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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7. (Read 30163 times)
Keano
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #88 - 05/09/16 at 18:05:13
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Well there was simply so much information in those pgn's I cannot address everything. Here's my first go addressing some of the critical lines. No doubt I have missed some things but for the moment it seems to me that Black is holding up in all lines, although for the minute 12.c5(!) seems like the way to pose most problems.

  
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Keano
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #87 - 05/06/16 at 12:30:48
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It does indeed. I'll have a look later over the weekend, thanks.
  
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lg
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #86 - 05/05/16 at 21:01:55
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Hi Keano

does this work ?

  

4PswithQd7Rd8Bg4_001.pgn ( 14 KB | 20 Downloads )
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Keano
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #85 - 05/05/16 at 20:44:38
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I get an error trying to download those pgn's lg, could you attach them?

I promise to provide some feedback, the analysis looks fascinating.
  
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lg
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #84 - 04/23/16 at 12:17:27
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and here is the other

  
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lg
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #83 - 04/23/16 at 12:16:15
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Somewhile ago I have posted here some lines based on the game Farran Martos - Narciso Dublan.
Then Phil Adams (Paddy) made added soe comments and posted them here. I cannot find them; below i post one of the files (if i still know how to do this); the other comes on the next post

Anyway, i still think that after 10.Be2, O-O-O (instead of Rd8) 11.O-O 11...Kb8 (Bg4 might also work).
After 11...Kb8, there are a few lines that  are criticla and should be perhaps more completel analysed, e.g, one of them given Ametanoitos

"11...Kb8 12.a4 a5 13.d5 exd5 14.cxd5 Bc5+ 15.Kh1 Nb4 16.Bb5 Qc8 17.Qd2! and i don't like the position for Black after 17...f6 but anything else also doesn't appeal to me."

Anyway, I think Black is ok.
Going back to 10...Rd8 here is one file

  
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TonyRo
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #82 - 04/22/16 at 18:14:15
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Not to sidetrack the discussion, but if I'm thinking of the right line, isn't 12.c5! Nd5 13.Nxd5 Qxd5 14.b4! thought to be critical here? I don't have an engine, database, or board on me handy, mind you...
  
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Keano
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #81 - 04/22/16 at 11:48:16
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lg wrote on 03/20/09 at 15:04:33:
After his latest post, I have contacted JW in order to correct a
move in a variation. The  error might be have been triggered by myself.
John Watson (JW) suggested that I should add this correction in the post.
So, here I am again


In his post of the previous month JW has mentioned

 
"on 10.... Rd8 11 OO Bg4
12. Ng5 Nxc4 13. Bf2 Bxe2 14 Qxe2 Be7 15 Nxf7 Kxf7 16 Be3+ Kg8 17 Qxc4" and White is better"

I have replied sinding a line showing that perhaps Black is Ok and then, in his latest post JW has found an improvement for White.

HOWEVER, the mistake arises because I was using 16....Ke8 (instead of Kg8) in my analysis which is much better!
And the line quoted by myself on the latest post is based on using 16....Ke8 instead of Kg8.

Finally, Jw's suggestion starting with 19 b4 does not work as well since after 23 Rc7 the Black king is defending
the Black bishop on e7. I also think that 19....Qc6 might better than 19....b5 (of course, assuming Black has the
king in e8 and not in g8).

Sorry for this.



So this ...Rd8 line is still alive then?

Edit: I see now Ametanoitos has also tried to revive this discussion. I will have a look at some lines myself and get back Wink
  
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lg
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #80 - 07/27/15 at 22:15:19
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Sorry

I meant 17.Bxg4 instead of 17.Bxe6 in last post
  
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lg
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #79 - 07/27/15 at 22:11:01
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Nice game today

For several (many) moves Black played with three minor pieces against Queen

This line was analised in this post where we concluded that 14.Ng5! was hard to refute by Black;
However, the refutation analised here used 17.Bxe6.
In this game, White played the interesting 17.Nf7
I wonder what Black had prepared against 17.Bxe6
and what is the assessmente of 17. Nf7


Malakhov,Igor (2440) - Tymrakiewicz,Rafal (2306) [B03]
Czech Open 2015 Pardubice (4), 27.07.2015
[Robot 3]

1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.f4 dxe5 6.fxe5 Bf5 7.Nc3 e6 8.Nf3 Nc6 9.Be3 Qd7 10.Be2 Bg4 11.0-0 0-0-0 12.Ng5 Nxc4 13.Rxf7 Qe8 14.Nb5 Nxe3 15.Rxc7+ Kb8 16.Qb3 Bb4 17.Nf7 Bxe2 18.Rxb7+ Kxb7 19.Nbd6+ Kb6 20.Nxe8 Rhxe8 21.Nxd8 Bc4 22.Qxe3 Rxd8 23.a3 Be7 24.b4 Bd5 25.Rf1 a5 26.bxa5+ Nxa5 27.Rf7 Nc6 28.Qc3 Rd7 29.Rxg7 Ra7 30.Qb2+ Ka6 31.Rxh7 Rb7 32.Qe2+ Ka5 33.Qd2+ Ka6 34.h4 Rb3 35.h5 Bd8 36.Rg7 Bb6 37.Rg4 Nxe5 38.Qe2+ Nc4 39.h6 Rb1+ 40.Kf2 Rh1 41.Qc2 Rxh6 42.Ke2 Rf6 43.Qa4+ Na5 44.Rg5 Rf4 45.Rxd5 exd5 46.Qd7 Rxd4 47.g4 Nc4 48.Qc8+ Ka7 49.a4 Re4+ 50.Kf3 Ne5+ 51.Kg3 Rxg4+ 52.Kh3 Rxa4 53.Qe6 Ra3+ 54.Kh2 Ra2+ 55.Kh1 Ra1+ 56.Kh2 Bc7 57.Kh3 Ra3+ 58.Kg2 Ra2+ 59.Kg1 Nf3+ 60.Kf1 Bb6 61.Qd7+ Ka6 62.Qa7+ Kxa7 ½-½



  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #78 - 12/12/13 at 19:51:55
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This was a nice thread. pity we have not followed with more analysis but I understand that this is a non topical line of a nontopical defence.

A long time  ago, John Watson analised 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. c4 Nb6 4. d4 d6 5. f4 dxe5 6. fxe5 Nc6 7. Be3 Bf5 8. Nc3 e6 9. Nf3 Qd7, 10.Be2 0-0-0 11.0-0 Bg4 12.Ng5 Nxc4 13.Rxf7 Qe8 14.Nb5!?

and, I think, we came to the conclusion that White's last move was very hard for Black to deal with.

Below is a recent game on this line. Apparently White had no idea about this analysis otherwise he would have not lost so quickly. Of course, it is easy to criticize White's 14th and 15th (a blunder) when you have a computer close to you.

By the way Beletsky usually plays the Alekhine (one of his games is even in Bogdanov's book)







« Last Edit: 12/13/13 at 11:42:08 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #77 - 12/28/09 at 20:30:27
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Ametanoitos wrote on 12/28/09 at 08:00:03:
Ofcourse i see now that this position whas mentioned by lg in a discussion he had with JW who proposed 16.Be3+ Ke8 (!, lg) 17.Qxc4 and now i see that 17...Nxd4 18.Rad1 c5 is evaluated as equal by my engine.


This is one of the problems with these analysis we have been doing here.
One is time. When I saw your first message, I thought "I did something in this line, let me find time to have a look"
The other is "recollection". I saw the second message, and I did not remember that I had analised this particular version.
Perhaps someone else, Kam (?), did still more on this.

This is why a database collecting all of these "inputs" might be helpfull
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #76 - 12/28/09 at 08:00:03
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Ofcourse i see now that this position whas mentioned by lg in a discussion he had with JW who proposed 16.Be3+ Ke8 (!, lg) 17.Qxc4 and now i see that 17...Nxd4 18.Rad1 c5 is evaluated as equal by my engine.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #75 - 12/28/09 at 07:34:59
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After 10.O-O Bg4 11.Ng5 Nxc4 12.Rxf7 doesn't seem to be a problem, so we should look to 12.Bf2 now NCO gives 12...Nxd4 as unclear 13.Bxg4 Nxe5. This seems a nice OTB try for a win but it's irritating to analyse this position with an engine because it always claims a winning advantage for White and it's not easy to prove them wrong!

With the help of my favorite and new powerfull engine Robbolito i could propose 13...Be7! 14.Nxf7 Bxe2 15.Qxe2 Kxf7 16.Qxc4 Rhf8 and i think this position is nice for Black. We will play ...Kg8 and ...Rf4 if allowed to put pressure to d4. White has some strategic problems with his "bad" Bf2 and the d5 square. Ofcourse all that are of an academic value if the analysis proves an advantage for White which is not unlikely. Robbolito's first choice is 17.Rad1 Kg8 18.d5 Nxe5 19.Qb3 Qe8! with what seems to be a dymanic equal position. Also Rybka agrees with that (if we can imagine to engine's agree in human terms!).

So? Do i miss something in this 10...Rd8 variation?
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #74 - 12/28/09 at 07:06:26
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I've been following this discussion quite some time now and i wanted to participate ony after i could have a clear opinion of what is going on! Here are some of my thoughts:

8.Nc3 e6 9.Nf3 Qd7 is the line we are investigating because we want to have a good alternative to the long-tested 9...Be7.

In fact this is what i play after a discusion with GM Atalik in the Kavala Open in 2006 (a strong tournament which he eventually won) when he said to me that he doesn't trust any other line. In that tournament i played two games with 9...Bg4 following Cox's recomendation after 10.Be2 Bxf3 11.gxf3 Qh4+ 12.Bf2 Qf4 13.c5 Nd7 14.Bb5 Ne7 but neither of my opponents found (the what i concider the refutation) 15.Bxd7+ Kxd7 16.Qa4+ Nc6 (16...c6 is just worse for Black) 17.Rd1! when the miserable 17...Kc8 is forced. But Atalik said to me "what would you do if White plays 9.Be2? So i started to study 9...Be7 and i don't see a problem with this untill now

And after 10.Be2 O-O-O 11.O-O you dicussed a) 11...f6 and b)11...Kb8 and now c)11...Bg4.

The last move i like the least. Isn't the "old" line (given in NCO) 12.c5 strong? Or again isn't White just a bit better after 12.Ng5? I wouldn't be convinced to replace my 9...Be7 with 9...Qd7 and 11...Bg4

So it remains a) 11...Kb8 12.a4 a5 13.d5 exd5 14.cxd5 Bc5+ 15.Kh1 Nb4 16.Bb5 Qc8 17.Qd2! and i don't like the position for Black after 17...f6 but anything else also doesn't appeal to me.

As for b)11...f6 12.d5 Nxe5 13.Nxe5 fxe5  14.a4 Kb8 15.a5 Nc8 17.Qb3 and i like White! 17...g6 18.Ra4! and 17...Nd6 18.Na4! are both better for White!

Again i wouldn't change my 9...Be7 with 9...Qd7 10.Be2 O-O-O after the hours i've spent analysing the variations given here. But the thread is for 9...Qd7 and not for 9...Be7 so my proposal is: Maybe we should investigate 10...Rd8!? In fact this is the recomendation of the NCO. After 11.O-O Bg4 12.Ng5
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #73 - 12/23/09 at 12:46:00
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Kam - Instead of these incredibly long posts, could you please post your analysis in a PGN attachment? Thanks Wink
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #72 - 12/23/09 at 01:43:56
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Alekine’s Defence, Four Pawns Attack with 9.Nf3 Qd7 10.Be2 0–0–0 11.0–0 Bg4 12.Ng5.
Part 3. 19.Qg4+ Kb8  20.Rad1

1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.f4 dxe5 6.fxe5 Nc6 7.Be3 Bf5 8.Nc3 e6
9.Nf3 Qd7 10.Be2 0–0–0 11.0–0 Bg4 12.Ng5 Bxe2 13.Qxe2 f6 14.exf6 gxf6
15.Nxe6 Qxe6 16.d5 Qe8 17.dxc6 Qxc6 18.b3 Re8


19.Qg4+ Kb8  20.Rad1 h5  [20...Bd6 White is able to seize the initiative with this
natural move. 21.Bd4 Be5 22.Qf3 Qe6 (22...Qd6 23.Bxe5 Qxe5 24.Qxf6 Qe3+ 25.Kh1
Rhg8 26.Rf2 Qc5 27.Rfd2 White is a pawn up.) 23.Ne4 Diagram 12.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


White has a positional advantage, because white’s central knight controls many key
squares and in particular the sensitive f6 square. The black knight counterpart  is
struggling to have any significant impact on the game.
     The f4 square is heavily guarded by white and black has no chance of advancing
the isolated f pawn.
(23.c5 Nd7 24.Bxe5 fxe5 25.c6 bxc6 26.Qf7 Qe7 27.Qxe7 Rxe7 28.Ne4 Kb7 Black is a
pawn up, but they are all isolated.) 23...Nd7 24.Bxe5 fxe5 25.Qf5 Qxf5 26.Rxf5 Re7
27.Rdf1 Kc8 28.g3 Kd8 29.h3 Rg7 30.b4 Ke7 31.R1f3 Black cannot seek for active
counter-play and waiting for white to attack is the only option.]  21.Qh5 h4
Diagram 13.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


It does seem a bit outlandish, but it seems to be okay! Note that the knight cannot get to
the critical e4 or e5 square.
A key strategic consideration is that if the h pawn is captured, black may prefer the white
queen to be at h4 than at h5, which is part of the d1-h5 diagonal and would also prevent
black playing Re2.
[21...Bd6 22.Qxf6 Rhg8 23.Nd5 Nxd5 24.cxd5 Bxh2+ 25.Kxh2 Qxf6 26.Rxf6 Rxe3 27.Rd2
Kc8 0.25,  Diagram 14.

* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


Whites position is slightly preferable, but black does have the better pawn structure.
Black should be able to hold. 22.Bxb6 axb6 23.Qxf6 Bd6 24.Nd5 b5 25.Qf3 [25.Qc3 b4
26.Qf3 h3 27.g3 Ref8 28.Qd3 Qc5+ 29.Kh1 Rf2 30.Rd2 Rxf1+ 31.Qxf1 Rf8 32.Qd3 c6
33.Nb6 Rf7 34.Na4 Qe5 35.Rd1 Bc7 36.Rc1 Rf2 –+  Diagram 15.

* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


     The threat of Rxa2 followed by the forced exchange of rooks cannot be prevented.
The white knight is on the edge of the wrong side of the board and it is unable to quickly
assist in whites defensive task.
25...bxc4 26.bxc4 Qxc4 27.Nf6 Re2  Diagram 16.

* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


Black’s immediate threat is h3. White has limited queen move options and black has the
more effective minor piece. Black’s pieces are able to side step from the invading knight,
which may at this stage of the game be suffering from agorophobia (Fear of wide open
spaces) in black’s desolate kingside quadrant.
28.Rb1 [28.Rf2 Rxf2 29.Qxf2 Rf8 30.Rf1 (30.Qf1 Qc5+ 31.Kh1 Ka7 32.Qf3 h3 –+)
30...Rf7 31.Qf3 Be5 –+] 28...c6 29.Rfd1 Kc7 Diagram 17.

* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


The position of the black king has slightly improved. The white king remains confined to
the g8 square, but white can diffuse the h3 threat by applying pressure on the c file,
followed by centralizing of the knight.
30.Rbc1 Qe6 31.Nd5+ Kb8 32.Nf4 Bxf4 33.Qxf4+ Kc8 34.Rd6 Re1+ 35.Rxe1 Qxe1+
36.Qf1 Qe3+ 37.Kh1
[37.Qf2 Qc1+ 38.Qf1 Qc5+ –+] 37...Rd8 38.Rxd8+ Kxd8 39.h3 Qd4 Diagram 18.

* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


The black king has more freedom to roam and become centralized, while the white
king is confined to the corner.
Black has a slightly better position, but the position is most likely drawn, although white
may be sweating and stressed in saving the game in an over the board situation.
(39...Kd7 40.Qf5+ Kd6 41.Qf6+ =)

Conclusions:
                      Black’s position seems to be sufficient and active counter play can be
applied. Black’s king structural weaknesses were partly compensated by the half open
g file and that black’s dark square bishop was more effective than white’s queen knight.
White had chosen the positional grinding method in the presented examples, but no
advantage could be extracted.
     Perhaps in the middle game, white should charge his queen side pawns and not
be too fussed in mangling the queenside pawn structure. I think that this would just sharpen
the game for both sides. White could also try to look for strategies, which may involve an
early exchange of queens, but this is easier said than done.



  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #71 - 12/23/09 at 01:23:36
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Alekine’s Defence, Four Pawns Attack with 9.Nf3 Qd7 10.Be2 0–0–0 11.0–0 Bg4 12.Ng5.
Part 2. 19.Qg4+ Kb8  and Two Key Twentieth Move Deviations for White.

1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.f4 dxe5 6.fxe5 Nc6 7.Be3 Bf5 8.Nc3 e6
9.Nf3 Qd7 10.Be2 0–0–0 11.0–0 Bg4 12.Ng5 Bxe2 13.Qxe2 f6 14.exf6 gxf6
15.Nxe6 Qxe6 16.d5 Qe8 17.dxc6 Qxc6 18.b3 Re8

19.Qg4+
Stepping out of the  pin without loss of tempo. 19….Kb8

Part 2a:
20.Bf2
An enthralling positional variation! 20...h5 21.Qh3 Bc5 22.a4 (22.Bxc5 Qxc5+
23.Rf2 ? 23...Re3) 22...a6 (22...Bxf2+ 23.Rxf2 Qc5 24.Qf5 Qb4 25.Qf3 Re5 26.Ne4 f5
27.Qc3 Qxc3 28.Nxc3 Re3 29.Rc1 Rf8 30.Re2 Rd3 31.Re7 f4 (31...Nd7 ! 32.Nd5 Nc5
33.b4 Nxa4 34.Nxc7 Rc8 35.Ne6 Rb3 =) 32.Rh7 Rd2) 23.a5 Nd7 (23...Nc8 Is also
playable.) 24.Nd5 Ne5
Diagram 8.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


     Black sacrifices a pawn in return for a strong attacking initiative. Noticeable is
that both of the white rooks are not developed.
25.Nxf6 Rhf8 26.Nxe8 Ng4 Trading off of the bishop at f2 and control of the g1-a7
diagonal.   27.Bxc5 Qxc5+  28.Kh1 Nf2+ 29.Rxf2 Qxf2 30.Qd3 Rxe8 31.h3 Re2
32.Rg1 Ka7 33.Qf3
(33.Qc3 h4 ! (33...Rb2 34.Qe5 c5 35.Qxh5 Rxb3 36.Rd1 Rb4
37.Qd5 Rb3 38.Qd2 Qh4 39.Qd6 Qxc4 40.Kh2 Rb2 41.Qg3 Rb4 42.Rd7 Ra4
43.Rd8 Qf4 44.Qxf4 Rxf4 45.g4 Rf7 46.g5 b5 47.h4 b4 48.g6 Rb7 49.Rd1 b3 50.h5 +-)
34.b4 Rc2 35.Qf3 Qd4 36.b5 Rxc4 37.bxa6 bxa6 38.Rb1 Rb4 39.Rf1 Qc5 40.Qa3 Rc4
41.Qa1 Rc2 42.Qd1 Qc4 43.Kh2 Rc3 A lot of shadow boxing! =) Diagram 9.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


     Black must decide whether it is safe to go for the win. Black’s passed pawn on
the c file is guaranteed safe passage, but the king would be less protected. Would a
queen exchange favour either side?
33...Qxf3 34.gxf3 Rf2 35.Rg7 (35.f4 Rxf4) 35...Rxf3 36.Kg2 Rxb3 37.Rxc7 h4
Black may have a slight advantage, but a draw is the most likely result.

Part 2b:
19.Qg4+ Kb8 20.Bxb6 axb6 21.Nd5 Rg8 ! 22.Qf3
(22.Qh5 b5 Diag 9 23.Rad1 bxc4
24.bxc4 Bd6 25.g3 Rgf8 26.Qg4 Re5 27.Qh4 f5  Diagram 10.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


     At last black pushes the f pawn and there is the threat of Bc5+ and Re2.
The blockading of the f4 square by Nf4 allows Bc5+ and an immediate loss of the
exchange. The black bishop can participate in many threats and thus it is significantly
stronger than the white centralized knight.
28.Kh1 Re2 29.Rc1 Qe8 30.Nc3 Rd2 31.Qg5 f4 Adv Bl) 22...f5 23.Qxf5 Bc5+
24.Kh1 Re2 25.g4 Qd6 26.Nf4 Re5 27.Qc2 Rxg4 28.Rad1 Reg5 29.Qe4 Ka7
  Ad Bl
Diagram 11.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


Black is now threatening the decisive Qxd1 followed by mate in four.
30.Nh3 Rxe4 31.Rxd6 Rh5 32.Rd3 Re2 33.Rg3 Rxa2 Ŧ
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #70 - 12/23/09 at 00:39:35
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Alekine’s Defence, Four Pawns Attack with 9.Nf3 Qd7 10.Be2 0–0–0 11.0–0 Bg4
12.Ng5. Part 1.

1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.f4 dxe5 6.fxe5 Nc6 7.Be3 Bf5 8.Nc3 e6
9.Nf3 Qd7 10.Be2 0–0–0 11.0–0 Bg4 12.Ng5 Bxe2 13.Qxe2 f6 14.exf6 gxf6
15.Nxe6 Qxe6 16.d5 Qe8 17.dxc6 Qxc6 18.b3
Diagram 1.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

This move was mentioned in the March 1.e4  2009 Watson post and the above position
was assessed as apparently a small advantage for white.
     I have several reasons for analyzing this line.
This nonstandard Alekine 4 Pawns Attack position (what ever that means!?)
has current theoretical relevance and it is not easily avoidable by black.
The position may look a bit dubious for black due to the unconnected king side
pawns, but the white king is in the firing line of a half open g file. An assessment
of the advantages and disadvantages this visually deceptive position would be
valuable, especially for me! It may be just due to my personality, but psychologically,
if no significant pawn move has occurred within a 15 move period in an open position,
I begin to feel that either excessive shadow boxing has occurred or that the pieces
are just aimlessly moving in circles!
The alternative continuation  18. Bxb6 axb6  19. Nd5 b5 is also good for white, but black
is okay. 18...Re8   Black should try to avoid the exchange of pieces unless there is
a move which involves a king side pawn recapture and the uniting of black’s kingside
isolated pawns. A queen swap at this stage of the game is almost catastrophic for
black. A potential weapon in black’s arsenal is the strategic advance of the h pawn, which
can be used as a deflecting tool.
Such an advanced isolated pawn cannot avoid inevitable capture by the white
knight, but many moves may be required. A knight on the edge of the board may not be
a great idea if black can attack a weakness on the other flank. White may try to
capture the pawn with a rook, but a rook at h4 or h3 may allow black’s rooks to gain
control of the seventh rank.
An intriguing mini-battle is the skirmish between the white knight at c3 and
the undeveloped black dark square bishop. The optimum deployment of the white knight
is dependent on the position of the developed bishop. Black wants to develop the bishop
after the white knight has been move. The best square for the black bishop is dependent
on whether the white knight is at d5, e4, b5 or c3.
My investigation after 18… Re8 is divided into three sections.

Part 1: 19.Rae1

Part 2a: 19.Qg4+ Kb8  20.Bf2
Part 2b: 19.Qg4+ Kb8  20.Bxb6

Part 3: 19.Qg4+ Kb8  20.Rad1

Part 1: 19.Rae1

The move 19.Rae1 is a serious alternative is and black must pursue an
exchange sacrifice line. Diagram 2.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


19...Rxe3 20.Qg4+ Kb8 21.Rxe3 Bc5 22.Nd1 Re8 23.Rfe1 Nd7 ((a).23...Bxe3+ 24.
Rxe3 Qc5 25.b4 Qf8 26.a3 f5 27.Qf4 Rd8 28.Nc3 Qd6 =; b)23...Qd6 24.Qf3 Re5 25.Kf1
Bxe3 26.Nxe3 Qd2 27.Re2 Qd3 28.Kf2 f5  Diagram 3.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

The pawn steps into a line of protection and establishes a struggle for the g4 square.
White could try to chase after the weak h7 pawn, but allowing of the  centralizing of the
black queen has serious consequences. ie. 29. Qh5 Qd4  30.Qxh7 f4  31.Qh8+ Nc8 
32.Qxe5 Qxe5 33.Nd5 Qf5  34.Re8 b5 -+ White is  unable to counter against a
more threatening pin on the knight followed by an advance of a pawn.   Black’s
structurally weak kingside pawns are not so gettable, provided that black has sufficient
control of the centre.
29.Qf4 Nd7 30.Re1 Qd2+ 31.Kf1 Kc8 32.Qg3 Qd3+ 33.Re2 Re8 34.Qf3 c6 35.Nc2
Qd1+ 36.Re1 Rxe1+ 37.Nxe1 Qb1 38.a3 Qb2 39.a4 a5 40.Qd3 f4 41.Nf3 Qc1+
42.Ne1 h5 43.Qf3 h4 44.Qe4 Qc3 45.Nd3 Qc2 46.Qe2 Qb1+ 47.Kf2 b6 =) 
Diagram 4.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


Black’s isolated advanced kingside pawns do temporally tie down white’s king side.
However, black must find ways to apply pressure on white’s main weakness, which is
the b3 pawn.
24.Qf5 Qd6 25.Qd5 Qe7 26.Kh1 Bxe3 27.Rxe3 Ne5 28.Nf2 Rd8 29.Qa5 Qg7 30.Re1 h5
Sl Adv B Diagram 5.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


     At least one pawn should charge down the king side to prevent g4 and eventually
g3. The h pawn does the attacking while the f6 pawn bolsters up the position of the knight
at e5. 31.Ne4 Qg6 32.h3 Nd3 33.Qd2 Rd4 34.Ng3 c5 Diagram 6.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


A multipurpose move, which removes the back rank mate threat, activates an attack on
the white knight and sets up a discovered attack on the white queen.
     Black can now be less adverse to a queen swap since whites queen side pawns
have restricted mobility. Black should be able to exchange off his weak king side pawns
for whites pawns on the queen side.
35.Re3 h4 36.Nf1 Ne5 37.Qe2 a6 38.Kh2 Ka7 39.Nd2 Nd3 40.Qf3 f5 41.Kh1 Nb4 42.Nf1
Qg5 43.Qe2 Nc6 44.Nd2 Qd8 45.Nf1 f4 46.Re8 Qg5 47.Rf8 Ne5 48.a3 Qg7
(48...f3
49.gxf3 Nd3 50.Qe8 Nf4 51.Rg8 Qf5 52.Qf8 Qxh3+ 53.Kg1 Ne6 only sl Ad B) 49.Re8
Nd3 50.Re7 f3 51.gxf3 Qg5 52.Re4 Nf4
Diagram 7.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


The white queen becomes overworked and white is forced to sacrifice the exchange.
53. Re5 loses to 53….Qf6  54.Qe3 Qg7-+  or  54.Qe1 Nd3 -+
     Along the e file, there is a choice of only two queen moves, which can be used to
protect the rook, but both of them are not viable. Let’s see why. The white queen cannot
protect simultaneously the g2 square and rook.
53.Qf2 Rd1 54.Rxf4 Qxf4 55.Qxc5+ Kb8 56.Kg2 Rd3 57.Qh5 Rxb3 58.Qg4 Qxg4+
59.hxg4 Rxa3 –+






  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #69 - 12/23/09 at 00:32:49
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Alekine’s Defence, Four Pawns Attack.  9….Qd7   17…Nf5!  Improvement for White by
Ig and Counter Improvement by Black.  (Republished from 19th June 2009)

1. e4 Nf6  2. e5 Nd5  3. d4 d6  4. c4 Nb6  5. f5 dxe5  6. fxe5 Nc6  7. Be3 Bf5 
8. Nc3 e6  9. Nf3 Qd7  10. Be2 O-O-O  11. O-O  Bg4   12. Ng5
(12. c5 is
the main continuation) Bxe2  13. Qxe2 f6  14. exf6 gxf6 
15. Rxf6 Nxd4  16. Qf2 Be7  17. Rf7 Nf5! 18. Bc5
  Diagram 1.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


18… Bxc5 ! Previously, I considered
18…h6 was sound, but Ig mentions the continuation 19.Bxe7 hxg5  20.Bxd8!
Qxf7 [20...Qxd8 21.Nb5 +-] 21.Bxg5  Diagram 2.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


White seems to gain the advantage in all lines. The best continuation for black seems
to be  21...Qg7 (The reflex 21. … Nxc4? succumbs to a volley of queen moves
22. Qxh7 Qh5  23. Bf4 e5  24. Qa8+ Kd725.Qa4+ Kc8 26.Qxc4 exf4 27.Qxf4±)
22.h4 Nxc4 23.Re1 Nxb2 (23.... Qd7  24.Ne4 (24.Rd1 Qc6 25.g4 Nfd6 26.Qxa7?!
Nb6 27.Rf1 Qc4 28.Rf4 Qd3=)
24...b6 25.g4 Nfd6 26.Nf6 Qb5 27.b3 +- 27...Na5 28.Rxe6 +-; 21...Rf8 22.Rf1] 22.c5 Nc4
23.c6 ± White is a pawn up and has a superior position) 24.Rxe6 Qd4 25.Qxd4 Nxd4
26.Re4 Nf5 27.Rf4 Nd6 28.g4 Nd3 29.Rd4 Nc5 30.Bf6 Re8 31.h5 Nce4 32.Nxe4 Nxe4
33.Bh4 c5 34.Ra4 Kd7 35.h6+- The white rook is very active and thus white’s kingside 
pawns are too advanced. Diagram 3.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

19.Qxc5 Qd6 ! The move is resilient and tenacious. The high level of intensity is
maintained. (Crucial, if black desperately needs to win the game.) Diagram 4.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


Black has another choice, 19.... Qd4+ but it is not as defiant. 20.Qxd4  White is forced
to exchange queens, but black is fighting for equality and black has little chance of
winning against best play. 20…. Nxd4 21.Nb5 !  e5 (21...Nxb5 22.cxb5 e5 23.Nxh7 Rd2
24.Nf6 Nd7 25.Nxd7±) 22.Nxd4 !  (22.Nxa7+ Kb8 23.Nb5 Nxc4 24.Rxc7 Ne3
25.Rc5 Rhg8 26.Rxe5 Nxb5 27.Rxb5 h6  White has played some nice rook manouvres,
but black is now able to grab the initiative due to better coordination of the knight and rooks.

