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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Best black system against the Averbach? (Read 5173 times)
Fllg
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Re: Best black system against the Averbach?
Reply #14 - 08/25/09 at 17:21:38
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8.e5 Nh7 looks interesting. If White accepts the offered pawn with 9.exd6 cxd4 10.dxe7 Qxe7 11.Bxd4 how do you want to continue?

11...Rd8 12.Nd5 doesn´t seem convincing but 11...Nf6 12.Nf3 Nc6 gives Black a very active game. This is surely worth looking into.

Thank you for the suggestion!

Greets

Fllg
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Best black system against the Averbach?
Reply #13 - 08/25/09 at 15:45:03
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After 8.e5?! Nh7! with the idea 9.exd6 cxd4! 10.Bxd4 Qxd6 11.Bxg7 Qxd1 is a bit better for Black.

I like Bologan's 16...Qh8! given in page 134 which is an improvement over the lines given by Flear in DW. After 16...Qh8 i think that Black has at least enough compensation.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Best black system against the Averbach?
Reply #12 - 06/29/09 at 20:47:20
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A lot of Averbach lines seem to turn out that way, Black may be able to draw, but whatever chances there are belong to White.  I wouldn't claim that's true throughout, of course, but it comes up often enough.

You will see that my opponent eventually began playing rather weak moves.  It's not a very good game except that it illustrates an idea for White.

EDIT:  Looking at it now, I think that 15...Be4 does equalize.  White perhaps should try 15.Ba3 instead of 15.Bf6.
« Last Edit: 06/30/09 at 00:15:05 by Markovich »  

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Fllg
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Re: Best black system against the Averbach?
Reply #11 - 06/29/09 at 19:52:19
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Playing a5-a4 is quite common in this type of position, isn´t it? I recall similar Ideas in the Saemisch Gambit.

My own idea would be 16... Re6 intending to double rooks on the e-file. This does not look so comfortable for White either after 17.Bh4 Rae8 or 17.Bxe5 Nxe5 with a lot of play for Black because of White´s development problems.

EDIT:

Now I see your correction, Markovich. Thank you for the gamescore. Bologan offers 15...Be4 without assessment after some further moves but obviously believing Black to be okay. Maybe Black has enough for the pawn but he can only hope for a draw here. This is not something I want to defend...
  
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Re: Best black system against the Averbach?
Reply #10 - 06/29/09 at 19:50:43
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TonyRo wrote on 06/29/09 at 19:40:25:
Interesting. Rybka thinks that after 14. Bxe7 Rfe8 15. Nf6+ Bxf6 16. Bxf6 a5! Black has enough, and maybe more.


I actually played 15.Bf6, sorry.  See my amended post above.
  

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TonyRo
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Re: Best black system against the Averbach?
Reply #9 - 06/29/09 at 19:40:25
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Interesting. Rybka thinks that after 14. Bxe7 Rfe8 15. Nf6+ Bxf6 16. Bxf6 a5! Black has enough, and maybe more.
  
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Fllg
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Re: Best black system against the Averbach?
Reply #8 - 06/29/09 at 19:34:56
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@ TonyRo

No, Bologan doesn´t mention this. 14...Nd4 15.Nc7 Nxe2 16.Nxe8 Rxe8 17.Nxe2 Bg4 seems to fail because of 18.h3 Rxe2+ 19.Kf1 but after 14...Rac8 15.Nf3 Nc5 Black has compensation since he is very active and White can´t castle. If it´s enough is another question...
  
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Markovich
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Re: Best black system against the Averbach?
Reply #7 - 06/29/09 at 19:28:51
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Fllg wrote on 06/29/09 at 18:35:05:
Markovich wrote on 06/28/09 at 23:14:41:
I think that White's better after 8.e5.  I just won a CC game quite handily after 8...dxe5 9.dxe5 Qxd1+ 10.Rxd1 Ng4 11.Bxc5 Nxe5 12.Nd5 Nbc6 13.b3!


8.e5 is surely the critical test of this line. Bologan cites the game Seifert-Feige, Germany 2002 where Black equalized after 13...Bf5 14.Nf3 Rfd8 15. Nxe5 Bxe5 16.0-0 Kf8.

Would you like to share your game with us? I´m very interested to see your improvement on this.



