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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7. (Read 30817 times)
Keano
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #88 - 05/09/16 at 18:05:13
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Well there was simply so much information in those pgn's I cannot address everything. Here's my first go addressing some of the critical lines. No doubt I have missed some things but for the moment it seems to me that Black is holding up in all lines, although for the minute 12.c5(!) seems like the way to pose most problems.

  
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Keano
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #87 - 05/06/16 at 12:30:48
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It does indeed. I'll have a look later over the weekend, thanks.
  
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lg
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #86 - 05/05/16 at 21:01:55
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Hi Keano

does this work ?

  

4PswithQd7Rd8Bg4_001.pgn ( 14 KB | 22 Downloads )
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Keano
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #85 - 05/05/16 at 20:44:38
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I get an error trying to download those pgn's lg, could you attach them?

I promise to provide some feedback, the analysis looks fascinating.
  
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lg
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #84 - 04/23/16 at 12:17:27
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and here is the other

  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #83 - 04/23/16 at 12:16:15
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Somewhile ago I have posted here some lines based on the game Farran Martos - Narciso Dublan.
Then Phil Adams (Paddy) made added soe comments and posted them here. I cannot find them; below i post one of the files (if i still know how to do this); the other comes on the next post

Anyway, i still think that after 10.Be2, O-O-O (instead of Rd8) 11.O-O 11...Kb8 (Bg4 might also work).
After 11...Kb8, there are a few lines that  are criticla and should be perhaps more completel analysed, e.g, one of them given Ametanoitos

"11...Kb8 12.a4 a5 13.d5 exd5 14.cxd5 Bc5+ 15.Kh1 Nb4 16.Bb5 Qc8 17.Qd2! and i don't like the position for Black after 17...f6 but anything else also doesn't appeal to me."

Anyway, I think Black is ok.
Going back to 10...Rd8 here is one file

  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #82 - 04/22/16 at 18:14:15
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Not to sidetrack the discussion, but if I'm thinking of the right line, isn't 12.c5! Nd5 13.Nxd5 Qxd5 14.b4! thought to be critical here? I don't have an engine, database, or board on me handy, mind you...
  
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Keano
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #81 - 04/22/16 at 11:48:16
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lg wrote on 03/20/09 at 15:04:33:
After his latest post, I have contacted JW in order to correct a
move in a variation. The  error might be have been triggered by myself.
John Watson (JW) suggested that I should add this correction in the post.
So, here I am again


In his post of the previous month JW has mentioned

 
"on 10.... Rd8 11 OO Bg4
12. Ng5 Nxc4 13. Bf2 Bxe2 14 Qxe2 Be7 15 Nxf7 Kxf7 16 Be3+ Kg8 17 Qxc4" and White is better"

I have replied sinding a line showing that perhaps Black is Ok and then, in his latest post JW has found an improvement for White.

HOWEVER, the mistake arises because I was using 16....Ke8 (instead of Kg8) in my analysis which is much better!
And the line quoted by myself on the latest post is based on using 16....Ke8 instead of Kg8.

Finally, Jw's suggestion starting with 19 b4 does not work as well since after 23 Rc7 the Black king is defending
the Black bishop on e7. I also think that 19....Qc6 might better than 19....b5 (of course, assuming Black has the
king in e8 and not in g8).

Sorry for this.



So this ...Rd8 line is still alive then?

Edit: I see now Ametanoitos has also tried to revive this discussion. I will have a look at some lines myself and get back Wink
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #80 - 07/27/15 at 22:15:19
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Sorry

I meant 17.Bxg4 instead of 17.Bxe6 in last post
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #79 - 07/27/15 at 22:11:01
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Nice game today

For several (many) moves Black played with three minor pieces against Queen

This line was analised in this post where we concluded that 14.Ng5! was hard to refute by Black;
However, the refutation analised here used 17.Bxe6.
In this game, White played the interesting 17.Nf7
I wonder what Black had prepared against 17.Bxe6
and what is the assessmente of 17. Nf7


Malakhov,Igor (2440) - Tymrakiewicz,Rafal (2306) [B03]
Czech Open 2015 Pardubice (4), 27.07.2015
[Robot 3]

1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.f4 dxe5 6.fxe5 Bf5 7.Nc3 e6 8.Nf3 Nc6 9.Be3 Qd7 10.Be2 Bg4 11.0-0 0-0-0 12.Ng5 Nxc4 13.Rxf7 Qe8 14.Nb5 Nxe3 15.Rxc7+ Kb8 16.Qb3 Bb4 17.Nf7 Bxe2 18.Rxb7+ Kxb7 19.Nbd6+ Kb6 20.Nxe8 Rhxe8 21.Nxd8 Bc4 22.Qxe3 Rxd8 23.a3 Be7 24.b4 Bd5 25.Rf1 a5 26.bxa5+ Nxa5 27.Rf7 Nc6 28.Qc3 Rd7 29.Rxg7 Ra7 30.Qb2+ Ka6 31.Rxh7 Rb7 32.Qe2+ Ka5 33.Qd2+ Ka6 34.h4 Rb3 35.h5 Bd8 36.Rg7 Bb6 37.Rg4 Nxe5 38.Qe2+ Nc4 39.h6 Rb1+ 40.Kf2 Rh1 41.Qc2 Rxh6 42.Ke2 Rf6 43.Qa4+ Na5 44.Rg5 Rf4 45.Rxd5 exd5 46.Qd7 Rxd4 47.g4 Nc4 48.Qc8+ Ka7 49.a4 Re4+ 50.Kf3 Ne5+ 51.Kg3 Rxg4+ 52.Kh3 Rxa4 53.Qe6 Ra3+ 54.Kh2 Ra2+ 55.Kh1 Ra1+ 56.Kh2 Bc7 57.Kh3 Ra3+ 58.Kg2 Ra2+ 59.Kg1 Nf3+ 60.Kf1 Bb6 61.Qd7+ Ka6 62.Qa7+ Kxa7 ½-½



  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #78 - 12/12/13 at 19:51:55
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This was a nice thread. pity we have not followed with more analysis but I understand that this is a non topical line of a nontopical defence.

