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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary (Read 38783 times)
Dragonslayer
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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #65 - 01/11/16 at 13:35:09
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11...Nb4! is an old idea of Jens Kristiansen. It was tested before in Schreiber-Jensen, corr 2000 and several other corr games.
White should play 12.Qf3! to draw. See e.g. Sakaev's book on 1...e5.
After 12.Nxc7+? (which was thought to draw) a strong (and winning) novelty for Black at move 15 was given here in the Forum by PANFR in 2014. A reasonable engine will also suggest it.
  
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Knightcut
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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #64 - 01/05/16 at 10:27:05
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Looking for interesting lines in the KG I noted the attached game and was quite amazed about Blacks 11...Nb4! It hangs the knight en prise, yet Black won after 12.Nxb4 and the computer assessment points at good play for Black after this sacrifice. However, I am in doubt if White with best play can actually force a Draw after 12.Nxc2+, i.e: 12...Kd8 13.Nxa8 Qe3+ 14.Kc3 Qc5 15.Kd2 Bg7 16.Be2! Rg8 17.c3 Bxc3 18.bxc3 Qe3+ 19.Ke1 Qg3 20.Kd2 etc. with perpetual check.
Any ideas how Black can avoid this and stay in the game with reasonable play?
  
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barrera
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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #63 - 01/06/13 at 15:52:41
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@micawber

re "11......Qf6! 12.Nd5, Qg6 -/+
(Salmensuu-Nysti, Helsinki,2004)"

Can u tell me where to find this game, please. Kiss
  
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PatzerNoster
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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #62 - 09/11/11 at 11:03:54
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Dear Dragonslayer,

thank you for your honest and enlightning answer!

After some analysis (and with the help of your ideas), I found some attractive possibilities for white:

After 18. ... Kd7 19.Bb5! (19.c3 followed by Bc4 is interesting, but black can activate the rook by Rae8, but 19.Bc4 fails to Nfd4: protecting e6) a6 20.Ne6 Qg6 21.Bd3! (the bishop retreats and pins the knight) Rae8 22.Qf4 Nce7 23.d5! and now the white queen can switch back to the queenside with an attack.

If instead 20. ... Qh6 the queen feels uncomfortable there: 21.Bc6:+ bc6: 22.Qa5 Rac8 23.h3!! (the knight on f5 was immune due to Qd2+ with mate, but white works to diffuse the threat). And the black pawn structure falls apart while white keeps the initiative.

I think your opponent was quite right to be afraid of 16. ... Kd7 17.Bc4 when Be6+ forces Kd8 anyway and white can open the kingside by h3 with a vicious attack!
  
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Dragonslayer
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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #61 - 09/09/11 at 13:22:01
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PatzerNoster wrote on 09/06/11 at 18:12:07:
I'm sorry, I didn't want to let the thread die, just was on vacation so I couldn't respond.

@Dragonslayer: the "upset" was not meant in a patronizing way, rather that you beat a player with a higher rating who is on his way to become a GM quite soon in my opinion!  Wink

Anyway, concerning the real content of the game I'm not sure if 13.Bh6 is actually superior to 13.Bf4, after all the Bg7 is not such a great piece and white "loses" the right to castle (that might not be important in the position). On the other hand the black king will definitely stay in the centre, but that might also be the case with 13.Bf4, as castling kingside looks extremely risky.

After 18. ... Qh6? the game seems to be over, what did you plan after the superior 18. ... Kd7 or 18. ... Kc8 ?
My computer gives equality after both moves, but Kd7 to bring the a-rook to e8 seems more natural to me.


No offence taken. I didn't take it in a patronizing way. That's why I put the smiley after "upset". Before the game people were joking about me wasting a White on a sure loss (I lost to him with White in last year's tournament).

