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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6 (Read 27773 times)
Uruk
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #35 - 05/17/09 at 19:24:25
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Notes to Markovich:

White's best pieces are heavy pieces (pressure on e-f central files)

So 6.Bd3 speeds up castlings.

Black Be6 blocks e-f files, Ne5 is misplaced to fight it.

6.Ne5 Nbd7 isn't possible cos Qf3 hits b7, so we play ...c6 first.
  
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Uruk
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #34 - 05/17/09 at 19:02:57
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Stefan, your Qf5-d7 idea is cool.
Black gives back the inactive rook to regroup.
The Nd5 is a beast then.
White is left shuffling his heavies looking for tricks.

The drawing chances seem more intact in the Bd3 variation.
After 9...Be7 10.h4 Nbd7 11.Ne5 O-O (show me!)
does the absence of f-pawn make the attack stronger than in normal Caro?
I don't think so.

9...Bd6 is possibly more precise, I don't know.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #33 - 05/17/09 at 19:00:02
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Markovich wrote on 05/17/09 at 18:23:48:
5...Be5 6.Ne5 and here I'm not sure that I agree that 6...c6 is critical.  There's also 6...e6 7.g4 Bg6, where Black's chances seem fairly good to me.

Further, I wonder whether 6.Bd3?!, exchanging White's best attacking piece, can really be taken seriously.  After the proposed 6...Bxd3 7.Qxd3 c6 8.Bf4 e6 9.0-0-0, I would prefer 9...Bd6 to 9...Be7.

A good rule of thumb for Black in the BDG is that if you can bring off two pairs of minor pieces without incurring an obvious disadvantage, you will eventually win.  So to me, 9...Bd6 10.Bg5 Nbd7 11.Ne4 Be7 looks quite fine for Black.  White can only avoid further simplification by some retreat of the e4 knight, when 12...Qc7 followed by ...h6 and/or ...0-0-0 looks good for Black.  On the other hand, 12.Nxf6 Bxf6 obviously favors Black.


5...Bf5 6.Ne5 e6 7.g4 Bg6 8.Qf3: in my database White scores 71% (86 games). Proves nothing, but it is rather Black who needs some improvements here.

Regarding 6.Bd3 Bxd3 7.Qxd3 c6 8.Bf4 e6 9.0-0-0 Bd6, the last move was the main line in my analysis, and White's reply is 10.Be5. See reply #7 for more details.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #32 - 05/17/09 at 18:23:48
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5...Be5 6.Ne5 and here I'm not sure that I agree that 6...c6 is critical.  There's also 6...e6 7.g4 Bg6, where Black's chances seem fairly good to me.

Further, I wonder whether 6.Bd3?!, exchanging White's best attacking piece, can really be taken seriously.  After the proposed 6...Bxd3 7.Qxd3 c6 8.Bf4 e6 9.0-0-0, I would prefer 9...Bd6 to 9...Be7.

A good rule of thumb for Black in the BDG is that if you can bring off two pairs of minor pieces without incurring an obvious disadvantage, you will eventually win.  So to me, 9...Bd6 10.Bg5 Nbd7 11.Ne4 Be7 looks quite fine for Black.  White can only avoid further simplification by some retreat of the e4 knight, when 12...Qc7 followed by ...h6 and/or ...0-0-0 looks good for Black.  On the other hand, 12.Nxf6 Bxf6 obviously favors Black.
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #31 - 05/17/09 at 15:01:56
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Uruk wrote on 05/17/09 at 07:06:28:
Well I couldn't guess c4 one move after the solid c3...
After 18...Bd5 19.Bf4 Qf5! seems strong.


I had mentioned 14...Qd7 15.c4 in reply #24. Replying to your 18...Bd5 19.Bf4 Qf5, I propose 20.0-0 Bxe4 21.Be5 Qxg5 22.Rf2 Bxg2 (better than 22...Bh6 23.Re1) 23.Rxg2, when Black can choose between 23...Qe3+ and 23...Qf5(!). In the latter case it is hard to deny that Black is better. Nevertheless White's chances for a draw seem intact.