[Event "m1236113463"]
[Site "net-chess.com"]
[Date "2009.06.25"]
[Round "1"]
[White "gospodin"]
[Black "dboese"]
[Result "1-0"]

1.d4 Ng8f6 2.c4 g6 3.Nb1c3 Bf8g7 4.e4 d6 5.Bf1e2 0-0 6.Bc1g5
h6 7.Bg5e3 c5 8.e5 dxe5 9.dxe5 Qd8xd1 10.Ra1xd1 Nf6g4 11.Be3xc5
Ng4xe5 12.Nc3d5 Nb8c6 13.b3 Bc8f5 14.Bc5xe7 Rf8e8 15.Be7f6 Ra8c8
16.Ke1f1 Re8e6 17.Bf6xg7 Kg8xg7 18.Nd5e3 Nc6e7 19.Ng1f3 Ne5c6
20.Nf3d4 Nc6xd4 21.Rd1xd4 Rc8c7 22.Be2f3 Bf5b1 23.Rd4d2 Ne7f5
24.Ne3d5 Rc7d7 25.g3 g5 26.Kf1g2 Bb1e4 27.Rh1d1 Be4xf3 28.Kg2xf3
Rd7d6 29.h4 Re6e5 30.h5 Rd6e6 31.Nd5c7 Re6e7 32.Rd2d7 Re5e4 33.Rd7xe7
Re4xe7 34.Nc7b5 a6 35.Nb5c3 Kg7f8 36.Rd1d8 Re7e8 37.Rd8xe8 Kf8xe8
38.g4 Nf5d4 39.Kf3e4 Nd4e6 40.Ke4e5 Ne6c5 41.Ke5d6 Nc5d3 42.Nc3e4
Nd3c1 43.Kd6c7 Nc1xa2 44.Ne4d6 Ke8f8 45.Kc7xb7 Na2c1 46.Kb7xa6
Nc1xb3 47.Ka6b5 Nb3d4 48.Kb5b6 Nd4c2 49.c5 Nc2b4 50.c6 Nb4d5
51.Kb6b7 Kf8e7 52.Nd6f5 Ke7f6 53.c7 Nd5xc7 54.Kb7xc7 1-0

I'm sorry, I first put that I played 15.Nf6+, but in fact I played 15.Bf6.
  

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TonyRo
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Re: Best black system against the Averbach?
Reply #6 - 06/29/09 at 19:13:49
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Does Bologan mention 14. f4 Nd7 15. Bxe7 Rfe8 16. Bh4? This looks critical to me.
  
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Fllg
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Re: Best black system against the Averbach?
Reply #5 - 06/29/09 at 18:35:05
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Markovich wrote on 06/28/09 at 23:14:41:
I think that White's better after 8.e5.  I just won a CC game quite handily after 8...dxe5 9.dxe5 Qxd1+ 10.Rxd1 Ng4 11.Bxc5 Nxe5 12.Nd5 Nbc6 13.b3!


8.e5 is surely the critical test of this line. Bologan cites the game Seifert-Feige, Germany 2002 where Black equalized after 13...Bf5 14.Nf3 Rfd8 15. Nxe5 Bxe5 16.0-0 Kf8.

Would you like to share your game with us? I´m very interested to see your improvement on this.

  
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Re: Best black system against the Averbach?
Reply #4 - 06/29/09 at 03:32:31
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kylemeister wrote on 06/28/09 at 23:50:59:
Markovich wrote on 06/28/09 at 23:14:41:
If Black wants to play 6...Na6 7.Qd2 e5 8.d5 Nc5 as recommended by Gallagher, he might just as well start out with 6...Nbd7.



As far as I know, 8. Nf3 is a very respectable line after 6...Nbd7 7. Qd2 e5, not so much after 6...Na6 7. Qd2 e5.  


May be, but in my data base after 6...Nbd7 and so forth, 8.d5 is played 80% of the time and scores better than 8.Nf3. Fair enough though, Gallagher perhaps considers 6...Na6 more precise on that basis.
  

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Re: Best black system against the Averbach?
Reply #3 - 06/28/09 at 23:50:59
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Markovich wrote on 06/28/09 at 23:14:41:
If Black wants to play 6...Na6 7.Qd2 e5 8.d5 Nc5 as recommended by Gallagher, he might just as well start out with 6...Nbd7.



As far as I know, 8. Nf3 is a very respectable line after 6...Nbd7 7. Qd2 e5, not so much after 6...Na6 7. Qd2 e5.  
  