I was expecting the French, when he played 1...e5. After this I would consider it an almost even match, given that he apparently was unprepared and has only recently taken up 1...e5.
The computer prefers 13.Bf4 and gives Black a healthy advantage after 14...Qe7+. But as so often in gambit openings if you follow the computer's best move suggestion for a while it ends up with 0.00 after 18.Nf4. One certainly wouldn't expect the game to be over in 5 moves.
Yes, 18...Qh6? loses on the spot. I had also seen 18...Nxd4? 19.c3 winning, and had expected 18...Kc8. Then Black plays with a rook less. The computer is notoriously unrealiable in such situations. It justifies its 0.00 eval with the line 19.Ne6 Qh6 20.Qxh6 Nxh6 21.h3 Kd7 22.Bb5 a6 23.Bxc6+ Kxc6 24.hxg4 Nxg4+ 25.Kxf3 and White wins one of the Black pawns with an even game. I had seen nothing of this and saw no reason to go to e6 and allow the queen exchange. Of course, I saw that 19.Bd3 now allows ...Nxd4 and c3 can be answered by Ne2 since there is no fork on e6. So I simply planned 19.c3 followed by 20.Bd3. Black has no counterplay and must fear the endgame if White captures the pawn on g4 when f3 also falls. Another option is h2-h3 and f3 also falls. White will always have the better structure compensating the second pawn. This is standard fare in the KG, even if the momentary two-pawn deficit is a complete deterrent to most players.
Regarding 18...Kd7 my opponent has earlier chosen Kd8 over Kd7 fearing Bc4 in response, so psychologically it is difficult to readjust. Time was short and my plan was simply to recheck if Bc4 was any good and otherwise play 19.Bb5 with various threats (the primitive d4-d5, and the deeper Ne6+Qa5) and clearing the way for Qd3. Maybe Black can parry these threats, I don't know.
Regarding the dreaded 0.00 I am not concerned. Not because a draw would still be an upset but because, I am playinga real person and not Rybka/Fritz/Houdini. Also I dislike annotating by result and adlibbing computer analysis. Yes, the position was even, but the pressure is clearly on Black.
  
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GabrielGale
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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #60 - 09/07/11 at 01:06:44
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Slightly off-topic but too lazy to locate the correct thread ......
Just read fellow ChessPubber Sverre Johnsen's blog (reactivated after some period of dormancy) that he is writing a manuscript on the KG (see http://sverreschesscorner.blogspot.com/2011/09/brief-return-to-chess-blogging.ht...)

I wonder if he can provide more info ......
  

http://www.toutautre.blogspot.com/
A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #59 - 09/06/11 at 18:12:07
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I'm sorry, I didn't want to let the thread die, just was on vacation so I couldn't respond.

@Dragonslayer: the "upset" was not meant in a patronizing way, rather that you beat a player with a higher rating who is on his way to become a GM quite soon in my opinion!  Wink

Anyway, concerning the real content of the game I'm not sure if 13.Bh6 is actually superior to 13.Bf4, after all the Bg7 is not such a great piece and white "loses" the right to castle (that might not be important in the position). On the other hand the black king will definitely stay in the centre, but that might also be the case with 13.Bf4, as castling kingside looks extremely risky.

After 18. ... Qh6? the game seems to be over, what did you plan after the superior 18. ... Kd7 or 18. ... Kc8 ?
My computer gives equality after both moves, but Kd7 to bring the a-rook to e8 seems more natural to me.
  
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MNb
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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #58 - 09/01/11 at 21:23:10
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OK.
Congrats with a fine game.
  

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Dragonslayer
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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #57 - 09/01/11 at 13:14:01
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PatzerNoster wrote on 08/25/11 at 14:11:53:
@Dragonslayer:
Congrats for the nice game against German prodigy Rasmus Svane, a nice upset and proof how dangerous the KG is in practice.
If I'm not mistaken the game followed some analysis from the ChessPub forum here for a while.  Wink


An "upset"??  Wink
Yes the game followed a suggestion from John Emms' 1.e4 e5 book where 10.Nf5 is mentioned, I think. Before that there was something similar (...Bf6) in Graham Burgess' 101 Ches Opening Surprises.
The analysis here on chesspub by Craig Evans ended with 10.Nf5 Bxf5 11.exf5 Ne7 12.Bg5! f6 13.Bf4 and compensation. I actually had a long think before 12.Bg5 because:
a) I wasn't sure it was the best move and could not remember the home analysis in detail.
b) I wanted to make sure that my 13.Bh6 was better than 13.Bf4 before I went for the whole line.

10.Nf5 is the first new move in a game, but I guess 13.Bh6 is the real novelty.

P.S. Would be nice if I didn't get the last post in a KG thread once again...
  
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Dragonslayer
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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #56 - 08/27/11 at 13:46:59
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Ok, here are some of my findings after 3...g5 4.Nc3 Bg7
5.g3!? is interesting and the only way to avoid the piece sacrifices. It is neither better nor worse than the other lines, just different. I am not so worried about 5...g4 6.Nh4 d5.

5.d4 g4 6.Ne5 Bxe5! is bad for White.
5.d4 g4 6.Bc4 gxf3 7.Qxf3 is likely to transpose to the Rosentreter when White later plays Bxf4 (as observed by MNb) or the Pierce if Black plays ...Nc6. But Qxf4 is not out of the question in all lines.

After 5.d4 g4 6.Bxf4 gxf3 7.Qxf3 d6 8.Bc4 Be6 both 9.d5 and 9.Bxe6 are reasonable. But 8.0-0-0 is also interesting.

