Latest Updates:
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) NEW BUDAPEST BOOK (Read 69348 times)
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #80 - 08/13/14 at 13:36:23
Post Tools
I think this is the thread that Stefan and others were looking for in the Budapest.

The search function on this site didn't help, so I went to Google and typed "chesspub: Budapest" to get here.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4648
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #79 - 02/18/13 at 21:27:26
Post Tools
I notice that 10. Qd2 was given by Nunn back in NCO as leading to equality (citing Zayats-Gurieli, Kuala Lumpur wom IZ 1990).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #78 - 02/18/13 at 21:16:51
Post Tools
Ender wrote on 02/18/13 at 15:57:04:
In Gareev - Taylor black was ok in the opening. He could tru Bf5 instead of Bg4. He could also played  14..Ned7 and black is quite ok.


I'm not saying that White wins, certainly not out of the opening, just that his play should not be sniffed at. 

I don't think 14...Ned7 is "quite OK," but I agree ...Bf5 was better than ...Bg4 and probably equal.  I wonder why he didn't play it?   In reaction, e3-e4 doesn't look at all strong. 

White, however, could have played 10.Qd2, rather than 10.Qc2.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ender
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 408
Joined: 05/22/06
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #77 - 02/18/13 at 15:57:04
Post Tools
In Gareev - Taylor black was ok in the opening. He could tru Bf5 instead of Bg4. He could also played  14..Ned7 and black is quite ok.
  

2200. Amateur!
Back to top
ICQ  
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #76 - 02/18/13 at 14:45:15
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 02/16/13 at 18:36:17:
Just bumping this back up. Any new analysis/games of the e3 and Nh3?


For a comprehensive exposition of practice, see: https://1nf6.chesstheory.org/p.php?z=pt&a=139083&b=0&c=139083&d=0

An interesting recent game is Gareev - Taylor, Las Vegas 2012 , where Taylor goes down to defeat with his pet antidote.  Some other fairly recent games are Ernst - Swinkels, Amsterdam 2012, Pedersen - Kvamme, Malmoe 2012, and Nikolov - Bartsch, Bad Wiessee 2012.

Analysis I don't know about.  But it's not the sort of thing you analyze very deeply.  Gareev's plan of exchanging Black's c4 knight with Ba3,Bxc5 and then playing with his "extra" kingside pawn (while black had 4 versus 3 on the queenside) was useful to know about, I think.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #75 - 02/16/13 at 18:36:17
Post Tools
Just bumping this back up. Any new analysis/games of the e3 and Nh3?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1382
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #74 - 08/20/11 at 17:19:48
Post Tools
bump.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1382
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #73 - 08/04/11 at 17:33:18
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 08/04/11 at 00:44:17:
[...]I want neither to enter into an analytical dispute about 4.e3, 5.Nh3, which we could no doubt carry on at great length, nor to abandon my belief that it's reasonably good for White. So I will simply note that we disagree and not carry on further here.

I'll say again, though, that I think Taylor's plan is Black's best.

Taylor's plan is sound, yes. Your proposed early Bd2-c3 as a possible reaction also makes sense - studying the 4.e4 Budapest I had a case when g6/Bg7 was very resilient, finally the set-up with Bd2-c3 seemed best. - But I have my experiences with Nh3-f4 in the Leningrad Dutch, and here you don't even have the Bg2. Nh3 scores well in the Budapest, but the surprise effect will eventually run out.


* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

Markovich wrote on 08/01/11 at 02:09:19:
In that other, diagrammed position, it looks to me like White has 4 versus 3 on the kingside; 3 stopping 4 on the queenside; the two bishops; essentially no weaknesses; and all the time in the world to play it out. Maybe a Black with good technique can draw that after 80 moves or so, but I wouldn't want to try it myself. - In the Budapest, Black can almost always say, "See how solid I am?" Big wup.

If White had a Knight on e2, he might have something, but what are you doing with the Be2? To hint at the bishop pair seems simplistic to me. After f3-f4 the Bc6 will be a strong piece. Black's plan f6, Nf7-g5 (-e6) makes things even more difficult for White. Depending from the situation, Black can play on the a-file, exchange rooks, play g7-g5 or play for a break with f5. I'd rather play with Black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #72 - 08/04/11 at 00:44:17
Post Tools
That last is rather long analysis, Stefan, and I respectfully doubt that 7...d5 is any good.  But for the time being I want neither to enter into an analytical dispute about 4.e3, 5.Nh3, which we could no doubt carry on at great length, nor to abandon my belief that it's reasonably good for White. So I will simply note that we disagree and not carry on further here.

I'll say again, though, that I think Taylor's plan is Black's best.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1382
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #71 - 08/02/11 at 15:55:01
Post Tools
Jon Tait's proposal is indeed very inspiring. 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. e3 Nxe5 5. Nh3 d5 6. cxd5 Bxh3 7. gxh3 Bb4+ 8. Nc3 0-0 9. Bg2 Nbd7 10. 0-0 (B. Kohlweyer - T. Lochte, Bad Wiessee 1999), but now the game continuation 10...f5? is wrong, as TN demonstrates. Instead, 10...Ng6!

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

(with ideas like Nh4 and maybe Bc5/d6 and a later f7-f5) gives Black fine play, e.g. 11.e4 Nh4 12.Bf4 Bxc3 13.bxc3 f5 14.f3 Qf6 15.Qd4 Nxg2 16.Kxg2 Qg6+ 17.Kh1 fxe4 18.fxe4 c5 19.Qc4 b5 20.Qe2 Nf6.
But back to Markovich's post:

Quote:
The only time it ever came up in my cc practice was against John Moussesian, a strong U.S. player. As I recall it went 5.Nh3 Bb4+?! 6.Bd2 Bxd2+ 7.Qxd2. The exchage of bishops only helps White.

Even here 7...d5!? is interesting: 8.Qxd5 (not 8.cxd5?? Bxh3 9.gxh3 Nf3+ -+) 8...Qe7! (apparently a novelty)

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

For example: 9.Nc3 c6 10.Qe4 Bxh3 11.gxh3 0-0 12.f4 Qh4+ 13.Ke2 Qh5+ 14.Kd2 Ned7 15.Rg1 Nc5 16.Qg2 Rd8+ 17.Ke1 Ne6 18.Be2 Qa5 19.a3 Qb6! with compensation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #70 - 08/02/11 at 08:24:27
Post Tools
A nice idea, but in the Kohlweyer-Lochte game White seemed better out of the opening. Instead of 13.Bg2, 13.Bd5 Kh8 14.f4 looks quite good, and 11.Qb3 might be even better.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 490
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #69 - 08/02/11 at 05:56:39
Post Tools
How about 5...d5 - ? For instance:

  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #68 - 08/01/11 at 14:34:42
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/01/11 at 13:09:21:
Markovich, do you have any correspondence wins with 5.Nh3 you can share?


The only time it ever came up in my cc practice was against John Moussesian, a strong U.S. player. As I recall it went 5.Nh3 Bb4+?! 6.Bd2 Bxd2+ 7.Qxd2. The exchage of bishops only helps White. What happened then was that Black got castled kingside while I got my KN to d5. Black then forgot about White's plan of f4, f5, f6 (with tempo) which was duly executed and produced Black's early resignation. So it was neither very informative nor very challenging, I'm afraid.

I will say that in club level play, the chance to ram that f-pawn comes up surprisingly often.

I think Black's best defense may be that given by Taylor; ...g6, ...d6 and Nbd7-c5. It's a game of chess.  My latest thinking is that White should play Bd2 just as soon as Black plays ...g6, and Bc3 just as soon as ...Bg7.  Black's dark-square bishop is a better piece than White's in all these lines, so White should try to exchange the two.
« Last Edit: 08/01/11 at 15:54:26 by Markovich »  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #67 - 08/01/11 at 13:09:21
Post Tools
Markovich, do you have any correspondence wins with 5.Nh3 you can share?

