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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit (Read 102282 times)
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #151 - 03/11/17 at 12:27:00
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after 10.Qf2 Qxf2+ 11.Kxf2 Ne7! 12.Nb5 Kd8 13.Bxf4 a6 14.Nc3 Nbc6 15.Rd1 white seems to have full compensation for the pawn.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #150 - 03/11/17 at 12:11:01
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buddho wrote on 03/11/17 at 12:00:50:
Hi Brabo, yes that's the solution - great!

Without deep analysis of this line the engines are initially deterred by 10.Qf2 g3, which turns out to be great for white after 11.Qxf4.

Many thanks.

After 10.Qf2 g3 11.Qxf4 g2+ 12.Qxh4 gxh1(Q) black is a rook up but the engine coolly plays 13.Kf2 and doesn't see any rescue anymore for blacks second queen. The Kingsgambit is definitely not boring. I doubt very much that I would see all this in advance when playing unprepared a standard game.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #149 - 03/11/17 at 12:00:50
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Hi Brabo, yes that's the solution - great!

Without deep analysis of this line the engines are initially deterred by 10.Qf2 g3, which turns out to be great for white after 11.Qxf4.

Many thanks.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #148 - 03/11/17 at 10:20:54
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This analysis has of course nothing anymore to do with OTB chess as I expect chance is close to 0% such lines can occur in normal practice.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #147 - 03/10/17 at 16:21:38
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I think 8 Nf5 can be nicely met by 8...Bxf5 9 exf5 Nc6, when 10 Bb5 is neutralized by 10...Kf8! - Black's King seems pretty safe here, and I don't think White's manages to make it to the Queenside. e.g. upon regaining the pawn with 11 Bxc6 (11 Qxg4 Nxd4) 11...bxc6 12 Qxg4, there is 12...h5 13 Qf3 and now the annoying sequence 13...fxg3 14 hxg3 Bxc1 15 Rxc1 Qg5!, when it looks like Black has a clear advantage either in the ending (after 16 Qf4 Qxf4 17 exf4) or the middlegame, where White's King looks to be in danger.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #146 - 03/10/17 at 08:09:38
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buddho wrote on 03/09/17 at 17:02:53:
I have come across a problem for white that I cannot solve.

After 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 g5 5.g3 g4 6.Nh4 Bh6! the best I can do for white is 7.Nc3 Bg5 8.Ng2 f3 9.Nf4 h5 10.h4 Bf6 11.Be3 c6 12.Qd2 Bg7 13.O-O-O Ne7 =+

Any improvements for white?


Did you look at 8 Nf5 - ?
  

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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #145 - 03/09/17 at 17:02:53
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I have come across a problem for white that I cannot solve.

After 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 g5 5.g3 g4 6.Nh4 Bh6! the best I can do for white is 7.Nc3 Bg5 8.Ng2 f3 9.Nf4 h5 10.h4 Bf6 11.Be3 c6 12.Qd2 Bg7 13.O-O-O Ne7 =+

Any improvements for white?
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #144 - 02/11/17 at 20:15:16
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/19/14 at 11:39:42:
Your analysis in The Fascinating King's Gambit still holds in my opinion. But instead of 11.Ng3?, White should play 11.Qd2! intending 11...0-0 12.Qg5. When the queens are exchanged, there is not the slightest reason why Black's fewer pawn islands should be a factor. White's center may well be more important. A refutation of the King's Bishop Gambit this Black line is certainly not.


And I've now just blogged about that:
http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/012-bust-to-bishops-gambit.html
Smiley
  

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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #143 - 07/13/15 at 15:24:11
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/19/14 at 11:39:42:
Your analysis in The Fascinating King's Gambit still holds in my opinion. But instead of 11.Ng3?, White should play 11.Qd2! intending 11...0-0 12.Qg5. When the queens are exchanged, there is not the slightest reason why Black's fewer pawn islands should be a factor. White's center may well be more important. A refutation of the King's Bishop Gambit this Black line is certainly not.


regarding which...

  

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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #142 - 07/07/15 at 05:58:50
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/06/15 at 15:09:47:
Jon, I'm not hugely familiar with the theory here. Did either of these two games challenge Shaw's analysis?


More that they added to it a bit, and they were my first games with the Quaade (tsmenace is my handle), so I thought I'd share them. The first one refers to Shaw page 169; the second to Shaw page 140 – 5...Nc6! etc is his line, and it's pretty equal.
  

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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #141 - 07/06/15 at 15:09:47
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Jon, I'm not hugely familiar with the theory here. Did either of these two games challenge Shaw's analysis?
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #140 - 07/02/15 at 14:33:56
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two new Quaade games:

(when I figure out how to use the PGN function)



« Last Edit: 07/07/15 at 10:33:52 by GMTonyKosten »  

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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #139 - 11/25/14 at 22:04:32
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TalJechin wrote on 04/19/14 at 14:49:15:
I had a brief look at "1.  e4 e5 2.  f4 exf4 3.  Nf3 g5 4.  Bc4 Nc6 5.  O-O d6 6.  d4 h6 7.  c3 Bg7 8.  Qa4 Bd7 9.  Qb3 Na5 10.  Bxf7 Ke7 11.  Qa3 Kxf7 12.  Qxa5"

and one idea that popped up is 12...Kg6!?

Black has the bishop pair, a slight space advantage and better development, plus that White is left with the wrong bishop and pawns on c3+d4, which makes the light squares a potential long term weakness.

White has an extra centre pawn and potential counter-chances vs Black's king.


So, consolidating the king with 12...Kg6 should have a higher priority than trying to strike back with 12...c5.

I don't remember if we've discussed Kg6, but if it hasn't been mentioned before you could start a new thread for it, if you're interested?

Edit: After a closer look, I think 12...Kg6! is at least an edge for Black.
The good news is that Shaw's strange line vs my mainline is still okay for White. I prefer the Bd3-idea, but your Qd2-g5 also looks okay, though I'd prefer to have the queens on the board.


An interesting alternative to investigate earlier on might be 8...a6!?, which is ignored by Shaw, but seems to be favoured by Stockfish. The first point is that 9.d5 is met by 9...Bg4! and now if 10.dxc6?!, then b5! favours Black. If instead 10.Na3! b5! 11.Nxb5 axb5 12.Qxb5 Nge7 13.dxc6 Black ends up temporarily a pawn down, but with good compensation in terms of better placed pieces, open lines and - possibly soon to come - increased pressure on whites queen side pawns.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #138 - 11/02/14 at 08:19:59
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Ametanoitos wrote on 10/01/14 at 10:40:41:
Just a joke. You guys have comminted a crime not quoting Gustaffson who was the first one who proposed this ...Kg6 novelty!


12...Kg6 is also given by Shaw (although he arrives at the position after 10...Kf8 instead of 10...Ke7, but after 11.Kxf7 that doesn´t change anything). He credits Gustafsson for the suggestion and states that it looks good after 13.Nbd2 Ne7, or 13.g3 fxg3 14.hxg3 c5!?
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #137 - 10/02/14 at 02:07:33
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I can guarantee that the rumours are true! I was going through these lines here and suddenly when i hit upon ...Kg6 i had a memory flash and i was sure that i had seen this before somewhere.... So, i said to myself "let me check Gusti..." and i was right!
« Last Edit: 10/02/14 at 18:21:23 by Ametanoitos »  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #136 - 10/01/14 at 14:51:58
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Ametanoitos wrote on 10/01/14 at 10:40:41:
Just a joke. You guys have comminted a crime not quoting Gustaffson who was the first one who proposed this ...Kg6 novelty!

Apologies to Jan Gustafsson. I prefer books over videos, but rumours have it that Gustafsson's videos are worth the trouble. Besides, see reply #19 of this thread: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1292872423/all
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #135 - 10/01/14 at 10:40:41
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 04/23/14 at 10:22:53:
TalJechin wrote on 04/19/14 at 14:49:15:
I had a brief look at "1.  e4 e5 2.  f4 exf4 3.  Nf3 g5 4.  Bc4 Nc6 5.  O-O d6 6.  d4 h6 7.  c3 Bg7 8.  Qa4 Bd7 9.  Qb3 Na5 10.  Bxf7 Ke7 11.  Qa3 Kxf7 12.  Qxa5"

and one idea that popped up is 12...Kg6!?
[...]
I don't remember if we've discussed Kg6, but if it hasn't been mentioned before you could start a new thread for it, if you're interested?

Edit: After a closer look, I think 12...Kg6! is at least an edge for Black.
The good news is that Shaw's strange line vs my mainline is still okay for White. I prefer the Bd3-idea, but your Qd2-g5 also looks okay, though I'd prefer to have the queens on the board.

12...Kg6 indeed may be a good idea. But I am not sure whether it is stronger than, say, 8...Kf8, which also parries the direct threats, postponing the decision how to disrupt White's center to the future.

In these and similar lines in the Hanstein Gambit, I find it difficult to come to final conclusions. The analysis never ends in move 15 or 17, it's closer to 30 or so. Engines dislike the Hanstein, they fail to see the [OTB] merits of a pawn center. My 1986 book Das neue Königsgambit recommended the Hanstein/Muzio, as it appeared sound enough for my OTB play. Would I still recommend it, if I were in John Shaw's place and had a readership of PC owners, some of whom even play correspondence chess, or visit the truth-obsessed chesspub site? Hard to say.

As I see it, the fans of 3.Nf3 should regard the Kieseritzky Gambit as their first choice, while 3.Bc4 players can follow your main line. For both groups the Hanstein remains worth a look, as a fallback option, maybe to surprise an opponent. There is 8.Qa4, and there are other lines which are relatively unexplored. - John Shaw hasn't really studied the Hanstein, but still he claimed to have refuted 3.Bc4. This gap will hopefully be filled in the 2nd edition. Then would be a better moment to take a closer look at the Hanstein.


Just a joke. You guys have comminted a crime not quoting Gustaffson who was the first one who proposed this ...Kg6 novelty!
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #134 - 08/14/14 at 06:47:29
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This time an in-depth overview/ analysis of the Nf3 line and more particular the complex of Fischer's defense/Becker's defense/Quaade gambit:
http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2014/08/kings-gambit-with-nf3.html
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #133 - 08/08/14 at 12:43:59
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A new blogarticle covering some points which were discussed in this thread on chesspub but also some new material on the Bc4 line:
http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2014/08/kings-gambit-with-bc4.html
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #132 - 07/05/14 at 06:02:49
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/26/14 at 17:56:22:
It seems to me that John Shaw's claim of a refutation of the King's Bishop Gambit depends not only on the "main line" (given by Johansson in The Fascinating King's Gambit), but also on the transposition to the Hanstein Gambit, via 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.Nf3 and so on. 

In an earlier thread, we have discussed the Hanstein, in particular the move 8.Qa4: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1305856339/20 . So let's look on John Shaw's coverage of that line. Did he find any improvements? I'll start with repeating my analysis from our old chesspub thread: 



John Shaw follows Zvjaginsev - Akopjan, Rijeka 2010. His main line looks like this:
"13...Qb6?!
Leaves the queen exposed: 13...Qc7 is better."

So Shaw just mentions a single move: 13...Qc7, without crediting the chespub. He doesn't prove an advantage for Black. This contradicts his own claim on page 456 regarding 8.Qa4: "[...] the antidote has been firmly established."

Some chesspub members may remember my heated discussion later in that thread with Taljechin, who had recommended 9...Qe7 10.Qxb7 Rb8. Shaw is similarly short about this one: "[...] has been studied in depth, but the main line offers a convincing solution." Hum, studied in depth by whom?

Not particularly helpful for someone who is trying to understand how exactly the King's Bishop Gambit is refuted...



Exactly!!!
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #131 - 07/05/14 at 05:33:53
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TalJechin wrote on 04/19/14 at 14:49:15:
I had a brief look at "1.  e4 e5 2.  f4 exf4 3.  Nf3 g5 4.  Bc4 Nc6 5.  O-O d6 6.  d4 h6 7.  c3 Bg7 8.  Qa4 Bd7 9.  Qb3 Na5 10.  Bxf7 Ke7 11.  Qa3 Kxf7 12.  Qxa5"

and one idea that popped up is 12...Kg6!?

Black has the bishop pair, a slight space advantage and better development, plus that White is left with the wrong bishop and pawns on c3+d4, which makes the light squares a potential long term weakness.

White has an extra centre pawn and potential counter-chances vs Black's king.


So, consolidating the king with 12...Kg6 should have a higher priority than trying to strike back with 12...c5.

I don't remember if we've discussed Kg6, but if it hasn't been mentioned before you could start a new thread for it, if you're interested?

