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Normal Topic anti - Samisch move order (Read 8071 times)
TN
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Re: anti - Samisch move order
Reply #9 - 09/30/09 at 05:58:29
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kylemeister wrote on 03/15/09 at 20:20:12:
It might be noted that delayed ...0-0 in the Saemisch Panno has long been known from games like Shamkovich-Platonov and Gheorghiu-W. Watson, given e.g. in John Watson's book on the variation 27 years ago.  It does seem "Dangerous Weapon"-like, but I don't think that its inclusion in such a book should be taken as implying that it is better than other delayed (/omitted)-castling lines, such as the one in the original question or the one in the Byrne variation.

editing/correcting:  Platonov-Shamkovich (those seem to be the right colors) involved delayed ...0-0; Gheorghiu-Watson involved instead holding back the d-pawn, which is apparently the line in the DW book.


The Byrne System (without ...0-0) was covered in Yearbook 92 by Grivas, who concluded that Black has good chances of equalising. While I admit that it's a very solid system, I still believe that White should retain the advantage with a timely c5 break, e.g. 5.f3 a6 6.Be3 c6 7.c5 Nbd7 8.cd6 ed6 9.Nf4.
  
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Re: anti - Samisch move order
Reply #8 - 09/29/09 at 13:50:10
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LeeRoth wrote on 09/28/09 at 18:01:17:
Yes, but Spassky was better out of the opening.   Wink

   


We can argue: If even Fischer wasn't able to win with this variation, its rubbish!  Wink
  
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Re: anti - Samisch move order
Reply #7 - 09/28/09 at 18:01:17
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Yes, but Spassky was better out of the opening.   Wink
  
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Re: anti - Samisch move order
Reply #6 - 09/28/09 at 12:59:52
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refutor wrote on 03/15/09 at 18:35:47:
any thoughts on the move order

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 c5 instead of the usual 5. ...O-O.

the advantages (and disadvantages to this) is that white doesn't get the queenless, pawn up main line of the samisch. in addition black gets a relatively good benoni...in my opinion any non-Taimanov Benoni is a good position.  thoughts?


That's the way Fischer played against Spassky in the 2nd Game in 1992. He got a winning position but plundered in the endgame:

[Event "Match Spassky"]
[Site "Sveti Stefan/Belgrade"]
[Date "1992.09.03"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Spassky, Boris V"]
[Black "Fischer, Robert James"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "E80"]
[WhiteElo "2560"]
[BlackElo "2785"]
[PlyCount "117"]
[EventDate "1992.09.02"]
[EventType "match"]
[EventRounds "30"]
[EventCountry "YUG"]


1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3 c5 6. dxc5 dxc5 7. Qxd8+ Kxd8 8.Be3 Nfd7 9. Nge2 b6 10. O-O-O Na6 11. g3 Nc7 12. f4 e6 13. Bh3 Ke7 14. Rhf1 h6 15. e5 Bb7 16. g4 Rad8 17. Ng3 f6 18. Nce4 fxe5 19. f5 Bxe4 20. Nxe4 gxf5 21.gxf5 Nf6 22. Rg1 Rxd1+ 23. Kxd1 Bf8 24. Nxf6 Kxf6 25. Rf1 exf5 26. Rxf5+ Kg7 27. Rxe5 Bd6 28. Re4 Bxh2 29. Ke2 h5 30. Re7+ Kf6 31. Rd7 Be5 32. b3 h4 33. Kf3 Rg8 34. Bg4 h3 35. Rh7 h2 36. Bf4 Rf8 37. Bxe5+ Kg6+ 38. Ke4 Kxh7 39. Bxh2 Re8+ 40. Kf5 Ne6 41. Kf6 Nd4 42. Bd6 Re4 43. Bd7 Re2 44. a4 Rb2 45. Bb8 a5 46. Ba7 Rxb3 47. Ke5 Nf3+ 48. Kd6 Nd2 49. Be6 Rb4 50. Kc6 Nb3 51. Bd5 Rxa4 52. Bxb6 Ra1 53. Bxc5 a4 54. Bb4 a3 55. c5 Nd4+ 56. Kd7 Rd1 57. Bxa3 Nc2 58. c6 Rxd5+ 59.Bd6 1/2-1/2
  
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Re: anti - Samisch move order
Reply #5 - 03/20/09 at 21:11:19
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I still think, if Black prefers the old-fashioned ...Nbd7 variations, that 1...Nf6 2...d6 3...Nbd7 is most precise. It also avoids the Four Pawns and anticipates the various Bg5 variations.
  
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Re: anti - Samisch move order
Reply #4 - 03/20/09 at 12:49:23
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Before any effective systems for Black against the Saemisch were developed, in the 1950s the great Soviet and Argentinian KID players often used to try to reach the KID via move order tricks, such as starting with 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 d6, "threatening" an Old Indian and thus provoking 3 Nf3. If White called the bluff with 3 Nc3, then they would play 3...Nbd7 preparing ...e5 while keeping options open for the f8 bishop, or even invite the queenless middlegame with 3...e5, if they definitely did not want to face the Saemisch.

"Saemisch-fear" was probably also the root of the development of the move order 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 c5 3 d5 e5 4 Nc3 d6 5 e4 g6 (or 5...Nbd7 keeping options open for a further move) - we have a thread on this "Argentinian" variation somewhere on this forum.
  
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Re: anti - Samisch move order
Reply #3 - 03/15/09 at 20:20:12
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It might be noted that delayed ...0-0 in the Saemisch Panno has long been known from games like Shamkovich-Platonov and Gheorghiu-W. Watson, given e.g. in John Watson's book on the variation 27 years ago.  It does seem "Dangerous Weapon"-like, but I don't think that its inclusion in such a book should be taken as implying that it is better than other delayed (/omitted)-castling lines, such as the one in the original question or the one in the Byrne variation.

editing/correcting:  Platonov-Shamkovich (those seem to be the right colors) involved delayed ...0-0; Gheorghiu-Watson involved instead holding back the d-pawn, which is apparently the line in the DW book.
« Last Edit: 03/15/09 at 21:42:01 by kylemeister »  
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Re: anti - Samisch move order
Reply #2 - 03/15/09 at 19:35:44
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If you want to postpone castling against the Samisch, the best route is probably 5...Nc6!? as given in 'Dangerous Weapons: The King's Indian'. I don't own the book, but I assume the idea is to follow with a6, Rb8, then b5 and/or e5, without castling so that the king is not a target of White's archetypal kingside attack.
  
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Re: anti - Samisch move order
Reply #1 - 03/15/09 at 19:03:05
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NCO, p.516: 5...c5 6.dc5 dc5 7.Qd8 Kd8 8.Be3 Nfd7 9.Nge2 +=
  
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anti - Samisch move order
03/15/09 at 18:35:47
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any thoughts on the move order

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 c5 instead of the usual 5. ...O-O.

the advantages (and disadvantages to this) is that white doesn't get the queenless, pawn up main line of the samisch. in addition black gets a relatively good benoni...in my opinion any non-Taimanov Benoni is a good position.  thoughts?
  
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