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #66 - 08/01/11 at 02:09:19
Post Tools
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/12/11 at 16:06:21:
Markovich wrote on 07/12/11 at 13:10:52:
I think that actually there are a few lines against the Budapest where White has all the fun and Black struggles in a "solid" but lifeless position.  My favorite one is 3...Ng4 4.e3 Nxe5 5.Nh3.  I'm not very impressed by Taylor's 5...g6 antidote to this.  Various people have recommended 5...Ng6, but I think that then White can build up slowly with 6.g3, Bg2, O-O, Nc3, f4 and so on and so forth, and Black must just sit tight and wait for White's kingside expansion. [...]

A Budapest article on my desk (by s.o. else), I contributed to the analysis. After 5.Nh3, Black plays 5...d6 first, and g6 only later. In this case you don't have 6.g3 because of Bg4. You don't get the slightest edge with 5.Nh3.


Sorry, I missed this.

Well Stefan, I admit that my liking for 5.Nh3 is a little bit subjective, but I don't agree that White gets nothing. After 5...d6, White should play 6.Nf4, I would think, the prevention of which was the point of 5...Ng6.

In that other, diagrammed position, it looks to me like White has 4 versus 3 on the kingside; 3 stopping 4 on the queenside; the two bishops; essentially no weaknesses; and all the time in the world to play it out. Maybe a Black with good technique can draw that after 80 moves or so, but I wouldn't want to try it myself.

In the Budapest, Black can almost always say, "See how solid I am?" Big wup.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #65 - 07/30/11 at 15:22:25
Post Tools
Thx, Stefan. I am hoping somebody comes to White's defense here.

I play (and subjectively prefer) the white side. But I just don't see a way to a usable advantage against best play.

I don't see a plan for white apart from the f4 idea you already mentioned. It just doesn't seem sufficient.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1382
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #64 - 07/30/11 at 08:07:22
Post Tools
bump?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1382
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #63 - 07/23/11 at 01:37:52
Post Tools
Semkov wrote on 07/18/11 at 14:27:12:
So you propose 12...a5 (after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Nf3 Bc5 5.e3 0-0 6.Be2 Nc6 7.Nc3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.0-0 d6 10.Na4 Re8 11.b3 Bf5 12.Bb2):
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
This is the lever White needed. This pawn will always be weak there and natural moves should give White nice play. The first response I would think about is 13.Qd2 Ba7 14.Bd4 Bxd4 15.exd4. Whitout ...a5, this position is equal, but now White has a lasting initiative, e.g. 15...Nd7 [15...Nc6 16.Bf3 Qf6 17.Rad1 Be4 18.Bxe4 Rxe4 19.d5 Ne5 20.Nc3] 16.Bf3 c6 17.Rfe1. I do not know about you, but I hate to defend such positions.

I doubt that your proposal 13.Qd2 is better than 13.Qd5. Black equalizes with 13...Qe7, for example:

(a) 14.Bd4 b6.

(b) 14.Nxc5 dxc5 15.Rfd1 b6 16.Qc3 f6 17.Rd2 Nf7 18.Rad1 Ng5 19.Bd3 Be4 with active play, about =.

(c) 14.Rad1 b6, about =.

(d) 14.Rfd1 (probably best) 14...Be4 (now 14...b6? 15.a3 would be risky) 15.Nxc5 (15.Nc3 Bb4) 15...dxc5 16.f3 Bc6 17.e4 a4 18.Bc3 b6

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

This position may be critical. White has the bishop pair and could expand with f3-f4 at an appropriate moment. But Black's position looks sound. Exchanges on the a- or d-file are possible; and he has flexible plans like f6 combined with Nf7-d6 or Nf7-g5-e6-d4. The Chinese water torture has to wait for another day: 19.Qe1 (19.f4 Ng6 20.e5 Nh4 21.Bf1 Nf5 is comfortable for Black; 19.b4 Rad8) 19...f6 20.b4 cxb4 21.Bxb4 Qe6 22.Rd2 Rad8 =.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Semkov
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 72
Location: Sofia
Joined: 12/27/04
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #62 - 07/18/11 at 14:27:12
Post Tools
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/12/11 at 09:05:48:
Semkov wrote on 07/12/11 at 08:19:10:
In the hands of a strong player as Polugayevsky (or as matter of fact, Kiril Georgiev), space advantage in a position without any counterplay is like a Chinese water torture. Very often Black will be squeezed to death. Of course, White should be glad to get such a position - in most "regular" openings he can only dream about that. That explains why the Budapest is unpopular at high level. White has different ways of making Black passively suffer for many moves. 

I was impressed by Kiril Georgiev's book Squeezing the Gambits (Sofia 2010) and his unusual approach, but "space advantage in a position without any [black] counterplay" is an exaggeration. My article www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss57.pdf showed that Black has no real problems when he prefers the solid 10...d6 over the somewhat artificial
10...a5.

So you propose 12...a5 (after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Nf3 Bc5 5.e3 0-0 6.Be2 Nc6 7.Nc3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.0-0 d6 10.Na4 Re8 11.b3 Bf5 12.Bb2):
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
This is the lever White needed. This pawn will always be weak there and natural moves should give White nice play. The first response I would think about is 13.Qd2 Ba7 14.Bd4 Bxd4 15.exd4. Whitout ...a5, this position is equal, but now White has a lasting initiative, e.g. 15...Nd7 [15...Nc6 16.Bf3 Qf6 17.Rad1 Be4 18.Bxe4 Rxe4 19.d5 Ne5 20.Nc3] 16.Bf3 c6 17.Rfe1. I do not know about you, but I hate to defend such positions.

  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1382
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #61 - 07/12/11 at 17:26:33
Post Tools
Your example "follows" my main line after 5.Nh3, until move twelve. After 13.Rad1 Bb7 White could play 14.Nfd5 Re8 =b.

It is like an Englund Gambit which White has treated with too much respect.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #60 - 07/12/11 at 16:58:22
Post Tools
It seems that white's wins are usually when they outrate Black by substantial margins. Here's an example:



Note, I think Black was just about equal before he played 13...Kh8?!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #59 - 07/12/11 at 16:42:14
Post Tools
I'm with Stefan on this one. I've played against the Budapest in several correspondence games lately, and Black's position is almost the definition of solid.

Markovich's claim that white is having all the fun would be correct if White has any realistic chance to win those positions. But in the right hands, the Budapest seems to be a sure-fire draw most of the time. Worry about one round at a time.

I just had to include the following win by white, even though it is a counter-example, because of the name of the Black player. (No, he's no relation to our Markovich):
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1382
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #58 - 07/12/11 at 16:06:21
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 07/12/11 at 13:10:52:
I think that actually there are a few lines against the Budapest where White has all the fun and Black struggles in a "solid" but lifeless position.  My favorite one is 3...Ng4 4.e3 Nxe5 5.Nh3.  I'm not very impressed by Taylor's 5...g6 antidote to this.  Various people have recommended 5...Ng6, but I think that then White can build up slowly with 6.g3, Bg2, O-O, Nc3, f4 and so on and so forth, and Black must just sit tight and wait for White's kingside expansion. [...]

A Budapest article on my desk (by s.o. else), I contributed to the analysis. After 5.Nh3, Black plays 5...d6 first, and g6 only later. In this case you don't have 6.g3 because of Bg4. You don't get the slightest edge with 5.Nh3.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #57 - 07/12/11 at 13:10:52
Post Tools
I think that actually there are a few lines against the Budapest where White has all the fun and Black struggles in a "solid" but lifeless position.  My favorite one is 3...Ng4 4.e3 Nxe5 5.Nh3.  I'm not very impressed by Taylor's 5...g6 antidote to this.  Various people have recommended 5...Ng6, but I think that then White can build up slowly with 6.g3, Bg2, O-O, Nc3, f4 and so on and so forth, and Black must just sit tight and wait for White's kingside expansion.  As in many lines in the Budapest, Black has nothing good to do with his KB, and in this variation, exchanging it with Bb4+ Bd2; Bxd2+ Qxd2 significantly helps White's cause.