Edit: After a closer look, I think 12...Kg6! is at least an edge for Black.
The good news is that Shaw's strange line vs my mainline is still okay for White. I prefer the Bd3-idea, but your Qd2-g5 also looks okay, though I'd prefer to have the queens on the board.



That is what I am analysing ATM. There are only 3 good alternatives for black. Kg6, Ne7 and c5. Will post the results soon.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #130 - 04/29/14 at 07:27:33
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 04/19/14 at 12:34:17:
Disagreement about the "N" sign remains. I have proposed to use another sign instead: DB which would be defined as "a move not in our database".

Alternatively, QC and other chess publishers could drop the capital "N" and use the sign "n" instead, defining it as "n" = the same as the traditional N for "novelty", but research limited to databases. The "n" would indicate that the author is focused on analysis, not [historical] research.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #129 - 04/23/14 at 12:12:43
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 04/23/14 at 10:22:53:
TalJechin wrote on 04/19/14 at 14:49:15:
I had a brief look at "1.  e4 e5 2.  f4 exf4 3.  Nf3 g5 4.  Bc4 Nc6 5.  O-O d6 6.  d4 h6 7.  c3 Bg7 8.  Qa4 Bd7 9.  Qb3 Na5 10.  Bxf7 Ke7 11.  Qa3 Kxf7 12.  Qxa5"

and one idea that popped up is 12...Kg6!?
[...]
I don't remember if we've discussed Kg6, but if it hasn't been mentioned before you could start a new thread for it, if you're interested?

Edit: After a closer look, I think 12...Kg6! is at least an edge for Black.
The good news is that Shaw's strange line vs my mainline is still okay for White. I prefer the Bd3-idea, but your Qd2-g5 also looks okay, though I'd prefer to have the queens on the board.

12...Kg6 indeed may be a good idea. But I am not sure whether it is stronger than, say, 8...Kf8, which also parries the direct threats, postponing the decision how to disrupt White's center to the future.

In these and similar lines in the Hanstein Gambit, I find it difficult to come to final conclusions. The analysis never ends in move 15 or 17, it's closer to 30 or so. Engines dislike the Hanstein, they fail to see the [OTB] merits of a pawn center. My 1986 book Das neue Königsgambit recommended the Hanstein/Muzio, as it appeared sound enough for my OTB play. Would I still recommend it, if I were in John Shaw's place and had a readership of PC owners, some of whom even play correspondence chess, or visit the truth-obsessed chesspub site? Hard to say.

As I see it, the fans of 3.Nf3 should regard the Kieseritzky Gambit as their first choice, while 3.Bc4 players can follow your main line. For both groups the Hanstein remains worth a look, as a fallback option, maybe to surprise an opponent. There is 8.Qa4, and there are other lines which are relatively unexplored. - John Shaw hasn't really studied the Hanstein, but still he claimed to have refuted 3.Bc4. This gap will hopefully be filled in the 2nd edition. Then would be a better moment to take a closer look at the Hanstein.


Sure we can postpone the dissecting of the Hanstein (I'm not sure I'll have the time at the moment anyway).
I wouldn't be surprised if there's something promising among the unexplored set-ups. But 8.Qa4 I simply don't believe in, even if one probably can get away with it OTB.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #128 - 04/23/14 at 10:22:53
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TalJechin wrote on 04/19/14 at 14:49:15:
I had a brief look at "1.  e4 e5 2.  f4 exf4 3.  Nf3 g5 4.  Bc4 Nc6 5.  O-O d6 6.  d4 h6 7.  c3 Bg7 8.  Qa4 Bd7 9.  Qb3 Na5 10.  Bxf7 Ke7 11.  Qa3 Kxf7 12.  Qxa5"

and one idea that popped up is 12...Kg6!?
[...]
I don't remember if we've discussed Kg6, but if it hasn't been mentioned before you could start a new thread for it, if you're interested?

Edit: After a closer look, I think 12...Kg6! is at least an edge for Black.
The good news is that Shaw's strange line vs my mainline is still okay for White. I prefer the Bd3-idea, but your Qd2-g5 also looks okay, though I'd prefer to have the queens on the board.

12...Kg6 indeed may be a good idea. But I am not sure whether it is stronger than, say, 8...Kf8, which also parries the direct threats, postponing the decision how to disrupt White's center to the future.

In these and similar lines in the Hanstein Gambit, I find it difficult to come to final conclusions. The analysis never ends in move 15 or 17, it's closer to 30 or so. Engines dislike the Hanstein, they fail to see the [OTB] merits of a pawn center. My 1986 book Das neue Königsgambit recommended the Hanstein/Muzio, as it appeared sound enough for my OTB play. Would I still recommend it, if I were in John Shaw's place and had a readership of PC owners, some of whom even play correspondence chess, or visit the truth-obsessed chesspub site? Hard to say.

As I see it, the fans of 3.Nf3 should regard the Kieseritzky Gambit as their first choice, while 3.Bc4 players can follow your main line. For both groups the Hanstein remains worth a look, as a fallback option, maybe to surprise an opponent. There is 8.Qa4, and there are other lines which are relatively unexplored. - John Shaw hasn't really studied the Hanstein, but still he claimed to have refuted 3.Bc4. This gap will hopefully be filled in the 2nd edition. Then would be a better moment to take a closer look at the Hanstein.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #127 - 04/19/14 at 14:49:15
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I had a brief look at "1.  e4 e5 2.  f4 exf4 3.  Nf3 g5 4.  Bc4 Nc6 5.  O-O d6 6.  d4 h6 7.  c3 Bg7 8.  Qa4 Bd7 9.  Qb3 Na5 10.  Bxf7 Ke7 11.  Qa3 Kxf7 12.  Qxa5"

and one idea that popped up is 12...Kg6!?

Black has the bishop pair, a slight space advantage and better development, plus that White is left with the wrong bishop and pawns on c3+d4, which makes the light squares a potential long term weakness.

White has an extra centre pawn and potential counter-chances vs Black's king.


So, consolidating the king with 12...Kg6 should have a higher priority than trying to strike back with 12...c5.

I don't remember if we've discussed Kg6, but if it hasn't been mentioned before you could start a new thread for it, if you're interested?

Edit: After a closer look, I think 12...Kg6! is at least an edge for Black.
The good news is that Shaw's strange line vs my mainline is still okay for White. I prefer the Bd3-idea, but your Qd2-g5 also looks okay, though I'd prefer to have the queens on the board.
« Last Edit: 04/20/14 at 10:00:02 by TalJechin »  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #126 - 04/19/14 at 13:09:07
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #125 - 04/19/14 at 12:34:17
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Just a short note. In the meantime I have exchanged e-mails with John Shaw, and we have settled our quarrel - at least the personal part of it, regarding the Kaissiber articles and the way they were credited in The King's Gambit. Disagreement about the "N" sign remains. I have proposed to use another sign instead: DB which would be defined as "a move not in our database". At the end of the day it is the decision of Quality Chess how they want to handle the history of an opening and the research.

Birders have rarity commissions for the occasional sightings of rare birds. In chess, a novelty commission might decide about the status of a published idea: new or not. Members of this commission could be the three big publishing houses: Quality Chess, Quantity Chess and Quasimodo Chess. Oh, wait...
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #124 - 02/26/14 at 17:56:22
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It seems to me that John Shaw's claim of a refutation of the King's Bishop Gambit depends not only on the "main line" (given by Johansson in The Fascinating King's Gambit), but also on the transposition to the Hanstein Gambit, via 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.Nf3 and so on. 

In an earlier thread, we have discussed the Hanstein, in particular the move 8.Qa4: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1305856339/20 . So let's look on John Shaw's coverage of that line. Did he find any improvements? I'll start with repeating my analysis from our old chesspub thread: 



John Shaw follows Zvjaginsev - Akopjan, Rijeka 2010. His main line looks like this:
"13...Qb6?!
Leaves the queen exposed: 13...Qc7 is better."

So Shaw just mentions a single move: 13...Qc7, without crediting the chespub. He doesn't prove an advantage for Black. This contradicts his own claim on page 456 regarding 8.Qa4: "[...] the antidote has been firmly established."

Some chesspub members may remember my heated discussion later in that thread with Taljechin, who had recommended 9...Qe7 10.Qxb7 Rb8. Shaw is similarly short about this one: "[...] has been studied in depth, but the main line offers a convincing solution." Hum, studied in depth by whom?

Not particularly helpful for someone who is trying to understand how exactly the King's Bishop Gambit is refuted...
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #123 - 02/26/14 at 08:58:44
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RdC wrote on 02/25/14 at 22:31:51:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/25/14 at 17:28:38:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.d4 Nf6 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Bxf4?!


There's an Alekhine game from 1903 which went
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3. Bc4 Nc6 4. d4 Nf6 5. e5 Ne4 6. Bxf4 Qh4+ 7. g3 Nxg3 8. Bxg3 Qe4+ 9. Kf2 Qxh1. which is the available combination, if not quite the same position.



IIrc, I more or less refuted that line in the FKG, so Black's 5...d5 is essential.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #122 - 02/25/14 at 23:31:54
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/25/14 at 17:28:38:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.d4 Nf6 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Bxf4?!

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

John Shaw in King's Gambit p.441:

Quote:
7...Qh4+!N
7...Be7 Tiller - Kennaugh, Sunningdale 2007.

So did Shaw improve over a game from 2007? No, as we have just seen (quoted above the diagram), he could have found the Queen move in Johansson's work. Henk Smout has found the following comment from Hans Kmoch on 7...Qh4+ in Nachtrag zu P.R. v. Bilguer (v.d. Lasa) Handbuch des Schachspiels für die Jahre 1916-1929, Berlin & Leipzig 1930, p. 59, footnote 16:

Quote:
Damit wird sowohl 6. Lb3 als auch 6. Lb5 widerlegt. Diese Möglichkeit wurde von J. Bubnow, Koslow, Sowjetrußland entdeckt.


Even when I played 7...Qh4+ against Koch in the French Team Championships 2012 I knew that it was the known refutation of White's setup and had been played before, and yet I am far from an expert on the King's Gambit.
Incidentally, the real 'N' only came on move 17!
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #121 - 02/25/14 at 22:31:51
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/25/14 at 17:28:38:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.d4 Nf6 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Bxf4?!


There's an Alekhine game from 1903 which went
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3. Bc4 Nc6 4. d4 Nf6 5. e5 Ne4 6. Bxf4 Qh4+ 7. g3 Nxg3 8. Bxg3 Qe4+ 9. Kf2 Qxh1. which is the available combination, if not quite the same position.



  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #120 - 02/25/14 at 21:51:05
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I kinda agree with Eric's comment, but I also seem to remember John Shaw being one of the editors at QC, or am I wrong?
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #119 - 02/25/14 at 19:21:14
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You know, I understand a lot of the criticism in this and the other thread, but it would be nice to hear the other side of the story.  Perhaps the publisher and/or author should be contacted?  Perhaps the author didn't write the 'Ns', but an editor added them later, and we're criticizing the wrong people.

I do think that some very good points have been raised, but at this point people are just making a stink on the Chesspub forums (so it seems to me), which isn't going to get anywhere.  A polite email or phone calls to Quality Chess, Aagaard, John Shaw, etc., might be in order, instead of airing everything in a public forum before the accused parties have had a chance to respond. 

Just a suggestion.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #118 - 02/25/14 at 18:00:58
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Hmm, so he puts "N" after every move his engine likes?!  N as in engiNe?  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #117 - 02/25/14 at 17:28:38
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1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.d4 Nf6 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Bxf4?!

Shaw, p.440, end of right column: "Objectively White's best chance is 7.Nf3N but after 7...g5! White does not have enough for the pawn. Micawber gives the illustrative line 8.h4 Ng3 9.Rh2 g4 [...]" However, 7.Nf3 had already been given by Johansson in The Fascinating King's Gambit, 2004, p. 110:

Quote:
7.Nf3!?N (7.Bxf4? Qh4+ [...] Bernstein, A - Sergeev, Moscow 1928) 7...g5 8.0-0 [...]

Shaw doesn't give Johansson's analysis starting 8.0-0, maybe 8.h4 is indeed a better try. Shaw might have just quoted another source in his bibliography: NiC Yearbook 75, p. 149:  8.0-0 a6 9.Lxc6 bxc6 =+ (Niek Narings).

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

John Shaw in King's Gambit p.441:

Quote:
7...Qh4+!N
7...Be7 Tiller - Kennaugh, Sunningdale 2007.