28.Ne4 Rxg2+ 29.Kh1 Rd4 30.Rb3 Rxe4 31.Rxe3 Rxh2+ 32.Kxh2 Rxe3 33.Rg1 Re2+
34.Rg2 Rxg2+ 35.Kxg2 Kc7 36.Kf3 Kd6 37.Kg4 Kd5 38.Kh5 Kd4 39.Kxh6 Kd3 40.Kg5 Kc2
41.Kf6 Kxb2 42.Ke5 b5 43.Kd5 b4 44.Kc4 Ka3 45.Kb5 =)
22.... exd4 23. b3 Rd7 24.c5 ! 24...Nd5  Diagram 5.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


25.Rxd7 Kxd7 26.Rd1 Kc6 27.Rxd4 Kxc5 28.Rh4 h6 29.Nf7 Rf8 30.Ne5 Re8
31.Nd3+ Kb5 32.a4+ Ka5 33.Rxh6 Re3 34.Rh3 Rxh3 35.gxh3 b5 36.axb5 Kxb5
37.Kg2 c5 White was able to preserve his pawn advantage, but black should be able to draw.

20.Nxe6 (20.Nce4 Qd4+ 21.Qxd4 Nxd4 22.c5 Nc4 23.b3 h6 24.Nxe6 Nxe6 25.bxc4
Rd4 26.Re1 Rxc4 27.Nd2 Rf4 28.Rxf4 Nxf4 =
Black has a superior pawn structure, but the white rook can be more active.)
20...Qxc5+ 21.Nxc5 Nd6 22.Re7 Nbxc4  23.b3 Nf5 24.Re2 Nce3 25.Rae1 b6
26.Ne6 Rd3 27.Ne4 Nd5
(27...Re8 28.Nf2 Rc3 29.g4∞) 28.g4 Rg8 Diagram 6.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


29.Kh1 Nd4 30.Nxd4 Rxd4 31.g5 c5 32.Nd6+ Kd7 33.Nf5 Rd3 34.Nh6 Rg7
35.Ng4 Kc7 36.Re5 Rf7 37.Re6 Rdf3  38.Kg1 R3f4 39.h3 a5 40. R1e5 R7f5 =
   
Diagram 7.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


The position is dynamic and evenly balanced. White has 2 pawn islands against black’s
slightly better pawn structure, which is a single pawn and chain of three connected pawns.
Black has realistic chances to play for a win.


Conclusions:
The 17… Nf5! line seems playable, but after 18. Bc5 regrettably 18….h6?! is bad due to
19. Bxe7 hxg5  20 Bxd8! Qxf7  21. Bxg5± (Ig).  The intriguing queen exchange sacrifice,
mentioned in my previous post  now seems destined for theoretical oblivion.
The continuation 18 Bc5 Bxc5  19.Qxc5 Qd6! is best for black, but 19 …. Qd4+ is also playable.

  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #68 - 06/20/09 at 18:57:17
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Dear Kam and chessfriends,

I finally got around to looking at Kam's 13...f6 idea.  For starters I looked at 14.exf6 gxf6 15.Nxe6, and it doesn't look very good for Black.  15...Qxe6 16.d5 Qe8 17.dxc6 Qxc6 18.b3 and I fail to see what Black has to compensate for his weak f-pawn.  Perhaps Black can draw, but to play such a position is not my ambition when I play 1...Nf6.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #67 - 06/19/09 at 16:19:11
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Kam

as always, thanks for your interesting analysis
by the way, the two last diagrams are also quite "pretty" if
one looks at the way the pieces are on the board
  
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Alekine 4PA  9...Qd7.  17...Nf5! Improvements-1
Reply #66 - 06/19/09 at 13:05:16
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ALEKINES DEF. 4 PAWNS ATTACK.  9… Qd7  17….Nf5! IMPROVEMENT FOR
WHITE BY IG AND COUNTER IMPROVEMENT BY BLACK.


1. e4 Nf6  2. e5 Nd5  3. d4 d6  4. c4 Nb6  5. f5 dxe5  6. fxe5 Nc6  7. Be3 Bf5  8. Nc3 e6  9. Nf3 Qd7  
10. Be2 O-O-O  11. O-O  Bg4   12. Ng5 (12. c5 is the main continuation) Bxe2  13. Qxe2 f6  14. exf6 gxf6  
15. Rxf6 Nxd4  16. Qf2 Be7  17. Rf7 Nf5! 18. Bc5



18… Bxc5 !  Previously, I considered
18…h6 was sound, but Ig mentions the continuation 19.Bxe7 hxg5  20.Bxd8! Qxf7 [20...Qxd8 21.Nb5 +-] 21.Bxg5
White seems to gain the advantage in all lines. The best continuation for black seems to be  



21...Qg7 (The reflex 21. … Nxc4? succumbs to a volley of queen moves
22. Qxh7 Qh5  23. Bf4 e5  24. Qa8+ Kd7
25.Qa4+ Kc8 26.Qxc4 exf4 27.Qxf4±)
22.h4 Nxc4 23.Re1 Nxb2 (23.... Qd7  24.Ne4 (24.Rd1 Qc6 25.g4 Nfd6 26.Qxa7?! Nb6 27.Rf1 Qc4 28.Rf4 Qd3=)
24...b6 25.g4 Nfd6 26.Nf6 Qb5 27.b3 +- 27...Na5 28.Rxe6 +-; 21...Rf8 22.Rf1] 22.c5 Nc4 23.c6 ± White is a pawn up
and has a superior position) 24.Rxe6 Qd4 25.Qxd4 Nxd4 26.Re4 Nf5 27.Rf4 Nd6 28.g4 Nd3 29.Rd4 Nc5 30.Bf6 Re8
31.h5 Nce4 32.Nxe4 Nxe4 33.Bh4 c5 34.Ra4 Kd7 35.h6+- The white rook is very active and thus white’s kingside
pawns are too advanced.




19.Qxc5 Qd6 !  The move is resilient and tenacious. The high level of intensity is maintained. (Crucial, if black
desperately needs to win the game.)



Black has another choice, 19.... Qd4+ but it is not as defiant. 20.Qxd4  White is forced to exchange queens,
but black is fighting for equality and black has little chance of winning against best play. 20…. Nxd4 21.Nb5 !
21...e5 (21...Nxb5 22.cxb5 e5 23.Nxh7 Rd2 24.Nf6 Nd7 25.Nxd7±) 22.Nxd4 !  (22.Nxa7+ Kb8 23.Nb5 Nxc4 24.Rxc7 Ne3
25.Rc5 Rhg8 26.Rxe5 Nxb5 27.Rxb5 h6  White has played some nice rook manouvres, but black is now able to grab the
initiative due to better coordination of the knight and rooks.

28.Ne4 Rxg2+ 29.Kh1 Rd4 30.Rb3 Rxe4 31.Rxe3 Rxh2+ 32.Kxh2 Rxe3 33.Rg1 Re2+ 34.Rg2 Rxg2+ 35.Kxg2 Kc7 36.Kf3 Kd6
37.Kg4 Kd5 38.Kh5 Kd4 39.Kxh6 Kd3 40.Kg5 Kc2 41.Kf6 Kxb2 42.Ke5 b5 43.Kd5 b4 44.Kc4 Ka3 45.Kb5 =)
22.... exd4 23. b3 Rd7 24.c5 ! 24...Nd5


25.Rxd7 Kxd7 26.Rd1 Kc6 27.Rxd4 Kxc5 28.Rh4 h6 29.Nf7 Rf8 30.Ne5 Re8 31.Nd3+ Kb5 32.a4+ Ka5 33.Rxh6 Re3 34.Rh3 Rxh3 35.gxh3 b5 36.axb5 Kxb5 37.Kg2 c5 White was able to preserve his pawn advantage, but black should be able to draw.

20.Nxe6 (20.Nce4 Qd4+ 21.Qxd4 Nxd4 22.c5 Nc4 23.b3 h6 24.Nxe6 Nxe6 25.bxc4 Rd4 26.Re1 Rxc4 27.Nd2 Rf4 28.Rxf4 Nxf4 =
Black has a superior pawn structure, but the white rook can be more active.) 20...Qxc5+ 21.Nxc5 Nd6 22.Re7 Nbxc4
23.b3 Nf5 24.Re2 Nce3 25.Rae1 b6 26.Ne6 Rd3 27.Ne4 Nd5 (27...Re8 28.Nf2 Rc3 29.g4∞) 28.g4 Rg8




29.Kh1 Nd4 30.Nxd4 Rxd4 31.g5 c5 32.Nd6+ Kd7 33.Nf5 Rd3 34.Nh6 Rg7 35.Ng4 Kc7 36.Re5 Rf7 37.Re6 Rdf3
38.Kg1 R3f4 39.h3 a5 40. R1e5 R7f5 =



The position is dynamic and evenly balanced. White has 2 pawn islands against black’s slightly better pawn structure,
which is a single pawn and chain of three connected pawns.
Black has realistic chances to play for a win.


Conclusions:
The 17… Nf5! line seems playable, but after 18. Bc5 regrettably 18….h6?! is bad due to 19. Bxe7 hxg5  20 Bxd8! Qxf7  
21. Bxg5± (Ig).  The intriguing queen exchange sacrifice, mentioned in my previous post  now seems destined for theoretical
oblivion.
The continuation 18 Bc5 Bxc5  19.Qxc5 Qd6! is best for black, but 19 …. Qd4+ is also playable.


  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #65 - 06/01/09 at 19:15:47
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Kam
Two more things

i) In your line

12. Ng5 Bxe2  13. Qxe2 f6  14. exf6 gxf6  15. Rxf6 (15. Nf3 and 15. Nxe6 can also be considered) Nxd4  16. Qf2 Be7  17. Rf7 Nf5! 18. Bc5 h6  19. Bxe7 hxg5 20. Qc5 g4! with
21 Rd1 you have suggested the Queen sacrifice
21. ...Qxd1 22. Nxd1 Rxd1+ 23. Kf2 Kd7 etc
Why not ?
23... g3+ 24. hxf3 Rf1! (Rook sacrifice) 25. Kxf1 Nxg3+ 25. Ke1 Rh1+
26. Kd2 Ne4+ which seems to lead to equality even more quickly and
in a prettier way

ii) I also think that afte
12. Ng5 Bxe2  13. Qxe2 f6  14. exf6 gxf6  15. Rxf6 (15. Nf3 and 15. Nxe6 can also be considered) Nxd4  16. Qf2 Be7  17. Rf7 Nf5! 18. Bc5 h6  19. Bxe7 hxg5 20. Qc5 g4! you may consider also (besides your 4
alternatives)
21 Nb5 followed by Bd6

best, lg
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #64 - 06/01/09 at 18:43:11
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Kam

After

12. Ng5 Bxe2  13. Qxe2 f6  14. exf6 gxf6  15. Rxf6 (15. Nf3 and 15. Nxe6 can also be considered) Nxd4  16. Qf2 Be7  17. Rf7 Nf5! 18. Bc5 h6  19. Bxe7 hxg5 
what do you have against 20 Bxd8 (instead of Qc5) Qxf7 21 Bxg5
and if 20... Qg7 21 h4.

  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #63 - 06/01/09 at 14:26:33
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ALEKINES DEFENCE, FOUR PAWNS ATTACK WITH 9.....Qd7  10. Be2 O-O-O  
11. O-O Bg4  12. Ng5... and 17. .... Nf5!  AN IMPROVEMENT FOR BLACK AND A
CLEVER EXCHANGE SACRIFICE.


1. e4 Nf6  2. e5 Nd5  3. d4 d6  4. c4 Nb6  
5. f5 dxe5  6. fxe5 Nc6  7. Be3 Bf5  8. Nc3 e6  9. Nf3 Qd7  10. Be2 O-O-O  11. O-O  Bg4  



11…. Kb8 has also been discussed in the forum by Ig, Markovich and Bueker, but I think the text is more aggressive and dynamic.
12. Ng5  (12.c5 is considered the main move and a possible continuation is 12…. Nd5 13. Nxd5 Qxd5  14. b4 Qe4 etc.) Bxe2  13. Qxe2 f6  14. exf6 gxf6  15. Rxf6 (15. Nf3 and 15. Nxe6 can also be considered) Nxd4  16. Qf2 Be7  17. Rf7 Nf5!



This move provides important dynamic opportunities. 18. Bc5  (White could try  
18. Bxb6 axb6  19. Nxe6 Bxc5  20. Qxc5 bxc5  21. Rxd7 Rxd7  22. Nd5 b6 Slight Ŧ)





Black had previously followed 17…. Nc6
18. Bc5 Bxc5  19. Qxc5 Qd4+ (Proposed by Bueker and it is better than the more aggressive, but losing 19…. Qd2, which was investigated by Watson)  A possible continuation is  20.Qxd4 Nxd4  21.Nb5 e5  22.Rxc7+ Kb8  23. Nxd4 exd4  24.Rc5 Na4  25.Rb5 Rhe8  26. Rd1 d3 27. Rd2 Re2  28. Rxe2 dxe2  29. Kf2 Re8 30. Ke1 a6  31.Rb3  Black is a pawn down and it will be difficult to save the game. There may be some improvements for black.



