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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit (Read 86309 times)
TalJechin
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #129 - 04/23/14 at 12:12:43
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 04/23/14 at 10:22:53:
TalJechin wrote on 04/19/14 at 14:49:15:
I had a brief look at "1.  e4 e5 2.  f4 exf4 3.  Nf3 g5 4.  Bc4 Nc6 5.  O-O d6 6.  d4 h6 7.  c3 Bg7 8.  Qa4 Bd7 9.  Qb3 Na5 10.  Bxf7 Ke7 11.  Qa3 Kxf7 12.  Qxa5"

and one idea that popped up is 12...Kg6!?
[...]
I don't remember if we've discussed Kg6, but if it hasn't been mentioned before you could start a new thread for it, if you're interested?

Edit: After a closer look, I think 12...Kg6! is at least an edge for Black.
The good news is that Shaw's strange line vs my mainline is still okay for White. I prefer the Bd3-idea, but your Qd2-g5 also looks okay, though I'd prefer to have the queens on the board.

12...Kg6 indeed may be a good idea. But I am not sure whether it is stronger than, say, 8...Kf8, which also parries the direct threats, postponing the decision how to disrupt White's center to the future.

In these and similar lines in the Hanstein Gambit, I find it difficult to come to final conclusions. The analysis never ends in move 15 or 17, it's closer to 30 or so. Engines dislike the Hanstein, they fail to see the [OTB] merits of a pawn center. My 1986 book Das neue Königsgambit recommended the Hanstein/Muzio, as it appeared sound enough for my OTB play. Would I still recommend it, if I were in John Shaw's place and had a readership of PC owners, some of whom even play correspondence chess, or visit the truth-obsessed chesspub site? Hard to say.

As I see it, the fans of 3.Nf3 should regard the Kieseritzky Gambit as their first choice, while 3.Bc4 players can follow your main line. For both groups the Hanstein remains worth a look, as a fallback option, maybe to surprise an opponent. There is 8.Qa4, and there are other lines which are relatively unexplored. - John Shaw hasn't really studied the Hanstein, but still he claimed to have refuted 3.Bc4. This gap will hopefully be filled in the 2nd edition. Then would be a better moment to take a closer look at the Hanstein.


Sure we can postpone the dissecting of the Hanstein (I'm not sure I'll have the time at the moment anyway).
I wouldn't be surprised if there's something promising among the unexplored set-ups. But 8.Qa4 I simply don't believe in, even if one probably can get away with it OTB.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #128 - 04/23/14 at 10:22:53
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TalJechin wrote on 04/19/14 at 14:49:15:
I had a brief look at "1.  e4 e5 2.  f4 exf4 3.  Nf3 g5 4.  Bc4 Nc6 5.  O-O d6 6.  d4 h6 7.  c3 Bg7 8.  Qa4 Bd7 9.  Qb3 Na5 10.  Bxf7 Ke7 11.  Qa3 Kxf7 12.  Qxa5"

and one idea that popped up is 12...Kg6!?
[...]
I don't remember if we've discussed Kg6, but if it hasn't been mentioned before you could start a new thread for it, if you're interested?

Edit: After a closer look, I think 12...Kg6! is at least an edge for Black.
The good news is that Shaw's strange line vs my mainline is still okay for White. I prefer the Bd3-idea, but your Qd2-g5 also looks okay, though I'd prefer to have the queens on the board.

12...Kg6 indeed may be a good idea. But I am not sure whether it is stronger than, say, 8...Kf8, which also parries the direct threats, postponing the decision how to disrupt White's center to the future.

In these and similar lines in the Hanstein Gambit, I find it difficult to come to final conclusions. The analysis never ends in move 15 or 17, it's closer to 30 or so. Engines dislike the Hanstein, they fail to see the [OTB] merits of a pawn center. My 1986 book Das neue Königsgambit recommended the Hanstein/Muzio, as it appeared sound enough for my OTB play. Would I still recommend it, if I were in John Shaw's place and had a readership of PC owners, some of whom even play correspondence chess, or visit the truth-obsessed chesspub site? Hard to say.

