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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) White Repertoire vs. the Sicilian (Read 12993 times)
Matemax
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Re: White Repertoire vs. the Sicilian
Reply #77 - 03/25/09 at 08:06:26
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I'm beginning to understand now why so many amateurs avoid the Open Sicilian as White - to avoid controversial theoretical arguments over the board.

Let's call it fear - but they are wrong, still Black is the one who has to be afraid in the OS.
  
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TN
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Re: White Repertoire vs. the Sicilian
Reply #76 - 03/25/09 at 06:31:10
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ANDREW BRETT wrote on 03/24/09 at 08:24:39:
kylemeister yes you are right - I did mean that.  I would also add that in the Sharpest Sicilian against the bd3 system he recommends taking the pawn on b2 . If he's right then white has not much as bc4 is well met by Qa5 see Leko - Kasparov.  That leaves the mad 8 g4 (Volotkin) which I find hard to believe.

TN's repertoire looks good enough for a professional nut I have a few thoughts on it .Yugoslav  9 bc4 or 9 0-0-0 >?. I don't think his anti-Svesnikov is that strong. Or for that matter Sozin v Schevenginen. The anti-Taimanov line is pretty drawish  - the English attack is the critical line. I wouldn't avoid facing the 4 knights.

I still think this way too much effort for the average player (perhaps not for site members) but would say that one of the key problems is that you may not remember all of this as the chances of getting your line are quite slim.



Thanks for your comments - I agree that the 12.ef5 variation isn't a wise idea for a main-line repertoire. I misinterpreted kylemeister's comments and this influenced my editing to my post - normally I would recommend the Positional Variation for White. Ditto for the Keres. Personally I don't think White has any edge in the English Attack with best play, which is probably why I never tried the English Attack vs. the Taimanov as White in spite of its' popularity of late.

I'm beginning to understand now why so many amateurs avoid the Open Sicilian as White - to avoid controversial theoretical arguments over the board.

  

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MNb
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Re: White Repertoire vs. the Sicilian
Reply #75 - 03/24/09 at 21:24:07
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ANDREW BRETT wrote on 03/24/09 at 08:24:39:
I still think this way too much effort for the average player (perhaps not for site members) but would say that one of the key problems is that you may not remember all of this as the chances of getting your line are quite slim.



It is, I tried it about 25 years ago. Still If I had known then what I know now, I would have continued playing the Open Sicilian. Instead I wasted a lot of time on Anti-Sicilians. So these days I recommend Open Siclian repertoires around less topical lines like 6.Be2, 6.Bc4 or a combination. Sure it will be relatively easy for Black to equalize - but then again, Kasparov was always equal after 6...a6.
Concerning the drawing tendencies of the Taimanov - who wrote again that no opening is drawish beneath 1800 (2000; 2200)?
  

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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: White Repertoire vs. the Sicilian
Reply #74 - 03/24/09 at 08:24:39
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kylemeister yes you are right - I did mean that.  I would also add that in the Sharpest Sicilian against the bd3 system he recommends taking the pawn on b2 . If he's right then white has not much as bc4 is well met by Qa5 see Leko - Kasparov.  That leaves the mad 8 g4 (Volotkin) which I find hard to believe.

TN's repertoire looks good enough for a professional nut I have a few thoughts on it .Yugoslav  9 bc4 or 9 0-0-0 >?. I don't think his anti-Svesnikov is that strong. Or for that matter Sozin v Schevenginen. The anti-Taimanov line is pretty drawish  - the English attack is the critical line. I wouldn't avoid facing the 4 knights.

I still think this way too much effort for the average player (perhaps not for site members) but would say that one of the key problems is that you may not remember all of this as the chances of getting your line are quite slim.

  
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Watsonfox
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Re: White Repertoire vs. the Sicilian
Reply #73 - 03/23/09 at 17:48:34
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Just play the main lines without studying them. At 1650 level your opponents aren't going to know the theory either. Just have fun!! Then go over your games afterwards comparing what happend to experts v the sicilian. You will eventualy learn a lot of theory with minimal work.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: White Repertoire vs. the Sicilian
Reply #72 - 02/24/09 at 20:50:25
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@TN:  Huh?  So the GMs who play various lines besides those (even, God forbid, Daniel Stellwagen playing the 6. f4 Najdorf ...) are playing something that isn't playable up to GM level?  (Incidentally, I suppose you meant Keres instead of Sozin.)      

@Andrew Brett:  Taking on f4 there is surely unusual.  I'm guessing you meant 8. a4 Be7 9. Bd3 0-0 10. 0-0 ef, which has been a main line since the 1980s.
  
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TN
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Re: White Repertoire vs. the Sicilian
Reply #71 - 02/24/09 at 19:42:15
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You are right, most of these f4-lines peter out to equality. However, for a club player (e.g. 1700), this probably isn't overly important.

I would like to clarify that this suggestion was not one for obtaining an advantage, but a thematically-linked Open Sicilian repertoire that would make a club player's transition to the Open Sicilian more smooth.