18. ... h6  19. Bxe7 hxg5  20. Qc5 g4!  




The participation of this solo pawn attack has changed whites assessment of the black king side offensive from “okay to ignore” to a highly serious threat. The white queen now has restricted attacking versitility, because the safe guarding of the f2 square and preventing the transition Qd4 + is essential. White's intentions of using the queen to probe black's queen side pawn structure and cause weaknesses, or to launch an ambitious queen side pawn storm are now a distant passing thought.

21. Rd1 Four other alternatives are worthy of considering.

a) 21. b3 (perhaps best) g3  22. h3 Kb8   23. Bxd8 Qxf7  24. Rd1 Nd5 25. cxd5 Rxd8  26. dxe6 Rxd1+  27. Nxd1 Qxe6   28. Rf8+ Qc8  29. Qxc8 Kxc8 30. Nc3 Kd7  31. Kf1 a5  32. Ke2 Nh4  33. Ne4 Nxg2  34. Kf3 Nf4  35. Kxg3 Nd3 I think that black should be able to draw.)




b) 21. Rf1! g3  22.h3 Kb8!  23.Bxd8 Qxf7  24.Rd1 Nd6! (An extremely difficult move to find! The knight move threatens the capture of the c pawn, blocks the d file and thus threatens the capture of the bishop on the back rank, and also opens the threat of Rh5. What more would you want to expect from a knight?!)  25.Bxc7+ Qxc7  26.Qxd6 Nxc4 27. Qxc7+ Kxc7  28.Re1 Rh6  29.Ne2 Nxb2
30. Rc1+ Kb8  30.Nxg3 Rh4 =



c) 21. Ne4 Kb8  22.Nf6 Qd4+  23.Qxd4 Rxd4
24.b3 Nd7  25. Nxd7+ Rxd7  26.Bf6 Rxd7
27. Bxh8 Kc8  28.Re1 Kd7  29.Be5 Nd6
30. Re3 Rf5  31. h3 gxh3  32.gxh3 Nf7=




d) 21. g3? Qd2  22. Bh4 Nd7  23.Qxa7 Nb6!
24.c5 Qe3+  25.Kf1 Rd2  26. Rxc7+ Kxc7
27. cxb6+ Kc6  28. Qa4+ Kxb6  29. Qb3+ Kc6
30.Qc4+ Kd7 31. Ne4  (31. Qa4+ Kc7  32.Nb5+ Kb8 -+) Rf8 32. Bf6 Nd6 -+
The black king had to escape from the
harassing checks, but was able to succeed and win.



21. ... Qxd1! Black forces the exchange sacrifice. 22. Nxd1 Rxd1  23. Kf2 Rd7





24. Rf8+   ( 24. Rxf5 exf5  25. Qxf5 Nxc4 26. b3 Nb6  27. Qxg4 Kb8  28. Bc5 Rxh2  29. Qg8+ Nc8  30. Kf3 a5  31. a3 Rh5 Black is okay.)




24. ... Rxf8  25. Bxf8 g3+!


This intermezzo pawn check is essential, because white is now forced to endure doubled kingside pawns. Black could try to hang on to this pawn, but my analysis shows that this alternative plan is futile.  eg.   25. ... Rf7  26. Qa3 Nd6+ 27. Ke2 Ndxc4   28. Qc5 Nxb2   29. Bg7 N2c4   30. Qh5 Nd6  31. Qxg4 Black is in trouble, due to the presence of the connected, passed kingside pawn roller and additional bishop.



26. hxg3 Rf7  27. Ke1 Nd7  28. Qxa7 Rxf8  29. g4 Nh4   30. Qa8+ Nb8 31. Ke2 Nxg2  32. Qa5 c6  33. Qg5 Nd7 Ŧ   White is in trouble.




Black’s strategy is  1) Utilize the rook for its long range capabilities and thus a) Supporting of the centralized knights or isolated e pawn, b) keeping watch of whites passed g pawn and c) restricting of the movements of the king.  2) Centralizing of the knights in order to assist in the promotion of the central isolated pawn,  3) Calculated pushing of the pawn and 4) minimizing of possible checks from the white queen.

34. Qg7 e5  35. g5 Nf4+  36. Ke3 Ne6 37. Qg6 Nd4  38. Qh7 Nf5+  39. Kd2 e4
40. g6 e3+  41. Ke2 Re8  42. Qf7 Nd4+
43. Ke1 Rd8  44. g7 Ne5  45. g8(Q) Nef3+
46. Kf1 e2+



47. Kg2 Rxg8+  48. Qxg8+ Kc7 49. Qg7+ Kb6  50.c5+ Ka5 -+ The promotion of the e pawn cannot be prevented.


  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #62 - 04/22/09 at 13:53:15
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Markovich

Many thanks for your comments. I think you mean Qg4 instead of Qg5, right?.
This has been my pet line for a long time and I also have lots of analysis with Qc2 instead of Qg4. Black equalizes quite easily.
The reason for examining Qc2, as an alternative to Qg4, is that Qg4 allows h5 followed by h4 and one sees at once that White's king starts to be unsafe. However, Black is also Ok after Qc2.

I still wonder why Miles thought that 12. ....Bb4 (after 12. a5) was critical.

By the way, the last sequence of messages between Stefan and myself
have considered 12. a4 a5 13. Qb3 (his idea, and instead of 13. d5 which forces a sequence of moves) which also looks interesting and might need more analysis.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #61 - 04/22/09 at 13:10:26
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I've been checking the analysis of lg and Stefan here, and I'm starting to think that 11...Kg8 12.a4 a5 may be all right for Black.  I have little to contribute, but I did look at Qc2 instead of Qg4 (on move 22) and concluded that Black is all right there.  As observed by others, one thing you notice in these lines is the contrast in king safety.  
« Last Edit: 04/22/09 at 14:15:46 by Markovich »  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #60 - 04/04/09 at 00:21:53
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Stefan

Thanks for your comments. Sorry for the late responde but I have been traveling. I am including an old answer to one of your posts,
on

"Many thanks for these details and for the nice NICMagazine source. I didn't check Bb4 further, but 12.a4 a5 looks fine. In any case Black replies 22...Bxf7, and in the resulting position with bishops on squares of opposite colours Black's king is often safe on a7, while the Bc5 is a strong piece. White even has to be cautious... After both 22.Qc2 Bxf7 23.Rxf7 Rd4 and 22.Qg4 Bxf7 23.Rxh7 h5 24.Qe2 h4 25.h3 (your line) 25...Rd4 26. e6 Re4 27.Qd3 Re3 28.Qd5 Qxd5 29.Bxd5 Rd8 30.Bf3 Rxe6 31.Rxb7+ Kc8 32.Rxg7 Re7 =, Black has nothing to fear.2

What I have to say does not change the assessment that Black is Ok,
but for completeness here are a few things:
i) After 22.Qg4 Bxf7 23.Rxh7 h5 24.Qe2 h4 25.h3 Rd4 White may also try 26. Re1 (to prevent Re4) Bb4 27. Bb5 Qd5 28. Rd7 Qxd7! 29. Bxd7 Bxe1 30. Qxe1 (30. e6? Bg3 31. e7? Rxd7 32. e8Q+ Rxe8 33. Qxe8 Kc7 34. Qe2 Rd5! -+ illustrating what you said that White should be even cautious) Rxd7 = Black has two rooks for the Queen
and the e5 pawn will fall.
ii) After 22. Qg4 I agree that 22. .... Bxf7 is the safer line But I also
had some fun lines with 22. ... h5 ?! which by the way, I am not sure gives equality to Black. But it also illustrates that newss some caution.
After 22. ... h5 we  have 23. Nxd8 hxg4 24. Nxc6+ Bxc6 (Black is
an exchange down) 25. Rf4 ?! g3 26 h4 g5 27. Rg4 gxh4 28. Bb5 Bd5 = since I dint see what White can do to win and it is completely tied down. However, I think that 25 Be6 g3 26. h3 Bd4 27. Rad1 might be better and here I am not seeing how Black can equalize.

I hope to get back to you with your new analysis.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #59 - 03/31/09 at 22:55:15
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Hello lg,
Your analysis looks convincing. 14...Qe7 is logical, preventing Nh4. If 15.Ne1, which you mention as an alternative, Black might try 15...f6 16.exf6 gxf6 17.c5 Nc8 18.Bf3 Qe8 19.Nb5 Qg6 20.Nd3 Bxd3 21.Rxd3 Ne5 22.Rdd1 Nxf3+ 23.Rxf3 e5 24.d5 Rhg8 =.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #58 - 03/30/09 at 17:38:39
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Stefan,

After 11...Kb8 12.a4 a5 13.Qb3 Bb4! 14.Rad1

perhaps 14....Qe7 15. c5 (Ne1 intending Nc2/d3 targeting the bishop
might be interesting) Nd5 16. Nxd5 Rxd5 17 Bb5 (Bc4 at once !?) Na7
(maybe 17... Ka7, intending Rb8 if White plays 18. Bxc6 bxc6) 18. Bc4
(18. Bd2 (or 18. Bg5 f6 19. Bd2) Bxd2 19. Rxd2 Nxb5 20 axb5 b6)
Rdd8 19. Ng5 Bg6 20. Be2 (20. Bd3 Bh5 21. Nf3 f6) might be playable
for Black.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #57 - 03/28/09 at 17:47:58
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lg wrote on 03/28/09 at 15:47:02:
12...Bb4 13.Qb3 f6 14.Rfd1 Black can play 14.... a5. Even, after
14....Ba5 and for the same of continuing ot exchange, I still see Black in the game. For instance,
12...Bb4 13.Qb3 f6 14.Rfd1 Ba5 15 exf6 gxf6 16. Nh4 Bg6 17. Bf3
Qe8 18 Nxg6 hxg6 19 Ne4 e5 ! 20 d5 (Nxf6 Qe7 may transpose) Nd4
21 Bxd4 exd4 22 Nxf6 Qe5 23 Ng4 Qd6 and Black has some chances
on the kingside, no?

Going back to another line proposed, earlier on, by yourself,
12. a4 a5 13. Qb3, it appears that Black can play 13....Nb4 at once
and White has no time to play Rad1 and Rd2. 13...Bb4 14. Rfd1 f6
transposes to aline mentioned above, but with this move order, 14. Rad1 may be better.

Many thanks for the valuable hints. Would you agree that this is the main line after 11...Kb8:

12.a4 a5

Or 12....Bb4 13.Qb3 a5! transposing. If 13...f6?! 14.Rfd1 Ba5 15 exf6 gxf6 16. Nh4 Bg6 17. Bf3 Qe8 18 Nxg6 hxg6, instead of 19.Ne4 the alternative 19.Bf2 looks dangerous.

13.Qb3 Bb4!

After 13...Nb4 14.Rac1 Black still has to find a plan against Rfd1 and a later d5. I can't say that I trust Black's position.

14.Rad1

Your move, more precise than 14.Rfd1 f6 15.Nb5 Qf7, about =.
How would you assess the position after 14.Rad1?
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #56 - 03/28/09 at 15:47:02
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"I apologize for the confusion. What I meant was 12...Bb4 13.Qb3 Ba5 14.Rfd1 f6 15.exf6 gxf6 16.Nh4 Ne7 etc. The two forgotten moves (bold print) now left Bb4 apparently unprotected.
Against 13...f6 I intended 14.Rfd1, which after 14...Ba5 transposes to my (intended) line. If then 15.exf6 gxf6 16.Nh4 Bg6 17.Bf3, White's attack against Black's queenside seems to be hard to meet. "

Ok, thanks. However after

12...Bb4 13.Qb3 f6 14.Rfd1 Black can play 14.... a5. Even, after
14....Ba5 and for the same of continuing ot exchange, I still see Black in the game. For instance,
12...Bb4 13.Qb3 f6 14.Rfd1 Ba5 15 exf6 gxf6 16. Nh4 Bg6 17. Bf3
Qe8 18 Nxg6 hxg6 19 Ne4 e5 ! 20 d5 (Nxf6 Qe7 may transpose) Nd4
21 Bxd4 exd4 22 Nxf6 Qe5 23 Ng4 Qd6 and Black has some chances
on the kingside, no?

Going back to another line proposed, earlier on, by yourself,
12. a4 a5 13. Qb3, it appears that Black can play 13....Nb4 at once
and White has no time to play Rad1 and Rd2. 13...Bb4 14. Rfd1 f6
transposes to aline mentioned above, but with this move order, 14. Rad1 may be better.


  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #55 - 03/28/09 at 12:54:53
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lg wrote on 03/28/09 at 12:01:55:
ii) Against 12...Bb4, White can also consider 13.Qb3 f6 (Ba5 is recommended by John watson) 14.exf6 gxf6 15.Nh4. Here Stefan mentions  Ne7 and points out that (15...Bg6 16.Bf3) .
If think that 15....Bg6 is playable since after 16. Bf5 Be7 I dont see
what White has got.
After 15.... Bg6, a line I have is as follows 16. c5 Nd5 17. Nxd5 Qxd5
18. Qxd5 Rxd5 19. Nxg6 hxg6 (actually these two moves could be
played earlier) 20 Bf3 Rxd4! 21 Bxc6 (21. Bxd4 Nxd4 22. c6 Bc5
23. Kh1 Nf5 and Black is not worse and might even be better) Rd3
22. Rf4 a5 23. Bf2 bxc6 24 Rxf6 Rd2 and Black seems Ok

I apologize for the confusion. What I meant was 12...Bb4 13.Qb3 Ba5 14.Rfd1 f6 15.exf6 gxf6 16.Nh4 Ne7 etc. The two forgotten moves (bold print) now left Bb4 apparently unprotected.
Against 13...f6 I intended 14.Rfd1, which after 14...Ba5 transposes to my (intended) line. If then 15.exf6 gxf6 16.Nh4 Bg6 17.Bf3, White's attack against Black's queenside seems to be hard to meet.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #54 - 03/28/09 at 12:01:55
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A few comments on some of Stefan Buecker's suggestions
(after 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.f4 dxe5 6.fxe5 Nc6 7.Be3 Bf5 8.Nc3 e6 9.Nf3 Qd7 10.Be2 0-0-0 11.0-0 Kb8!?):

i) 12.a4 a5. 13.d5 exd5 14.Bxb6 cxb6 15.cxd5 Bc5+ 16.Kh1 Nb4 17.Bb5 Qc8 18.Qd2 f6 (I had Rhf8 in my notes and tried to see why I
have selected Rhf8 instead of f6). I think that after 18... f6, 19 exf6
gxf6 20 Nh4 is worth looking for White. Although I am not sure White
wins, it seems to me he can get the pawn on f6 without much compensation for Black (I might be mistaken)

ii) Against 12...Bb4, White can also consider 13.Qb3 f6 (Ba5 is recommended by John watson) 14.exf6 gxf6 15.Nh4. Here Stefan mentions  Ne7 and points out that (15...Bg6 16.Bf3) .
If think that 15....Bg6 is playable since after 16. Bf5 Be7 I dont see
what White has got.
After 15.... Bg6, a line I have is as follows 16. c5 Nd5 17. Nxd5 Qxd5
18. Qxd5 Rxd5 19. Nxg6 hxg6 (actually these two moves could be
played earlier) 20 Bf3 Rxd4! 21 Bxc6 (21. Bxd4 Nxd4 22. c6 Bc5
23. Kh1 Nf5 and Black is not worse and might even be better) Rd3
22. Rf4 a5 23. Bf2 bxc6 24 Rxf6 Rd2 and Black seems Ok

Stefan also states that "If 11...Kb8 doesn't work, we still have 11...Bg4 12.Ng5 Bxe2! 13.Qxe2 f6, which leaves White fewer options than the lines discussed above. The position seems only slightly better for White."