4.e4 may be good as well, but cost of that expansion is that Black seems to get more counterplay than in the various more conservative treatments.

As for the Fajarowicz, it's refuted by 4.a3.

Semkov wrote on 07/12/11 at 08:19:10:
In the hands of a strong player as Polugayevsky (or as matter of fact, Kiril Georgiev), space advantage in a position without any counterplay is like a Chinese water torture. Very often Black will be squeezed to death. Of course, White should be glad to get such a position - in most "regular" openings he can only dream about that. That explains why the Budapest is unpopular at high level. White has different ways of making Black passively suffer for many moves. 


Right, and even if you manage to draw, you're exhausted going into the next round.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gwnn
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 472
Joined: 03/21/11
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #56 - 07/12/11 at 10:08:10
Post Tools
at the risk of changing the subject somewhat, I compared Taylor and Moskalenko on the 4 e4 variation and it seems the critical line is

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e5 3 dxe5 Ng4 4 e4 Nxe5 5 f4 Ng6 6 Nf3 Bb4+ 7 Bd2 Qe7

Moskalenko ends here, stating that 7 Bd2 is a mistake because Qe7 wins a pawn (e4 or f4). Moskalenko thinks the only move is 7 Nc3, conceding isolated doubled pawns (not to my taste). Taylor says white has good compensation for the pawn after 8 Nc3 Bxc3 9 Bxc3 Qxe4+ 10 Kf2 0-0 (the second pawn is poisoned either way - he proves this and my engine agrees with him) 11 g3, when white has a big lead in development, Bd3 will come with tempo and the N on g6 is shut out by our g3 pawn. It looks convincing to me, and Houdini. I didn't look at 5 .. Nec6 or 4 .. h5, my opponents never seem to play those moves.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1382
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #55 - 07/12/11 at 09:05:48
Post Tools
Semkov wrote on 07/12/11 at 08:19:10:
In the hands of a strong player as Polugayevsky (or as matter of fact, Kiril Georgiev), space advantage in a position without any counterplay is like a Chinese water torture. Very often Black will be squeezed to death. Of course, White should be glad to get such a position - in most "regular" openings he can only dream about that. That explains why the Budapest is unpopular at high level. White has different ways of making Black passively suffer for many moves. 

I was impressed by Kiril Georgiev's book Squeezing the Gambits (Sofia 2010) and his unusual approach, but "space advantage in a position without any [black] counterplay" is an exaggeration. My article www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss57.pdf showed that Black has no real problems when he prefers the solid 10...d6 over the somewhat artificial 10...a5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Semkov
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 72
Location: Sofia
Joined: 12/27/04
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #54 - 07/12/11 at 08:19:10
Post Tools
In the hands of a strong player as Polugayevsky (or as matter of fact, Kiril Georgiev), space advantage in a position without any counterplay is like a Chinese water torture. Very often Black will be squeezed to death. Of course, White should be glad to get such a position - in most "regular" openings he can only dream about that. That explains why the Budapest is unpopular at high level. White has different ways of making Black passively suffer for many moves.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1710
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #53 - 06/23/11 at 03:50:27
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 06/21/11 at 09:25:22:
Glenn Snow wrote on 06/21/11 at 04:21:00:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/10/11 at 14:28:55:
Kant wrote on 02/09/11 at 22:56:00:
I'm thinking about getting Taylor's Budapest book but have one more question.

In the line we were discussing, 1.d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. de Ng4 4.Nf3 Nc6, what is Taylor's response to 5.Bg5?

Does he follow the Polugaevsky-Nunn game, i.e., 5...Be7 6. Bxe7 Qxe7 7.Nc3 0-0, 8.Nd5, etc.?


yes, but with the opinion that Nunn went wrong on move 12


I know Georgiev in his Squeezing the Gambits book, thinks that White has "lasting pressure" in this position.  Apparently Taylor disagrees and for the record Georgiev quotes Moskalenko as writing, "What was Polugaevsky expecting in this balanced position?"


Taylor claims that Nunn's ...c6 to evict White's d5 knight is a mistake.  He may be right, but I have my doubts about his claim that Black can then just laugh at the outpost knight and go about his business with ...Nc5 and so forth.  I have a hunch that someone such as, oh, Polugaevsky could demonstrate the value of the strong knight. 

However I might have been prepared to give it a go as Black had I not encountered Stigma's seeming refutation of Taylor's key ideas in the main line. 

If the Budapest were adequate, Black could move-order his way around all forms of the QGA, QGD, Nimzo, KID and Grunfeld where White's KN were not on f3.  That observation does as much as anything to convince me that the Budapest must somehow be inadequate.


For the record, Georgiev's main line doesn't include ...c6 but instead ...Nbd7 on it's way to c5 and he still holds White is doing very well.  I don't know but it seems a lot more enjoyable to be White here.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #52 - 06/23/11 at 03:08:32
Post Tools
punter wrote on 06/22/11 at 15:46:50:
Quote:
a) 7. e3 Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 O-O 10. O-O Ng6 11. Bg3 Bd6 12. Bxd6 Qxd6  and now for example 13. Ne4 Qe7 14. Nc3 d6 15. Nd5 Qd8.


What about 9.a3 ? Seems like white is just much better.


Do you see that this is just line (b) by transposition?
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #51 - 06/23/11 at 00:55:44
Post Tools
punter wrote on 06/22/11 at 15:46:50:
Quote:
a) 7. e3 Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 O-O 10. O-O Ng6 11. Bg3 Bd6 12. Bxd6 Qxd6  and now for example 13. Ne4 Qe7 14. Nc3 d6 15. Nd5 Qd8.


What about 9.a3 ? Seems like white is just much better.


The reason White does not play a3 is because White wants to show that the b4-bishop is misplaced. If Black exchanges on d2 then White will have a more useful move than a3, like c5. White may play a3 later, after Nb3, if it means winning the bishop pair while compromising Black's pawn structure (...d6 a3 Bc5 Nc5 dc5).
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
punter
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 78
Joined: 05/18/11
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #50 - 06/22/11 at 15:46:50
Post Tools
Quote:
a) 7. e3 Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 O-O 10. O-O Ng6 11. Bg3 Bd6 12. Bxd6 Qxd6  and now for example 13. Ne4 Qe7 14. Nc3 d6 15. Nd5 Qd8.


What about 9.a3 ? Seems like white is just much better.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #49 - 06/21/11 at 09:25:22
Post Tools
Glenn Snow wrote on 06/21/11 at 04:21:00:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/10/11 at 14:28:55:
Kant wrote on 02/09/11 at 22:56:00:
I'm thinking about getting Taylor's Budapest book but have one more question.

In the line we were discussing, 1.d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. de Ng4 4.Nf3 Nc6, what is Taylor's response to 5.Bg5?

Does he follow the Polugaevsky-Nunn game, i.e., 5...Be7 6. Bxe7 Qxe7 7.Nc3 0-0, 8.Nd5, etc.?


yes, but with the opinion that Nunn went wrong on move 12


I know Georgiev in his Squeezing the Gambits book, thinks that White has "lasting pressure" in this position.  Apparently Taylor disagrees and for the record Georgiev quotes Moskalenko as writing, "What was Polugaevsky expecting in this balanced position?"


Taylor claims that Nunn's ...c6 to evict White's d5 knight is a mistake.  He may be right, but I have my doubts about his claim that Black can then just laugh at the outpost knight and go about his business with ...Nc5 and so forth.  I have a hunch that someone such as, oh, Polugaevsky could demonstrate the value of the strong knight. 

However I might have been prepared to give it a go as Black had I not encountered Stigma's seeming refutation of Taylor's key ideas in the main line. 