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Re: Best black system against the Averbach?
Reply #2 - 06/28/09 at 23:14:41
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Fllg wrote on 06/28/09 at 20:32:10:
6...h6 7.Be3 c5 have scored well for black.


I think that White's better after 8.e5.  I just won a CC game quite handily after 8...dxe5 9.dxe5 Qxd1+ 10.Rxd1 Ng4 11.Bxc5 Nxe5 12.Nd5 Nbc6 13.b3!

As Black I'd prefer 6...Na6.

@FightingDragon:  If Black wants to play 6...Na6 7.Qd2 e5 8.d5 Nc5 as recommended by Gallagher, he might just as well start out with 6...Nbd7.  It seems to me that the best point of 6...Na6 is to put the bishop on d7 while the knight is still on a6.  There are a couple of reasonable lines for Black that go that way.

In Gallagher's line after 9.f3 a5, 10.0-0-0!? is recommended in Panczuk's Offbeat King's Indian, which is a pretty good source on the Averbach.  However 10.g4 and 10.h4 have been played more frequently and have scored much better, 59% or more, in my database, for whatever that is worth. It's a game of chess, but I would probably prefer 8...Qe8 or 8...c6 to 8...Nc5.

I suppose I'll have to buy DW:KID now, just to see what Flear says.  I didn't know that there was a chapter there on the Averbach.  I think that's a strange recommendation for a DW book, though, because the Averbach leads to fluid positional play in just about every variation.  Hardly the sharp stuff you expect in a DW.
  

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Fllg
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Re: Best black system against the Averbach?
Reply #1 - 06/28/09 at 20:32:10
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Most likely there is no definite answer to your question since in practice both 6...Na6 and 6...h6 7.Be3 c5 have scored well for black.

Regarding your question about the position after Flears recommendation 10.0-0-0 I can´t see much counterplay for black vs. whites natural g4 & h4 and so would certainly avoid this.

After 8...Qe8 9.Bd1 c6 has probably been overlooked by Flear because it has been rarely played. Bologan is surely right that both this and 8...c6 lead to a slighty better position for white. But this is commonly the case in many lines of the KID, isn´t it? Opposite to 8...Nc5 in both lines black seems to have his faire share of play which is what I am looking for.

To confuse a bit more  Wink, another suggestion by Gallagher in his earlier work "Beating the Anti-King´s Indians" published by Batsford in 1996 was 8...Qe8 9.Bd1 Nh5!? which doesn´t seem to have been refuted and hasn´t been adressed by Flear either.

Quite a lot of food for thought.  Cheesy  
  
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Best black system against the Averbach?
06/28/09 at 14:52:31
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After looking into the Averbach chapter of Bologan's new book, I looked up my other King's Indian books about the Averbach.

Bologan discusses both 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Bg5 Na6 and 6. ... h6 7.Be3 c5.

6. ... h6 seems to be in fine shape, but one thing that would put me off is the nature of play after 7.Be3 c5 8.dc5: dc5: 9.e5.
Black has to know his theory well to equalize and there is little room for creativity here. Considering that the Averbakh is no frequent choice by white this could be impractical (Bologan admits he forgot theory in a game against Bareev and lost).

On the other hand Bologan considers white slightly better after 6. ... Na6 7.Qd2 e5 8.d5

But considering this position I'm at a loss:

Bologan doesn't consider 8. ... Nc5 9.f3 a5 as recommended in Play the KID by Gallagher. Also Golubev doesn't mention 9. ... a5.
Glenn Flear analyses 10.0-0-0 in Dangerous weapons, which in turn Gallagher says nothing about!
What do you think about the position after 10.0-0-0?

Also I'm very confused if 8. ... c6 or 8. ... Qe8 is better.

After 8. ... c6 Bologan gives 9.f3 cd5: 10.cd5: Bd7 11.Bd1! but analyses only 11. ... Qb6 and 11. ... Qa5, while I think that 11. ... b5!? could be better.

After 8. ... Qe8 (which Bologan considers better than 8. ... c6 while Golubev is of another opinion) 9.Bd1 Bologan only looks at 9. ... c6 while Glenn Flear gives 9. ... Bd7! as "almost certainly best" and leading to equality for black, e.g. Yusupov-Nikolaidis.

So it seems to me that all the experts disagree after 6. ... Na6 7.Qd2 e5 8.d5, perhaps somebody with practise in this system could give his opinion?
Basically I think play after Na6 is more interesting than in these h6,c5-systems.
  
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