I agree. Essentially, after many lines we get a game with equal
material. The only possible disadvanatge for Black is that, in contrast
to White, he gets sinle pawns on the h row and e or f row while White
gets two pawn on the h and g rows. One possible line is
14. exf6 gxf6 15. Rxf6 Nxd4 16. Qf2 Be7 17. Rf7 Nc6 18. Bc5 Bxc5 19. Qxc5 Qd4+ looks which better than Qd2 as suggested by John Watson.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #53 - 03/28/09 at 03:28:30
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lg wrote on 03/27/09 at 11:43:10:
Basically, what John Watson says on the line
11...Kb8 12. a5 Bb4 13 a5 (JW mentions 13. Qb3 Ba5 which appears to be Ok. I also think that 13. ...f6 is playable) Nxa5 (Bxa5!) 14 c5 ! Nbc4 is:
[...]
iii) 15. Bc1 Bxc3 16. bxc3 b6 17. Qa4! Qxa4 18. Rxa4 b5 19. Rb4 a6 20. Nh4 Bg6 21. Nxg6 fxg6 22. Rf7 Rhg8 23. Bg4 Rde8 and Black is tied down, but the follow-up is not evident.


(1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.f4 dxe5 6.fxe5 Nc6 7.Be3 Bf5 8.Nc3 e6 9.Nf3 Qd7 10.Be2 0-0-0 11.0-0) 11...Kb8!? 12.a4 Bb4 (a5) 13.a5 Nxa5 (Ba5) 14.c5 Nbc4 15.Bc1 Bxc3 16.bxc3 (iii) b6 17.Qa4 Qxa4 18.Rxa4 b5 19.Rb4 a6 20.Nh4

Instead of 20...Bg6, Black has alternatives. For example 20...Be4 21.Rxf7 Nc6 22.Rxc4 bxc4 23.Bxc4 Rhf8 24.Rxf8 Rxf8 25.Bxe6 a5 and the a-pawn seems strong enough to hold the balance.
But isn't 17.Ra4! b5 18.Rb4 better? White has attractive plans, e.g. 18...Ka8 19.Qe1 Rb8 20.Nh4 (20.Nd2 Ne3) Bg6 21.Nxg6 (21.Qf2 Be4!? 22.Qf4 f5 23.exf6 Bd5) 21...hxg6 (21...fxg6 22.Rf2 followed by Qf1) 22.Bf3+ c6 23.Bg5 and while White seems able to gradually strengthen his position, Black's immobile knights can't do much.

In line (ii), 16...b5, the flexible reply 17.Rf2 looks attractive.

Against 12...Bb4, White can also consider 13.Qb3 (plan: Rfd1, or Nh4) f6 14.exf6 gxf6 15.Nh4 Ne7 (15...Bg6 16.Bf3) 17.Nxf5 Nxf5 18.Bf2 followed by Bf3 and a strong attack.
But against 12...a5, there is 13.Qb3 f6 14.Rad1 Nb4 15.Rd2 +/-, while other ideas are not much worse (14.c5).

If 11...Kb8 doesn't work, we still have 11...Bg4 12.Ng5 Bxe2! 13.Qxe2 f6, which leaves White fewer options than the lines discussed above. The position seems only slightly better for White.
« Last Edit: 03/28/09 at 04:40:49 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #52 - 03/27/09 at 12:02:20
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Michael Ayton wrote on 03/27/09 at 01:31:29:
Re an early ...g6, who knows? You're assuredly not an idiot; but you might just be Dr Tarrasch redivivus ...


Yeah, that's pretty close to the truth, I guess, but minus a good deal of his chess skill.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #51 - 03/27/09 at 11:43:10
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Markovich

Basically, what John Watson says on the line
11...Kb8 12. a5 Bb4 13 a5 (JW mentions 13. Qb3 Ba5 which appears to be Ok. I also think that 13. ...f6 is playable) Nxa5 (Bxa5!) 14 c5 ! Nbc4 is:
i) 15. Bxc4 Nxc4 16. Bg5 Nxb2 17. Qb3 Nd3 is wild.
ii) 15. Bc1 Bxc3 16. bxc3 b5 17. Bg5 Rc8 18. Nd2 c6 19. Nxc4 Nxc4 20. Bxc4 bxc4 and it will be hard for White to overcome Black on the queenside)
iii) 15. Bc1 Bxc3 16. bxc3 b6 17. Qa4! Qxa4 18. Rxa4 b5 19. Rb4 a6 20. Nh4 Bg6 21. Nxg6 fxg6 22. Rf7 Rhg8 23. Bg4 Rde8 and Black is tied down, but the follow-up is not evident.

On i) I agree and it is not clear. I had some long time ago on this line,
I need to look it up again. But I think that if someone wants to play
this line, he (she) needs to know this variation well.
ii) This line is in my analysis and in my opinion it is perfectly Ok for Black (basically, that is what JW says, no?)
iii) No comment yet in iii) since I have not looked at it yet.
However, for the time being, I think the alternative given in ii) is OK
and I dont need to go into iii)
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #50 - 03/27/09 at 01:31:29
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Quote:
I am sure some people will post in favor of an early ...g6 and whatnot, but if that's chess, I'm an idiot.


Re an early ...g6, who knows? You're assuredly not an idiot; but you might just be Dr Tarrasch redivivus ...
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #49 - 03/27/09 at 01:19:24
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lg wrote on 03/25/09 at 21:11:14:
!I don't understand 15.Qc1, which looks bad after 15...Bxe2 16.Qxb2 Bh5. "

Sorry!!!!!

15 Qf1 ! and if Bxe2 16 Qxe2


Well, I have to agree that 15.Qf1! works and, so far as I can tell, kills the whole line.  I don't think I'll work on this line any more, since it seems from our investigations here that Black is doomed.  Well, chess is chess; you can't do anything about it.

In my book, that leaves Black with "just" 9...Be7 against the 4PA.  I am sure some people will post in favor of an early ...g6 and whatnot, but if that's chess, I'm an idiot.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #48 - 03/27/09 at 01:15:01
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lg wrote on 03/25/09 at 18:46:48:
Markovich

Does John Watson say that 11...Kb8 favours White?


Basically, yes.  You should subscribe, brother.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #47 - 03/26/09 at 22:31:09
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lg wrote on 03/26/09 at 21:26:07:
22. Qg4 ?! (my evaluation - see why below) Bxf7 23 Rxf7 h5! 24. Qe2
h4 25 h3 and now one notices that the Black bishop on c5 has a long
range and that the White king is not as safe as it appears to be.
[...]
To finish, i agree with you, I am not sure Black is as bad as it appears
to be (I agree that without a4 a5, the d5 thrust works less well)


Hello lg,

Many thanks for these details and for the nice NICMagazine source. I didn't check Bb4 further, but 12.a4 a5 looks fine. In any case Black replies 22...Bxf7, and in the resulting position with bishops on squares of opposite colours Black's king is often safe on a7, while the Bc5 is a strong piece. White even has to be cautious... After both 22.Qc2 Bxf7 23.Rxf7 Rd4 and 22.Qg4 Bxf7 23.Rxh7 h5 24.Qe2 h4 25.h3 (your line) 25...Rd4 26. e6 Re4 27.Qd3 Re3 28.Qd5 Qxd5 29.Bxd5 Rd8 30.Bf3 Rxe6 31.Rxb7+ Kc8 32.Rxg7 Re7 =, Black has nothing to fear.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #46 - 03/26/09 at 21:31:14
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ps: but I also think that 11...Kb8 12 a4 Bb4 is playable.
In fact, in new in chess magazine, vol 2, 2003, when commenting
the game Kotronias Short, where 11...f6 was played, the annotator
said "Alex Wohl himself claimed to have on four occasions played
11. ... Kb8, with he and the late Miles having looked at stuff such as
12 a4 Bb4 !?
[damn, 6 lines]
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #45 - 03/26/09 at 21:26:07
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Stefan

Here is something I have posted in previous posts (a long time) on the
Kb8 line. I am glad someone else is happy with this line

i) It is interesting to compare 11...Kb8 with a line recommended
against 11...Be7 which as follows
12. d5 ! (I dont think it is "!" - probably 12. a4 could deserve a "!")
exd5 13. Bxb6 axb6 14. cxd5 Bc5 15. Kh1 Nb4 and now, Hort
recommends 16. Nf7 Kb8 (White is threatening Rxf5) with advantage
to White.
Note that, after 11...Kb8 the same line goes 12. d5 ?! (my evaluation)
exd5 13. Bxb6 axb6 14. cxd5 Bc5 15. Kh1 Nb4 (note that here
the bishop has gone from f8 to c5 in one move). After 16. Nf7 ?!
black has already played Kb8 and is a tempo up compared
with previous line.

ii) 11...Kb8 12. Kh1 is interesting becasue we have the usual lines
where Black has the king in b8 (and not in c8) and White has the
king in h1 (instead of g1). I think both gain with this but Black benefits
more since all tactics based on the rook taking the f5 bishop and then
oinning the Balck queen with Bg4 are no longer valid.
As you say, the recommended move is, now, 12...f6. Now, the move
that is so strong after 11...f6, 12. d5!, here no longer works because
of what I said before: 11...Kb8 12. Kh1 f6 13. d5?! exd5 14. Bxb6 axb6
15. cxd5 Nxe5 and the tactics that work so well without the King moves
does not work here since 16. Nxe5 fxe5 17. Rxf5 simpli gives the
exchange.

iii) The game by Miles after 12 Qd2 f6 is an example of a game that
makes me like this line. Black is attacking along the g row. This game
is similar to other games played in the line 11...f6 12. exf6 ?! gxf6
13. d5 Qg7 1 (in my opinion)

iv) Well, the reason I am answering your post is basically due to
your line iii) Apparently after 12. a4 a5 13. d5 ! the line given in i)
does not appear to work so well. Following your analysis
13...exd5 14.Bxb6 cxb6 15.cxd5 Bc5+ 16.Kh1 Nb4 17.Bb5 Qc8, I think 18. Ng5 is critical. Note that compared with the line in i) Black appears to be worse (actually, i think it is worse). Here, a long time ago I posted
18....Nxd5 19. Nxd5 Be6 20. Bc4 Qc6 21. Nxf7 Bxd5
The engines favour White. And this makes sense sicne White as a
pawn on e5 which looks like an extra pawn since Black's extra
pawn is doubled and has moved from the c row.

However, as I said in that post of a long time ago, I left the engines
playing after this and I noticed that quite quickly the evaluation
quicly fades to a draw.
Here is one example of a chess engine line
22. Qg4 ?! (my evaluation - see why below) Bxf7 23 Rxf7 h5! 24. Qe2
h4 25 h3 and now one notices that the Black bishop on c5 has a long
range and that the White king is not as safe as it appears to be.
Well, I have lots of analysis on these lines. If you are interested
give me a fax number or an email address (I will make a pdf of
all of this)

To finish, i agree with you, I am not sure Black is as bad as it appears
to be (I agree that without a4 a5, the d5 thrust works less well)

I will get back to you on your endgame line.

Sorry, folks for the long post, I promise to post at most 5 lines the
next time.


  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #44 - 03/26/09 at 20:13:52
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Markovich wrote on 03/25/09 at 18:37:55:
I very much mistrust lg's beloved 11...Kb8 because of 12.a4 and now 12...Bb4 13.a5 or 12...a5 13.d5.  This is considered at some length by Watson in the latest update with the ultimate conclusion that it favors White.  So why lg says just above that he still has confidence in this, I have no idea.


The idea behind 11...Kb8 seems to be to prepare f7-f6:
(a) 12.Kh1 f6 0-1, 58, Chapman - Wohl, Doeberl Cup
(b) 12.Qd2 f6 1/2, 27, Narciso Dublan - Miles, Cappelle la Grande 2000.
(c) 12.a4. Instead of 12...Bb4, I'd prefer the mechanical 12...a5. 13.d5 (else Black might play f6) 13...exd5 14.Bxb6 cxb6 15.cxd5 Bc5+ 16.Kh1 Nb4 17.Bb5 Qc8 18.Qd2 (18.Ng5 Nxd5 +=; 18. d6 f6) 18...f6 and White hasn't much: 19.Qf4 (19.exf6 gxf6 20.Nd4 Bd3) 19...Bd3 20.Rfd1 (20.Bxd3 Nxd3 21.Qe4 Nxe5 22.Nxe5 Rde8 =) 20...fxe5 21.Qxe5+ (21.Nxe5 Bd6 =) 21...Bd6 22.Qxg7 Rhg8 23.Qd4 Bf5 24.Rac1 Qc7 25.Ne4 Qg7 26.Qxg7 Rxg7 27.Rc4 Re7 =.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #43 - 03/26/09 at 15:26:04
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lg wrote on 03/26/09 at 14:11:41:
Markovich

On the line

12. Ng5  Nxc4 13 Rxf7 Be7 14. Bf2 Nxb2
the move I mnetioned yesterday (after correction) is
15. Qf1 Bxe2 16. Qxe2 Rhf8 17. Rb1 (d5!?) Rxf7 18 Nxf7 Rf8 19 d5!
I might be mistaken but the follow ups lead to lines where
Black looses a piece for 2 pawns and I dont this this is enough for Black.

It might be the case, however, that Black has improvements on
some moves  (15....Bf5, for instance)


I'll check, thanks.  I'll also look at Stephan's latest endgame analysis. 