After 7...Nc6 8.Bc4 with transposition to the Pierce gambit is not forced. There are at least two other options that can be investigated.
Nocci-Ryan is a draw after 8...d6! (Line C) 9.Bxf7+. White has one better try for an advantage at move 9.

8...Nxd4? (line B) is a mistake and White is winning after 9.Bxf7+ Furhoff-Kallgren is an improvement over Motzko-Marco at move 12.
  
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PatzerNoster
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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #55 - 08/25/11 at 14:11:53
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@Dragonslayer:
Congrats for the nice game against German prodigy Rasmus Svane, a nice upset and proof how dangerous the KG is in practice.
If I'm not mistaken the game followed some analysis from the ChessPub forum here for a while.  Wink

Back to 5. ... g4,
I guess the critical lines are:

6.Bf4: gf3: 7.Qf3:

A) 7. ... d6 8.Bc4 Be6! 9.d5!? and trying to break with e5.

B) 7. ... Nc6 8.Bc4 Nd4:
C) 7. ... Nc6 8.Bc4 d6

against B and C white can sacrifice on f7, I don't remember exactly (no board or ChessBase here), but I think one is won for white and one is drawn, guess Nd4: draws because of some interposition with Nf5 later...
Perhaps 0-0-0 instead of Bc4 also comes into consideration?!

Edit: it's the other way round, line C draws while line B loses...
« Last Edit: 08/25/11 at 16:55:12 by PatzerNoster »  
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MNb
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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #54 - 08/24/11 at 16:41:38
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In fact also the McDonnell Gambit might just transpose:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.d4 g4 6.Bc4 gxf3 7.Qxf3 d6/Nc6 and has White better than 8.Bxf4 ? This is what actually happened in that Motzko-Marco game. So it seems just to be a pseudochoice.
  

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Dragonslayer
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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #53 - 08/24/11 at 14:54:17
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PatzerNoster wrote on 08/22/11 at 15:19:05:
So you mean that the best white can do is transpose to the Rosentreter gambit, a gambit where he seems to have a draw at most?!
Or is the move Bg7 detrimental for black?
As I said, I can't find material about Bg7 in that position, except the one Furhoff game, which doesn't seem to have great theoretical importance.
@MNb: nice game, but unfortunately Qe7 by black seems weak (as you state indirectly).

What do the other experts Dragonslayer, TalJechin think about this?


Check out Jensen-Svane, Politiken Cup, round 4 Denmark 2011.
After 5...g4 White can choose between the Rosentreter with 6.Bxf4 or the McDonnell with 6.Bc4. Yes, ...Bg7 is sometimes a liability (White has Qg3 forking c7 and g7 but only if White has castled so Black cannot reply ...Bf6 threatening ...Bh4, as was missed in at least one KG book)
White has at least a draw in this line and I think it is better for White than the regular Rosentreter which is indeed a draw. (Cannot be more specific right now)
As for 4...Bg7 5.d4 g4 6.Ne5 I would be worried about 6...Bxe5.
  
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MNb
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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #52 - 08/22/11 at 19:23:28
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PatzerNoster wrote on 08/22/11 at 18:38:15:
C) 4. ... Bg7 5.g3 g4 6.Nh4 d5!?

If you have faith in White's chance, by all means try it. Who knows? I am not convinced after 7.Nxd5 f3, but there is no reason to trust my judgment more than your own.
You might also take a look at 5.d4 g4 6.Ne5 Qh4+ 7.g3 fxg3 8.Qxg4 Qxg4 9.Nxg4 Nc6 10.Bf4.

After 6.Bxf4 gxf3 7.Qxf3 Nc6 8.Bc4 there are two more games:

Motzko-Marco, Cesky Tesin sim 1906
Polasek-Cernousek, CZEchT 2007.
  

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Re: C30-C39: ChessPub King's Gambit Analysis Summary
Reply #51 - 08/22/11 at 18:38:15
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To be honest I would rather avoid the Rosentreter, as I have the feeling that white is fighting for equality (of that type he is down a piece for one or two pawns and tries to find a chance to effect some perpetual, as normally the attack might not suffice for more). Of course I may be wrong as I don't have much experience in these types of positions, but that's just what my feeling tells me.

Nevertheless I would love to be converted, as I like white's play in the other lines (objectively about equal but dangerous in practise), so perhaps there is a reason nobody plays g4 at that stage?!

On the other hand the attempt with g3 might be interesting.
I think that 1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef4: 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3

A) 4. ... d6 5.g3 and
B) 4. ... Nc6 5.g3 are OK for white, but as I already stated I'm unsure about

C) 4. ... Bg7 5.g3 g4 6.Nh4 d5!?
  
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