So did Shaw improve over a game from 2007? No, as we have just seen (quoted above the diagram), he could have found the Queen move in Johansson's work. Henk Smout has found the following comment from Hans Kmoch on 7...Qh4+ in Nachtrag zu P.R. v. Bilguer (v.d. Lasa) Handbuch des Schachspiels für die Jahre 1916-1929, Berlin & Leipzig 1930, p. 59, footnote 16:

Quote:
Damit wird sowohl 6. Lb3 als auch 6. Lb5 widerlegt. Diese Möglichkeit wurde von J. Bubnow, Koslow, Sowjetrußland entdeckt.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #116 - 02/22/14 at 21:28:35
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This book recommends, I think, the idea of 3. .. Nc6 against the Kings Bishop Gambit of 3. Bc4. Presumably after 4. Nf3, you go back into normal territory with 4. .. g5.

But staying in the King Bishop territory with 4. .. Nf6 also has to be possible, as in a County match game earlier today. After 5. Nc3, I'm not sure what Black's next move should be. In the event I punted 5. .. d5 and after 6 exd5, a Two Knights lookalike with 6. .. Na5. The subsequent play appears to be original. White made a temporary sacrifice with 7. 0-0, so Black chopped it off 7. .. Nxc4. Then 8. Qe2+ is met by a desperado 8. .. Ne3 to block the e file for a moment. White takes it 9. dxe3 and Black develops the Bishop with a pin 9. .. Bc5. White then plays the check 10. Qb5 which forces 10. .. Nd7. White unpinned with 11. Kh1, whereupon Black has to take on e3 with the Bishop. 11. .. Bxe3 12.Bxe3 fxe3 13. Rae1. Now finally 13. .. 0-0 14. Rxe3 Nf6. I though at the time this was slightly better for White on development and activity grounds. The game as a contest now ended abruptly as White blundered with 15. Ng5 which allows 15. .. Ng4 winning material. The clever-looking 16. Nxf7 doesn't work because of 16. .. Nxe3 17 Nxd8 Rxf1+


  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #115 - 02/21/14 at 08:17:36
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Pale Horse, Pale Rider wrote on 02/20/14 at 22:44:47:
So I guess the conclusion is that either the author/editor didn't know all this, or chose to ignore it. In both cases it's not exactly good advertisement for QC. I guess the number of novelties is marketing feature too tempting too resist.

"Didn't know all this" seems unlikely, because several books that give 5.Qe2 are listed in the bibliography of King's Gambit. There are more examples like this one, a lot more. How many of those N signs are "true"? Hard to say. The N matter is complicated, some ideas in KG seem actually new, but don't have the N.

Hans Ree has written an article in NIC Magazine 6 (2013) p. 102-105, about his own love to the King's Gambit, refering to Shaw's book, calling the work "impressive". Ree's piece is full of personal and historical musings about the gambit. It gives a hint how rich the history of this opening is. It is a pity that Quality Chess has chosen to focus on the N side of the opening, badly ignoring the O (for Oldie) aspect. 

You have written "author/editor". It would indeed be interesting to know how much of the book is pure Shaw and how much editing there was by Jacob Aagaard. The phrase "technically, this is not a novelty" turns up in older books from Quality Chess, before the era Shaw. So I'd suspect that it comes from Aagaard.

By the way, Aagaard has contributed one of his games plus a very detailed analysis on pp. 291-295 (excellent work, imo). But you can't be sure that this is his only contribution. There is occasional material in other QC books with the Aagaard sound.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #114 - 02/20/14 at 22:44:47
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So I guess the conclusion is that either the author/editor didn't know all this, or chose to ignore it. In both cases it's not exactly good advertisement for QC. I guess the number of novelties is marketing feature too tempting too resist.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #113 - 02/20/14 at 19:45:31
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It seems Quality Chess is really stretching their use of the 'N' symbol in some cases. Disappointing, and a case of false marketing since they can then claim their books contain that many more novelties.
  

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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #112 - 02/20/14 at 17:21:45
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dfan wrote on 02/20/14 at 14:46:26:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/20/14 at 14:15:13:
But I can't claim that I fully understand the Chess Informant logic. Neither do I understand what the N stands for when John Shaw or Jacob Aagaard are using it. Quality Chess books contain sentences like "Technically this is not a novelty, but..." So it seems that there are cases when a move isn't new, but Quality Chess doesn't care and puts an N behind the move, because - well, I have no idea. When you know earlier sources which have given a move, why can't you just credit the earlier author? Wouldn't this be the honest thing to do?

I'd have to see the particular instance to which you refer, but sometimes this language means that the move has been played by a (relatively) weak player who didn't follow it up correctly, so the move has been played before, but the idea behind it is new. I do think that it is stretching things to still call that move a novelty in that sort of case.


Okay, so let me give you an example.
Shaw: The King's Gambit, p. 427, right column:

Quote:
4...d6.
This logical move has only been played in a couple of games, including Kulaots - Kiltti, Vantaa 1996. White's best reply looks to be:
5.Qe2!N
Technically a novelty, although it has been considered by a few commentators.


The move 5. Qe2 has been played before, and not by some patzers: Bronstein - Drozdov, Riga 1986.

However, the move 5.Qe2 has a much older history. Let's see the tournament book Vienna 1903, p.65:



So Carl Schlechter credits 5.Qe2 to Simon Alapin, giving the move two exclamation marks. It wouldn't be fair to say that the move has merely been "considered", as Shaw puts it. No, the move has been clearly recommended, no doubt about it, by Alapin and Carl Schlechter. This comment had also appeared in Deutsche Schachzeitung (since Carl Schlechter was editing the DSZ). The idea 5.Qe2 is also getting "!!" in Wiener Schachzeitung 1904, p. 236. Would you call this merely "considered"?

In WSZ 1904, p. 84, there is more analysis of 5.Qe2 by Alapin. Who else did mention the move 5.Qe2? Rudolf Spielmann in the 8th edition of the Handbuch ("Bilguer"), Euwe, Keres, Korchnoi/Zak, older editions of ECO C, Estrin/Glazkov, Gallagher, Soltis, Raingruber/Maser, Bangiev, Johansson, Reinderman 2006, Kalinichenko. Many of these authors are putting an exclamation mark after 5.Qe2.

Many thanks to Henk Smout for researching the case.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #111 - 02/20/14 at 16:23:57
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dfan wrote on 02/20/14 at 14:46:26:
I'd have to see the particular instance to which you refer, but sometimes this language means that the move has been played by a (relatively) weak player who didn't follow it up correctly, so the move has been played before, but the idea behind it is new. I do think that it is stretching things to still call that move a novelty in that sort of case.

I think in this case the new move following the rare move should be labelled 'novelty' ...
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #110 - 02/20/14 at 14:46:26
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/20/14 at 14:15:13:
But I can't claim that I fully understand the Chess Informant logic. Neither do I understand what the N stands for when John Shaw or Jacob Aagaard are using it. Quality Chess books contain sentences like "Technically this is not a novelty, but..." So it seems that there are cases when a move isn't new, but Quality Chess doesn't care and puts an N behind the move, because - well, I have no idea. When you know earlier sources which have given a move, why can't you just credit the earlier author? Wouldn't this be the honest thing to do?

I'd have to see the particular instance to which you refer, but sometimes this language means that the move has been played by a (relatively) weak player who didn't follow it up correctly, so the move has been played before, but the idea behind it is new. I do think that it is stretching things to still call that move a novelty in that sort of case.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #109 - 02/20/14 at 14:15:13
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Pale Horse, Pale Rider wrote on 02/20/14 at 12:10:07:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/20/14 at 10:49:29:
By the way - I wonder: who invented the N sign in opening books? Doesn't it basically have the same meaning as Oskar Cordel's sign * used in his Führer durch die Schachtheorie (1888)? The German theoretician defined the new sign on p. xi of the work as follows:


This surely doesn't clear up the matter, but the * is nowadays being used in the pgn-files meaning 'unfinished game' instead of a result (1-0 etc), so i guess it can't be used in this context anymore. I always thought that TN and N meant the same thing: a new move that cannot be found in databases but I might be terribly wrong. Maybe the T underlining that the new move is of (possible) theoretical relevance and not just bad but new move in a given situation.

Yes, this would be a possible interpretation: N for new move, a move not published before, TN for a N accepted as strong by the editorial staff. - But I suspect that Chess Informant had to reconsider their practice when the ECO series started. They had probably intented that in later Informants an N should only be used for moves not before considered in ECO volumes. Following this logic, the early ECO C had no use for "N" anymore. But in later editions the N sign made a reappearance. Apparently the N was too useful.

But I can't claim that I fully understand the Chess Informant logic. Neither do I understand what the N stands for when John Shaw or Jacob Aagaard are using it. Quality Chess books contain sentences like "Technically this is not a novelty, but..." So it seems that there are cases when a move isn't new, but Quality Chess doesn't care and puts an N behind the move, because - well, I have no idea. When you know earlier sources which have given a move, why can't you just credit the earlier author? Wouldn't this be the honest thing to do?
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #108 - 02/20/14 at 12:10:07
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/20/14 at 10:49:29:
By the way - I wonder: who invented the N sign in opening books? Doesn't it basically have the same meaning as Oskar Cordel's sign * used in his Führer durch die Schachtheorie (1888)? The German theoretician defined the new sign on p. xi of the work as follows:


This surely doesn't clear up the matter, but the * is nowadays being used in the pgn-files meaning 'unfinished game' instead of a result (1-0 etc), so i guess it can't be used in this context anymore. I always thought that TN and N meant the same thing: a new move that cannot be found in databases but I might be terribly wrong. Maybe the T underlining that the new move is of (possible) theoretical relevance and not just bad but new move in a given situation.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #107 - 02/20/14 at 10:49:29
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TalJechin wrote on 02/19/14 at 16:30:00:
I'll have a look at your 11.Qd2N in a few days.

By the way - I wonder: who invented the N sign in opening books? Doesn't it basically have the same meaning as Oskar Cordel's sign * used in his Führer durch die Schachtheorie (1888)? The German theoretician defined the new sign on p. xi of the work as follows:

Quote:
Die von mir angegebenen oder empfohlenen Züge sind mit * bezeichnet. Zuweilen giebt diese Marke lediglich an, von wo ab meine Bearbeitung einer Wendung beginnt.

On second thought, does his * sign really mean the same as the N sign which we see in more recent works? By his definition, Cordel is using the * sign only for moves suggested and recommended by him - moves that haven't appeared in earlier sources. He might as well have used the N sign, as a shorthand for "Neuerung / novelty", because this is exactly what he claims.

Chess Informant has had various definitions of the N symbol. In volume 10 there are even two symbols:
TN "a theoretical novelty / Theoretische Neuerung"
N "Novelty / Die Neuerung". - I can't tell the difference between the two. 

In vol. 11 N is defined as "A novelty / Die Neuerung". In later volumes, the TN has gone. Now it is just N "a novelty / eine Neuerung". I've also seen (where?) N defined as "novelty in the system of Chess Informant", or something similar. A definition that makes it possible to say "1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 Ne4N".  Cry

John Shaw gives no definition of "N" in his The King's Gambit at all. How many N moves in this work may be actual novelties?
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #106 - 02/19/14 at 16:53:44
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PANFR wrote on 02/19/14 at 12:14:23:
No, factly he doesn't mention the move at all.
I had a brief look at 9.d4 sometime ago, and I concluded that it' equal- but I did not attempt any serious analysis, and the existing games on it (I have 25 of them, mostly from correspondence chess, although with little involvement of really good correspondence players) suggest that a draw is the most likely outcome.
If interested, I can give you the related games- mostly ICCF/ IECG/LSS stuff from average. or less than average engine users.

Thanks. Yes, I'd be interested in those corr-games. Please e-mail me a pgn file, if possible (redaktion@kaissiber.de). - I agree that White doesn't have much. But the result in Kaissiber tells us that there are many options for White, which can be tried and explored over the board. For example 9.Nd5 Qg6 10.d3 Qg3+ 11.Kd2 Nb4 12.Kc3 (Maurits Wind). In corr chess it will probably lead to a draw, but not more. And Black can certainly go wrong. So this opening looks very much like any other opening.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #105 - 02/19/14 at 16:30:00
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Thanks Stefan! I'll have a look at your 11.Qd2N in a few days.