As I see it, the fans of 3.Nf3 should regard the Kieseritzky Gambit as their first choice, while 3.Bc4 players can follow your main line. For both groups the Hanstein remains worth a look, as a fallback option, maybe to surprise an opponent. There is 8.Qa4, and there are other lines which are relatively unexplored. - John Shaw hasn't really studied the Hanstein, but still he claimed to have refuted 3.Bc4. This gap will hopefully be filled in the 2nd edition. Then would be a better moment to take a closer look at the Hanstein.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #127 - 04/19/14 at 14:49:15
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I had a brief look at "1.  e4 e5 2.  f4 exf4 3.  Nf3 g5 4.  Bc4 Nc6 5.  O-O d6 6.  d4 h6 7.  c3 Bg7 8.  Qa4 Bd7 9.  Qb3 Na5 10.  Bxf7 Ke7 11.  Qa3 Kxf7 12.  Qxa5"

and one idea that popped up is 12...Kg6!?

Black has the bishop pair, a slight space advantage and better development, plus that White is left with the wrong bishop and pawns on c3+d4, which makes the light squares a potential long term weakness.

White has an extra centre pawn and potential counter-chances vs Black's king.


So, consolidating the king with 12...Kg6 should have a higher priority than trying to strike back with 12...c5.

I don't remember if we've discussed Kg6, but if it hasn't been mentioned before you could start a new thread for it, if you're interested?

Edit: After a closer look, I think 12...Kg6! is at least an edge for Black.
The good news is that Shaw's strange line vs my mainline is still okay for White. I prefer the Bd3-idea, but your Qd2-g5 also looks okay, though I'd prefer to have the queens on the board.
« Last Edit: 04/20/14 at 10:00:02 by TalJechin »  
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MNb
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #126 - 04/19/14 at 13:09:07
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Not Caissiber Chess?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #125 - 04/19/14 at 12:34:17
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Just a short note. In the meantime I have exchanged e-mails with John Shaw, and we have settled our quarrel - at least the personal part of it, regarding the Kaissiber articles and the way they were credited in The King's Gambit. Disagreement about the "N" sign remains. I have proposed to use another sign instead: DB which would be defined as "a move not in our database". At the end of the day it is the decision of Quality Chess how they want to handle the history of an opening and the research.

Birders have rarity commissions for the occasional sightings of rare birds. In chess, a novelty commission might decide about the status of a published idea: new or not. Members of this commission could be the three big publishing houses: Quality Chess, Quantity Chess and Quasimodo Chess. Oh, wait...
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #124 - 02/26/14 at 17:56:22
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It seems to me that John Shaw's claim of a refutation of the King's Bishop Gambit depends not only on the "main line" (given by Johansson in The Fascinating King's Gambit), but also on the transposition to the Hanstein Gambit, via 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.Nf3 and so on. 

In an earlier thread, we have discussed the Hanstein, in particular the move 8.Qa4: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1305856339/20 . So let's look on John Shaw's coverage of that line. Did he find any improvements? I'll start with repeating my analysis from our old chesspub thread: 



John Shaw follows Zvjaginsev - Akopjan, Rijeka 2010. His main line looks like this:
"13...Qb6?!
Leaves the queen exposed: 13...Qc7 is better."

So Shaw just mentions a single move: 13...Qc7, without crediting the chespub. He doesn't prove an advantage for Black. This contradicts his own claim on page 456 regarding 8.Qa4: "[...] the antidote has been firmly established."

Some chesspub members may remember my heated discussion later in that thread with Taljechin, who had recommended 9...Qe7 10.Qxb7 Rb8. Shaw is similarly short about this one: "[...] has been studied in depth, but the main line offers a convincing solution." Hum, studied in depth by whom?