Let's not give up on this patient until we're sure he's dead.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #42 - 03/26/09 at 14:11:41
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Markovich

On the line

12. Ng5  Nxc4 13 Rxf7 Be7 14. Bf2 Nxb2
the move I mnetioned yesterday (after correction) is
15. Qf1 Bxe2 16. Qxe2 Rhf8 17. Rb1 (d5!?) Rxf7 18 Nxf7 Rf8 19 d5!
I might be mistaken but the follow ups lead to lines where
Black looses a piece for 2 pawns and I dont this this is enough for Black.

It might be the case, however, that Black has improvements on
some moves  (15....Bf5, for instance)
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #41 - 03/26/09 at 01:09:30
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Whether it is now irrelevant for the opening or not, that ending is interesting.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

Instead of 27...c6, I now believe that 27...Rd7!? is better: 28.Rh8+ Rd8 29.Rxd8+ Kxd8 30.Ra1 Bd5 and then:

(a) 31.Rxa7 b5 and Black profits from the missing move c7-c6, as he now controls a8. 32. Kg1 b4 33.Kf2 b3 34.Ra1 Ke7 =.

(b) 31.Ra5! Bc6 32. Rxa7 b5 33.Kg1 b4 34.Ra1 b3 35.Kf2 Bd5 36.Ke3 Ke7 37.Kd4 c6 38.Ke5 (38.Kc3 Kf6) 38...Kf7, and White can't win.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #40 - 03/25/09 at 21:46:20
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Stefan

On

""
lg wrote on Today at 19:57:11:
After "11...f6 12.d5 Nxe5 13.Nxe5 fxe5 14.a4 Kb8 15. a5 Nc8 16. Qb3 16...exd5 17.cxd5 g6! "

18 Ra4 (threatening g4) Nd6 (Black apparently does not care)
19 g4 Qc8 20 gxf5 gxf5 21 Kh1 (Black has given a piece but has open lines on the King side - which as far as I recollect is the main idea of this line for Black) 21 ... f4 22 a6 b6 and here I stopped but this
is definitely interesting to have another look


An astonishing idea, of course I had seen nothing of it. In any case, 18.Ra4 is strong and my claiming of equality was nonsense.   
Back to top  ""   ´

I am still not sure White is clearly winning. I simply wrote down what I
had before. 18 Ra4 looks like a good move but for someone (me) that
spends most of his time lookig at the f6 line, the position Black
gets is not as bad as it gets in many other f6 lines. Here, at least,
Black has (this may be apparent) some hope of king size attack.

Looking again at the line, here are other ideas
i) 18...c6 (instead of Nd6) and if 19. g4 ?! cxd 20 gxf5 d4 forking two pieces

ii) 18 Ra4 Nd6 19 g4 Rg8 (instead of Qc8) 20 Kh1 but this may transpose to the first line I have given

  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #39 - 03/25/09 at 21:11:14
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!I don't understand 15.Qc1, which looks bad after 15...Bxe2 16.Qxb2 Bh5. "

Sorry!!!!!

15 Qf1 ! and if Bxe2 16 Qxe2
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #38 - 03/25/09 at 20:32:19
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/24/09 at 21:54:12:
Shouldn't it be possible to hold the ending? For example: 28...a5 29.Ree7 b5 30.Rc7+ Kb8 31.Rxc6 b4 32.Rb6+ Kc8 33.Ra6 Rd7 34.Rh8+ Kb7 35.Rxa5 b3 36.g4 Rd4 37.Rf5 Rb4 38.Rff8 (38.Rh7+ Ka6) 38...Rxg4 39.Rb8+ Ka7 40.Ra8+ Kb6 41.Rhb8+ Kc5 42.Ra5+ Kc6 43.Kg1 Rh4 44.Kf2 Rc4 45.Kf3 Rc3+ 46.Kg4 Kd6 47.Rab5 Rc5 48.Kf4 Rc4+ 49.Kg5 Rc5+ 50.Kh4 Rxb5 =.


Stefan, I must bow to your much better knowledge of the endgame if this is at all clear to you.  It makes some sense to me about as far as 35...b3.  Then 36. Rb5+ Kc6 37.Rhb8 looks strong to me, after which White may be able to make progress with his king and pawns while his rooks keep Black's pawn from advancing.   But truly, there are so many options before and after then, it's very hard for me to make sense of it, or for me to be very confident of Black's drawing chances.

To me it seems that a very substantial risk is that Black will wind up in a R+P vs. R endgame with his king cut off far on the queenside.

@lg:  I don't understand 15.Qc1, which looks bad after 15...Bxe2 16.Qxb2 Bh5.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #37 - 03/25/09 at 20:13:58
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Hello lg,
Your 30.Ra7! clearly refutes my line; White wins. Maybe the ending is lost, but it would require much more work to prove it beyond doubt.
If you are right that 15.Qf1! is strong, the work can better be invested in an earlier side-line.

lg wrote on 03/25/09 at 18:57:11:
After "11...f6 12.d5 Nxe5 13.Nxe5 fxe5 14.a4 Kb8 15. a5 Nc8 16. Qb3 16...exd5 17.cxd5 g6! "

18 Ra4 (threatening g4) Nd6 (Black apparently does not care)
19 g4 Qc8 20 gxf5 gxf5 21 Kh1 (Black has given a piece but has open lines on the King side - which as far as I recollect is the main idea of this line for Black) 21 ... f4 22 a6 b6 and here I stopped but this
is definitely interesting to have another look


An astonishing idea, of course I had seen nothing of it. In any case, 18.Ra4 is strong and my claiming of equality was nonsense.  
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #36 - 03/25/09 at 18:57:11
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On

"And there is also 11...f6 12.d5 Nxe5 13.Nxe5 fxe5 14.a4 Kb8 15. a5 (or 15.Qb3 exd5 17.cxd5 g6!) 15...Nc8 16. Qb3 "+/- Teschner - Maier, 1962" Burgess, 16...exd5 17.cxd5 g6! = "

I looked at my old analysis and here is what I have got (in fact,
it is quite funny since it involvesa Black piece sacrifice).

After

"11...f6 12.d5 Nxe5 13.Nxe5 fxe5 14.a4 Kb8 15. a5 Nc8 16. Qb3 16...exd5 17.cxd5 g6! "

18 Ra4 (threatening g4) Nd6 (Black apparently does not care)
19 g4 Qc8 20 gxf5 gxf5 21 Kh1 (Black has given a piece but has open lines
on the King side - which as far as I recollect is the main idea of
this line for Black) 21 ... f4 22 a6 b6 and here I stopped but this
is definitely interesting to have another look

So, Stefan might be right



  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #35 - 03/25/09 at 18:46:48
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Markovich

Does John Watson say that 11...Kb8 favours White?
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #34 - 03/25/09 at 18:37:55
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/25/09 at 18:14:49:
Hi, Markovich, & many thanks. Yes, this was the line which I was looking at. In other lines where Black gives pawn a7, I had the impression that a Ke3 was able to both hold Black's pawns in check, and still assist his g-pawn(s). It seemed stronger with an a-pawn.
Against 28.Ra1, can Black play 28...Bg8 29. Rg7 Kb8 30.Tb1 b6 and then use his c-pawn? Looks like a draw, too.
With my rusty knowledge of the 4Pawns, it now seems to me that 12...Nxc4 is a bit risky (ending may be drawn, but...), while 12...Bxe2 (or f5) 13. Qxe2 f6 is fully playable (perhaps =, perhaps +=, certainly not more).
One move earlier lg already mentioned 11...Kb8 here. Looks more or less okay to me. And there is also 11...f6 12.d5 Nxe5 13.Nxe5 fxe5 14.a4 Kb8 15. a5 (or 15.Qb3 exd5 17.cxd5 g6!) 15...Nc8 16. Qb3 "+/- Teschner - Maier, 1962" Burgess, 16...exd5 17.cxd5 g6! =.
Overall this Qd7 + 0-0-0 cannot be too bad.


Thanks, and I'll look at these ideas when I get home, also.  I very much mistrust lg's beloved 11...Kb8 because of 12.a4 and now 12...Bb4 13.a5 or 12...a5 13.d5.  This is considered at some length by Watson in the latest update with the ultimate conclusion that it favors White.  So why lg says just above that he still has confidence in this, I have no idea.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #33 - 03/25/09 at 18:37:30
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Hello Markovich, Stefan and others

Some comments on Stefan Buecker's line

"Shouldn't it be possible to hold the ending? For example: 28...a5 29.Ree7 b5 30.Rc7+ Kb8 31.Rxc6 b4 32.Rb6+ Kc8 33.Ra6 Rd7 34.Rh8+ Kb7 35.Rxa5 b3 36.g4 Rd4 37.Rf5 Rb4 38.Rff8 (38.Rh7+ Ka6) 38...Rxg4 39.Rb8+ Ka7 40.Ra8+ Kb6 41.Rhb8+ Kc5 42.Ra5+ Kc6 43.Kg1 Rh4 44.Kf2 Rc4 45.Kf3 Rc3+ 46.Kg4 Kd6 47.Rab5 Rc5 48.Kf4 Rc4+ 49.Kg5 Rc5+ 50.Kh4 Rxb5 =. "

I like this idea of pushing the Black pawns forcing White to defend.
The line is difficult to analyse since there appears to be many options
for White and Black

Here is one for White:

30 Ra7 (instead of Rc7) Kb8 31. Rhb8+ Kc8 32. Re7 (White has the
rook in a Black square and does Bclak does not win a tempo whem moving his bishop attacking the rook) Kb8 33. Rxa5 Bd5 34. Raa7
c5 35. Ra6 b4 36 Rb6+ Ka8 37 Rb5 Rc8 38 Re1 and g4 next, and White appears to be better.

However, I did not follwo this too much since I think, White might
have a better choice on move 15 (15 Qc1 instead of Qc2 or Qb3).

Some comments on Stefan Buecker's comments:

i) Yes, I agree that 11. ... Kb8 seems Ok and akes sense removing
the Black king from the nast g4 to c8 diagonal.

ii) On 12...Bxe2 13. Qxe2 f6 I also believe it is playable (or at least, I was not able, yet,  to find analysis contradicting this). I think
John watson give alos a few lines on this

iii) On "11...f6 12.d5 Nxe5 13.Nxe5 fxe5 14.a4 Kb8 15. a5 (or 15.Qb3 exd5 17.cxd5 g6!) 15...Nc8 16. Qb3 "+/- Teschner - Maier, 1962" Burgess, 16...exd5 17.cxd5 g6! =". Well, I have to find my
previous analysis. But what I remember is that, no Black does
NOT hold.

I will try to get back with some of these analysis and reevaluate my
opinion on iii) (I might be mistaken)


  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #32 - 03/25/09 at 18:14:49
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Markovich wrote on 03/25/09 at 13:09:10:
White also has 28.Ra1 when I had thought before that 28...Rd2 29.Re1 Rd7 would amount to the same thing that I posted before, just one move later.  I suppose that consistently with your idea, though, Black would play 29...a5.


Hi, Markovich, & many thanks. Yes, this was the line which I was looking at. In other lines where Black gives pawn a7, I had the impression that a Ke3 was able to both hold Black's pawns in check, and still assist his g-pawn(s). It seemed stronger with an a-pawn.
Against 28.Ra1, can Black play 28...Bg8 29. Rg7 Kb8 30.Tb1 b6 and then use his c-pawn? Looks like a draw, too.
With my rusty knowledge of the 4Pawns, it now seems to me that 12...Nxc4 is a bit risky (ending may be drawn, but...), while 12...Bxe2 (or f5) 13. Qxe2 f6 is fully playable (perhaps =, perhaps +=, certainly not more).
One move earlier lg already mentioned 11...Kb8 here. Looks more or less okay to me. And there is also 11...f6 12.d5 Nxe5 13.Nxe5 fxe5 14.a4 Kb8 15. a5 (or 15.Qb3 exd5 17.cxd5 g6!) 15...Nc8 16. Qb3 "+/- Teschner - Maier, 1962" Burgess, 16...exd5 17.cxd5 g6! =.
Overall this Qd7 + 0-0-0 cannot be too bad.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #31 - 03/25/09 at 17:29:12
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Markovich - Chess magazine 123
It also contains an article by Doris Rogozenko on the Miles and a
short Video by Andrew Martin that look like a short follow up
of his previous DVD on the Alekhine

I will try to get back later on Stefan Buecker's analysis
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #30 - 03/25/09 at 13:09:10
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/24/09 at 21:54:12:
Shouldn't it be possible to hold the ending? For example: 28...a5 29.Ree7 b5 30.Rc7+ Kb8 31.Rxc6 b4 32.Rb6+ Kc8 33.Ra6 Rd7 34.Rh8+ Kb7 35.Rxa5 b3 36.g4 Rd4 37.Rf5 Rb4 38.Rff8 (38.Rh7+ Ka6) 38...Rxg4 39.Rb8+ Ka7 40.Ra8+ Kb6 41.Rhb8+ Kc5 42.Ra5+ Kc6 43.Kg1 Rh4 44.Kf2 Rc4 45.Kf3 Rc3+ 46.Kg4 Kd6 47.Rab5 Rc5 48.Kf4 Rc4+ 49.Kg5 Rc5+ 50.Kh4 Rxb5 =.


Hi Stefan, niceta meetcha.  Nice work with Kassiber.

Do I assume correctly that your 28...a5 arises from 13....Be7 14. Bf2 Nxb2 15. Qb3 Nxd4 16. Qxb2 Nxe2+ 17 Nxe2 Qd1+ 18.Be1 Bc5+ 19.Kh1 Qxe2 20.Qxe2 Bxe2 21.Nxe6 Bc4 22.Nxd8 Rxd8 23.Rxg7 Bd4 24.Rc1 Bxe5 25.Rxh7 Bxa2 26.Bg3 Bxg3 27.hxg3 c6 28.Re1 ?

I'll look at it.  It would be very nice if Black could hold.  White also has 28.Ra1 when I had thought before that 28...Rd2 29.Re1 Rd7 would amount to the same thing that I posted before, just one move later.  I suppose that consistently with your idea, though, Black would play 29...a5.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #29 - 03/25/09 at 12:50:02
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lg wrote on 03/24/09 at 21:25:08:
I think we all did a good job in analysing a few lines and showing
that lines that were usually considered ok for Black appear not to
be so.

But this is not the first time that new moves arise leading to
reassessments of previous lines.

Remember the Vorozhnev. The posts by members (namely you) and analysis by John Watson and John Cox show that perhaps there is reason for that paranoia (which was similiar to episodes of "desperate housewives),

I also remember the "not dangeorus" status of 10 Be2 (after ... 9...Be7 in the 4PA) an dteh analysis that has appeared here by John Watson and you. In fact, if I had to play against 9...Be7 I would play
10. Be2.