Nice to see some new ideas for White at last! Smiley
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #104 - 02/19/14 at 12:14:23
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/19/14 at 11:57:01:
PANFR wrote on 02/19/14 at 11:52:43:
I was not aware of the Kaissiber article, since I have never subscribed to it- I just have quite a few of your books/ pamphlets published in the 80s-90s, when I was playing more regularly.
I noticed this flaw when reading Sakaev's Petroff book, dealing with the same variation, and also concluding that the position is a forced draw- apparently wrongly.
Yet, the mainline in Sakaev's book is equal, although Black has all the fun there is in the position (IMHO not much, just a very,very slight positional edge, which is extremely hard to materialize).

Thanks for the hint, so it seems I have to buy the Sakaev book. Does he cover the strongest move 9.d4? This is a line where I'd really prefer to be White.


No, factly he doesn't mention the move at all.
I had a brief look at 9.d4 sometime ago, and I concluded that it' equal- but I did not attempt any serious analysis, and the existing games on it (I have 25 of them, mostly from correspondence chess, although with little involvement of really good correspondence players) suggest that a draw is the most likely outcome.
If interested, I can give you the related games- mostly ICCF/ IECG/LSS stuff from average. or less than average engine users.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #103 - 02/19/14 at 11:57:01
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PANFR wrote on 02/19/14 at 11:52:43:
I was not aware of the Kaissiber article, since I have never subscribed to it- I just have quite a few of your books/ pamphlets published in the 80s-90s, when I was playing more regularly.
I noticed this flaw when reading Sakaev's Petroff book, dealing with the same variation, and also concluding that the position is a forced draw- apparently wrongly.
Yet, the mainline in Sakaev's book is equal, although Black has all the fun there is in the position (IMHO not much, just a very,very slight positional edge, which is extremely hard to materialize).

Thanks for the hint, so it seems I have to buy the Sakaev book. Does he cover the strongest move 9.d4? This is a line where I'd really prefer to be White.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #102 - 02/19/14 at 11:52:43
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I was not aware of the Kaissiber article, since I have never subscribed to it- I just have quite a few of your books/ pamphlets published in the 80s-90s, when I was playing more regularly.
I noticed this flaw when reading Sakaev's Petroff book, dealing with the same variation, and also concluding that the position is a forced draw- apparently wrongly.
Yet, the mainline in Sakaev's book is equal, although Black has all the fun there is in the position (IMHO not much, just a very,very slight positional edge, which is extremely hard to materialize).
Regarding the Bishop's gambit, I am still quite satisfied as Black with 3...d5! - also equal, but Black has all the fun (again).
The Nc3 lines in Shaw's book are very interesting, but they are also borderline refutable- which means I have not found any refutation, but I do think Black should have something against them.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #101 - 02/19/14 at 11:39:42
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TalJechin wrote on 07/27/13 at 09:49:59:
As for 3...Nc6 I thought White's activity would compensate for the extra pawn islands. Though nowadays Black seems to score a huge percent in this variation - although a couple of corr games still seem like a road to rough equality, but nowadays White seems to be the one avoiding these, maybe for a reason...?



Your analysis in The Fascinating King's Gambit still holds in my opinion. But instead of 11.Ng3?, White should play 11.Qd2! intending 11...0-0 12.Qg5. When the queens are exchanged, there is not the slightest reason why Black's fewer pawn islands should be a factor. White's center may well be more important. A refutation of the King's Bishop Gambit this Black line is certainly not.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #100 - 02/19/14 at 11:25:11
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PANFR wrote on 11/09/13 at 01:13:45:
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. h4 g4 5. Ne5 d6 6. Nxg4 Nf6 7. Nxf6+ Qxf6 8. Nc3 Nc6 9. Nd5 Qg6 10. d3 Nb4 11. Nxc7+ Kd8 12. Nxa8 Qg3+ 13. Kd2 Qe3+ 14. Kc3 Qc5+ 15. Kd2

He mentions this position as equal, while the truth is that white is in deep trouble after 15...Rg8 (most probably losing by force). [...]

You are right. Same error in Kaissiber #32 (2008), p. 36: "12. Nc7+ Kd8 13.Nxa8 Qe3+ ist sofort Remis." After your recommendation 15...Rg8, a modern engine like Stockfish DD has no trouble finding 16.c4 Rg3 17.Ke1 Bg4 18.d4 Qc6 19.Qd2 Qxe4+ 20.Kf2 Nd3+ 21.Kg1 Ne1! 22.Kh2 Bg7! -+ and the myriad of other complex tactical variations necessary to force a win for Black.

Kaissiber #32 appeared in 2008, the engine used for the analysis was Rybka 2.3.2a, run on my old Pentium PC. Still, I think a human should indeed understand that Black is better in spite of the fact that he is a rook behind. So yes, mea culpa. Shaw has just quoted older analysis, without crediting.

A better excuse is that 12. Nxc7+ was "at least" a draw, so it was obviously worse than 12.Qf3 which I looked at in more detail. By the way: the recommended main line in Kais. 32 was Maurits Wind's idea 12. Kc3!?, a move ignored by Shaw. And, not to forget, Kaissiber #32 advised against 9. Nd5. Our choice was 9.d4!. - On p. 114 of his work John Shaw writes:

Quote:
This line [9.d4] could be dubbed the Bücker variation as the German analyst has published a lot of analysis about it. I believe the man himself called it the "Triumphlager" variation, but I can't see that catching on.

Shaw is wrong, I never proposed such a name for 9.d4. The article published in Kais. 32 was titled "Am Triumphlager des Königsgambits", using a term coined by Tartakower: he joked that Spielmann's article "Am Krankenlager des Königsgambits" would have better been titled "Triumphlager", because Spielmann presented mainly his wins with the gambit.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #99 - 11/09/13 at 01:13:45
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1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. h4 g4 5. Ne5 d6 6. Nxg4 Nf6 7. Nxf6+ Qxf6 8.
Nc3 Nc6 9. Nd5 Qg6 10. d3 Nb4 11. Nxc7+ Kd8 12. Nxa8 Qg3+ 13. Kd2 Qe3+ 14. Kc3
Qc5+ 15. Kd2

He mentions this position as equal, while the truth is that white is in deep trouble after 15...Rg8 (most probably losing by force).

Typical case of an engine misjudgement, I guess there are more like that in the book.

In any case, my most sincere respect to the author of the book, for spending so much effort and energy to such a sub-par opening.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #98 - 09/27/13 at 15:02:23
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Smiley ooops. my sincere apologies. wow, that was embarrasing...
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #97 - 09/27/13 at 06:23:34
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And he is named 'Smerdon'.
With no extra vowels.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #96 - 09/27/13 at 06:22:20
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Schwebbz wrote on 09/27/13 at 04:38:23:
Smeardon also says the Adelaide isn't covered. It is, on pages 645-653. Not hard to find at all, it's right there in the variation index. The chapter title 'second move alternatives' is also a clue. It seems to me Smeardon is blaming Shaw for his own reading difficulties.

Good grief.
Idiot. Rude idiot.
"Of course, I think it’s a shame that the Australian connection is left out, but it’s nice to see the line getting some reasonable coverage as it is certainly far better than first meets the eye."

I blame you for your own reading difficulties.

It is there, but not named such.

Oh, irony, smite this contributor in the face with a hot iron.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #95 - 09/26/13 at 03:35:09
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I happen to own Who's afraid of the King's Gambit, but as I only recently came home from a holiday in The Netherlands I only now can comment.



looks a bit better for White to me.
So this is not what puts me off. Shaw's treatment of 6...Nf6 is.
I took the time to brows through Shaw's book. It looks very, very good. The only reason I didn't buy it is that it just confirms the conclusions I arrived at five years ago or more:

1. White has nothing, not even imbalanced equality after 5...d6 and 6...Nf6 in the Kieseritzky.
2. If White plays g2-g3 in the Hanstein Black typically should reply with Alapin's ...Bh3.
3. The plan with Qa4 and b4 in the Hanstein is not promising either, despite FM Bücker's laudible efforts.
4. So what remains is the Quaade Gambit 4.Nc3.
5. Black's best against the Bishop's Gambit is 3...Nc6.

I rather disagree with GM's Smerdon's review. From glancing it immediately became clear to me that Shaw actually doesn't recommend the Kieseritzky, but rather the Quaade.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #94 - 09/25/13 at 14:20:53
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #93 - 09/03/13 at 15:51:45
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Schwebbz wrote on 09/03/13 at 15:28:34:
That would depend on what your standards for 'juicy' is. The coverage isn't extensive: He annotates Schlecter-Teichmann, Vienna 1903. Seven novelties in the annotations. He quotes you twice, too. A little over 4 pages total. Looks good to me, though I haven't gotten around to examining the game in detail yet.


Thanks, good to know!

It is a bit surprising that he doesn't give 6...Be7 for Black in the Kieseritzky, but I'd assume that he doesn't recommend it for White and thus doesn't want to get bogged down with every equalising line for Black.

But if the book is intended for both sides, then I'd imagine that 6...Be7 could offer Black better chances for the full point than 6...Nf6 - but it's at least a decade since I looked at the Kieseritzky so there might no longer be a need for another alternative for Black...
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #92 - 09/03/13 at 15:28:34
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That would depend on what your standards for 'juicy' is. The coverage isn't extensive: He annotates Schlecter-Teichmann, Vienna 1903. Seven novelties in the annotations. He quotes you twice, too. A little over 4 pages total. Looks good to me, though I haven't gotten around to examining the game in detail yet.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #91 - 09/03/13 at 11:57:33
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Btw, has Shaw found anything juicy for White after 2...exf4 3.Nf3 f5 ?

It's one of those lines that KG-players may go for when on the other side of the board. And I think it was recommended for Black in one of the early SOS books too.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #90 - 09/02/13 at 21:59:32
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This line is recommended by Eric Schiller in "Who's Afraid of the King's Gambit? (3rd edition)". I kid you not: search on amazon, "look inside" the book, and BAM!

This actually looks like a decent line, so I find this all somewhat amusing.

blueguitar322 wrote on 08/14/13 at 15:55:42:
Also just got the book and enjoying it so far, even if I feel like White is still fighting uphill vs 3...g5 and 3...d5.

One question: in the Kieseritzky 5...d6 line, Shaw mentions that he only wants to consider 6...Nf6.  However I have some notes on 6...Be7 (forget if they were from ChessPub, they aren't original analysis), which scores very poorly for White in databases. Am I missing anything? Did Shaw have a good reason to ignore 6...Be7?


  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #89 - 08/22/13 at 19:11:01
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flaviddude wrote on 10/22/08 at 02:30:45:
The Kings' Gambit is a very complex opening. The repertoire books are good and white needs to know how to answer their recommendations.

The positions that arise are quite different to other openings and difficult to play for both players. Furthermore the opening is still developing. Look at the articles by Stefan Bucker at Chess Cafe or the article in the latest Kaissiber.

I am getting on in years and my over the board ability is falling. Nevertheless I use the King's Gambit in correspondence.  Over the board I would not hesitate to use the King's Gambit against significantly higher rated steady positional players who would expect to beat me. The fact that I know a good deal about the opening has a deterrant effect on my opponents. An Australian called Trevor hay wrote a book on the King's Gambit. For years after wards almost no-one played 1.e5 after his 1.e4. The same thing is happening to me.  

  A    further point is that you need good endgame technique to play the Kings Gambit as white.  



How true!!!
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #88 - 08/15/13 at 19:40:51
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How could he miss Qh2??

Lord Almighty, somebody put him on suicide watch if he loses the tiebreak Wink (not serious, we all know Kamsky's a fighter at the bone)
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #87 - 08/15/13 at 19:02:16
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TCH wrote on 08/15/13 at 18:40:19:
Breaking News: 2. f4 refutes 1...e5.

Absolutely sensational.



wow... how did kamsky miss 29. ... rxf3 + ?  he must have been really rattled after surviving the minefield he built for himself

i think games like this which highlight the psychological side of chess are far more entertaining and fun to watch then the 'quest for truth' games that cc proponents and centaurs produce

gm blunderest fun  !!   Cheesy
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #86 - 08/15/13 at 18:40:19
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Breaking News: 2. f4 refutes 1...e5.