If the Budapest were adequate, Black could move-order his way around all forms of the QGA, QGD, Nimzo, KID and Grunfeld where White's KN were not on f3.  That observation does as much as anything to convince me that the Budapest must somehow be inadequate.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1710
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #48 - 06/21/11 at 04:21:00
Post Tools
Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/10/11 at 14:28:55:
Kant wrote on 02/09/11 at 22:56:00:
I'm thinking about getting Taylor's Budapest book but have one more question.

In the line we were discussing, 1.d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. de Ng4 4.Nf3 Nc6, what is Taylor's response to 5.Bg5?

Does he follow the Polugaevsky-Nunn game, i.e., 5...Be7 6. Bxe7 Qxe7 7.Nc3 0-0, 8.Nd5, etc.?


yes, but with the opinion that Nunn went wrong on move 12


I know Georgiev in his Squeezing the Gambits book, thinks that White has "lasting pressure" in this position.  Apparently Taylor disagrees and for the record Georgiev quotes Moskalenko as writing, "What was Polugaevsky expecting in this balanced position?"
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #47 - 06/20/11 at 23:24:04
Post Tools
I suspect that Avrukh just didn't want to have to deal with all those lines.  But who knows?

Move-order issues are hard to spot.  I suspect Taylor just got caught up in his work and didn't consider the possibility.  Sometimes you wake up in the middle of the night and realize there's a big hole in your analysis; sometimes there's a big hole and you don't wake up to it.

I promoted this because I wanted to see if anyone could salvage Taylor's idea(s).  I don't see how.  You deserve a lot of credit for spotting this.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3153
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Taylor's Budapest move ordered?
Reply #46 - 06/20/11 at 21:23:44
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 06/16/11 at 18:25:32:
I looked again at Taylor's book recently and I was impressed by his ideas of conserving the KB either with ...Bd6 or with ...Bc5 depending on the circumstances.  So I dug up this old thread hoping to find just what's wrong with the Budapest, and here it is. 

What Stigma shows here is that Taylor's key resource is no resource at all because he can be move-ordered out of it.  Does anyone care to dispute this?  If Stigma is correct, this blows Taylor's boat out of the water.

Glad you liked the idea. Probably the 11.Ne4 pawn sac (hardly a real sacrifice with those horrible doubled-isolated pawns on offer) is what Taylor missed.

And thanks for reminding me, I had completely forgot about this thread after nobody seemed interested! I should look over the analysis again.

P.S. Remarkably, Avrukh seems to think Black's sidelines after 4.Bf4 (4...g5; 4...Bb4+ 5.Nd2 d6) are a real challenge for White, so he went for 4.Nf3 instead.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Taylor's Budapest move ordered?
Reply #45 - 06/16/11 at 18:25:32
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 05/18/10 at 03:55:15:
I've finally looked at Taylor's book, particularly the 4.e3 with Nh3 and 4.Bf4 with Nbd2 lines that interest me as white. After 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 he presents many games with White gaining the bishop pair after either 7.e3 or 7.a3, and then grinding away with his +=. Good study material for white players too!

Taylor thinks he has found rough equality by avoiding the depressing ...Bxd2 against both 7.e3 and 7.a3, but in very different ways:

a) 7. e3 Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 O-O 10. O-O Ng6 11. Bg3 Bd6 12. Bxd6 Qxd6  and now for example 13. Ne4 Qe7 14. Nc3 d6 15. Nd5 Qd8.

b) 7. a3 Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 9.e3 Bc5!? (discovered by Liz Taylor) and now 10. Be2 d6 or 10.b4 Bd4.

But what if White keeps both the 7.e3 and 7.a3 main lines in mind? After 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nbd2 Qe7 7. e3 Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 0-0 Taylor expects 10.0-0 Ng6 and so on, but White can switch plans with 10.a3!? and after the consistent "Taylor move" 10...Bd6 (only 10...Bxd2 accepting the transposition has been played here) 11.Ne4!? is a promising pawn sac: 11...Nxc4 12.Nxd6 Nxd6 and White can simply exchange on d6 and take the c-file, while 13.Rc1 Ne8 14.Bxc7 is more risky, but very interesting; White must be ready to allow ...Qg5xg2 in some lines.
Instead 10...Bc5 looks playable; now 11.b4 Bd4!? is a version of Liz Taylor's idea again, but 11.Nb3 still wins the bishop pair since 11...Bb6? 12.c5 Bxc5 13.Nxc5 Qxc5 14.Rc1 Qd6 15.0-0 or 15.Qxd6 is clearly better for White. But maybe 11..d6 or 11...b6 here leads to some known theory?

Instead of 9...0-0 Black can try 9...d6 to meet 10.a3 with ...Bc5 and be back in the Taylor repertoire. But now White simply plays 10. O-O O-O 11. Nb3 and we're right back in a position from Karpov-Short, 1992 and others, which Taylor tries to ridicule the world's top players for entering!

Probably it's a rare White player who prepares both 7.e3 and 7.a3 main lines for the sole purpose of catching out those who rely on Taylor's recommended repertoire (his lines have been pretty rare in practice, at least before publication). But if I'm right this move order trick is still a problem for black players.


I looked again at Taylor's book recently and I was impressed by his ideas of conserving the KB either with ...Bd6 or with ...Bc5 depending on the circumstances.  So I dug up this old thread hoping to find just what's wrong with the Budapest, and here it is. 

What Stigma shows here is that Taylor's key resource is no resource at all because he can be move-ordered out of it.  Does anyone care to dispute this?  If Stigma is correct, this blows Taylor's boat out of the water.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 490
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #44 - 02/10/11 at 14:28:55
Post Tools
Kant wrote on 02/09/11 at 22:56:00:
I'm thinking about getting Taylor's Budapest book but have one more question.

In the line we were discussing, 1.d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. de Ng4 4.Nf3 Nc6, what is Taylor's response to 5.Bg5?

Does he follow the Polugaevsky-Nunn game, i.e., 5...Be7 6. Bxe7 Qxe7 7.Nc3 0-0, 8.Nd5, etc.?


yes, but with the opinion that Nunn went wrong on move 12
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Kant
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Strong FM, 2400+ USCF

Posts: 8
Joined: 01/21/11
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #43 - 02/09/11 at 22:56:00
Post Tools
Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/08/11 at 17:00:57:
Kant wrote on 02/08/11 at 02:15:15:
What is Taylor's suggestion against the generic mainline Nf3, e3, Be2, 0-0, b3, Bb2, Nc3, etc. (I'm not sure about the exact order of the moves)?  Does he recommend the popular ...a5 followed by the Ra6 rook lift?


No, not at all. In fact he goes to some length to explain why this isn't any good. (In brief: a timely f2-f4 forces the e5-knight back to g6 and then the rook on a6 just looks silly.)

His line is 4 Nf3 Nc6! (not 4...Bc5); e.g. 5 e3 Ngxe5 6 Be2 g6 and White doesn't really have anything much at all, or 5 Bf4 Bb4+ 6 Nbd2 Qe7 7 a3 Ngxe5 8 Nxe5 Nxe5 9 e3 and now 9...Bc5! which is a very nice idea.

Taylor's books are always worth looking at, I think.


I'm thinking about getting Taylor's Budapest book but have one more question.

In the line we were discussing, 1.d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 4. de Ng4 5.Nf3 Nc6, what is Taylor's response to 6.Bg5?

Does he follow the Polugaevsky-Nunn game, i.e., 5...Be7 6. Bxe7 Qxe7 7.Nc3 0-0, 8.Nd5, etc.?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 490
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #42 - 02/08/11 at 17:00:57
Post Tools
Kant wrote on 02/08/11 at 02:15:15:
What is Taylor's suggestion against the generic mainline Nf3, e3, Be2, 0-0, b3, Bb2, Nc3, etc. (I'm not sure about the exact order of the moves)?  Does he recommend the popular ...a5 followed by the Ra6 rook lift?