Have you seen in a chessbase magazine, the article by Karolyi on
10 d5 ?



No, which number is that?  I'll have to obtain it.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #28 - 03/24/09 at 21:54:12
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Shouldn't it be possible to hold the ending? For example: 28...a5 29.Ree7 b5 30.Rc7+ Kb8 31.Rxc6 b4 32.Rb6+ Kc8 33.Ra6 Rd7 34.Rh8+ Kb7 35.Rxa5 b3 36.g4 Rd4 37.Rf5 Rb4 38.Rff8 (38.Rh7+ Ka6) 38...Rxg4 39.Rb8+ Ka7 40.Ra8+ Kb6 41.Rhb8+ Kc5 42.Ra5+ Kc6 43.Kg1 Rh4 44.Kf2 Rc4 45.Kf3 Rc3+ 46.Kg4 Kd6 47.Rab5 Rc5 48.Kf4 Rc4+ 49.Kg5 Rc5+ 50.Kh4 Rxb5 =.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #27 - 03/24/09 at 21:25:08
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I think we all did a good job in analysing a few lines and showing
that lines that were usually considered ok for Black appear not to
be so.

But this is not the first time that new moves arise leading to
reassessments of previous lines.

Remember the Vorozhnev. The posts by members (namely you) and analysis by John Watson and John Cox show that perhaps there is reason for that paranoia (which was similiar to episodes of "desperate housewives),

I also remember the "not dangeorus" status of 10 Be2 (after ... 9...Be7 in the 4PA) an dteh analysis that has appeared here by John Watson and you. In fact, if I had to play against 9...Be7 I would play
10. Be2.

Have you seen in a chessbase magazine, the article by Karolyi on
10 d5 ?

  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #26 - 03/24/09 at 19:53:22
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lg wrote on 03/24/09 at 18:15:43:
I think, Black is lost but that does not mean that anyone
playing White will win. My assessment is that if White plays
"optimally" (whatever that means in chess) he wins.


I rather think that is true, which means that I won't be playing this line any more.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #25 - 03/24/09 at 18:15:43
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I think, Black is lost but that does not mean that anyone
playing White will win. My assessment is that if White plays
"optimally" (whatever that means in chess) he wins.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #24 - 03/24/09 at 00:53:47
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Markovich wrote on 03/21/09 at 22:56:21:
13....Be7 14. Bf2 Nxb2 !? 15. Qb3 Nxd4
16. Qxb2 Nxe2+ 17 Nxe2

Would you post the rest of this game, which I don't have?  I looked at 17...Qd1+ 18.Be1 Bc5+ 19.Kh1 Qxe2 20.Qxe2 Bxe2 21.Nxe6 Bc4 22.Nxd8 Rxd8 23.Rxg7 Bd4 24.Rc1 Bxe5 25.Rxh7 Bxa2 26.Bg3 Bxg3 27.hxg3 c6 28.Re1 Rd7 29.Rxd7 Kxd7 30.Ra1 Bd5 31.Rxa7 c5.  I have no idea if Black can hold this.  It looks difficult, but perhaps there is some hope.  Obviously there are alternatives for White along the way.  I'm not sure if Black has any, except maybe 30...Be6 31.Rxa7 Kc7.


So I maintain that regardless of whether White plays 25.Rxh7 or 25.Re7, it all comes down to whether Black can hold this ending.  I doubt he can, but I'm not sure.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #23 - 03/22/09 at 21:56:10
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lg wrote on 03/22/09 at 11:27:29:
the game is

[Event "BL2-Nord 0607"]
[Site "Germany"]
[Date "2006.10.15"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Predojevic,Borki"]
[Black "Kopylov,Mihail"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B03"]
1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.f4 dxe5 6.fxe5 Nc6 7.Be3 Bf5 8.Nc3 e6
9.Nf3 Qd7 10.Be2 0-0-0 11.0-0 Bg4 12.Ng5 Nxc4 13.Rxf7 Be7 14.Bf2 Nxb2 15.Qb3 Nxd4 16.Qxb2 Nxe2+
17.Nxe2 Qd1+ 18.Be1 Bc5+ 19.Kh1 Qxe2 20.Qxe2 Bxe2 21.Nxe6 Bd4
[in informator they include this move with an ! and quote
your continuation  Bc4 22.Nxd8 Rxd8 23.Rxg7 Bd4 24.Rc1 Bxe5 25. Re7 ! (25.Rxh7?! Bxa2) Bd6 26. Rh7 Ba2 27. Bc3 with advantage]


Well, I think 25.Rxh7 is fine and that 25.Re7 amounts to just the same thing after 26...Bd6 26.Rxh7 Bxa2 27.Bg3!.  I don't see the point of 27.Bc3 when Black has hopes of counterplay with his queenside pawns.  White should simplify, I opine.  But with best play by White, Black's chances seem to be rather slight.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #22 - 03/22/09 at 21:49:26
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lg wrote on 03/22/09 at 16:49:24:
Well, we could recheck this
and still look at

1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.f4 dxe5 6.fxe5 Nc6 7.Be3 Bf5 8.Nc3 e6
9.Nf3 Qd7 10.Be2 0-0-0 11.0-0 Bg4 12.Ng5 Bxe2 13.Qxe2 f6 although
it appears that White might also get a better game

I did not yet give up 11. ... Kb8.
By the way, last month's post by JW did not remove my hops
for this move.

However John Watson is right.  Nobody is playing the 4PA any more.
Why waste time with a side line and not spend some more time with the modern?


Although I think that 9...Be7 is adequate against the 4 Pawns, it's always nice to have a second option.  Anyway it's interesting in itself.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #21 - 03/22/09 at 16:49:24
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Well, we could recheck this
and still look at

1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.f4 dxe5 6.fxe5 Nc6 7.Be3 Bf5 8.Nc3 e6
9.Nf3 Qd7 10.Be2 0-0-0 11.0-0 Bg4 12.Ng5 Bxe2 13.Qxe2 f6 although
it appears that White might also get a better game

I did not yet give up 11. ... Kb8.
By the way, last month's post by JW did not remove my hops
for this move.

However John Watson is right.  Nobody is playing the 4PA any more.
Why waste time with a side line and not spend some more time with the modern?
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #20 - 03/22/09 at 14:28:03
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Don't bother inserting any comments that aren't relevant to the evaluation.  It appears as of now that the plan with 9...Qd7 and 10...0-0-0 is unsound.  Too bad, there were many interesting variations there.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #19 - 03/22/09 at 11:27:29
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the game is

[Event "BL2-Nord 0607"]
[Site "Germany"]
[Date "2006.10.15"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Predojevic,Borki"]
[Black "Kopylov,Mihail"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B03"]
1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.f4 dxe5 6.fxe5 Nc6 7.Be3 Bf5 8.Nc3 e6
9.Nf3 Qd7 10.Be2 0-0-0 11.0-0 Bg4 12.Ng5 Nxc4 13.Rxf7 Be7 14.Bf2 Nxb2 15.Qb3 Nxd4 16.Qxb2 Nxe2+
17.Nxe2 Qd1+ 18.Be1 Bc5+ 19.Kh1 Qxe2 20.Qxe2 Bxe2 21.Nxe6 Bd4
[in informator they include this move with an ! and quote
your continuation  Bc4 22.Nxd8 Rxd8 23.Rxg7 Bd4 24.Rc1 Bxe5 25. Re7 ! (25.Rxh7?! Bxa2) Bd6 26. Rh7 Ba2 27. Bc3 with advantage]
22.Rxc7+ Kb8 23.Rb1 Bb6 24.Rxg7 Rdg8
25.Bb4 Rxg7 26.Nxg7 Rg8 27.Bd6+ Ka8 28.Rc1 a5 29.Nf5 Re8 30.Ne7 Ka7 31.h3 Bd3 32.Kh2 Ka6
33.Nd5 Bf5 34.a3 Rc8 35.Re1 Rc4 36.e6 Rc6 37.e7 Bg6 38.Bg3 Be8 39.Rf1 Bc5 40.Rf8 
1-0

The game has many more comments. I might be able to insert them
later on.

By the way, a probably better move for White is

15.Qc1 (instead of Qc2 or Qb3 and not allowing Nxd4) Bxe2 16. Qxe2
and if Rhf8 17. d5
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #18 - 03/22/09 at 00:14:03
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Just saw your post. I will. post the rest of the game tomorrow since
it is 1am here
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #17 - 03/21/09 at 22:56:21
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13....Be7 14. Bf2 Nxb2 !? 15. Qb3 Nxd4
16. Qxb2 Nxe2+ 17 Nxe2

Would you post the rest of this game, which I don't have?  I looked at 17...Qd1+ 18.Be1 Bc5+ 19.Kh1 Qxe2 20.Qxe2 Bxe2 21.Nxe6 Bc4 22.Nxd8 Rxd8 23.Rxg7 Bd4 24.Rc1 Bxe5 25.Rxh7 Bxa2 26.Bg3 Bxg3 27.hxg3 c6 28.Re1 Rd7 29.Rxd7 Kxd7 30.Ra1 Bd5 31.Rxa7 c5.  I have no idea if Black can hold this.  It looks difficult, but perhaps there is some hope.  Obviously there are alternatives for White along the way.  I'm not sure if Black has any, except maybe 30...Be6 31.Rxa7 Kc7.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #16 - 03/21/09 at 16:39:49
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Informator 99 gives the game Predojevich - Kopylov

13....Be7 (?!) [Qe8 !?] 14. Bf2 Nxb2 !? N [14. ... Bxe2 15. Qxe2 Nb6 16. Qg4 with advantage to White] 15. Qb3 [Qc2] Nxd4
16. Qxb2 Nxe2+ 17 Nxe2 and White won after a very
interesting game.
This line is also included in JW's post.

I had a look at this (meaning "I was close to a computer")
and perhaps 15 Qxe2 is also worth looking at
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #15 - 03/21/09 at 16:20:48
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"Are we sure that 13...Be7 is no good?2

In the books, it is considerable worse than Qe8. But I think, in order
for me (us?) to be convinced we should look at it as well.

I will post a few (just a few) things, perhaps even today.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #14 - 03/21/09 at 15:30:02
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III-b. 18.Nxe6! Qh5 19.h3 Nxe5

III-b1.  20.dxe5 (20.Rxc6 Nxc6) 20...Qxe5 21.Rxc6 bxc6  22.Nbc7 Rd4

III-b1-1.  23.Na6+ Ka8 24.Nxb4 Rxb4 25.Qxb4 Qxe6.  Here White has the better pawns and an important tempo, but I have some doubt that he can force the win.  If 26.Qc3 then 26...Qd7.

III-b1-2.  Kam is right about 23.a3! which ultimately leads to a won ending for White.

III-b2.  20.a3! Qe2 (lg dealt with 20...Nf3+) 21.Rxc6 Qxb5 22.Rc3! Rd6 23.axb4 Qb6 24.Rc5 Rxe6 25.dxe5 favors White, with his extra pawn, fairly clearly.

I just looked at lg's analysis of 14...Be7 and I have nothing to add, except that I think that the position after 22.Qc2 is quite unattractive for Black.

Are we sure that 13...Be7 is no good?
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #13 - 03/21/09 at 12:14:16
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As a follow up to my previous message, here is something else

I mentioned before that I was not completely happy with 14...Be7
after

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. c4 Nb6 4. d4 d6 5. f4 dxe5 6. fxe5 Nc6 7. Be3 Bf5 8. Nc3 e6 9. Nf3 Qd7, 10.Be2 0-0-0 11.0-0 Bg4 12.Ng5 Nxc4 13.Rxf7 Qe8 14.Nb5!?

(the line with 14 .... Nxe3 has been analysed before). Here are some lines after 14....Be7 15 Bf2

A) 15....Bxe2 16. Qxe2 Rd7 17. Rxg7 Bxg5 18. Rxd7 Qxd7 19 Qxc4
and White has 1 pawn more. This may not be a sure win but i think
White is better (18 Rxg5 Nb6 has a similar assessment)

B) (This was the line that has been bothering me but perhaps
there is an improvement) 15...Nxb2 16 Qc2 Bxe2 17 Qxe2 Rd7
18. Rxg7 Bxg5 19. Rxd7 Qxd7 20. Qxb7 and black does not appear
to be worse - compare with similar line given in A where White has
Queen on c4 but still has a pawn on b2). Similar with 19 Rxg5 Na4
and similar to a position discussed in A - however, Black has the KN on
a4 instead of b6 and White doe not have the b2 Pawn. So, this appears to suggest that Black is doing Ok.
However, it appears that 18 d5 ! is an improvement. Play can follow
with 18... Rxd5 19 Qxb2 a6 20 a4 (Nxc7!? perhaps should also be
analysed) axb5 21 axb5 Nb8 22  Qc1 and White appears to
have an attack. However, I think this should be deeply analysed
before making a final asssesment of JW's move 14 Nb5
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #12 - 03/21/09 at 10:07:05
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Kam

As I said before, in order to evaluate the effect of the move 14) Nb5
after
1) e4 Nf6  2) e5 Nd5  3) c4 Nb6  4) d4 d6  5) f4 dxe5  6) fxe5 Nc6
7) Be3 Bf5  8) Nc3 e6  9) Nf3 Qd7  10) Be2 O-O-O
11) O-O Bg4 12) Ng5 Nxc4  13) Rxf7 Qe8  14) Nb5

you should also look at
i) 14) ....Be7

ii) and other replies after 14) Nb5 Nxe3  15) Rxc7+ Kb8 16) Qb3

iii) again, after 14) Nb5 Nxe3  15) Rxc7+ Kb8 16) Qb3 Bb4
17) Bxg4  Nxg4  18) Nxe6 Qh5  19) h3 Ngxe5 take a look at 20) a3 (instead of dxe5) since after Nf3+ (Qe2 should be look at) 21 Qxf3 QxQ 22 gxQ Rd5 23 axb4 Rxb5 24 Rxg7 the final with two rooks
and knight for each side might be winning for White

I think ii) is not a problem for White but in my analysis I found
a line for Black in i) that might be holding. I will post this on Monday
since i have this kept in a different computer and ont want to redo the analysis

Finally, you might be right about 14) Nb5 Nxe3  15) Rxc7+ Kb8
16) Qb3 Bb4  17) Bxg4  Nxg4  18) Nxe6 Qh5  19) h3 Ngxe5
20) dxe5 Qxe5  21) Rxc6 bxc6  22) Nbc7 Rd4  23) a3!

lg
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #11 - 03/21/09 at 00:32:49
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Analysis Game:
Four Pawns Attack with 6) .... Nc6 9) Nf3 Qd7  10) Be2 O-O-O   16) Qb3 Bb4:
Verdict: Strong Advantage White in the end game.

