sidenote, possibly not very relevant: C2 (see previous page). After 7...Nf6, Harding's main line is 8 d4 d5 9 Bxf4 Bb4 10 Bd3 and now Bxc3+ 11.bxc3 dxe4 12 Bc4+ Be6 and in no single line Fritz will drop his evaluation, as far as I can see
  

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MNb
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #17 - 07/30/08 at 00:24:26
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SWJediknight wrote on 07/29/08 at 17:04:07:
1.  After 8 d4 Bb4 I reckon White can try 9 Bc4+ d5 10 Bxd5+ Kg7 11 Bxf4, unclear, as Bb4 isn't usually one of Black's best moves in the dodgy 8 Bc4+ line.


After 11...Nge7 (iso Nf6) I doubt White's compensation; also after 10...Ke8 (iso 10...Nge7) 11.Bxf4 Nge7, but I never cared to look further as 9.Bxf4 Nf6 10.Bd3 looked good enough for me. I refer to Claridge-Burkett, IECG 1999.
But you might be right, activating both white bishops this way feels right.

SWJediknight wrote on 07/29/08 at 17:04:07:
2.  Having another run-through of 8 d4 d5 9 Bxf4 Nf6, I'm not sure that that stretch of the article is among Harding's best, as he glosses over Glazkov's 10 Bb5+ Bxc3+ 11 bxc3 Nf6 12 0-0 Kg7, when 13 exd5 is fine for White, and Rodricht's 14 Bxg4 in the 10 Be2 line, which also looks OK (though I feel Black has improvements in the 13...dxe4 line, I don't trust 10 Be2 and 13 c4 at all).

As well as 10 Bb5 which is about equal, 10 Bd3 is also better IMO than 10 Be2.  So maybe even that line may be playable for White.

Neither do I trust 10.Be2, but mainly because of the answer dxe4 and now what? For the same reason I dismiss 10.Bd3. One example is Bennett-Mulenko, IECG 2000. White has an independent option though: 10.Nxd5 looks attractive to me. Down-Furmston, corr BPCF 1993 went very well for White; the other important game Pillsbury-Winkler, Wien 1902 needs to be scrutinized. Of course there is still 9.Nxd5 as well, which imo is White's best.
This was the reason to look for transpositional tricks (9...Nf6 or 9...Bb4) for Black. So if you're right about 8.d4 Bb4 9.Bc4+ it looks like the Hamppe-Allgaier is in quite fine shape. Moreover 8.d4 Bb4 9.Bxf4 Nf6 (d5 10.Bd3 Jansen-Fiorito, corr NBC 1996 or d6?! 10.Bc4+) 10.Bd3 d5 11.0-0 is Claridge-Burkett, IECG 1999 again. Nice!

Stuff about the Allgaier proper to follow soon.
  

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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #16 - 07/29/08 at 17:04:07
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On the topic of how to answer 2 f4 exf4 3 Nf3, I'm not convinced that Black is better with best play after 3...g5.  Black can certainly equalise, but it's difficult to prove more than that.  The Hanstein Gambit, while unpromising for White, probably equalises, while in the Kieseritzky, see Stefan Bucker's analysis of 4 h4 g4 5 Ne5 d6 Nxg4 Nf6, and 5...Nf6 6 Bc4! (rather than the more ambitious, but insufficient, 6 d4 d6) d5 7 exd5.
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss34.pdf
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss35.pdf

Also, I wonder if Fritz's 7 Bc4+ d5 8 Bxd5+ Kg7 9 Bxb7 mentioned above is wholly sound in the Allgaier; if it is, even the Allgaier may be good enough for equality.

As Black (I sometimes meet 1 e4 with 1...e5) I quite like the Cunningham in response to the KG, and I also like the "nameless 3...Nc6 defence" followed by 4...g5- it prevents the Kieseritzky and in my experience often confuses White players who are expecting 3...g5.

MNb wrote on 07/29/08 at 01:57:37:
...

8.d4 Bb4 9.Bxf4 Nf6 and now both 10.Bd3 and 10.Be2 seem to provide compensation. Now one important point is that both are answered with 10...d5, transposing to

8.d4 d5 9.Bxf4 Bb4 10.Bd3/10.Be2 Nf6. So if JediKnight is right, White has a problem after 8...Bb4. In this move order though I think 8...Be6 9.Bd3 Nf6 even better.

...