No, not at all. In fact he goes to some length to explain why this isn't any good. (In brief: a timely f2-f4 forces the e5-knight back to g6 and then the rook on a6 just looks silly.)

His line is 4 Nf3 Nc6! (not 4...Bc5); e.g. 5 e3 Ngxe5 6 Be2 g6 and White doesn't really have anything much at all, or 5 Bf4 Bb4+ 6 Nbd2 Qe7 7 a3 Ngxe5 8 Nxe5 Nxe5 9 e3 and now 9...Bc5! which is a very nice idea.

Taylor's books are always worth looking at, I think.
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Kant
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Strong FM, 2400+ USCF

Posts: 8
Joined: 01/21/11
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #41 - 02/08/11 at 02:15:15
Post Tools
What is Taylor's suggestion against the generic mainline Nf3, e3, Be2, 0-0, b3, Bb2, Nc3, etc. (I'm not sure about the exact order of the moves)?  Does he recommend the popular ...a5 followed by the Ra6 rook lift?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ribeye
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Theory? What's that?

Posts: 4
Joined: 08/15/10
Re: Taylor's Budapest move ordered?
Reply #40 - 08/15/10 at 19:50:44
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 05/19/10 at 22:48:19:
Bump.

Nobody interested in the Budapest? Maybe it's just a bad opening that gets more publicity than it deserves...


I am. Am I too late? I just got here. I am mainly a King's Indian Defender, but I am preparing the Faj as a surprise for my opponents since I have always used the same defense against 1.d4 for a few years now.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3153
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Taylor's Budapest move ordered?
Reply #39 - 05/19/10 at 22:48:19
Post Tools
Bump.

Nobody interested in the Budapest? Maybe it's just a bad opening that gets more publicity than it deserves...
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3153
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Taylor's Budapest move ordered?
Reply #38 - 05/18/10 at 03:55:15
Post Tools
I've finally looked at Taylor's book, particularly the 4.e3 with Nh3 and 4.Bf4 with Nbd2 lines that interest me as white. After 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 he presents many games with White gaining the bishop pair after either 7.e3 or 7.a3, and then grinding away with his +=. Good study material for white players too!

Taylor thinks he has found rough equality by avoiding the depressing ...Bxd2 against both 7.e3 and 7.a3, but in very different ways:

a) 7. e3 Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 O-O 10. O-O Ng6 11. Bg3 Bd6 12. Bxd6 Qxd6  and now for example 13. Ne4 Qe7 14. Nc3 d6 15. Nd5 Qd8.

b) 7. a3 Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 9.e3 Bc5!? (discovered by Liz Taylor) and now 10. Be2 d6 or 10.b4 Bd4.

But what if White keeps both the 7.e3 and 7.a3 main lines in mind? After 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nbd2 Qe7 7. e3 Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 0-0 Taylor expects 10.0-0 Ng6 and so on, but White can switch plans with 10.a3!? and after the consistent "Taylor move" 10...Bd6 (only 10...Bxd2 accepting the transposition has been played here) 11.Ne4!? is a promising pawn sac: 11...Nxc4 12.Nxd6 Nxd6 and White can simply exchange on d6 and take the c-file, while 13.Rc1 Ne8 14.Bxc7 is more risky, but very interesting; White must be ready to allow ...Qg5xg2 in some lines.
Instead 10...Bc5 looks playable; now 11.b4 Bd4!? is a version of Liz Taylor's idea again, but 11.Nb3 still wins the bishop pair since 11...Bb6? 12.c5 Bxc5 13.Nxc5 Qxc5 14.Rc1 Qd6 15.0-0 or 15.Qxd6 is clearly better for White. But maybe 11..d6 or 11...b6 here leads to some known theory?

Instead of 9...0-0 Black can try 9...d6 to meet 10.a3 with ...Bc5 and be back in the Taylor repertoire. But now White simply plays 10. O-O O-O 11. Nb3 and we're right back in a position from Karpov-Short, 1992 and others, which Taylor tries to ridicule the world's top players for entering!

Probably it's a rare White player who prepares both 7.e3 and 7.a3 main lines for the sole purpose of catching out those who rely on Taylor's recommended repertoire (his lines have been pretty rare in practice, at least before publication). But if I'm right this move order trick is still a problem for black players.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Online


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10515
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #37 - 09/25/09 at 03:14:20
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 09/25/09 at 00:03:41:
If I play the Budapest against a stronger player, there is no guarantee that I will get attacking chances, in fact most of the main lines I've looked at are calmer and more endgame-oriented than my preferred Grünfeld, Nimzo-Indian or Leningrad Dutch lines.


I completely agree. Even 1.d4 d5 2.c4 deserves the name gambit more. Of course Fajarowicz' 3...Ne4 is a real gambit, but I always have found those lines involving a queen's fianchetto quite dodgy.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3153
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #36 - 09/25/09 at 00:03:41
Post Tools
Allright, sorry for misunderstanding. I'm still not sure I agree though.

My normal defences lead to strategically unbalanced positions, and are mostly reasonable tries for equality according to theory. I find this a good basis for both beating lower-rated opponents and challenging higher-rated ones.

If I play the Budapest against a stronger player, there is no guarantee that I will get attacking chances, in fact most of the main lines I've looked at are calmer and more endgame-oriented than my preferred Grünfeld, Nimzo-Indian or Leningrad Dutch lines. If White is a careful positional player he will choose 4.e3 or or 4.Bf4 and get his type of position. Sure there are some aggressive sidelines against 4.Bf4 but they just look dubious to me.

Besides, there is a big hole in this "Trapping Heffalumps"* theory of playing against stronger opponents: By avoiding your normal game against stronger opponents, you never get to test and perfect your real openings and style.

Far better is to assess your own and the opponent's strengths and weaknesses in preparation, and find the best "match" to emphasize your strengths and his weaknesses. I try to do this for every tournament game and mostly within my normal repertoire.  Of course such an analysis may well suggest wild, tactical play as the best chance, but on the other hand even a GM could have his greatest strength in tactical positions, or in defence.

* referring to the classic "Chess for Tigers" by Simon Webb
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
zoo
Ex Member


Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #35 - 09/24/09 at 22:56:51
Post Tools
"Won't make much difference" : It was not meant to say that playing the BG is a more pleasant way to throw the game away, but that it's a good policy to play more aggressively against stronger players, and that your results will be no worse than with your usual (or best) openings. Two reasons for that :

1. Have you ever been suffocated by a stronger player from an equal position after playing your best opening? this is the worst experience in chess, one that makes you want to say : "no more!"

2. When playing aggressively, you randomise the game, which benefits to the weaker player. More importantly, your opponent may start to make concessions just to keep the game under control, until he makes one too many and realises that he can't win any more - or worse. I recall a game between Davoud Pira (a strong IM) and Alexei Dreev (a strong GM) won by Pira. With great modesty, he said :" First he under-estimated me, and then he over-estimated me."

As for what can be proven with a chess game I'm not too sure, but I recall an opening ceremony when the city mayor - his name was Jack Ralite - said : "I am proud to welcome this chess tournament, a battle of intelligence, in my city. But with all the problems in the world, I can't see why so many brilliant people gather just the create, out of nothing, a new set of problems for themselves to solve."
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #34 - 09/24/09 at 19:43:50
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 09/24/09 at 19:34:07:
Won't make much difference?! It's precisely the players rated above yourself, and certainly as little as 150 points, you want to beat or draw to show you're improving! I try to always play my best openings (the ones I understand best, not necesserily objectively best) against higher rated opponents. Challenge them as much as I can and let them prove they're stronger! Quite often recently, they can't...

One of the reasons I have kept up with the Budapest as long as I did is because my results against stronger players were quite good. When I played regular openings against someone rated 200 points above me it was curtains after 20 moves. With the Budapest I would sometimes draw and when I lost I lost in the endgame (which is a good learning experience, though a tad frustrating at times).
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3153
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #33 - 09/24/09 at 19:34:07
Post Tools
Quote:
A classical trick is to play it against 150+ more elo, won't make much difference and you'll be based as a BG player.
Moskalenko is a very good pro, rarely losing to weaker players. If it's good enough for him...