Not particularly helpful for someone who is trying to understand how exactly the King's Bishop Gambit is refuted...
  
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TalJechin
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #123 - 02/26/14 at 08:58:44
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RdC wrote on 02/25/14 at 22:31:51:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/25/14 at 17:28:38:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.d4 Nf6 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Bxf4?!


There's an Alekhine game from 1903 which went
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3. Bc4 Nc6 4. d4 Nf6 5. e5 Ne4 6. Bxf4 Qh4+ 7. g3 Nxg3 8. Bxg3 Qe4+ 9. Kf2 Qxh1. which is the available combination, if not quite the same position.



IIrc, I more or less refuted that line in the FKG, so Black's 5...d5 is essential.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #122 - 02/25/14 at 23:31:54
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/25/14 at 17:28:38:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.d4 Nf6 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Bxf4?!

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John Shaw in King's Gambit p.441:

Quote:
7...Qh4+!N
7...Be7 Tiller - Kennaugh, Sunningdale 2007.

So did Shaw improve over a game from 2007? No, as we have just seen (quoted above the diagram), he could have found the Queen move in Johansson's work. Henk Smout has found the following comment from Hans Kmoch on 7...Qh4+ in Nachtrag zu P.R. v. Bilguer (v.d. Lasa) Handbuch des Schachspiels für die Jahre 1916-1929, Berlin & Leipzig 1930, p. 59, footnote 16:

Quote:
Damit wird sowohl 6. Lb3 als auch 6. Lb5 widerlegt. Diese Möglichkeit wurde von J. Bubnow, Koslow, Sowjetrußland entdeckt.


Even when I played 7...Qh4+ against Koch in the French Team Championships 2012 I knew that it was the known refutation of White's setup and had been played before, and yet I am far from an expert on the King's Gambit.
Incidentally, the real 'N' only came on move 17!
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #121 - 02/25/14 at 22:31:51
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/25/14 at 17:28:38:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.d4 Nf6 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Bxf4?!


There's an Alekhine game from 1903 which went
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3. Bc4 Nc6 4. d4 Nf6 5. e5 Ne4 6. Bxf4 Qh4+ 7. g3 Nxg3 8. Bxg3 Qe4+ 9. Kf2 Qxh1. which is the available combination, if not quite the same position.



  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #120 - 02/25/14 at 21:51:05
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I kinda agree with Eric's comment, but I also seem to remember John Shaw being one of the editors at QC, or am I wrong?
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #119 - 02/25/14 at 19:21:14
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You know, I understand a lot of the criticism in this and the other thread, but it would be nice to hear the other side of the story.  Perhaps the publisher and/or author should be contacted?  Perhaps the author didn't write the 'Ns', but an editor added them later, and we're criticizing the wrong people.

I do think that some very good points have been raised, but at this point people are just making a stink on the Chesspub forums (so it seems to me), which isn't going to get anywhere.  A polite email or phone calls to Quality Chess, Aagaard, John Shaw, etc., might be in order, instead of airing everything in a public forum before the accused parties have had a chance to respond. 

Just a suggestion.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #118 - 02/25/14 at 18:00:58
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Hmm, so he puts "N" after every move his engine likes?!  N as in engiNe?  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #117 - 02/25/14 at 17:28:38
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1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.d4 Nf6 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Bxf4?!

Shaw, p.440, end of right column: "Objectively White's best chance is 7.Nf3N but after 7...g5! White does not have enough for the pawn. Micawber gives the illustrative line 8.h4 Ng3 9.Rh2 g4 [...]" However, 7.Nf3 had already been given by Johansson in The Fascinating King's Gambit, 2004, p. 110:

Quote:
7.Nf3!?N (7.Bxf4? Qh4+ [...] Bernstein, A - Sergeev, Moscow 1928) 7...g5 8.0-0 [...]