1.  After 8 d4 Bb4 I reckon White can try 9 Bc4+ d5 10 Bxd5+ Kg7 11 Bxf4, unclear, as Bb4 isn't usually one of Black's best moves in the dodgy 8 Bc4+ line.

2.  Having another run-through of 8 d4 d5 9 Bxf4 Nf6, I'm not sure that that stretch of the article is among Harding's best, as he glosses over Glazkov's 10 Bb5+ Bxc3+ 11 bxc3 Nf6 12 0-0 Kg7, when 13 exd5 is fine for White, and Rodricht's 14 Bxg4 in the 10 Be2 line, which also looks OK (though I feel Black has improvements in the 13...dxe4 line, I don't trust 10 Be2 and 13 c4 at all).

As well as 10 Bb5 which is about equal, 10 Bd3 is also better IMO than 10 Be2.  So maybe even that line may be playable for White.

3.  8 d4 d5 9 Bxf4 Be6 (the immediate 8...Be6 is illegal!) can be met by 10 Be2, undermining the g4 and d5-pawns, while 10 Bd3 isn't too bad either, e.g. 10...Nf6 11 exd5 Nxd5 12 0-0.
  
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #15 - 07/29/08 at 13:51:00
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OK.  Thanks / Anders
  
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #14 - 07/29/08 at 13:48:02
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Anders wrote on 07/29/08 at 13:13:52:
Markovich wrote on 07/29/08 at 11:58:38:
I apologize that it's not in the spirit of this thread, but personally I would never consider 3...g5.  I understand that Black is better, but there are much simpler defenses that utterly frustrate White's quest for (a) the advantage and (b) the thrill of playing his heavily prepared, antique system ca. 1865.


Hi.
Could you please update on which defences you think about? 

(Sorry if there is an old thread with info around this.  I could not find one when looking).

Cheers / Anders


Well, I usually play the Modern but I certainly would also consider the Cunningham.  For whatever it's worth.
  

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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #13 - 07/29/08 at 13:13:52
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Markovich wrote on 07/29/08 at 11:58:38:
I apologize that it's not in the spirit of this thread, but personally I would never consider 3...g5.  I understand that Black is better, but there are much simpler defenses that utterly frustrate White's quest for (a) the advantage and (b) the thrill of playing his heavily prepared, antique system ca. 1865.


Hi.
Could you please update on which defences you think about?  

(Sorry if there is an old thread with info around this.  I could not find one when looking).

Cheers / Anders
  
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #12 - 07/29/08 at 11:58:38
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I apologize that it's not in the spirit of this thread, but personally I would never consider 3...g5.  I understand that Black is better, but there are much simpler defenses that utterly frustrate White's quest for (a) the advantage and (b) the thrill of playing his heavily prepared, antique system ca. 1865.
  

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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #11 - 07/29/08 at 01:57:37
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Ha, a little debate on the Allgaier. As S_F says, ever chessplayer should have a hobby. Mine is trying to revive irrelevant stuff like this. Wouldn't it be nice if the Allgaier was player after all? My attempt started after reading those two Harding articles; as always I lost my interest somewhere halfway. But it is there again.

First the Viennese version: 7.Nc3 Nc6 and now 8.Bc4+ d5 9.Bxd5+ Kg7 (Ke8 10.d4 Bg7 11.Bxf4 Nxd4 is an option) 10.d4 Qf6!? 11.e5 Nxe5 12.dxe5 Qxe5+ Zjelnin-Tiulin, Cherepovets 1973, 13.Qe2 Bd6 14.Qxe5+ Bxe5 15.o-o f3!? 16.gxf3 Nf6 17.Bb3 g3 =+. Instead 10...f3 leads us to Babula-Votruba, Cihak 1969, which after 40 years is still unclear indeed.

There is another reason why I think the immediate check might be imprecise. After 7.Nc3 Nc6 8.d4 d6 White might prefer 9.Bxf4 Be7 10.g3 limiting Black's options somewhat; 9.Bc4+ Kg7 10.Bxf4 Be7 11.g3 is the similar idea.

After 8.d4 f3 might be good: 9.Bc4+ d5 10.Bxd5+ Kg7 11.gxf3 Bb4 12.Be3 Nf6 13.Bc4 Qe7 14.Qe2 is Gallagher-Hresc, Geneve 1991, where should have played Rd8! In my opinion White may try 14.Qd3, but I am not sure about his compensation.

8.d4 Nf6 9.Bc4+ d5 10.Nxd5 f3 11.gxf3 Be6 12.gxf4 Gallegos-Shipman, San Francisco 2000, Nxe4 13.Qf3 Nf6 14.Rf1 Kg7 15.Nxf6 Bxc4 16.Nh5+ Kh8 17.Nf6+ ½-½.