If the 'best' repertoire for a club player is one that can be played up to Grandmaster/World Championship/Computer Correspondence/Advanced Chess level, then there is no alternative to learning the absolute main lines, e.g:

English Attack vs. Najdorf
Sozin Attack vs. Scheviningen
Yugoslav Attack with 9.Bc4 vs. Dragon
6.Bg5 e6 7.Qd2 vs. Classical Sicilian/Richter-Rauzer
6.Be3 a6 7.Be2 Nf6 8.0-0 vs. 5...Qc7 Taimanov, meeting 8...Bb4 with 9.Na4
6.Nc6 bc6 7.Bd3 vs. 5...a6 Kan
6.Nc6 bc6 7.e5 Nd5 8.Ne4 vs. Four Knights
5.Bd3 vs. the Kan, following with a later c4 in most cases.
Maroczy Bind with 5...Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Nc3 vs. Accelerated Dragon
9.Bf6 gf6 10.Nd5 f5 11.c3 Bg7 12.ef5 vs. Sveshnikov
6.N1c3 vs. Kalashnikov
2...Nf6 3.e5
2...a6 3.c3
2...g6 3.d4 cd4 4.Nd4

There, I fixed up my post.


« Last Edit: 02/24/09 at 22:06:01 by TN »  

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MNb
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Re: White Repertoire vs. the Sicilian
Reply #70 - 02/24/09 at 15:58:22
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Calling the Loewenfisj refuted is too strong, but in that line with ...d5 I would rather have Black. All in all I agree with Andrew Brett - my proposal was/is entirely different. Against the Scheveningen I think 6.Be3 more flexible than 6.f4.
  

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Re: White Repertoire vs. the Sicilian
Reply #69 - 02/24/09 at 14:14:52
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@ MNb: so is the Levenfish refuted?!

@ Andrew Brett:  I recently started playing the Open and don't want to go Back to Closed or other Anti-Sicilians...  As for the Kan, f4 can be played on moves 6, 7 or 8, depending on the variations (see John Emms' book on the Kan)

@ TN and Alumbrado:  time to come to the rescue and defend the f4 system!?

Thank you all for your input Smiley
  

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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: White Repertoire vs. the Sicilian
Reply #68 - 02/24/09 at 12:46:36
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I would suggest that this whole repertoire based on open sicilian is not as good as playing one of the Closed sicilians , bb5 systems or grand prix attack.

Just looking at some ideas suggested: 6 f4 v the Dragon is a weak choice; v najdorf 6..e5 7 nf3 nbd7 8 bd3 ef is a pretty well known equaliser (see Tony K's book for more),
6f4 v Scheveningen is a sound choice
I don't believe 5 f4 v Kan is any good.
  
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MNb
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Re: White Repertoire vs. the Sicilian
Reply #67 - 02/23/09 at 15:19:05
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Last weekend I have looked at the Loewenfisj, just out of curiosity. Even though 6.f4 Bg7 7.e5 should be almost equal White has an amazing score. After 6.f4 Nc6 7.Nf3 (7.Bb5 and 7.Nxc6 have been proven innocent since ages) Bg7 8.Bd3 0-0 9.0-0 lines with ...Qb6+ and ...b5 are interesting. But 9...d5 looks pretty good. After 10.e5 Ng4 the positions resembles the Gurgenidze; the exchange of c5 vs. d4 benefits Black. Any comment?
  

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Re: White Repertoire vs. the Sicilian
Reply #66 - 02/23/09 at 10:30:31
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@TN

TN wrote on 12/17/08 at 06:57:58:
As a final suggestion, an Open Sicilian repertoire with an early f4 merits consideration, e.g:

6.f4 against the Najdorf and Scheviningen
6.f4 against the Dragon
Richter-Rauzer with f4, although MNb's Sozin suggestion seems a better practical choice.
6.f4 against the 5...Qc7 Taimanov and 6.Be3 Nf6 7.f4 against the 5...a6 Taimanov
5.f4 against the Kan


Looks very attractive to me, but where do we go from here?!
In another thread http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1071376576, after 6. f4 alumbrado recommended a third rank set up with Qf3, Be3 and Bd3 for the Najdorf, Scheveningen, Taimanov and Kan.  Would you also play this way?

In the Dragon, 6. f4 is the "trappy" Levenfish, which I suppose it is playable at my level (1900+/-) although it is shunned by the big guys...
I agree with you that against the Classical it is better to play the Sozin with 0-0.

Looking forward to your reply.  If you know of any literature on these lines, please let me know as well.

Thanks Smiley
  

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Re: White Repertoire vs. the Sicilian
Reply #65 - 01/27/09 at 17:39:30
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Agreed on both counts, for some reason I equate sozin with Velimirovic attack stuff, which is of course not always the case.

versus ...e5 in Najdorf the Popovic plan with Nb3 is very positional and probably a better option than Davies Nde2
  
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Re: White Repertoire vs. the Sicilian
Reply #64 - 01/27/09 at 12:02:44
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Well g3 is quite dangerous against the najdorf imo, in particular if black goes 6..e5.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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MNb
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Re: White Repertoire vs. the Sicilian
Reply #63 - 01/27/09 at 10:28:55
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Here I must contradict. The Sozin old-fashioned style, ie with 0-0, is not crazy at all. It's just speedy: an early e4-e5 or f4-f5. What's more, I think it's quite underrated.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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