Won't make much difference?! It's precisely the players rated above yourself, and certainly as little as 150 points, you want to beat or draw to show you're improving! I try to always play my best openings (the ones I understand best, not necesserily objectively best) against higher rated opponents. Challenge them as much as I can and let them prove they're stronger! Quite often recently, they can't...

I would rather reverse this "trick"; I have many lines that I have really given up, but I still play them against patzers (at least 300 elo lower) who won't know the best lines anyway, to confuse the "basers".

True, Moskalenko does play the BG himself (I checked the database). But as a GM probably he has the broad understanding you need to win from both wild, calm and technical positions. I suspect most amateur BG players are most attracted to the opening's attacking and tactical nature, which makes the calm lines like Markovich's 4.e3/5.Nh3 all the more effective against them.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
zoo
Ex Member


Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #32 - 09/24/09 at 17:31:17
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 09/22/09 at 12:57:30:
I really find it hard to understand who the Budapest is suitable for.

People often threaten to play it, sometimes inducing White into 2.Nf3, but of course Black has to study this opening more thoroughly than White (N variations vs 1 or 2). A classical trick is to play it against 150+ more elo, won't make much difference and you'll be based as a BG player.
Moskalenko is a very good pro, rarely losing to weaker players. If it's good enough for him...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3153
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #31 - 09/23/09 at 02:52:34
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 09/23/09 at 01:44:01:
Stohl-Blatny went 13.Ne4 Qe5 14.Nc3 when Stohl reckons that White's control over d4 and d5 gives him an edge (+/=).  

Does Moskalenko see it differently?

No, not really. He mentions both 13.Ne4, 13.Qc2 and 13.Nb3, but all these lines end in a slight advantage for White.

Moskalenko notes that Black doesn't score well in this line, and he goes so far as to recommend 6.Nbd2 to White players. From my superficial reading he seems to find most hope for Black in 9...d6!? 10.0-0 and now 10...a5!? or 10...Bd7; or alternatively 9...0-0 10.0-0 a5.

It will be interesting to see Taylor's analysis. If Black is eventually OK against both 4.Bf4/7.e3 and 4.e3/5.Nh3, I may need a new line against the Budapest...  Undecided
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1492
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #30 - 09/23/09 at 01:44:01
Post Tools
Stohl-Blatny went 13.Ne4 Qe5 14.Nc3 when Stohl reckons that White's control over d4 and d5 gives him an edge (+/=). 

Does Moskalenko see it differently?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3153
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #29 - 09/23/09 at 00:00:35
Post Tools
TopNotch wrote on 09/22/09 at 22:50:05:
Yes, this is probably a typo. Most likely he meant Blatny's move 10...Ng6 intending 11.Bg3 and only then Bd6 with a solid game.

Tops Smiley

Sounds logical. I see now that Moskalenko's 2007 book also covered this, using Stohl-Blatny, Prague 1996 as his example game. The queen on d6 looks a bit strange, but maybe it's OK. The following game by a Budapest expert could be important:

[Event "ZMD Open"]
[Site "Dresden GER"]
[Date "2008.07.22"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Kunz, K."]
[Black "Miezis, N."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A52"]
[WhiteElo "2231"]
[BlackElo "2540"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nbd2 Qe7 7. e3 Ncxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 9. Be2 O-O 10. O-O Ng6 11. Bg3 Bd6 12. Bxd6 Qxd6 13. Qc2 b6 14. Bf3 Rb8 15. g3 Ne5 16. Bg2 Bb7 17. Bxb7 Rxb7 18. Rad1 f5 19. Qc3 Qe7 20. Qd4 Rf7 21. Rfe1 Rb8 22. a3 Re8 23. f4 Nc6 24. Qc3 Rf6 25. b4 Re6 26. Nf1 a5 27. c5 axb4 28. axb4 b5 29. Qd3 Rb8 30. Qxf5 Nxb4 31. Rd2 c6 32. Ra1 Rf8 33. Qb1 Nd5 34. Rxd5 cxd5 35. Qxb5 Rc6 36. Ra5 Re8 37. Qb7 h6 38. Ra7 Rxc5 39. Qxd7 Qxd7 40. Rxd7 Rb8 0-1

13...b6 was not mentioned by Moskalenko, who focused on 13...Qe7 but felt White had an edge (14.c5!).

Kunz' 15.g3 may be too slow to fight for an advantage. White has other options on move 13 too.

  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2050
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #28 - 09/22/09 at 22:50:05
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 09/22/09 at 12:57:30:
John Donaldson has a review up on http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_jd/Budapest_Gambit.html

One line mentioned there is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.e3. White just leaves the bishop looking sllly on b4 rather than spend a tempo on a3. 7...Nxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 0-0 10.0-0.

Now Donaldson comments:
Quote:
"Taylor points out that Black has tried not only 10…Bxd2 but also 10…Re8, 10…d6 and 10…a5 with generally miserable results. These moves force the second player to either surrender the two Bishops or allow pawn weaknesses, or both. The author’s solution is the little known 10…Bd6!? which he spends seven pages examining."


Is this a typo from Donaldson? I just don't understand how 10...Bd6 can solve Black's problems after 11.Ne4! and now:
- 11...Bc5?? 12.Qd5 d6 13.Nxc5 +-
- 11...b6 12.Nxd6 cxd6 13.Qd4 with a R coming to d1.
- 11...Nxc4 12.Bxd6 (or 12.Nxd6 Nxd6 13.Rc1 Ne8 14.Bxc7 d6 15.Ba5 b6 16.Bb4 a5 17.Bc3. White has the bishop pair and better pawns.)12...Nxd6 13.Nxd6 cxd6 14.Rc1 with fantastic compensation.

I know some people enjoy playing with an IQP but this looks too much of a good thing! Smiley

Btw. I'm also interested in the 4.e3/5.Nh3 line you're discussing, it's a very easy solution for White.

I really find it hard to understand who the Budapest is suitable for. Even if it somehow holds up theoretically, it's a rare player who is comfortable with both patient positional play (e3/Nh3 lines), technical positions where White has the bishop pair (4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ lines), attacking lines with ...Ra6-h6, and playing against a big centre in lines like 4.e4 h5!? (Taylor).


Yes, this is probably a typo. Most likely he meant Blatny's move 10...Ng6 intending 11.Bg3 and only then Bd6 with a solid game.

Tops Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3153
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #27 - 09/22/09 at 12:57:30
Post Tools
John Donaldson has a review up on http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_jd/Budapest_Gambit.html

One line mentioned there is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.e3. White just leaves the bishop looking sllly on b4 rather than spend a tempo on a3. 7...Nxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 0-0 10.0-0.

Now Donaldson comments:
Quote:
"Taylor points out that Black has tried not only 10…Bxd2 but also 10…Re8, 10…d6 and 10…a5 with generally miserable results. These moves force the second player to either surrender the two Bishops or allow pawn weaknesses, or both. The author’s solution is the little known 10…Bd6!? which he spends seven pages examining."


Is this a typo from Donaldson? I just don't understand how 10...Bd6 can solve Black's problems after 11.Ne4! and now:
- 11...Bc5?? 12.Qd5 d6 13.Nxc5 +-
- 11...b6 12.Nxd6 cxd6 13.Qd4 with a R coming to d1.
- 11...Nxc4 12.Bxd6 (or 12.Nxd6 Nxd6 13.Rc1 Ne8 14.Bxc7 d6 15.Ba5 b6 16.Bb4 a5 17.Bc3. White has the bishop pair and better pawns.)12...Nxd6 13.Nxd6 cxd6 14.Rc1 with fantastic compensation.