8.d4 Bb4 9.Bxf4 Nf6 and now both 10.Bd3 and 10.Be2 seem to provide compensation. Now one important point is that both are answered with 10...d5, transposing to

8.d4 d5 9.Bxf4 Bb4 10.Bd3/10.Be2 Nf6. So if JediKnight is right, White has a problem after 8...Bb4. In this move order though I think 9...Be6 10.Bd3 Nf6 even better. I agree on 9.Nxd5 f3 (Nf6 10.Bxf4 indeed) 10.gxf3 Nge7 (according to Konikowski Be6 12.fxg4 favours White) 11.Bxc4 Be6 is Gallego-Shipman above. I agree that White looks fine after 11...Nxd5 12.Bxd5+ Kg7; he may try 13.fxg4 Be7 14.0-0 Genestier-Sireta, corr 1993 or 13.Bxc6 bxc6 14.fxg4 Be7 15.0-0 as well.

My investigations on the Allgaier proper have been limited to 7.d4. As I agree with JediKnight on this I decided to do something else, forgetting about 7.Nc3 and 7.Bc4+. As Ritchie Blackmore once said: Vielleicht das nächste Zeit (German native speakers, please don't react. I know the difference between Zeit and Mal).

Later edit: I have corrected the typo pointed out be JediKnight (see next page).
« Last Edit: 07/30/08 at 00:09:43 by MNb »  

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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #10 - 07/28/08 at 20:40:07
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Here's Harding's articles:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kibitz78.pdf
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kibitz79.pdf

I've checked over Gallagher's NCO line with the assistance of Fritz 10, and think there may be improvements for White over it, but nothing particularly inspiring.  My analysis of the Allgaier from tonight's survey (which probably has many holes) runs:

A.  7 d4 f3 (7...d5!?) 8 Bc4+ d5 9 Bxd5+ Kg7 10 gxf3 Nf6 11 Bc4 (11 Nc3 Bb4 -/+ Gallagher, e.g. 12 Bc4 c5!) 11...c5 12 e5 Nc6 =+.

B.  7 Bc4+ d5 8 Bxd5+ Kg7 (8...Ke7 9 d4 gives White sufficient compensation) 9 Bxb7 is Fritz's suggestion (9 d4 f3! =+, transposes to line A) 9...Bxb7 (9...f3 10 Bxc8 f2+ 11 Kxf2 Qxc8 12 d4 with compensation) 10 Qxg4+ Kh7 (10...Kf7 11 Qh5+ Ke6 12 Qf5+ Kd6 13 d4 with compensation) 11 Qf5+ Kg7 12 Qg4+, with a repetition draw.

C.  7 Nc3

C1.  7...Bb4 8 Bc4+ d5 9 Nxd5 Be6 10 Qe2 with compensation.

C2.  After 7...Nf6, Harding's main line is 8 d4 d5 9 Bxf4 Bb4 10 Bd3 dxe4 11 Bc4+ Kg7 12 0-0 Nc6 13 d5, which is unclear.  This is one of those lines where Fritz initially thinks Black is much better, but push it down its suggested lines, and the evaluation drops substantially.

C3.  7...d5 is the one move that might be better than 7...Nc6.  8 d4 (8 Nxd5 Nf6 9 Nxf4 Qd4 10 d3 Bc5 -/+) 8...f3 9 Nxd5 Nf6 10 Nxf6 Qxf6 11 gxf3 Qxf3 12 Bc4+ Kg7 13 Qxf3 gxf3 =+.

C4.  7...Nc6 and now:

C4a.  8 Bc4+ d5 9 Bxd5+ Kg7 10 d4 Bd6 (10...f3 11 gxf3 Be7 12 Be3 Bxh4+ 13 Kd2 is unclear, 10...Nf6 11 Bxf4 with compensation) 11 Bxc6+ (11 e5 Nxe5 12 dxe5 Bxe5 leaves Black a pawn up and destroys White's centre) 11...bxc6 and I think Black may be slightly better, though the position is still murky.