Absolutely sensational.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #85 - 08/15/13 at 17:30:23
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barnaby wrote on 08/15/13 at 17:23:37:
tony37 wrote on 08/15/13 at 17:22:51:
tony37 wrote on 08/15/13 at 14:07:33:
Shimanov is right now playing a King's gambit against Kamsky
see http://chessworldcup2013.com/live (board 8)

seems like first white was winning, then black, then white, and now black


more than seems .... black was busted!

quite the houdini* escape by mr kamsky


* pun NOT intended and no accusation meant .... i realized after posting that idiom probably is a bit too layered here

Smiley


Good (unintended) joke. Kamsky however is tying himself up again. Better for white at the moment!
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #84 - 08/15/13 at 17:23:37
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tony37 wrote on 08/15/13 at 17:22:51:
tony37 wrote on 08/15/13 at 14:07:33:
Shimanov is right now playing a King's gambit against Kamsky
see http://chessworldcup2013.com/live (board 8)

seems like first white was winning, then black, then white, and now black


more than seems .... black was busted!

quite the houdini* escape by mr kamsky


* pun NOT intended and no accusation meant .... i realized after posting that idiom probably is a bit too layered here

Smiley
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #83 - 08/15/13 at 17:22:51
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tony37 wrote on 08/15/13 at 14:07:33:
Shimanov is right now playing a King's gambit against Kamsky
see http://chessworldcup2013.com/live (board 8)

seems like first white was winning, then black, then white, and now black
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #82 - 08/15/13 at 14:51:09
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BreakThru wrote on 08/15/13 at 14:14:39:
tony37 wrote on 08/15/13 at 14:07:33:
Shimanov is right now playing a King's gambit against Kamsky
see http://chessworldcup2013.com/live (board 8)


Thanks for mentioning! A big surprise to Kamsky it seems, already spending more than ten minutes after 2.f4.


kamsky is apparently not a member here and does not seem to know these lines


Wink
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #81 - 08/15/13 at 14:25:04
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I guess he'll play something not so exciting because he only needs a draw
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #80 - 08/15/13 at 14:14:39
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tony37 wrote on 08/15/13 at 14:07:33:
Shimanov is right now playing a King's gambit against Kamsky
see http://chessworldcup2013.com/live (board 8)


Thanks for mentioning! A big surprise to Kamsky it seems, already spending more than ten minutes after 2.f4.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #79 - 08/15/13 at 14:07:33
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Shimanov is right now playing a King's gambit against Kamsky
see http://chessworldcup2013.com/live (board 8)
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #78 - 08/15/13 at 13:56:05
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[/quote]
Shaw mentions that Sakaev gives this line, and that he only considers 8.Bc4.  Shaw recommends 8.d5!?  After three pages of analysis, he concludes "still a mess but White has the easier practical task."
[/quote]

Yes, indeed. A pity he didn't give additional analysis and or typical plans for white in this double-edged position. Usually he does this very well, but here it is somewhat too open ended for my taste. I think it is definately playable, but it requires soms home-analysis too I think.    
The alternative at move 9 also deserves attention as it might be easier to play. Position remains about equal, but dynamic. If blackplayers follow Sakaev's advice, then they will be surprised by 8.d5!? Surprisevalue and preparation is also something to take into account in these kind of complex positions.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #77 - 08/15/13 at 12:46:14
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TopNotch wrote on 08/15/13 at 04:45:55:
I was recently browsing through The Petroff - An Expert Repertoire for Black by Konstantin Sakaev (2011) in it he analyses the Quaade variation and concludes that black is better and it is White who must search for salvation.

Sakaev uses the game Zvjaginsev - Smirnov to illustrate his analysis, the key line centering around 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.g3 g4 6.Nh4 f3 7.d4 Bb4!. His analysis seems convincing, so I am eager to comapre it with what Shaw has found when I get my hands on his book.

Tops Smiley

Shaw mentions that Sakaev gives this line, and that he only considers 8.Bc4.  Shaw recommends 8.d5!?  After three pages of analysis, he concludes "still a mess but White has the easier practical task."
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #76 - 08/15/13 at 12:16:39
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 08/15/13 at 08:56:23:
barnaby wrote on 08/14/13 at 21:03:51:
i still think the best chance for a black advantage against best possible moves from white may lie in the modern defense ( 1. e4 e5 2. f4 d5 3. ed ef) while also avoiding any of the edgier lines in which white can play for at least some decent otb complications


Black has no hope of any advantage in this line. But, as you say, it avoids all White's tricks and makes it a good practical choice over the board.


I have to agree with that. The modern line might well be the safest choice for black. There are no revolutionary new ideas in this line, but with a bit of preparation it's still possible to surprise the second player. Objectively the chances are balanced though and the resulting positions are more positional than most lines in the KG.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #75 - 08/15/13 at 12:09:38
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TopNotch wrote on 08/15/13 at 04:45:55:
I was recently browsing through The Petroff - An Expert Repertoire for Black by Konstantin Sakaev (2011) in it he analyses the Quaade variation and concludes that black is better and it is White who must search for salvation.

Sakaev uses the game Zvjaginsev - Smirnov to illustrate his analysis, the key line centering around 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.g3 g4 6.Nh4 f3 7.d4 Bb4!. His analysis seems convincing, so I am eager to comapre it with what Shaw has found when I get my hands on his book.

Tops Smiley


Shaw mentions Sakaev's work or course. According to Shaw however Sakaev only analyses 8.Bc4 (I can't check that myself because I don't own Sakaev's book). Shaw introduces the novelty 8.d5!?, after which, according to his analysis, black's best move is the less than obvious 8...Qe7.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #74 - 08/15/13 at 12:03:45
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Bump. To remove the sloughter/sf dross for a time anyhow, talk about an opening text and theory.
Good book, great fun so far.
Impressive coverage of KG Declined, a line I know well.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #73 - 08/15/13 at 08:56:23
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barnaby wrote on 08/14/13 at 21:03:51:
i still think the best chance for a black advantage against best possible moves from white may lie in the modern defense ( 1. e4 e5 2. f4 d5 3. ed ef) while also avoiding any of the edgier lines in which white can play for at least some decent otb complications


Black has no hope of any advantage in this line. But, as you say, it avoids all White's tricks and makes it a good practical choice over the board.
  

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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #72 - 08/15/13 at 04:45:55
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I was recently browsing through The Petroff - An Expert Repertoire for Black by Konstantin Sakaev (2011) in it he analyses the Quaade variation and concludes that black is better and it is White who must search for salvation.

Sakaev uses the game Zvjaginsev - Smirnov to illustrate his analysis, the key line centering around 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.g3 g4 6.Nh4 f3 7.d4 Bb4!. His analysis seems convincing, so I am eager to comapre it with what Shaw has found when I get my hands on his book.

Tops Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #71 - 08/14/13 at 21:11:14
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tony37 wrote on 08/14/13 at 20:49:53:
well, of course black has equality against the King's gambit, the real question is: does he have an advantage?
which I think would be somewhere after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Nf6 6.Bc4 d5 7.exd5 Bd6 8.d4 Nh5


It's not so simple. I don't know how you get to the conclusion that after 8...Nh5 black might have an advantage? In Shaw's book this line is analyzed pretty extensively with lines far past move twenty. I haven't found a line in which black is better yet, and given the complexity of the lines I pity the blackplayer in advance. You won't be able to find all the solutions calculating at the board. Preparation is necessary.

However, as I mentioned above Shaw claims that black can equalize easily after 5...d6!. If he is right about that, then all the time invested in analyzing 5...Nf6 could be a waste.
That's why he proposes 4.Nc3 after 3...g5. Allthough I agree with you that with correct play the chances are balanced, most of the time positions arise with a lot of dynamics. I have been testing the KG on the ICC and I can say that even IM's are not very knowledgeable of the KG-lines and often go wrong. Especially 4.Nc3 has surprisevalue. Admittedly, it's only G5 blitz, but still. I am used to play the Scotch but I am considering to give the KG a try in OTB.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #70 - 08/14/13 at 21:03:51
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tony37 wrote on 08/14/13 at 20:49:53:
well, of course black has equality against the King's gambit, the real question is: does he have an advantage?
which I think would be somewhere after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Nf6 6.Bc4 d5 7.exd5 Bd6 8.d4 Nh5


interestingly shaw advises against the move 4.h4 and suggests the quaade style mentioned previously in this thread

i still think the best chance for a black advantage against best possible moves from white may lie in the modern defense ( 1. e4 e5 2. f4 d5 3. ed ef) while also avoiding any of the edgier lines in which white can play for at least some decent otb complications


  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #69 - 08/14/13 at 20:49:53
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well, of course black has equality against the King's gambit, the real question is: does he have an advantage?
which I think would be somewhere after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Nf6 6.Bc4 d5 7.exd5 Bd6 8.d4 Nh5
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #68 - 08/14/13 at 16:41:21
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MartinC wrote on 08/14/13 at 16:04:48:
Showing Nf6 to be solidly = would normally be taken as sufficient reason not to look for something even better for black. That's hardly precisely what white is after Smiley

That sort of feeling of white fighting uphill is why I'm not convinced by it.


I think your right about the reason for only choosing to analyze Nf6. Easy equality for black is not what white wants. That's why Shaw proposes 4.Nc3 as an alternative. With regard to 3...d5, I don't believe white is any worse. If black plays correctly chances are balanced I think. But there are plenty of ways in which black can go wrong.

Up till now I have been testing Shaw's suggestions in blitz play with good results (even against a few IM's). Most of my opponents have no clue what to do. In the 3...g5 variation most players know the theory after 4.h4, but 4.Nc3 comes as a surprise.
Of course it would be different in OTB games, but most KG-positions are so complex it's hard to calculate everything during the game. While it is still seldomly played (might well change!) most black players won't be well prepared. 
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #67 - 08/14/13 at 16:04:48
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Showing Nf6 to be solidly = would normally be taken as sufficient reason not to look for something even better for black. That's hardly precisely what white is after Smiley

That sort of feeling of white fighting uphill is why I'm not convinced by it.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #66 - 08/14/13 at 15:55:42
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Also just got the book and enjoying it so far, even if I feel like White is still fighting uphill vs 3...g5 and 3...d5.

One question: in the Kieseritzky 5...d6 line, Shaw mentions that he only wants to consider 6...Nf6.  However I have some notes on 6...Be7 (forget if they were from ChessPub, they aren't original analysis), which scores very poorly for White in databases. Am I missing anything? Did Shaw have a good reason to ignore 6...Be7?

  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #65 - 08/13/13 at 23:01:51
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BreakThru wrote on 08/13/13 at 18:44:16:
TCH wrote on 08/13/13 at 13:45:09:
BreakThru wrote on 08/02/13 at 14:53:23:
zen_learner wrote on 07/27/13 at 13:20:14:
Unfortunately, it was short lived. There is a serious dead end.

Worse than the Berlin. Pity of such effort (his previous book on the Spanish was good, as it was Emms').

The game is Zviangitsev-Smirnov. Deviations as white lead to a worse position. Uff.



Unjustified criticism in my opinion. Let me give you some background information. In Shaw's book the variation 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 is analysed pretty extensively. The main focus is on 4.h4. This is still a very viable way of playing for white, however Shaw notes that Black can equalize after 4...g5 5.Ne5 d6!
There is a very important exception however not mentioned by Zen_learner in his fatalism. At move 14 Shaw suggests the novelty 14.Dd3!?


Thanks for the post but both 4...g5 and 14...Dd3 are illegal moves. I'll stick to 2.Nf3 for now.


Thanks for the reply. 4...g5 is of course just a typo - which should be obvious (4...g4). 14...Qd3 is indeed an illegal move, but I wrote 14.Qd3. Oh, now I see what you mean. I am dutch and we use a 'D' in our chessnotation to denote the queen. Just a mistake on my part - I mean Qd3 of course. I don't understand why you would conclude to remain playing 2.Nf3 after reading my post?!


haha, I'm kidding. Your post was excellent.

First of all, the mainline is completely playable and 14.Qd3 is a wonderful alternative. I actually just got the book Smiley

Peace out, man, and enjoy the World Cup.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #64 - 08/13/13 at 18:50:57
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MartinC wrote on 08/13/13 at 14:13:02:
4 .. g4 that would be. Sticking to 2 Nf3 may well be sense though Smiley
(On an aside, any Surtees watchers could do worse than look at his games in the recent British championship. Very different and mostly interesting.).


I play 2.Nf3 as well, mostly the Scotch for that matter. I have been testing the KG on the ICC however for the last couple of weeks with great results against strong opposition. I might give it a shot in OTB as well. You are not convinced by the KG?
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #63 - 08/13/13 at 18:44:16
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TCH wrote on 08/13/13 at 13:45:09:
BreakThru wrote on 08/02/13 at 14:53:23:
zen_learner wrote on 07/27/13 at 13:20:14:
Unfortunately, it was short lived. There is a serious dead end.

Worse than the Berlin. Pity of such effort (his previous book on the Spanish was good, as it was Emms').

The game is Zviangitsev-Smirnov. Deviations as white lead to a worse position. Uff.