I know some people enjoy playing with an IQP but this looks too much of a good thing! Smiley

Btw. I'm also interested in the 4.e3/5.Nh3 line you're discussing, it's a very easy solution for White.

I really find it hard to understand who the Budapest is suitable for. Even if it somehow holds up theoretically, it's a rare player who is comfortable with both patient positional play (e3/Nh3 lines), technical positions where White has the bishop pair (4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ lines), attacking lines with ...Ra6-h6, and playing against a big centre in lines like 4.e4 h5!? (Taylor).
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #26 - 09/16/09 at 12:54:33
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 09/15/09 at 14:34:55:
5...g6 (followed by steering the QN to c5) was also Nunn's choice in NCO, where several games are cited (including the above-mentioned Gurevich-Tisdall) which supposedly led to equality.


Yeah but it isn't really equal if White gets to develop his bishop on b2.  White still can hope to grind out a win based on his space advantage and domination of d5.  It's this ...a5-a4 idea in reaction to White's Qd2 that has me bothered, and I don't recall seeing that featured anywhere; I just noticed it in my data base.  Or maybe that idea too was in Nunn or some other reference and I just missed it.  I'll have to look deeper because White also can try Bd2 and may have something even then.  It's one thing to put "=" in a book, it's another thing to play the position.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4648
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #25 - 09/15/09 at 14:34:55
Post Tools
5...g6 (followed by steering the QN to c5) was also Nunn's choice in NCO, where several games are cited (including the above-mentioned Gurevich-Tisdall) which supposedly led to equality.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #24 - 09/15/09 at 12:02:42
Post Tools
I think Bibs is right that 6...g6 is Black's best.  A big problem then for White is that his natural idea of Qd2, b3 and Bb2 is readily stymied if Black reacts immediately with ...a5! and as soon as b3, with ...a4!.  I looked at it last night for some time and my confidence in 5.Nh3 was reduced.  White's statistics are very good, but not when Black exploits this nuance.  Black's ...Nbd7-c5 is particularly good with his bishop on g7, I think.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #23 - 09/15/09 at 07:59:25
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 09/15/09 at 02:51:00:
Oh, I don't know that such a specific discussion between two amateurs proves anything, but at move 14. I suppose I would play e4 and follow with Nfd5, trying to keep up my bind and willing to meet 14.e4 Bd7 15.Nfd5 f5 with something like 16.f4 N~ 17.exf5 Bxf5 18.Ne3 Bd7 19.g3.  I don't see that Black's game is all that good, but maybe I'm wrong.

Black also had 12...f5 and I'm not sure how White should play against that.

In my database, 12.Rad1 is much preferred to 12.b3 and White scores 81.8% in 11 games.  From looking at some of them, it seems that White can get by without b3.  For the time being, I'll maintain my view that Black's check from b4 is not his best plan against White's system.

Sure, but imo this line is better without the bishops than with it for black as the advance of the f-pawn lacks additional firepower (ie with the c1-bishop on the long diagonal). The black f8-bishop usually isnt much use on the q-side when e3 has been played (and is very prone to tempo losses due to a3 and b4), while I think on g7 it costs too many moves and indeed gives white the time he needs to execute the plans with the knight travel and advance of the f-pawn.

Then again we are not really discussing hot theory here as I think this e3 line is one of the many where it is black who has to prove equality. I think the lines of Palliser and Cox in their 1.d4 books are much worse for black in this respect (slight but very steady advantage to white), but that's me.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #22 - 09/15/09 at 02:51:00
Post Tools
Oh, I don't know that such a specific discussion between two amateurs proves anything, but at move 14. I suppose I would play e4 and follow with Nfd5, trying to keep up my bind and willing to meet 14.e4 Bd7 15.Nfd5 f5 with something like 16.f4 N~ 17.exf5 Bxf5 18.Ne3 Bd7 19.g3.  I don't see that Black's game is all that good, but maybe I'm wrong.

Black also had 12...f5 and I'm not sure how White should play against that.

In my database, 12.Rad1 is much preferred to 12.b3 and White scores 81.8% in 11 games.  From looking at some of them, it seems that White can get by without b3.  For the time being, I'll maintain my view that Black's check from b4 is not his best plan against White's system.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #21 - 09/14/09 at 23:44:25
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 09/14/09 at 19:46:46:
Actually I think it's a mistake for Black to accelerate White's development in this way.  After 6...Nxe5 7.Nc3 White's obvious plan is to go Nf4-d5, Be2, 0-0, and ram his f-pawn to f6.  I once defeated CC-IM John Mousessian with this.  White can also consider playing on the queenside.

I think a great many people assume that this system is innocuous because of the funny-looking knight deployment to h3.  But it's a big deal to have this piece on f4 instead of f3, and worth the investment of time to get it there.

I am not sure what you get against a very simple black set up (as played by Mohr who played the Budapest with some success):
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.e3 Nxe5 5.Nh3 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 Bxd2+ 7.Qxd2 d6 8.Nf4 0-0 9.Be2 Nbd7 10.Nc3 a5 11.0-0 Nc5 12.b3 Bf5 13.f3 f6 14.Rad1 Re8
Sure you can try for some other stuff, but you are missing that bishop sorely and black always can bail out with c6 (sometimes combined with Ng6) to kick away a knight from d5.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #20 - 09/14/09 at 19:46:46
Post Tools
Willempie wrote on 09/14/09 at 17:57:18:
Markovich wrote on 09/14/09 at 13:09:15:
For a long time, I've felt that an excellent line of play against the Budapest (with 3...Ng4) is 4.e3 Nxe5 5.Nh3.  I'll be interested to see what Taylor has to say about this.  Actually I admit that I probably won't buy Taylor's book, I'll just keep playing 4.e3 until someone convinces me that White has no advantage there.

4..Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Bxd2 6.Qxd2 Nxe5 seems like a clear equaliser. At least that is what I always played. If 5.Nd2 then I think you get a worse version of the normal lines.


Actually I think it's a mistake for Black to accelerate White's development in this way.  After 6...Nxe5 7.Nc3 White's obvious plan is to go Nf4-d5, Be2, 0-0, and ram his f-pawn to f6.  I once defeated CC-IM John Mousessian with this.  White can also consider playing on the queenside.

I think a great many people assume that this system is innocuous because of the funny-looking knight deployment to h3.  But it's a big deal to have this piece on f4 instead of f3, and worth the investment of time to get it there.

@SWJediknight:  I think the pawn on c4 potentiates Nh3 because it strengthens White's control of d5.  Black's analoguous ...f5 would be rather weakening, besides his e5 knight resting on a lousy square to fight for e4.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #19 - 09/14/09 at 17:57:18
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 09/14/09 at 13:09:15:
For a long time, I've felt that an excellent line of play against the Budapest (with 3...Ng4) is 4.e3 Nxe5 5.Nh3.  I'll be interested to see what Taylor has to say about this.  Actually I admit that I probably won't buy Taylor's book, I'll just keep playing 4.e3 until someone convinces me that White has no advantage there.

4..Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Bxd2 6.Qxd2 Nxe5 seems like a clear equaliser. At least that is what I always played. If 5.Nd2 then I think you get a worse version of the normal lines.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Offline


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 900
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #18 - 09/14/09 at 14:14:19
Post Tools
I always thought the most critical response was 4.Bf4, when Black has a choice between the risky (but ambitious!) 4...g5 and 4...Bb4+ 5.Nbd2 d6, and the fairly sterile positions after 4...Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.a3 Ngxe5 8.e3 (not 8.axb4?? Nd3#) when White may have an edge.  White can of course play 6.Nc3 but as far as I'm aware, 6...Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 Qe7 8.Qd5 f6! is currently considered to give Black decent compensation.