Uruk wrote on 05/17/09 at 07:06:28:
About 6.Bd3, ...Bg6 hinted at both players to castle long but I'm not sure that's what I want:
White could develop long-term pressure on the kingside pawns.
It also happens in the normal Caro, so everybody castles short without fear now.
Black's catching up in development... White has the Caro space but is there something concrete?

I don't claim that there is something concrete, but it seems to me that White has compensation, that's all. Black has some problems with finding a secure place for his king, and he hasn't any pawn breaks in the near future. Both factors taken together means that White has a lasting pressure, in other words: compensation. (To be fair, I admit that Black doesn't seem worse. I'd have no difficulties at all to play with Black in the position after 6.Bd3.)

@ MNb: Regarding your idea 7...e6, maybe White can afford 8.Qb5+ Nc6 9.Qxb7 Nb4 10.Qb5+ Qd7 11.Qe2, about =.
  
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #30 - 05/17/09 at 14:23:25
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Uruk wrote on 05/17/09 at 07:06:28:
White has the Caro space but is there something concrete?


In the second diagram yes. White is three tempi ahead in development. Another question is how White must use this temporary compensation. If Black can play Nbd7, Qa5 and 0-0-0 undisturbed White is a pawn down for nothing. So I wonder if 7...c6 is really necessary? Is there something wrong with 7...e6 8.Bf4 Be7 9.0-0-0 Nbd7 or Nc6 ?
  

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Uruk
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #29 - 05/17/09 at 07:06:28
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/16/09 at 18:52:38:
I don't understand - on 13.c3 b6 14.Ne4 Qd7 my plan was 15.c4 (not 15.0-0). If then 15...Nc7 16.Qa4 b5 17.cxb5 cxb5 18.Qa5 (unclear?).


Well I couldn't guess c4 one move after the solid c3...
After 18...Bd5 19.Bf4 Qf5! seems strong.

About 6.Bd3, ...Bg6 hinted at both players to castle long but I'm not sure that's what I want:
White could develop long-term pressure on the kingside pawns.
It also happens in the normal Caro, so everybody castles short without fear now.
Black's catching up in development... White has the Caro space but is there something concrete?
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #28 - 05/17/09 at 06:53:08
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1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 (the so-called Blackmar-Diemer Gambit, or short: BDG) 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5

(a) 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5 Qd6 12.Bg2 g6 13.c3 b6 14.Ne4 Qd7 15.c4 Nc7 16.Qa4 b5 17.cxb5 cxb5 18.Qa5.

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(b) 6.Bd3 Bxd3 7.Qxd3 c6 8.Bf4 e6 9.0-0-0 Be7 10.h4.

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Uruk questions the soundness of 1.d4 d5 2.e4 and regards 5...Bf5 as =+. The two variations seem to be White's best attempts to get sufficient compensation for the sacrificed pawn. Any improvements are welcome, taking back moves is allowed.

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You seem to have jumped from move 6 to move 12 in a terrible hurry.

That's the advantage of a mere discussion, instead of playing games!
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #27 - 05/17/09 at 04:37:57
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This is a foreign opening for me.  Could one of you please provide a diagram of the positions you're analysing? 


You seem to have jumped from move 6 to move 12 in a terrible hurry.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #26 - 05/16/09 at 18:52:38
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Uruk wrote on 05/16/09 at 18:29:23:
13.c3 is hardly ambitious, after ...b6 14.Ne4 Qd7 15.O-O Bg7
I don't see antyhing constructive for White.


I don't understand - on 13.c3 b6 14.Ne4 Qd7 my plan was 15.c4 (not 15.0-0). If then 15...Nc7 16.Qa4 b5 17.cxb5 cxb5 18.Qa5 (unclear?).


Uruk wrote on 05/16/09 at 18:29:23:
Now on the more serious 6.Bd3,

Quote:
Black better takes on d3: 6...Bxd3 (6...Bg6 7.Bxg6 hxg6 8.Qe2 gives White an attractive position) 7.Qxd3 c6 8.Bf4 e6 9.0-0-0, for example 9...Bd6 (9...Be7 10.h4) 10.Be5


0k, a Caro without f-pawn.
Is the h4 idea really compatible with f-file play?

I had thought you would prefer 6...Bg6 (see your last post). But you are probably right, 6...Bxd3 seems more precise.

Your last remark probably comments on my side-line 9....Be7 10.h4. "A Caro without f-pawn" - hmm, I'd rather stress White's big advantage in development. Black's Be7 indicates that he intends to castle short, which in itself justifies h2-h4 (even if Black now adjusts his plan and plays Be7-d6). Your worries whether f- and h-file play are compatible are subtle, but White can probably make good use of both files, should Black castle short. I really believe you should check 9...Bd6 instead of Be7. If you can make this work, BDG players might be frustrated (especially if Black's king reaches a safe place on b8). However, if you castle short, into White's attack, I have my doubts whether this can deter BDG players from this variation.
  
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Uruk
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #25 - 05/16/09 at 18:29:23
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13.c3 is hardly ambitious, after ...b6 14.Ne4 Qd7 15.O-O Bg7
I don't see antyhing constructive for White.

Now on the more serious 6.Bd3,

Quote:
Black better takes on d3: 6...Bxd3 (6...Bg6 7.Bxg6 hxg6 8.Qe2 gives White an attractive position) 7.Qxd3 c6 8.Bf4 e6 9.0-0-0, for example 9...Bd6 (9...Be7 10.h4) 10.Be5


0k, a Caro without f-pawn.
Is the h4 idea really compatible with f-file play?

  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #24 - 05/15/09 at 21:42:19
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Yes, after 14.Nxe6 Qxe6+ 15.Qe2 Qxe2+ 16.Kxe2 e6 17.Bd2 Ne7! Black's advantage is not in doubt. 14.Ne4 (14...Qc7 15.0-0; 14...Qd7 15.c4) may be playable.
  
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #23 - 05/15/09 at 18:26:59
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I agree with Stefan, 13.c3 would be the move I looked at first. One particularly amusing blitz game of mine continued 13...b6 14.Nxe6 Qxe6+ 15.Kf2!? (Rybka thinks white has compensation after 15.Qe2 and the queen exchange, but I don't buy it) Qf5+ 16.Kg3!? - I actually feel that white's king is curiously out of danger for the meanwhile, whilst white's pieces can flow into the centre quite quickly. Still, I can't believe that this gives white objectively enough compensation (I eventually swindled a draw), hence I am very curious as to Arkhein's proposal on move 13 or how himself/Stefan propose to meet 13....b6 (I believe after 13...O-O-O, on the other hand, white's compensation is obvious enough).

So, what is white's move after 13.c3 b6! ? 14.Ne4 seems insufficient at first glance, and the queen exchange seems illogical, so if there are no improvements then perhaps I will start to move towards agreement of 12....g6 =+
  

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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #22 - 05/15/09 at 17:41:37
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Uruk is only one of many who say that the BDG is dubious. And it is just this bad image which makes the BDG so attractive for players without prejudices, so what... For a long time I had (wrongly) regarded 4...c6 as -/+, when in reality White has nothing to fear, so I am not in a position to criticize anybody. Never trust your old analyses.

Quote:
13.O-O h6 14.Nxe6 hxg5 is funny, but not quite correct.
Just 13...Bg7, so Nxb7 is met by Qb4 and c4 by Nb6 when White's center crumbles.

I'd prefer 13.c3 to avoid any future crumbling of said center.

Quote:
Like I said, I find 6.Bd3 more logical than 6.Ne5
White develops quickly to bring rooks for central pressure.
My first reaction would be 6...Bg6

(6.Bd3 Bg6) 7.Bxg6 hxg6 8.Qe2 would be my last reaction.
  
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #21 - 05/15/09 at 17:37:52
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I think it's fair to discuss in very general terms the value, or lack thereof, of any given system.  We do that here all the time, often ad nauseam.  But of course it's important to maintain a friendly tone.  And always, always to return with "It's good!" or "It's bad!" is boring and gets irritating after awhile.  It seems to me that when there is serious disagreement over some line or a system, there either has to be an a breaking off with an agreement to disagree, or else a deeper examination of the underlying chess -- both of which happen here quite a lot, actually, to our communal credit.
  

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