Unjustified criticism in my opinion. Let me give you some background information. In Shaw's book the variation 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 is analysed pretty extensively. The main focus is on 4.h4. This is still a very viable way of playing for white, however Shaw notes that Black can equalize after 4...g5 5.Ne5 d6!
There is a very important exception however not mentioned by Zen_learner in his fatalism. At move 14 Shaw suggests the novelty 14.Dd3!?


Thanks for the post but both 4...g5 and 14...Dd3 are illegal moves. I'll stick to 2.Nf3 for now.


Thanks for the reply. 4...g5 is of course just a typo - which should be obvious (4...g4). 14...Qd3 is indeed an illegal move, but I wrote 14.Qd3. Oh, now I see what you mean. I am dutch and we use a 'D' in our chessnotation to denote the queen. Just a mistake on my part - I mean Qd3 of course. I don't understand why you would conclude to remain playing 2.Nf3 after reading my post?!
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #62 - 08/13/13 at 14:13:02
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4 .. g4 that would be. Sticking to 2 Nf3 may well be sense though Smiley
(On an aside, any Surtees watchers could do worse than look at his games in the recent British championship. Very different and mostly interesting.).
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #61 - 08/13/13 at 13:45:09
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BreakThru wrote on 08/02/13 at 14:53:23:
zen_learner wrote on 07/27/13 at 13:20:14:
Unfortunately, it was short lived. There is a serious dead end.

Worse than the Berlin. Pity of such effort (his previous book on the Spanish was good, as it was Emms').

The game is Zviangitsev-Smirnov. Deviations as white lead to a worse position. Uff.



Unjustified criticism in my opinion. Let me give you some background information. In Shaw's book the variation 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 is analysed pretty extensively. The main focus is on 4.h4. This is still a very viable way of playing for white, however Shaw notes that Black can equalize after 4...g5 5.Ne5 d6!
There is a very important exception however not mentioned by Zen_learner in his fatalism. At move 14 Shaw suggests the novelty 14.Dd3!?


Thanks for the post but both 4...g5 and 14...Dd3 are illegal moves. I'll stick to 2.Nf3 for now.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #60 - 08/02/13 at 14:53:23
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zen_learner wrote on 07/27/13 at 13:20:14:
Unfortunately, it was short lived. There is a serious dead end.

Worse than the Berlin. Pity of such effort (his previous book on the Spanish was good, as it was Emms').

The game is Zviangitsev-Smirnov. Deviations as white lead to a worse position. Uff.



Unjustified criticism in my opinion. Let me give you some background information. In Shaw's book the variation 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 is analysed pretty extensively. The main focus is on 4.h4. This is still a very viable way of playing for white, however Shaw notes that Black can equalize after 4...g5 5.Ne5 d6! Of course Shaw's analysis goes further than this, but the conclusion is that black can reach equality in different endgame positions with little dynamics. The variation 5...d6 leads to queen exchanges inevitably.

For this reason Shaw proposes another way of playing the KG, which involves 4.Nc3 and a subsequent g3 (he calls it 'Quaade-style'). For reasons well explained in the book the first six moves in the game mentioned by Zen_learner are the best moves as well as the most optimal move order for both sides (in Shaw's opinion of course). So I agree with Zen_learner that if Black can force a draw here so easily, white should perhaps abandon the Quaade Variation alltogether (note that he can still play 4.h4!). I also agree with him that most alternatives to white's moves lead to an inferior position, as mentioned by Shaw. There is a very important exception however not mentioned by Zen_learner in his fatalism. At move 14 Shaw suggests the novelty 14.Dd3!?

If Black tries to exchange queens with 14...Dd4, then after 15.0-0-0 Qxd3 16.cxd3, white has a small edge in the endgame (better pawn structure in the centre). If black keeps the queens on the board with 14...Bh6 for example, then after 15.0-0 and a subsequent Kh1 the position is unclear according to Shaw. I prefer white however, typical KG-play over the f-file and the knight can be rerouted to d4 for example.

To conclude, Shaw does try to improve on the 'critical game' and succeeds in my opinion. Besides there are all kinds of ways Black can go wrong and simply remembering a string of moves won't save him.

You all should decide for yourself whether you think the Quaade variation Shaw advocates would give you enough to play for. One of the themes of the book is that the KG doesn't all come down to 'onedimensional hacking', but that white should strive to small endgame advantages of applicable.

I like Shaw's book a lot, it is full with analysis, ideas and novelties for both sides. Some of his ideas are untested, but that's all the more interesting for the KG adepts to test. 

  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #59 - 07/27/13 at 14:40:11
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zen_learner wrote on 07/27/13 at 13:20:14:
Unfortunately, it was short lived. There is a serious dead end.

Worse than the Berlin. Pity of such effort (his previous book on the Spanish was good, as it was Emms').

The game is Zviangitsev-Smirnov. Deviations as white lead to a worse position. Uff.



OK. Back to Spanish/Italian/Scotch...



Can you help people understand, with reference to the book (without quoting too much, a delicate balance) why this is 'a dead end'?
What is the context for this? This may help others join the discussion.
Thanks
B
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #58 - 07/27/13 at 13:20:14
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Unfortunately, it was short lived. There is a serious dead end.

Worse than the Berlin. Pity of such effort (his previous book on the Spanish was good, as it was Emms').

The game is Zviangitsev-Smirnov. Deviations as white lead to a worse position. Uff.



OK. Back to Spanish/Italian/Scotch...

  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #57 - 07/27/13 at 10:06:46
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Surtees is (in)famous for doing all sorts of genuinely unique things in the opening. Mostly to do with some of his theories to do with fixing the pawn structure before starting to develop - 1 e4 c5 2 c3 Nf6 3 f3?! for instance. I suppose that 3 c4 sort of fits that style.

It generally works out OK when he's got white although with black he can get into rather bad trouble at times.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #56 - 07/27/13 at 09:49:59
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Benoniac wrote on 07/27/13 at 00:03:18:
TalJechin wrote on 06/28/13 at 18:11:14:
Ametanoitos wrote on 06/28/13 at 13:18:55:
He uses 35 or so pages to prove it!


Or trying to prove it... If it's 3...Nc6 I already don't believe him.  Grin

Still, one can claim an academic "=+" to justify not dealing with something. A quite recent example is 1.e4 c5 2.f4 which everyone over 2000 would know should be met with 2...d5 and therefore White should play 2.Nc3 and only 3.f4 according to practically all books on the Grand Prix - and yet Sveshnikov is apparently advocating 2.f4 in his new book! Evaluations are re-evaluated all the time...


I would say  that 3...Nc6 is a big challenge to the Bishop gambit.


Well, there are many challenges to the KG... As for 3...Nc6 I thought White's activity would compensate for the extra pawn islands. Though nowadays Black seems to score a huge percent in this variation - although a couple of corr games still seem like a road to rough equality, but nowadays White seems to be the one avoiding these, maybe for a reason...?



@snakebite
Actually Surtees' 3.c4 seems new to me too, I can't find a single game with it in my databases. (However, there a two games with 1.e4 e6 2.c4 e5 3.f4 exf4.)
I assume the plan is to eventually hide the king on c2 if Black's queen checks...? If you have any games with it available feel free to start a new thread on it.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #55 - 07/27/13 at 00:03:18
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TalJechin wrote on 06/28/13 at 18:11:14:
Ametanoitos wrote on 06/28/13 at 13:18:55:
He uses 35 or so pages to prove it!


Or trying to prove it... If it's 3...Nc6 I already don't believe him.  Grin

Still, one can claim an academic "=+" to justify not dealing with something. A quite recent example is 1.e4 c5 2.f4 which everyone over 2000 would know should be met with 2...d5 and therefore White should play 2.Nc3 and only 3.f4 according to practically all books on the Grand Prix - and yet Sveshnikov is apparently advocating 2.f4 in his new book! Evaluations are re-evaluated all the time...


I dont got the book myself. But I would say  that 3...Nc6 is a big challenge to the Bishop gambit. Taljechins book is from 2004, and the engines has gotten very much more powerful since then. Also the QC-team has told the public about their "supercomputer" at their office a while ago, and surely John Shaw has had accsess to this.

So it wouldnt suprise me if Shaw, if not refuted, has  made the Bishop Gambit not appealing for white.

Ben
« Last Edit: 07/27/13 at 09:44:58 by Benoniac »  

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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #54 - 07/26/13 at 23:21:29
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I got the book today, looked at some lines of the Kieseritzky and thought...Uh oh, 680 pages wasted... For the off-beat lines a 2600 gets thrashed recently by a 2500 (black) so things were looking pretty grim indeed until...

Some wonderful variations. Some pretty good discoveries. Whether I'll be able to remember the analysis or risk playing the opening... too soon to tell. But it is very professional, it just goes in unsuspected ways ... It will remain the reference book in years to come.... Wink Wink
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #53 - 07/26/13 at 21:17:29
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The book does look great.  Interestingly I can't find reference to Mike Surtees' line 1 e4 e5  2 f4 exf4  3 c4 which he has even played versus Hebden!
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #52 - 07/26/13 at 14:13:08
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My copy arrived this morning Smiley

Just looking through it for an hour or so, I'm hugely impressed. Clearly loads of work has gone into this. Much respect to the author.
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #51 - 07/20/13 at 19:42:17
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Dum spiro spero. Smiley
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #50 - 06/29/13 at 14:57:13
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Please, try to stay on topic. If you want a discussion on the merits of 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5, take it to the Anti-Sicilians section.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #49 - 06/29/13 at 11:42:34
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1.e4 c5, 2.f4 d5 is NOT =+
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #48 - 06/28/13 at 20:18:35
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TalJechin wrote on 06/28/13 at 18:11:14:
Still, one can claim an academic "=+" to justify not dealing with something. A quite recent example is 1.e4 c5 2.f4 which everyone over 2000 would know should be met with 2...d5 and therefore White should play 2.Nc3 and only 3.f4 according to practically all books on the Grand Prix - and yet Sveshnikov is apparently advocating 2.f4 in his new book! Evaluations are re-evaluated all the time...


And people write books to make a quick buck all the time, too.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #47 - 06/28/13 at 18:11:14
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Ametanoitos wrote on 06/28/13 at 13:18:55:
He uses 35 or so pages to prove it!


Or trying to prove it... If it's 3...Nc6 I already don't believe him.  Grin

Still, one can claim an academic "=+" to justify not dealing with something. A quite recent example is 1.e4 c5 2.f4 which everyone over 2000 would know should be met with 2...d5 and therefore White should play 2.Nc3 and only 3.f4 according to practically all books on the Grand Prix - and yet Sveshnikov is apparently advocating 2.f4 in his new book! Evaluations are re-evaluated all the time...
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #46 - 06/28/13 at 14:16:33
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That's it!?

Cheesy
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #45 - 06/28/13 at 13:18:55
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He uses 35 or so pages to prove it!
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #44 - 06/28/13 at 09:59:45
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Hmm, I wonder if he can prove his "3.Bc4?!" or if it's just his way of avoiding 1200 pages...
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #43 - 06/27/13 at 21:38:57
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It should be noted that Shaw gives much praise to Micawber's notes here in the forum!  Check the acknowledgements in the pdf sample.
  
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Re: C30-C39: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #42 - 06/27/13 at 18:47:59
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at last, the King's Gambit by John Shaw is finished and will (probably) be published on 12 July
a new excerpt can be found here:
http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/ebooks/King%27sGambit-excerpt.pdf
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #41 - 07/27/09 at 07:18:35
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Thx NMb,

Now the game is afoot. After taking a second glance I am prepared to
defend my King ('s gambit) like a true republican:

7.Nc3! <DavidFlude>
7.....Nc6 8.d4,d6    <Micawber>
9.d5 Nxe5 10.Nxe5 dxe5  11.Bb5+ <MNb>
11......., c6!?N 12.dxc6,Bc5+ 13.Kh1,0-0 14.cxb7,Ng3+ <Micawber>
is another fun line.