I must admit I know no theory after 4.e3 and 4.e4, but I always thought that if those sorts of lines were not considered too critical against the immediate 1...e5, then surely Black's chances in the analogous lines of the Budapest (where White has played c2-c4) can't be too bad.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #17 - 09/14/09 at 14:02:37
Post Tools
Yeah, Shereshevsky's recommendation.  They used to say 5...Ng6 but then it turned out that g3, Bg2, 0-0, f4 and so forth was strong for White.  Ramming the f-pawn is one of White's big themes, as you probably will know.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2170
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #16 - 09/14/09 at 13:56:48
Post Tools
5...g6 is the suggested reply by Moskalenko (and others I think, but can't remember where)

Anyhow, Gurevich-Tisdall the usually cited game.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chesscollection?cid=1012070

and scroll down.

Nh3 given by shershevsky in Soviet Chess Conveyor book, right?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #15 - 09/14/09 at 13:09:15
Post Tools
For a long time, I've felt that an excellent line of play against the Budapest (with 3...Ng4) is 4.e3 Nxe5 5.Nh3.  I'll be interested to see what Taylor has to say about this.  Actually I admit that I probably won't buy Taylor's book, I'll just keep playing 4.e3 until someone convinces me that White has no advantage there.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TicklyTim
Senior Member
****
Offline


can I take that back,
please...

Posts: 274
Location: England
Joined: 05/29/09
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #14 - 09/14/09 at 12:10:40
Post Tools
thibdb13 wrote on 09/14/09 at 06:53:17:
And I presume the third problem is white could play 3.dxe5  Huh


The big question though is what is the 4th problem.
ie; what to play on move 4.

Are lines after 4.Bf4 mostly likely the best way for White to try and maintain as much advantage as possible? Whereas 4.Nf3 are the safe way of playing without risking too much?
I looked at the 4.e4 lines - Didn't like. I think white risks too much against a prepared Black, but maybe a dicey try against a much weaker opponent?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
thibdb13
God Member
*****
Offline


Tal was the best

Posts: 974
Location: Mechelen
Joined: 01/25/07
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #13 - 09/14/09 at 06:53:17
Post Tools
Antillian wrote on 09/13/09 at 23:00:32:
LeeRoth wrote on 09/13/09 at 19:58:06:
 The second big problem is that White may play 2.c4 . . .

Wink


Classic  Grin

And I presume the third problem is white could play 3.dxe5  Huh
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Antillian
God Member
*****
Offline


Brilliance without dazzle!

Posts: 1753
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #12 - 09/13/09 at 23:00:32
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 09/13/09 at 19:58:06:
 The second big problem is that White may play 2.c4 . . .

Wink


Classic  Grin
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #11 - 09/13/09 at 22:26:58
Post Tools
rdecredico wrote on 09/10/09 at 17:19:27:
In a 12 Chapter book, he devotes 5 Chapters on this system with  4.e4 which he (Taylor) claims "is the critical test of the Budapest Gambit."  

If that is the critical test, then there isnt a problem. However I think the "simple and easy lines" with Nf3 and/or Bf4 are much tougher to meet. With 4.e4 there are quite some options for black and the very few times I played it I followed Keres-Gilg (from 1935 or so Grin) and got a good game. The other lines was what made me give it up. No chance for a win, unless you are much better at endgames than your opponent (and even if they are it is still tough).
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1492
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #10 - 09/13/09 at 19:58:06
Post Tools
I'm not sure why anyone plays this opening, but always figured that it was because they were hoping for 4.e4 and not one of the main lines.

In any event, the first big problem with relying on the Budapest is that White may play 2.Nf3, in which case you need a completely different defense.  The second big problem is that White may play 2.c4 . . .

Wink



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #9 - 09/10/09 at 17:52:35
Post Tools
Interesting.  Well, I suppose he's entitled to his view.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rdecredico
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 71
Joined: 08/26/09
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #8 - 09/10/09 at 17:19:27
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 09/10/09 at 16:46:51:
rdecredico wrote on 09/10/09 at 15:26:02:
TicklyTim wrote on 09/09/09 at 12:37:56:
What is Black meant to fear the most?


The Alekhine Attack: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.de Ng4 4. e4!


Is this Taylor's view, or what?  Over the last few decades, I don't think I've ever seen 4. e4 regarded as the biggest threat to Black.


In a 12 Chapter book, he devotes 5 Chapters on this system with  4.e4 which he (Taylor) claims "is the critical test of the Budapest Gambit."  

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4648
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #7 - 09/10/09 at 16:46:51
Post Tools
rdecredico wrote on 09/10/09 at 15:26:02:
TicklyTim wrote on 09/09/09 at 12:37:56:
What is Black meant to fear the most?


The Alekhine Attack: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.de Ng4 4. e4!


Is this Taylor's view, or what?  Over the last few decades, I don't think I've ever seen 4. e4 regarded as the biggest threat to Black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rdecredico
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 71
Joined: 08/26/09
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #6 - 09/10/09 at 15:26:02
Post Tools
TicklyTim wrote on 09/09/09 at 12:37:56:
What is Black meant to fear the most?


The Alekhine Attack: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.de Ng4 4. e4!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TicklyTim
Senior Member
****
Offline


can I take that back,
please...

Posts: 274
Location: England
Joined: 05/29/09
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #5 - 09/09/09 at 12:37:56
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 09/09/09 at 12:24:03:
The Budapest is ambitious?  I'm not sure that I agree with that.  Ambitious for the half point, maybe.  Oh all right, the Fajarowicz I will concede is ambitious.


I agree. I think the Budapest is annoyingly solid. I have tried to find some lines with a sizeable advantage, but haven't succeeded.
What is Black meant to fear the most?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #4 - 09/09/09 at 12:24:03
Post Tools
The Budapest is ambitious?  I'm not sure that I agree with that.  Ambitious for the half point, maybe.  Oh all right, the Fajarowicz I will concede is ambitious.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
thibdb13
God Member
*****
Offline


Tal was the best

Posts: 974
Location: Mechelen
Joined: 01/25/07
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #3 - 09/09/09 at 11:24:41
Post Tools
The book is out now. Did someone buy it? What do you think of it?
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trandism
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 181
Location: Greece
Joined: 04/12/08
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #2 - 02/07/09 at 10:35:11
Post Tools
Adding to what TN says, there is the Moskalenko book and I can't believe that Taylor can write a better book than the Moskalenko book
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
Reply #1 - 01/30/09 at 05:25:09
Post Tools
I wouldn't get too excited over this book. If you look at his previous books 'Bird's Opening' and 'Beating the King's Indian and Grunfeld', his analysis sometimes contains holes (as reviewers have shown), and he also has a tendency to exclude some (not all) of the most critical variations against his recommendations.

If the books were aimed at players below club level, this would be forgivable, but given that these books are aimed at several levels of players, these holes and oversights reduce the quality of his books.

By the way, his latest book 'True Combat Chess' was also labelled by one prominent reviewer (I have forgotten who) as being of little use to club players.

Hopefully this book will be a refreshing improvement over his previous tomes.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rossia
Senior Member
****
Online


Saw: "Game Over!"

Posts: 334
Location: Irkutsk
Joined: 09/17/07
NEW BUDAPEST BOOK
01/29/09 at 14:11:44
Post Tools
The Budapest Gambit
Timothy Taylor
The Budapest Gambit is an ambitious and adventurous opening for Black, who offers a pawn as early as the second move in return for active and rapid development. It has always been a particular favourite at club level, where it still provides a surprise weapon, but it has also been utilized with success by top-class Grandmasters.

In this book Timothy Taylor offers an in-depth study of the Budapest Gambit and its many variations. Using illustrative games, Taylor presents up-to-date analysis of the theory, makes recommendations on the best options for Black and White, and covers the typical plans for both sides. This book provides everything you need to know about this fascinating opening.

*Covers both the main lines and tricky deviations

*Highlights crucial tactical and positional ideas

*Packed with original analysis.

Published July 2009 EU, August 2009 US | ISBN 9781857445923
Format Paperback, 192 pages


http://www.everymanchess.com/chess/books/The_Budapest_Gambit
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo