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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Roman's analysis of the Pirc? (Read 5255 times)
JEH
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Re: Roman's analysis of the Pirc?
Reply #18 - 05/18/09 at 21:23:03
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I've been going through the 6. ...Nc6 line from the last part of Die Pirc Die (thanks again Firebrand for posting this) and I'm now thinking I was too dismissive of this move. Dzindi gives quite a good case that Whites best is 7. Bb5, and that kind of was enough to put me off. But now I look with my fishy eyes at it again, it seems there is a lot of scope for interesting and unbalanced play in very unexplored territory - ideal for the Pirc player!

7. ...a6 Bxc6 might not be so bad for Black, but the piece sac Dzindi covers after 7. ...Bd7 8. e5 de 9. de Nxe5! 10. Nxe5 Bxb5 11. Nxb5 Nd5 is mind bogglingly complicated. However putting it under the Rybster (admittedly not for too long so far), it seems to think Black has far better compensation that the engines available when Roman last looked at this. In the 16. ...Qg3 line that Roman says White has a good advantage, Rybmeister thinks Black is fine.

Also 12. Ng4 isn't covered, and it can lead to the following hilarious line of 12. ...h5 13. c4 a6

You've got to set this up, Black has sac'ed a piece, attacks a Knight with h5, which White ignores and attacks Blacks Knight with c4, which Black ignores and attacks White's Knight with a6  Shocked Shocked

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Crazy stuff.

Live Pirc, Live!
  

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JEH
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Re: Roman's analysis of the Pirc?
Reply #17 - 05/17/09 at 12:38:34
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Back on topic, I've been investigating the other line recommended by Vigus against the Dzindzi stuff, and that is the line that bascially transposes back to the Be2 Classical with black playing c6.

The line is:

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. h3 O-O 6. Be3 c6 7. a4 Nbd7 8. Be2 Qc7 9. 0-0 b6   

Now in Chess Openings for White Explained p453, Dzindzi has 10. Re1!

What does Vigus recommend? Well in Game 56, p244 top left, they refer you back to game 53 ). Now here, on p230, we have 10. Qd2 and 10. Nd2 (from Die Pirc Die) covered, but no 10. Re1.

Oh the joy of Pirc transpositions, I'm having a nightmare keeping my Chessbase Repetoire base in step  Angry

Well we've transposed out of the anti-ADP chapter into one which doesn't cover it, so I won't be too hard on the author for missing this one.

So is this a score for Roman? If you stick the position after 9. ...b6 in to the Megabase 2009 reference search, you get 15 games (NB due to transpositons it's difficult to be sure this is a real count). 7 black wins, 7 draws, and 1 white win  Shocked.

The only White win is Furman - Dzindzichashvilli, Riga 1975 (oh, err sorry, no more cheap shots). Possibly though, this might be a clue where Roman got 10. Re1 from, as this is what Furman played against him.

Rybka likes White. This is typical.
The human eye likes White. But Black scores well. This is also the typical Pirc paradox Wink

Looking at 10. Re1 Bb7 12. Qd2 I kind of agree that White seems to keep the edge here. There's a lot of variations not covered here, and some intestesting stuff to explore.

Game stats asside, it seems to me that a6 can run into problems and e5 can run into problems, so what is Black to do? Well the best seems to be to wait with Rad8, and play these moves later.

I found a good game ref for this which got here by transposition, Handoku-Jiangchuan, Jakarta 1996 (attached)

Note the comment from King...

"White achieves a superficial initiative on the kingside, but Black beats it off with accurate defence. Once again the knight manoeuvres are worth noting. the retreat of the knight to g8 from f6 in order to cover the h6 and f6 squares is a common and effective manoeuvre. (It is
ironic that in order to defend the f6 square, the knight must move from f6)."

There is even a missed win for Black with 46. ...Nc3
  

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JEH
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Re: Roman's analysis of the Pirc?
Reply #16 - 05/17/09 at 12:05:16
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Holbox wrote on 05/17/09 at 08:07:34:
Firebrand, what a terrific work!! can you explain, in short words how you have got this?


I'd be interested too, but that's drifting off this thread's topic, so could Firebrand start a thread in one of the general sections?
  

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Re: Roman's analysis of the Pirc?
Reply #15 - 05/17/09 at 08:07:34
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Firebrand, what a terrific work!! can you explain, in short words how you have got this?
  

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FirebrandX
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Re: Roman's analysis of the Pirc?
Reply #14 - 05/17/09 at 06:29:20
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Hey thanks!

Here's a link to a cover I finished last December. It's my personal favorite of the ones I've done:

http://www.firebrandx.com/progress/c083marblehall.jpg
  
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JEH
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Re: Roman's analysis of the Pirc?
Reply #13 - 05/16/09 at 17:26:46
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FirebrandX wrote on 05/16/09 at 12:40:06:
I've uploaded the diepircdie article as a word doc here:


Smiley

Wow, you did all those book covers. Excellent work. The Dragon one is one of my favourites, espcially with the beasty playing one of the key moves in the book.  Smiley
  

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FirebrandX
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Re: Roman's analysis of the Pirc?
Reply #12 - 05/16/09 at 12:40:06
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Bibs,

I've uploaded the diepircdie article as a word doc here:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/diepircdie.doc

Also to those still taking cheap shots as Roman's analysis, I will point out again it has been far more detailed on this approach than any of the counterpart notes written or spoken of in any books or videos by Vigus or anyone else. As I detailed in this thread, the deepest anyone tries to retort the line is Vigus with 11... f5 claiming this can't be all that bad for black, yet Roman's old article goes a move further with 12. f3, claiming quite the opposite in that it's terrible for black.

As I said before, just looking at the position you have to prefer white. He's got more space, more options, and an easier game.

Also I should note that Roman has updated his analysis in various other variations in subsequent videos and books, but the key main line as described in this thread has yet to be properly dealt with by Pirc players in my opinion.


  
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Bibs
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Re: Roman's analysis of the Pirc?
Reply #11 - 05/11/09 at 13:21:25
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FirebrandX wrote on 05/09/09 at 19:56:22:
It's in the DiePircDie manual, which actually has quite extensive analysis of 6...a6 and other tries. I'm considering hosting on my own site since it's no longer around.

At any rate, in the final position, it's not really fair to just cop-out and say it's just another white option. To me, white's position is clearly better and at the very least, easier to play. An opening is suppose to be about counterplay, but black has VERY little to work with there. Indeed the more I have Rybka look at it, the more it struggles to find a decent plan for black, and the evaluation is getting worse.


Would be great if you could put the stuff up on your website. Guess Dzinzi must've had his electricity cut off which is why Die Pirc Die died.

This line was one of those James Vigus (an old friend and team mate)asked me to check prior to publishing. I had a fair look through and it all seemed reasonable at the time.

If you post what troubles you in the lines suggested in the Vigus text, I may be able to come back in a  few weeks. Not before, as all books packed prior to moving house. Or better still, James may pop by, though I guess he is busy with academic stuff.

  
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Re: Roman's analysis of the Pirc?
Reply #10 - 05/11/09 at 12:15:05
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Bibs wrote on 05/07/09 at 06:16:59:
Dzinzi - the usual mix of good ideas, dynamic stuff, some decent analysis, claimed non-TNs, hyperbole, plus key omissions and stopping too early in important lines.


Great eloquent summary of Dzindzi that. Its true like Watson demontrated there are plenty of gaps and holes in his stuff, but in terms of ideas he can be very interesting.
  
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JEH
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Re: Roman's analysis of the Pirc?
Reply #9 - 05/09/09 at 22:51:36
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Yes, you're right, it isn't fair. I can only think of analagous g4 KID positions where Black plays f4, g5 following up with Nf6, Ng6, h5, opening the h-file, sacking on g4 etc. Except that, err, problem here is that White hasn't castled. So yes, a problem for Black to solve here if White sticks in the middle or goes 0-0-0, sets up the Queenside grip with a5, and can lever the h or c files.

I'd be grateful if you could put the original site material back up and post the link.
  

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FirebrandX
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Re: Roman's analysis of the Pirc?
Reply #8 - 05/09/09 at 19:56:22
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It's in the DiePircDie manual, which actually has quite extensive analysis of 6...a6 and other tries. I'm considering hosting on my own site since it's no longer around.