On a more serious note:
11.Bxg4             (iso Bb5+)
11.......,   Bxg4   (11..Nf6? 12.Bxc8 Qxc8 13.Qe2 +/-)
12.Qxg4, Nf6
13.Qf5  , Bd6


Leads to a rather wild position where both sides have chances.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way MNb:
another fun possibility in your own line is the equally wild
15....Qb6+ (iso 15...Bxf5):
16.Kh1,Bxf5 17.cxb7+,Ke7 18.bxaQ Rxa8 19.Bg5 (threat 20.Ne4+)
when after 19...Be6 20.Bxf6,Kf8
the position seems almost normal
and provide chances for both sides as well.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way MNb:
I do hope that poor John Shaw is following this Forum.
And of course that he has invested in a subscription to the e4e5 area,
so as not to miss the full content of the e4e5 past forum contributions and the 2009 King's Gambit Survey of yours truly. Smiley
« Last Edit: 07/27/09 at 08:20:05 by micawber »  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #40 - 07/27/09 at 02:52:10
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An interesting sample line involving a temporary queen sac is 9.d5 Nxe5 10.Nxe5 dxe5 11.Bb5+ Bd7 12.Qxg4 Bc5+ 13.Kh1 Nf6 14.Qf5 Bd6 15.Bxf4 c6 16.dxc6 Bxf5 17.c7+ Qd7 18.Bg5 Ne4 19.Rxf5 Nxc3 20.Bxd7+ Kxd7 21.bxc3 Kxc7 22.Rxf7 with some endgame advantage. This is undoubtedly not the last word; the complications are fun.
  

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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #39 - 07/27/09 at 01:04:15
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DavidFlude,

Thx for sharing this game with us.
That is an inspired sacrifice.


1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e5 Nh5 5. Be2 g5 6. O-O g4 7. Nc3!

My first impression is that White has excellent compensation if Black accepts this sac. Rather than "commit suicide"  I think Black should investigate
7.....Nc6 8.d4,d6 with an unclear game.


In your suggestion for the best defense:

7... gxf3 8. Bxf3 Ng7 9. d4 Be7 10. Bxf4 d6  11. Bh6 Nf5 12. Bd5 Nxh6 13. Qh5  Rf8  14. e6 c6 15. exf7+ Kd7 16. Qxh6  Kc7 17.Qxh7
I agree that 17....cxd5 18.Nxd5 is winning for White.
Black should play 17.....Nd7 I think, though White's compensation is
no longer in doubt.
  
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another new line
Reply #38 - 07/26/09 at 09:51:58
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As the book is not yet ready the following game may be useful. I have already sent it to Kaissiber.
  

FludeAm.pgn ( 4 KB | 118 Downloads )

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #37 - 07/14/09 at 03:19:23
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micawber wrote on 07/13/09 at 08:55:57:
I think that White can claim an advantage after 9.Bd3! +/=.

Not only you think this - so does Thomas Johansson in The FKG.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #36 - 07/13/09 at 08:55:57
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According to the new Quality Chess catalogue, the book is still planned.
The expected publication date has been moved to December 2009.
So we have to exercise patience a little longer.
In the meantime a relatively recent game

[Event "Ch France (team) 2009"]
[Site "France"]
[Date "2009.03.21"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Shirazi Kamran (FRA)"]
[Black "Jakovenko Dmitry (RUS)"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C36"]
[WhiteElo "2410"]
[BlackElo "2760"]
[Annotator Micawber]


1. e4 e5 2. f4 d5 3. exd5 exf4 4. Nf3 Bd6 5. d4 Ne7!?
(5... c6 is the most solid reply I think; But if you out-rate your opponent by 300 ELO points, you probably arent interested in solid continuations.)
6. c4 c5
( White is a little better after 6... Ng6 7. Bd3 or 6... b6 7. Bd3)
7. b4!
(7. dxc5 Bxc5 8. Bxf4 O-O unclear (Dubois,M (2080)-Chaude de Silans,C (2000)/Nantes 1993)
(7. Nc3 cxd4  8. Nb5 O-O 9. Nxd6 Qxd6 unclear ( Reich,T (2394)-Vogiatzis,D/Fuerth 1999)
7... b6  8. bxc5 bxc5 9. dxc5?
(I think that White can claim an advantage after 9.Bd3! +/=. White's last move will haunt him for the rest of the game, since the open diagonal a7-g1 makes it difficult for White to castle)
9... Bxc5 10. Bxf4 O-O 11. Nc3 Re8 12. Be2 Nf5 =/+


* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Black is allready better here

13. Qc2 Qf6 14. Rd1 Nh4 15. Nxh4 Qxf4 16. Nf3 Bf5 17. Qc1 Be3

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
In the rest of the game, white wasnt able to complete his development

18. Rd2 Nd7 19. Nd1 Rab8 20. Qc3 Nc5 21. Rd4 Bxd4 22. Qxd4 Bd3!

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
(23.Qxf4,Rxe2+ 24.Kf1, Rb1!-+)

23. Nc3 Bxe2! 0-1

(24.Qxf4,Nd3+ 25.Kd2,Rb2++; 24.Nxe2,Rb1+ 25.Kf2, Ne4-+)
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #35 - 05/03/09 at 20:25:22
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Jacob Aagaard wrote on 10/26/08 at 08:53:02:
This book has unfortunately been delayed a bit...

...I expect the book to be out in February, but this is not a promise.

Jacob Aagaard


Well I'm glad I wasn't holding my breath  Tongue
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #34 - 03/28/09 at 02:05:18
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I prefer 3...Nc6 4.d4 g5!?, which is largely neglected in the books.  Play often continues 5.h4 (White could try to transpose to the Pierce Gambit with 5.Nc3 here, but I don't trust White's compensation after 5...g4 6.Bc4 gxf3 7.0-0 Nxd4) 5...g4 6.Ne5 transposing to a line of the Kieseritzky- admittedly not one of Black's most critical responses, but still probably sufficient for interesting and equal play.

I've also had a few players try 6.Ng5 when after 6...h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 play usually transposes to a Hampe-Allgaier Gambit after a subsequent Nc3, and as per analysis on another thread, I assess the resulting positions as unclear/equal.

I don't deny, though, that most theoretically critical remains the immediate 3...g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 (5.Ng5 h6 6.Nxf7, the "pure" Allgaier, is unclear but probably confers an edge to Black) 5...Nf6 or 5...d5.  And the Hanstein Gambit (4.Bc4 Bg7!) has been well covered recently too.
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #33 - 03/28/09 at 01:29:09
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I would not dare to say that I don't need to find out much anymore about the main line defences of the KG. At the other hand I think I have found out enough already to combat irregulars like 3...Bc5 and 3...Nc6 4.d4 d6 with confidence. Moreover there are always the three principles of opening play: develop, control the centre, guard your king. Should be enough.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #32 - 03/27/09 at 22:32:02
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kylemeister wrote on 03/27/09 at 22:19:28:
At the risk of being old-fashioned or something, I don't think you can expect a standard sort of opening book to pay much if any attention to possibilities like 2...ef 3. Nf3 Bc5 or 3...Nc6 4. d4 d6; that's more the province of primers on the order of, say, Michael Basman's "Chess Openings."      


But there is no resource for players who encounters these commonly played lines which are weaker, but not necessarily outright blunders.
That was my point.
I don't need to find out much more about the main line defences - I already have Gallagher's book.  Wink
It seems that Shaw is getting bogged-down with analysis, but perhaps the focus of many of these opening guides is wrong for the reasons I outlined above.
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #31 - 03/27/09 at 22:19:28
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At the risk of being old-fashioned or something, I don't think you can expect a standard sort of opening book to pay much if any attention to possibilities like 2...ef 3. Nf3 Bc5 or 3...Nc6 4. d4 d6; that's more the province of primers on the order of, say, Michael Basman's "Chess Openings."      
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #30 - 03/27/09 at 21:27:30
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I think part of the problem here is that authors like Tait & Shaw get so obsessed with Fritz analysis of the solid lines that they cannot see the woods for the trees.  No doubt the potential authors get depressed with the workload and editing problems of such a complex system.

What most of us want is a straightforward OTB battle manual for the KG, not some obscure but solid line in the classical defence that runs to 5 pages of analysis to move 30.

I'm a lower intermediate and so most of my KG games are well out of book by move 10 anyway.
Many Black players opt for questionable stuff like 2...exf4 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.d4 d6 or 2...exf4 3.Nf3 Bc5 & an overview of these commonly played lines & others would be of more use.
Why are these moves not so good?  What are the thematics of these commonly played positions?
 
Writing a tome with deep analysis for GM quality play seems rather odd to me, since no GM's play this opening with regularity anymore & the only possible people to benefit would be top-end CC players.

Intermediate (& better) club players play the KG regularly, so why not pander to the mass market & dare I say dumb it down a little?

A case of K.I.S.S for these authors, perhaps?
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #29 - 03/03/09 at 19:50:47
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@Markovich
Quote:
One recently popular idea that appears not to work, however, is 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 c6.  After 4.Nc3! exf4 5.Bc4! Qh4+ 6.Kf1 f3 7.d3 fxg2+ 8.Kxg2, the position favors White, I opine.


Markovich I think you are to pessimistic:
(1) I agree that Black is worse in your line after 8....Bg4. However, 8...Nf6 is not exactly refuted (Ivanchuck-Piket, 1997). Piket passed up a good line to exchange into an unclear endgame.
(2) I think that after 5.Bc4 black should answer 5....Nf6:
A) 6.dxc6,Nxc6 7.Nf3,Bc5 gives black sufficient compensation (Vasilevich-K. Lahno, Moscow, 2008)
B) 6.d4,cxd5 transfers into a line of the Bishops Gambit that is perfectly acceptable for Black (Bezold-Almazi, Altensteig, 1993 for example). Black can also contemplate 6...Nxd5.
C) 6.Nf3 transfers to the Modern Defense.

6.d4,Bd6 is less accurate as white can transfer to a position from the modern defense where he has a slight endgame advantage.
« Last Edit: 03/04/09 at 09:15:27 by micawber »  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #28 - 03/03/09 at 19:04:38
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Any news?

When will the book be out???
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #27 - 02/22/09 at 18:31:20
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Hey guys, do you have suggestions or ideas how new book from Quality Chess about KG should look, and what should include?

Perhaps can Mr. Aagaard or Mr. Shaw answer on following questions?

a) which mainlines are recommended
b) is there any positional or endgame introduction
c) how is theory structured
d) do we have quick repertoire scans
e) are there any improvements regarding existing theory
f) will the book match latest oracle by Thomas Johansson "The Fascinating King's Gambit"
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #26 - 02/21/09 at 11:01:47
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If either Shaw's or Tait's KG books come out I will probably buy them & if they're anything like as good as Gallagher's Winning with the King's Gambit then I will recommend them in a forum I use on a site with 250,000 active members.
May help shift a few copies.
Smiley
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #25 - 12/19/08 at 14:10:56
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Jacob Aagaard wrote on 10/26/08 at 08:53:02:
This book has unfortunately been delayed a bit, as other authors have finished books that we are producing. This is the problem of multi-tasking.

John has dedicated most of 2008 to the study of the King's Gambit and I fear that he might have hit the place where he knows too much and have written too little.


I understand how that is

rossia wrote on 11/10/08 at 20:33:03:
King's Gambit is very hard opening to play, much harder is to write a good book about it. Everymanchess has abondoned their project "King's Gambit Uncensored" by Tait.


actually it's not completely dead as a manuscript, but I've been too busy with editing to do much at all on it recently
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #24 - 12/12/08 at 10:46:38
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I wait a whole year for this book, and only recently I sadly witnessed that the delay may be terminal. What a disaster.

Can you assure me Mr. Aagaard that this is not the case? Cry
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #23 - 11/11/08 at 13:04:36
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I think that a strong player could easily crack up over the task of writing a "Play the King's Gambit" repertoire book.  On the one hand, there is an enormous mass of dubious 19th-century theory, ramified and "improved" upon by hordes of latter-day adherents, much of which leads to =+.  Many of these positions are best beheld in a mirror, lest looking at them directly turn one into a raving lunatic: the Rice Gambit or the Double Muzio, for example.  On the other hand, there are several effective modern defenses, including the Modern proper and the Modern Cunningham.  

One recently popular idea that appears not to work, however, is 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 c6.  After 4.Nc3! exf4 5.Bc4! Qh4+ 6.Kf1 f3 7.d3 fxg2+ 8.Kxg2, the position favors White, I opine. E.g. 8...Bg4 9.Qd2.  (It's a transpo to a known position of the Bishop's Gambit, of course.) Another fairly recent idea, 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Qh4+ 3.g3 Qe7 4.Nc3 exf4, I suspect on account of 5.Nf3 d5 6.Kf2! a little-known move that seems to refute Black's conception.  In surprisingly many KGA positions, Kf2 is the right answer to Black's queen on e7.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #22 - 11/10/08 at 20:33:03
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Jacob Aagaard wrote on 10/26/08 at 08:53:02:
John has dedicated most of 2008 to the study of the King's Gambit and I fear that he might have hit the place where he knows too much and have written too little.


This is the truth.