A long time  ago, John Watson analised 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. c4 Nb6 4. d4 d6 5. f4 dxe5 6. fxe5 Nc6 7. Be3 Bf5 8. Nc3 e6 9. Nf3 Qd7, 10.Be2 0-0-0 11.0-0 Bg4 12.Ng5 Nxc4 13.Rxf7 Qe8 14.Nb5!?

and, I think, we came to the conclusion that White's last move was very hard for Black to deal with.

Below is a recent game on this line. Apparently White had no idea about this analysis otherwise he would have not lost so quickly. Of course, it is easy to criticize White's 14th and 15th (a blunder) when you have a computer close to you.

By the way Beletsky usually plays the Alekhine (one of his games is even in Bogdanov's book)







« Last Edit: 12/13/13 at 11:42:08 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #77 - 12/28/09 at 20:30:27
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Ametanoitos wrote on 12/28/09 at 08:00:03:
Ofcourse i see now that this position whas mentioned by lg in a discussion he had with JW who proposed 16.Be3+ Ke8 (!, lg) 17.Qxc4 and now i see that 17...Nxd4 18.Rad1 c5 is evaluated as equal by my engine.


This is one of the problems with these analysis we have been doing here.
One is time. When I saw your first message, I thought "I did something in this line, let me find time to have a look"
The other is "recollection". I saw the second message, and I did not remember that I had analised this particular version.
Perhaps someone else, Kam (?), did still more on this.

This is why a database collecting all of these "inputs" might be helpfull
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #76 - 12/28/09 at 08:00:03
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Ofcourse i see now that this position whas mentioned by lg in a discussion he had with JW who proposed 16.Be3+ Ke8 (!, lg) 17.Qxc4 and now i see that 17...Nxd4 18.Rad1 c5 is evaluated as equal by my engine.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #75 - 12/28/09 at 07:34:59
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After 10.O-O Bg4 11.Ng5 Nxc4 12.Rxf7 doesn't seem to be a problem, so we should look to 12.Bf2 now NCO gives 12...Nxd4 as unclear 13.Bxg4 Nxe5. This seems a nice OTB try for a win but it's irritating to analyse this position with an engine because it always claims a winning advantage for White and it's not easy to prove them wrong!

With the help of my favorite and new powerfull engine Robbolito i could propose 13...Be7! 14.Nxf7 Bxe2 15.Qxe2 Kxf7 16.Qxc4 Rhf8 and i think this position is nice for Black. We will play ...Kg8 and ...Rf4 if allowed to put pressure to d4. White has some strategic problems with his "bad" Bf2 and the d5 square. Ofcourse all that are of an academic value if the analysis proves an advantage for White which is not unlikely. Robbolito's first choice is 17.Rad1 Kg8 18.d5 Nxe5 19.Qb3 Qe8! with what seems to be a dymanic equal position. Also Rybka agrees with that (if we can imagine to engine's agree in human terms!).

So? Do i miss something in this 10...Rd8 variation?
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #74 - 12/28/09 at 07:06:26
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I've been following this discussion quite some time now and i wanted to participate ony after i could have a clear opinion of what is going on! Here are some of my thoughts:

8.Nc3 e6 9.Nf3 Qd7 is the line we are investigating because we want to have a good alternative to the long-tested 9...Be7.

In fact this is what i play after a discusion with GM Atalik in the Kavala Open in 2006 (a strong tournament which he eventually won) when he said to me that he doesn't trust any other line. In that tournament i played two games with 9...Bg4 following Cox's recomendation after 10.Be2 Bxf3 11.gxf3 Qh4+ 12.Bf2 Qf4 13.c5 Nd7 14.Bb5 Ne7 but neither of my opponents found (the what i concider the refutation) 15.Bxd7+ Kxd7 16.Qa4+ Nc6 (16...c6 is just worse for Black) 17.Rd1! when the miserable 17...Kc8 is forced. But Atalik said to me "what would you do if White plays 9.Be2? So i started to study 9...Be7 and i don't see a problem with this untill now

And after 10.Be2 O-O-O 11.O-O you dicussed a) 11...f6 and b)11...Kb8 and now c)11...Bg4.

The last move i like the least. Isn't the "old" line (given in NCO) 12.c5 strong? Or again isn't White just a bit better after 12.Ng5? I wouldn't be convinced to replace my 9...Be7 with 9...Qd7 and 11...Bg4

So it remains a) 11...Kb8 12.a4 a5 13.d5 exd5 14.cxd5 Bc5+ 15.Kh1 Nb4 16.Bb5 Qc8 17.Qd2! and i don't like the position for Black after 17...f6 but anything else also doesn't appeal to me.

As for b)11...f6 12.d5 Nxe5 13.Nxe5 fxe5  14.a4 Kb8 15.a5 Nc8 17.Qb3 and i like White! 17...g6 18.Ra4! and 17...Nd6 18.Na4! are both better for White!

Again i wouldn't change my 9...Be7 with 9...Qd7 10.Be2 O-O-O after the hours i've spent analysing the variations given here. But the thread is for 9...Qd7 and not for 9...Be7 so my proposal is: Maybe we should investigate 10...Rd8!? In fact this is the recomendation of the NCO. After 11.O-O Bg4 12.Ng5
  
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