C4b.  8 d4 d5 (8...f3 is probably best met by 9 Be3 with another unclear position, rather than 9 Bc4+ which tends to transpose to line C4a) 

C4b1.  9 Bxf4 Bb4 is good for Black, but I think White's two move-9 alternatives are worth another look: 
C4b2.  9 exd5 Qe7+ (9...Nce7 10 Bxf4 Ng6 11 Be5 Bg7 12 Qe2 unclear) 10 Kf2 Ne5 =+
C4b3.  9 Nxd5 Nf6 (9...f3 10 gxf3 Nge7 11 Bc4 Nxd5 is considered good for Black according to Harding, but White seems fine to me: 12 Bxd5+ Kg7 13 Be3 with compensation) 10 Bxf4 is extremely messy.

In conclusion, unless I've missed something (which I might well have done), White's best move in the Allgaier seems to be 7 Bc4+ with sufficient compensation, though Black can force a quick draw in that line.  7 Nc3 is best met by 7...d5 with an edge for Black, while the Hampe-Allgaier with 7...Nc6 looks unclear.  It also appears that MNb is right about 8 d4 with the intention of queenside castling, rather than 8 Bc4+, being White's best approach in the Hampe-Allgaier lines.
  
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #9 - 07/28/08 at 16:58:52
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SWJediknight wrote on 07/28/08 at 10:25:03:
Tim Harding wrote an article on the Allgaier a while ago, in which he concluded that 7 Nc3 was the best move, but it was still doubtful as to whether White got enough against accurate defence.  Black's best may be to transpose to the Hamppe-Allgaier with 7...Nc6, when Harding suggests 8 Bc4+ as a largely unexplored possibility.


I always have felt intuitively that both statements are incorrect. After 7.Nc3 should not Black rearrange his kingside first? Both 7...Bb4 and 7...Nf6 strike me as more logical.
In the Hamppe-Allgaier (7.Nc3 Nc6 or 2.Nc3 Nc6) it seems to me that White has to play d2-d4 anyway, while it is not sure yet that c4 is the best square for the bishop. Moreover I think the queen's wing a safer place for the white king than the king's wing. Of course I know that White has won a lot of nice attacking games by castling kingside, but well, I always felt because of inaccurate defence.
Just my 2 SRD.
  

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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #8 - 07/28/08 at 10:25:03
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Tim Harding wrote an article on the Allgaier a while ago, in which he concluded that 7 Nc3 was the best move, but it was still doubtful as to whether White got enough against accurate defence.  Black's best may be to transpose to the Hamppe-Allgaier with 7...Nc6, when Harding suggests 8 Bc4+ as a largely unexplored possibility.

7 d4 and 7 Bc4+ are inaccurate in view of the line given in NCO.
  
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #7 - 07/27/08 at 17:09:30
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A few random thoughts:
I thought in the Allgaier 7 Nc3 was a main alternative

3.. Ne7 seems to have been revived by Mickey Adams and was used also by Sokolov and Seirawan ( I think Spassky mauled him though !)

I see Nigel short won a game with the KG v Karjakin in their recent blitz- I wonder what he had in mind as the choice of the Falkbeer avoided any prep
  
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Re: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #6 - 07/26/08 at 23:27:44
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One last addition: a transposition table for all the first 6 moves or so of the ...g5 systems. No evaluations on here, just move orders. Anything in bold represents the primary move order to achieve individual systems within the ...g5 strategy, italicized lines are transpositions. This is important because much of the future viability of the KG might lie in move orders avoiding unpleasant positions.




I also found these notes, which talk about some of the naming conventions and general strategy ideas:

General Guidelines (Black plays ...g4)
  • The Kieseritzky is probably the most logical continuation
  • Lines with 4 Bc4/d4/Nc3 either:
    • require White to sacrifice a piece
    • allow Black to play …Qh4+
  • lines that prepare …g4 with …d6/Nc6 prohibit Nf3-e5
  • White’s light-squared bishop usually belongs on c4, hitting f7 (though only after …g4 has been played because of 4 Bc4 Bg7!)
General Guidelines (Black sets up with Bg7/d6/h6)
  • If White plays Bc4, it’s a Hanstein Gambit
  • If White plays Bc4 and h4, it’s a subset of the Hanstein called the Philidor Gambit (or Greco-Philidor Attack)
  • If White plays 4 Bc4 Bg7, 5 d4/Nc3 still allows Black the …g4 option
  • If White doesn’t play Bc4
    • and Black plays …h6, it’s a Becker Defense
    • and Black plays …d6, it’s a Fischer Defense
    • and Black plays …Nc6 without …d6, it’s a Pierce Gambit Declined
  • White’s light-squared bishop usually belongs on f1 (guarding h3 in some lines) or b5 (after …Nc6)
  
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