     Black is OK in the middle game, but white seemingly is able to seize the initiative in an unbalanced end game.
Specialist minor piece technique was required to win the highly interesting endgame, which involved two knights v rook.
The game involving moves 1 to 22 was previously analysed by Markovich and others.


1) e4 Nf6  2) e5 Nd5  3) c4 Nb6  4) d4 d6  5) f4 dxe5  6) fxe5 Nc6
7) Be3 Bf5  8) Nc3 e6  9) Nf3 Qd7  10) Be2 O-O-O (I had previously
thought that this dashing long castling move should be better than
10) … Rd8, but unfortunately the converse seems more likely.)


11) O-O Bg4 12) Ng5 Nxc4  13) Rxf7 Qe8  14) Nb5 Nxe3  15) Rxc7+ Kb8

16) Qb3 Bb4  17) Bxg4  Nxg4  18) Nxe6 Qh5  19) h3 Ngxe5

20) dxe5 Qxe5  21) Rxc6 bxc6  22) Nbc7 Rd4  23) a3! (Markovich mentions  

23) Na6+ etc.)  23) ….Re4  24) axb4 Re1+  25) Rxe1 Qxe1+  26) Kh2 Qe5+  

(26...Rc8 27.Na6+ Ka8  {27) … Kb7  28) Nac5+ Kb8  29) Qc3 +-} 28.Nec7+ Kb7 29.Nc5+ Kxc7

(29...Kb8 30.Qc3!  Qxc3 31.N7a6+ Ka8 32.bxc3) 30.Qf7+ +-)


27) Qg3 Qxg3 (Forced exchange of queens)

28) Kxg3 Kb7  29) Kf4!±  White has a shattered queen side pawn structure, but Black’s position is gloomy due to the following reasons.

1) The black rook has restricted activity. The rook is not able to occupy a square,  
   which would lead to control of a file.
2) White’s pair of knights is very powerful and they control key squares.
3) The white king is a powerful attacking piece and black’s king side pawns cannot
   be adequately protected.
4) Isolated double pawns are usually very weak, but white’s mangled queen side
   pawns are relatively safe. The black rook is currently contained and the black king  
   cannot approach the white’s weak pawn structure due to the a5, b5, c5 barrier,
   which is constructed by the b4 pawn and the knight at c7.

The move 29) Kf4! was overlooked in favour of 29) b5 with my chess program.
I guess it is still advantageous to have an understanding of endgame theory!

29) …. Rc8   30) Ke5 Kb6
30) ….Rxc7 31.Nxc7 Kxc7  Unfortunately, white will win the pawn grab and pawn promotion race.
32.Ke6 Kb6 33.g4 Kb5 34.g5 Kxb4 35.Kf7 g6 36.Kg7 c5 37.Kxh7 Kb3 38.h4 Kxb2 39.h5 c4 40.hxg6 c3 41.g7 c2
42.g8Q c1Q 43.Qb8+ Ka2 44.Qxa7+ Kb2 45.Qb7+ Ka1 46.g6 +-)

31) Kd6 g6  32) g4 g5  33) Kd7 Rg8  34) Ne8 h6  35) Nd6 Rh8  
36)Ke7 Rh7+   37) Nf7 h5  38) Nexg5 hxg4  39) hxg4 Rh2 40) Ne5 Re2  41) Ngf3 Kc7  42) g5 Rxb2
(At last, the rook can grab the weak queen side pawns, but it is just too late)  
43) g6 Rxb4  44) Ng5 Rc8 45)  Nef7 Rb7+  46) Kd6 Rb6 47.Ne6 c5+ 48.Kd5 Rb8 49.g7 Kb7 50.Nfd8+ +-


However, not every avenue of the variations arising from 10) Be2 O-O-O has been totally analyzed. It would be certainly be fantastic
if such a variation could be played with strong winning prospects.

It is peculiar that it is not black, but white who must demonstrate with great virtuosity
of handling of the knight pair!

An overextended machine analysis from a winning position is perhaps unnecessary, but it was quite instructive in observing how
the knight pair can be used to win with great effect against the rook.

If someone knows about the fundamentals or a literature reference on how to play with two knights, I would be interested to know.

Some general advice was mentioned in the book Winning End Game Strategy by Beliavsky and Mikhalchishin.
The game Keres-Szabo 1953 (ie. before the age of computers) was used as a reference.

The advice was
a) Get them together
b) Get them to co-ordinate.


Referring to an earlier thought in Markovich’s earlier posting: Was Watson’s omission of an evaluation on this line an implication that the line was in trouble?
I was going to say that this is a strong possibility, but after being updated by recent posts, things are not so clear?!




  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #10 - 03/20/09 at 20:39:09
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No, I am referring to the thread you initiated.

In my computer, the thread "alekhine 4 pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7 has
a yellow star next to th etitle

The nest threadon the scandinavian has no star

There a few more below, with a yellow star next to the title

In fact, all of them are on the alekhine

perhaps, it means that these are the threads I have posted something
but this means that yellow stars for me would look different from the ones in different members areas
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #9 - 03/20/09 at 20:08:08
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lg wrote on 03/20/09 at 18:58:04:
Do you know why some threads including this one have yellow stars?

Is it the thread, or just your posts?  I see five white stars on my posts, you have four yellow ones on yours.  Apparently I'm an admiral, and you're only a ship's captain.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #8 - 03/20/09 at 18:58:04
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Do you know why some threads including this one have yellow stars?
  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #7 - 03/20/09 at 18:05:32
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lg wrote on 03/20/09 at 16:01:19:
Markovich

mine are as well.

What I want to emphasize is that I am not completely dependent on the computer (meaning that I do not ignore moves that are second or third options of a chess engine.


Nor do I, at least, I try not to.  I fully agree that good moves are often best spotted with the unaided eye.  I merely say, yes, I do use silicon when analyzing this stuff.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #6 - 03/20/09 at 16:01:19
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Markovich

mine are as well.

What I want to emphasize is that I am not completely dependent on the computer (meaning that I do not ignore moves that are second or third options of a chess engine. The move a3 is one example.
fritz gives soomething like 1.50 for dxe5 but close to 0.50 for a3 and
several other moves. But I think that dxe5 fades away to a draw while a3 still make sme to think.

The computer is also useful for checking human errors. My analysis
are always filled up with lines like 23. Rxf3 ? Nh5 ! and wins.
The truth is that a move like Rf3 was thought by myself as a possibility
and the computer simple refutes it. But my guess is, if I thought
of it, why not someone else, so maybe is useful to include it.

Finally, sometimes my hobby is to analyse the f6 line of the Qd7
variation of the 4PA. Why, chess engines get completely crazy
with such lines. JW mentioned a game by Brabo was included by him
when we were echanging a few posts. Interestingly enough, until
level 22 FRITZ 11 falls for the sam eline played by Black (although
for a human it is easy to see that it loses).

  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #5 - 03/20/09 at 15:25:39
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Thanks lg, I will look at 20.a3 in III-b.  I understood that your evaluation of the line in question was equivocal, but it seemed to me that Watson was suggesting that Black was in a bad way.
 
In case there is doubt, I meant that my analyses are machine-assisted.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #4 - 03/20/09 at 15:04:33
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After his latest post, I have contacted JW in order to correct a
move in a variation. The  error might be have been triggered by myself.
John Watson (JW) suggested that I should add this correction in the post.
So, here I am again


In his post of the previous month JW has mentioned

 
"on 10.... Rd8 11 OO Bg4
12. Ng5 Nxc4 13. Bf2 Bxe2 14 Qxe2 Be7 15 Nxf7 Kxf7 16 Be3+ Kg8 17 Qxc4" and White is better"

I have replied sinding a line showing that perhaps Black is Ok and then, in his latest post JW has found an improvement for White.

HOWEVER, the mistake arises because I was using 16....Ke8 (instead of Kg8) in my analysis which is much better!
And the line quoted by myself on the latest post is based on using 16....Ke8 instead of Kg8.

Finally, Jw's suggestion starting with 19 b4 does not work as well since after 23 Rc7 the Black king is defending
the Black bishop on e7. I also think that 19....Qc6 might better than 19....b5 (of course, assuming Black has the
king in e8 and not in g8).

Sorry for this.

  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #3 - 03/20/09 at 14:52:00
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Markovich

Since what is stated in JW's post is

"Conclusion by 'LENG': 'the move you have suggested, 14. Nb5! is really a good move and might (I said "might") make people to think twice about using 9 ... Qd7 10...000 and 11...Bg4."

and I am LENG, here is an explanation for this.
First, in your post you say "but seeming to imply that Black is in a bad way."

Well, "bad way" is not what is stated above. Note the emphasis "I said
"might"".

My point of view is that this line, starting with "12 Ng5" is considered
a copy for the lines with OOO, of a moved used and deeply
analised against the lines with Rd8. In most of the books, 12 Ng5
has more pages of analysis than 12 Ng5 against OOO. In general,
the usual evaluation is that this "adaptation" appears to be weak
and a sideline against 000.

I think that JW's move 14 Nb5 has not been mentioned before and
may force Black to think twice before using the line again, which,
by the way, is what you did.

I have promised to send JW a few analysis but unfortunately was not
able to.
I emphasize that I am not saying that this move makes White to win,
I am simply saying that this move might make people to think about
this sideline again.

Concerning your analysis, (of the lines posted by you, I am adding
the critical line, in my opinion)

"17.Bxg4! Nxg4 18.Nxe6! Qh5 19.h3 Nxe5 20.dxe5 (20.Rxc6 Nxc6) 20...Qxe5 21.Rxc6 bxc6  22.Nbc7 Rd4 23.Na6+ Ka8 24.Nxb4 Rxb4 25.Qxb4 Qxe6.  Here White has the better pawns and an important tempo, but I have some doubt that he can force the win.  If 26.Qc3 then 26...Qd7."

I agree with you. However, you migh also have a look at
20 a3 (instead 20 dxe5) and in fact this is what I would suggest
for White (again, I emphasize, I dont see any sentence on JW's post saying that Black is lost). Here is one example of a follow up
20 a3 Nf3+ (Qe2 should be look at) 21 Qxf3 QxQ 22 gxQ Rd5 23 axb4
Rxb5 24 Rxg7 and this position should be analysed before saying that
Black draws easily or White wins easily.

I think this line is rather complex. I have not studied deeply, yet, the
positions after 14.... Nxe3 since I spent some time looking at
14 ...Be7. Here I think that 15 Bf2 should be played with some
interesting and complex analysis. However, JW's recommendation
"the piece sacrifice 15. Bxg4!? Nxe3 16. Nxe6 Nxd1 17. Nexc7+ Kb8 18. Nxe8 Ne3 19. Nxg7 Nxg4 20. Ne6 also looks interesting, since Black has some loose pieces" is "refuted", in my opinion, either by 16...Qxf7 or 16...Kb8 and in both cases Black is Ok.

Please see my next post as well.

ps: It should hardly be necessary to say that these calculations have been machine-assisted. However, note that my previous recommendation, in your line, 20 a3 is fairly recommended by
Fritz while 20 dxe5 is strongly (and in my opinion, overrated)
recommended by Fritz.






  
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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #2 - 03/20/09 at 12:40:17
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OldGrizzly wrote on 03/20/09 at 12:01:35:
You must have mixed something in your analysis. Do you mean in IIIb) 18.Nxe6, an if so, there is no piece to beat with 22.Rxd4. Otherwise 18.h3 is always played...


Thanks.  I misnumbered all the moves in III-b, and also 22...Rd4 is not a capture, all of which I have just corrected.
  

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Re: Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
Reply #1 - 03/20/09 at 12:01:35
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You must have mixed something in your analysis. Do you mean in IIIb) 18.Nxe6, an if so, there is no piece to beat with 22.Rxd4. Otherwise 18.h3 is always played...
  
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Alekhine 4 Pawns 6...Nc6, 9...Qd7.
03/20/09 at 01:06:22
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John Watson's latest, March 2009 update treats 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. c4 Nb6 4. d4 d6 5. f4 dxe5 6. fxe5 Nc6 7. Be3 Bf5 8. Nc3 e6 9. Nf3 Qd7, a line that we've discussed here at length (but I have been unable to locate all the threads where we've done so, so I start a new thread here).  He analyzed 10.Be2 0-0-0 11.0-0 Bg4 12.Ng5 Nxc4 13.Rxf7 Qe8 14.Nb5!? Nxe3 15.Rxc7+ Kb8 16.Qb3.  Here he stops, oddly without himself offering an evaluation, but seeming to imply that Black is in a bad way.

I'm not so very sure after 16...Bb4.  I analyzed:

I. 17. Nd6 Rxd6 18.exd6 Bxe2 19. Qxe3 Qh5 seems to favor Black.

II. 17. Qxe3 Bxe2 18.Qxe2 a6

II-a.  19.Rxg7 axb5 20.Qxb5 Rd7 is good for Black.

II-b.  19.Nd6 Bxd6 20.exd6 Rxd6 21.Rxg7 Qd8 to me, looks tolerable for Black:

II-b1.  22.Nf7 Qc7 23.Nxd6 Qxg7 =.

II-b2.  22.Nf3 Nxd4 23.Nxd4 Rxd4 24.Re1 Qf6 =.

II-b3.  22.Qf2 Nxd4 23.Nf7 (23.Re1 Rd5; 23.Rf1 Qb6) 23...Qc7=.

II-b4.  22.Rf1 Nxd4 23.Qe5 Nc6 24.Qf6 (24.Qg3 Qb6+) 24...Rd2 =.

II-b5.  22.Re1 Qf6 =.

III. 17.Bxg4! Nxg4

III-a.  18.h3 Nxd4 19.Nxd4 Rxd4 20.Nxe6 Rd7 21.Rxd7 Qxd7 22.hxg4 Qe7=.

III-b. 18.Nxe6! Qh5 19.h3 Nxe5 20.dxe5 (20.Rxc6 Nxc6) 20...Qxe5 21.Rxc6 bxc6  22.Nbc7 Rd4 23.Na6+ Ka8 24.Nxb4 Rxb4 25.Qxb4 Qxe6.  Here White has the better pawns and an important tempo, but I have some doubt that he can force the win.  If 26.Qc3 then 26...Qd7.

It should hardly be necessary to say that these calculations have been machine-assisted.  I would be most interested to hear anyone's criticism.
« Last Edit: 03/20/09 at 12:44:01 by Markovich »  

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