King's Gambit is very hard opening to play, much harder is to write a good book about it. Everymanchess has abondoned their project "King's Gambit Uncensored" by Tait. Not enough stamina?  Undecided Undecided Undecided
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #21 - 11/10/08 at 17:21:29
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Yesterday I had a new look at Johansson's FKG (Bishop KG) and have indeed changed my mind. The opening is certainly playable, and much more than 2.c3 in the Sicilian, if I may say so.

Toppy, abstain.


P.S.: I was also surprised at the number of games still played in 2007-2008 in MegaBase
  

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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #20 - 10/26/08 at 19:53:38
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good thing i don't play KG.
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #19 - 10/26/08 at 19:17:57
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rossia wrote on 10/26/08 at 13:12:37:
We all do hope that all articles from this site about KING'S GAMBIT will be included, or better said, studied during writing a book:

Here is an extensive list with themes and links:

KG convert: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1172299697
Death of King's Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1051657971
Question: King's Gambit - FalkbeerCounterGambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1183146590
KG (starting out by myself): http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1181744601
Bishop's Gambit idea: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1180804929
King's Gambit - Hanstein (3 Nf3 g5 4 Bc4 Bg7): http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1180629571
Starting out with the King's Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1172147953
King's gambit - Estrin and Glazkov book: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1175357469
King's Gambit Declined - Trouble castling!: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1174873250
Help with King's Gambit - Cunningham Defense: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1177291713
Advice on King's Gambit Cunningham defense please: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1175210162
A bust to the Kings gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1173396033
KG: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1174578820
Falkbeer 3...exf4!: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1171277123
King's Gambit line: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1170355343
Help! King`s gambit questions!: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1169261084
A new look at the King's Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1133354340
Sad coverage of the King's gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1160757630
KG Wagenbach Defence 3...h5!?: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152772884
The Fascinating King's Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1105472123/0
KGD: Schlemmer Counter Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152957715
KG - Fischer Defence: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1144000928
King's Gambit 2...Bc5 3.Qh5!?: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1076620899
Hanstein Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1087669402
An early ...f5 against the King's Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1141639151
Simple King Gambit line?: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1148507124
King Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1151064090
King's Gambit - help!!!!!!!!: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1151973610
KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!?: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1150437600
King's Gambit 2.Bc5: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1138227320
Spasskys Kings Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1131841601
KG & QG: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1130689762
King's Gambit Fischer Defence: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1058982490
KG - Fischer Defence, 3.Nf3, etc: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1126198486
Status of Falkbeer counter-gambit ?: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1111825308
McDonald's King's Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1101072198
King's Gambit 2...Nc6 & 3...f5!?: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1045379243
King's Gambit/Modern Var: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1080450197
sources on the king bishop gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1092124676
Rosentreter Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1059304681
Kieseritzky Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1087468719



OMG!!  Shocked

Tops Smiley
  

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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #18 - 10/26/08 at 13:12:37
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We all do hope that all articles from this site about KING'S GAMBIT will be included, or better said, studied during writing a book:

Here is an extensive list with themes and links:

KG convert: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1172299697
Death of King's Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1051657971
Question: King's Gambit - FalkbeerCounterGambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1183146590
KG (starting out by myself): http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1181744601
Bishop's Gambit idea: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1180804929
King's Gambit - Hanstein (3 Nf3 g5 4 Bc4 Bg7): http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1180629571
Starting out with the King's Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1172147953
King's gambit - Estrin and Glazkov book: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1175357469
King's Gambit Declined - Trouble castling!: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1174873250
Help with King's Gambit - Cunningham Defense: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1177291713
Advice on King's Gambit Cunningham defense please: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1175210162
A bust to the Kings gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1173396033
KG: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1174578820
Falkbeer 3...exf4!: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1171277123
King's Gambit line: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1170355343
Help! King`s gambit questions!: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1169261084
A new look at the King's Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1133354340
Sad coverage of the King's gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1160757630
KG Wagenbach Defence 3...h5!?: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152772884
The Fascinating King's Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1105472123/0
KGD: Schlemmer Counter Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152957715
KG - Fischer Defence: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1144000928
King's Gambit 2...Bc5 3.Qh5!?: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1076620899
Hanstein Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1087669402
An early ...f5 against the King's Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1141639151
Simple King Gambit line?: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1148507124
King Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1151064090
King's Gambit - help!!!!!!!!: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1151973610
KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!?: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1150437600
King's Gambit 2.Bc5: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1138227320
Spasskys Kings Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1131841601
KG & QG: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1130689762
King's Gambit Fischer Defence: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1058982490
KG - Fischer Defence, 3.Nf3, etc: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1126198486
Status of Falkbeer counter-gambit ?: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1111825308
McDonald's King's Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1101072198
King's Gambit 2...Nc6 & 3...f5!?: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1045379243
King's Gambit/Modern Var: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1080450197
sources on the king bishop gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1092124676
Rosentreter Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1059304681
Kieseritzky Gambit: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1087468719

  
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Jacob Aagaard
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #17 - 10/26/08 at 08:53:02
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This book has unfortunately been delayed a bit, as other authors have finished books that we are producing. This is the problem of multi-tasking.

John has dedicated most of 2008 to the study of the King's Gambit and I fear that he might have hit the place where he knows too much and have written too little.

I expect the book to be out in February, but this is not a promise.

Jacob Aagaard
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #16 - 10/25/08 at 14:01:43
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I just looked at all the John Shaw King's Gambit games on the Opening master 5,000,000 game database. They were all played between 1992 and 1995. He did not score well. However I did not like some of the lines that he played. Furthermore he is a much stronger player now then he was in 1995.

  

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #15 - 10/25/08 at 13:53:42
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TopNotch wrote on 10/24/08 at 02:15:59:
Personally I'm hoping the King's Gambit becomes a popular guest in current OTB play, particularly among the higher rated set, as this would make my task of playing for a win with either color less of a headache. Wink

Like so many sharp gambits, I think the King's Gambit could work best if used judiciously and in moderation.

Toppy Smiley

You might score more wins with either color but you would have to play really good chess. But isn't that the idea.




  

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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #14 - 10/24/08 at 02:15:59
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I guess the best thing to do now is simply wait for the book to come out, or for those who can't wait could leave a message for John Shaw inquiring as to the format.

Personally I'm hoping the King's Gambit becomes a popular guest in current OTB play, particularly among the higher rated set, as this would make my task of playing for a win with either color less of a headache. Wink

Like so many sharp gambits, I think the King's Gambit could work best if used judiciously and in moderation.

Toppy Smiley



  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #13 - 10/24/08 at 00:41:28
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TopNotch wrote on 10/23/08 at 02:00:51:
I maintain my view that the days of a repertoire book for White with the King's Gambit as the center piece are long gone.

Maybe Quality Chess may prove me wrong, but I seriously doubt it.


I believe that you would require too much knowledge to include a chapter in a repertoire book. You would need a specialist book. For example you would need 20-30 pages to deal with the Falkbeer Counter gambit adequately alone.

TopNotch wrote on 10/23/08 at 02:00:51:
What I expect is an up to date reference book examining the state of current theory without a bias for either side. That said I still expect Black to come out way ahead.



That would be exellent. I do not think that black would come out way ahead. There are a few lines where things look quite unclear to me especially in the Kieseritzy Gambit if white knows what he is doing. However  white looks OK in most other lines of the Knights Gambit. In the bishops Gambit black can hold the position but I do not think that white is in danger of losing.

Nevertheless the King's Gambit is harder to play well that other 1.e4 e5 openings. The resulting middle game positions are often even but very unbalanced.   
  

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #12 - 10/23/08 at 20:44:25
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Well, as I say, there are two repertoire books out there with early d4-gambits in the Italian Game, and 4.d4 against the Two Knights, as their centrepiece (A Startling Chess Repertoire, Chris Baker, and The Italian Gambit System, Acers & Laven).  Objectively those openings are considered easier to equalise against than the KG.  Yet they sold well.
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #11 - 10/23/08 at 02:00:51
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flaviddude wrote on 10/22/08 at 02:30:45:
The Kings' Gambit is a very complex opening. The repertoire books are good and white needs to know how to answer their recommendations.

The positions that arise are quite different to other openings and difficult to play for both players. Furthermore the opening is still developing. Look at the articles by Stefan Bucker at Chess Cafe or the article in the latest Kaissiber.

I am getting on in years and my over the board ability is falling. Nevertheless I use the King's Gambit in correspondence.  Over the board I would not hesitate to use the King's Gambit against significantly higher rated steady positional players who would expect to beat me. The fact that I know a good deal about the opening has a deterrant effect on my opponents. An Australian called Trevor hay wrote a book on the King's Gambit. For years after wards almost no-one played 1.e5 after his 1.e4. The same thing is happening to me.  

  A    further point is that you need good endgame technique to play the Kings Gambit as white.  


The flip side of this argument is that when facing weaker opposition you expect to beat, then this Opening maybe less than desirable.

I maintain my view that the days of a repertoire book for White with the King's Gambit as the center piece are long gone.

Maybe Quality Chess may prove me wrong, but I seriously doubt it.

What I expect is an up to date reference book examining the state of current theory without a bias for either side. That said I still expect Black to come out way ahead.

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #10 - 10/22/08 at 02:30:45
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The Kings' Gambit is a very complex opening. The repertoire books are good and white needs to know how to answer their recommendations.

The positions that arise are quite different to other openings and difficult to play for both players. Furthermore the opening is still developing. Look at the articles by Stefan Bucker at Chess Cafe or the article in the latest Kaissiber.

I am getting on in years and my over the board ability is falling. Nevertheless I use the King's Gambit in correspondence.  Over the board I would not hesitate to use the King's Gambit against significantly higher rated steady positional players who would expect to beat me. The fact that I know a good deal about the opening has a deterrant effect on my opponents. An Australian called Trevor hay wrote a book on the King's Gambit. For years after wards almost no-one played 1.e5 after his 1.e4. The same thing is happening to me.   

   A    further point is that you need good endgame technique to play the Kings Gambit as white.
  

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #9 - 10/20/08 at 06:36:45
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only 1% of chess players become GM. so all others are just amateurs.

As a amateur and ex-club player, but nowdays as scientist and underground chess player, I'm very delighted to slaughter internet chess players on playchess.de server with KIng's Gambit Smiley

  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #8 - 10/20/08 at 02:42:33
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trw wrote on 10/20/08 at 00:16:58:
its not the opening is unsound or refuted or scores badly but its romantic days are dead.


Guess what - this is true for all openings popular between 1800 and 1914. The romantic days for the QGD and the English are over too. So this provides zero information.
« Last Edit: 10/20/08 at 13:42:56 by MNb »  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #7 - 10/20/08 at 00:31:41
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It might be dead at GM level (as indeed may most, if not all, of the alternatives to the traditional Lopez after 1.e4 e5), but I can vouch for the fact that the King's Gambit remains popular- and dangerous!- at club level, and is still occasionally seen even up to lower GM level.  Remember that only a small minority of chessplayers ever approach GM level.

If such a KG book is well written I can see it raising a fair amount of revenue from lower-rated players.  I can think of a number of books on gambits that are even easier to equalise against, e.g. Goring, Danish, Max Lange, Belgrade, Smith-Morra etc, that sold rather well despite the openings being shunned at master level.  Or, for that matter, sub-optimal non-gambit lines like the Four Knights and Ponziani.
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #6 - 10/20/08 at 00:16:58
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MNb wrote on 10/19/08 at 22:04:16:
trw wrote on 10/19/08 at 21:46:02:
rossia seems to have gone crazy for an opening whose romantic days are dead.

Must have been the zillionth time these words are written. Peculiar that it still pops up again and again - and scores well.



its not the opening is unsound or refuted or scores badly but its romantic days are dead.
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #5 - 10/19/08 at 22:04:16
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trw wrote on 10/19/08 at 21:46:02:
rossia seems to have gone crazy for an opening whose romantic days are dead.

Must have been the zillionth time these words are written. Peculiar that it still pops up again and again - and scores well.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #4 - 10/19/08 at 21:46:02
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Fernando Semprun wrote on 10/19/08 at 16:24:43:
TopNotch wrote on 10/18/08 at 15:50:06:
The days for a Kings Gambit repertoire book are long gone, unless its aimed at Black. So this book is likely to be a general treatise on the opening.

Toppy Smiley



Is writing against KG your favourite topic?  Grin


Well the guy is right so its hard to dispute him?

rossia seems to have gone crazy for an opening whose romantic days are dead.
  
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Re: John Shaw: The King's Gambit
Reply #3 - 10/19/08 at 16:24:43
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TopNotch wrote on 10/18/08 at 15:50:06:
The days for a Kings Gambit repertoire book are long gone, unless its aimed at Black. So this book is likely to be a general treatise on the opening.

Toppy