At any rate, in the final position, it's not really fair to just cop-out and say it's just another white option. To me, white's position is clearly better and at the very least, easier to play. An opening is suppose to be about counterplay, but black has VERY little to work with there. Indeed the more I have Rybka look at it, the more it struggles to find a decent plan for black, and the evaluation is getting worse.
  
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JEH
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Re: Roman's analysis of the Pirc?
Reply #7 - 05/09/09 at 19:12:14
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FirebrandX wrote on 05/09/09 at 05:56:58:
JEH wrote on 05/07/09 at 19:20:46:
If you are interested in this line, then the best Source is the Vigus book. Dzindzi fails to mention the Nc6 defence touted by Davies on his Pirc DVD.



Actually you're wrong there.  


Strange, I've been through this material too, but don't recollect him covering it. In Labs 25 and 42, he covers 6. ...Nc6 which be meets with 7. Bb5, but don't thnk he covered 6. ...a6 / 7. Nc6 as on the Davies DVD, but it's been a while since I watched them. Chess Openings for White Explained doesn't even have 6. ...Nc6  Roll Eyes

Where does he cover it? Is it in Die Pirc,  Die which I don't have access too? if it's the others, I'll have to dig them out again.

Also strangely, I went through the material myself some time ago and drew the opposite conclusion. I think Black can play these King's Indian type positions. If there was really something here, there'd be some more games here. As it is, I just see it as another option for White.
  

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FirebrandX
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Re: Roman's analysis of the Pirc?
Reply #6 - 05/09/09 at 05:56:58
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JEH wrote on 05/07/09 at 19:20:46:
If you are interested in this line, then the best Source is the Vigus book. Dzindzi fails to mention the Nc6 defence touted by Davies on his Pirc DVD.



Actually you're wrong there. I've now assembled all the articles in question:

DiePircDie
Roman's various videos on beating the Pirc
Nigel Davies Pirc DVD
Vigus's Pirc in Black & White

Here is a nutshell of the end result of comparing all the analysis:

Well I was disappointed ironically from both Roman AND Vigus in that they stop just when the line was getting critical. Vigus mentioned Davies "Changing his mind about Nc6" (which eludes to what my FM friend mentioned about Davies agreeing with Roman after debate), however, Vigus himself still supports Nc6 as best. The line Vigus likes is:


1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. h3 O-O 6. Be3 a6 7. a4 Nc6 8. Be2 e5 9. d5 Ne7 10. Nd2 Ne6 11. g4 f5

Roman claims this is bad because white then plays 12. f3. He further admits (as does Vigus) that there are no actual games in this line and that it is the product of computer engine analysis. I verified this by plugging it into my Deep Rybka 3 monster and it found this exact same line as best for both sides with a minimal plus score to white of 0.20.

So as you can see, I'm a little disappointed with both sides of the argument. Nothing is really resolved here at all!

If anything, Roman's article was more detailed than Vigus's book for this "accelerated classical" line, but then again, Vigus has to cover the entire range of opening lines white may try.


Bottom line, I have to admit the test is still on black to prove Roman isn't on to something here.
  
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JEH
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Re: Roman's analysis of the Pirc?
Reply #5 - 05/07/09 at 19:20:46
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Ah, the infamous "The Pirc, The"  - not sure why the German title though  Wink

It got turned into a DVD (which had a big hole in one of the lines), and then ended up in "Chess Openings For White Explained", with the hole patched.

Bibs has described Dzinzi's vids to a tee. I find they have a certain charm myself (I got a load of them cheap on eBay).

If you are interested in this line, then the best Source is the Vigus book. Dzindzi fails to mention the Nc6 defence touted by Davies on his Pirc DVD.

I don't think this line is much better or worse than the raft of other decent lines White has against the Pirc. not cutting edge, but a good balance.

P.S. By "defanged" or "tamed", I think that people are indicating that Dzinzis original claim of the death of the Pirc is somewhat exagerated.

  

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Re: Roman's analysis of the Pirc?
Reply #4 - 05/07/09 at 18:58:30
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'Defanged' might be a bit too strong and even 'tamed' is exaggeration. But Black won't get eaten alive immediately, no...
  
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