Shaw doesn't give Johansson's analysis starting 8.0-0, maybe 8.h4 is indeed a better try. Shaw might have just quoted another source in his bibliography: NiC Yearbook 75, p. 149:  8.0-0 a6 9.Lxc6 bxc6 =+ (Niek Narings).

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John Shaw in King's Gambit p.441:

Quote:
7...Qh4+!N
7...Be7 Tiller - Kennaugh, Sunningdale 2007.

So did Shaw improve over a game from 2007? No, as we have just seen (quoted above the diagram), he could have found the Queen move in Johansson's work. Henk Smout has found the following comment from Hans Kmoch on 7...Qh4+ in Nachtrag zu P.R. v. Bilguer (v.d. Lasa) Handbuch des Schachspiels für die Jahre 1916-1929, Berlin & Leipzig 1930, p. 59, footnote 16:

Quote:
Damit wird sowohl 6. Lb3 als auch 6. Lb5 widerlegt. Diese Möglichkeit wurde von J. Bubnow, Koslow, Sowjetrußland entdeckt.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #116 - 02/22/14 at 21:28:35
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This book recommends, I think, the idea of 3. .. Nc6 against the Kings Bishop Gambit of 3. Bc4. Presumably after 4. Nf3, you go back into normal territory with 4. .. g5.

But staying in the King Bishop territory with 4. .. Nf6 also has to be possible, as in a County match game earlier today. After 5. Nc3, I'm not sure what Black's next move should be. In the event I punted 5. .. d5 and after 6 exd5, a Two Knights lookalike with 6. .. Na5. The subsequent play appears to be original. White made a temporary sacrifice with 7. 0-0, so Black chopped it off 7. .. Nxc4. Then 8. Qe2+ is met by a desperado 8. .. Ne3 to block the e file for a moment. White takes it 9. dxe3 and Black develops the Bishop with a pin 9. .. Bc5. White then plays the check 10. Qb5 which forces 10. .. Nd7. White unpinned with 11. Kh1, whereupon Black has to take on e3 with the Bishop. 11. .. Bxe3 12.Bxe3 fxe3 13. Rae1. Now finally 13. .. 0-0 14. Rxe3 Nf6. I though at the time this was slightly better for White on development and activity grounds. The game as a contest now ended abruptly as White blundered with 15. Ng5 which allows 15. .. Ng4 winning material. The clever-looking 16. Nxf7 doesn't work because of 16. .. Nxe3 17 Nxd8 Rxf1+


  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #115 - 02/21/14 at 08:17:36
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Pale Horse, Pale Rider wrote on 02/20/14 at 22:44:47:
So I guess the conclusion is that either the author/editor didn't know all this, or chose to ignore it. In both cases it's not exactly good advertisement for QC. I guess the number of novelties is marketing feature too tempting too resist.

"Didn't know all this" seems unlikely, because several books that give 5.Qe2 are listed in the bibliography of King's Gambit. There are more examples like this one, a lot more. How many of those N signs are "true"? Hard to say. The N matter is complicated, some ideas in KG seem actually new, but don't have the N.

Hans Ree has written an article in NIC Magazine 6 (2013) p. 102-105, about his own love to the King's Gambit, refering to Shaw's book, calling the work "impressive". Ree's piece is full of personal and historical musings about the gambit. It gives a hint how rich the history of this opening is. It is a pity that Quality Chess has chosen to focus on the N side of the opening, badly ignoring the O (for Oldie) aspect. 

You have written "author/editor". It would indeed be interesting to know how much of the book is pure Shaw and how much editing there was by Jacob Aagaard. The phrase "technically, this is not a novelty" turns up in older books from Quality Chess, before the era Shaw. So I'd suspect that it comes from Aagaard.

By the way, Aagaard has contributed one of his games plus a very detailed analysis on pp. 291-295 (excellent work, imo). But you can't be sure that this is his only contribution. There is occasional material in other QC books with the Aagaard sound.
  
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