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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread (Read 66867 times)
ArKheiN
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Re: C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #88 - 05/17/15 at 13:22:59
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Indeed, when I saw that game I immediately remembered this thread and my contribution (post n°69) which allowed to win some great Kaissibers Cheesy

Good memories back.
  
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brabo
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #87 - 05/17/15 at 12:49:58
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Ametanoitos wrote on 08/14/09 at 13:19:56:
I don't know if i have the right to make comments about the nominations after the poll started but i'd like to make this observation (i cant help!)

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Nxe4 8. d5 Ne7 9. O-O Nxd2 10. Bxd2 Bxd2 11. d6 and now 11... cxd6 12. Qxd2  and the analysis of Captain Future continues 12.... O-O  13. Rad1 d5 14. Bxd5 Nxd5 15. Qxd5 with a slight advantage for White which seems at least a little misleading to me. After 15...d6 the position is completelly equal with chances to win only at the Black side. Black has a pawn up (at present, which means that to recapture this White will invest a tempo or worse allow the exchange of the Queens which favours Black!) and all the endings with rooks and bishop Vs rooks and knight are potentially better for Black. It seems that White has no sign of initiative!

I have to admit that after we showed that White has nothing after 10.Nxd2 then 10.Bxd2 may be a best attempt for White to fight for a draw!



The whole line with a transposition popped up yesterday on the board. Nakamura hoped Giri didn't know the line but it wasn't the case so a quick uninspiring game.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #86 - 05/17/14 at 16:21:26
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/13/14 at 22:42:28:
As I said in my OP of the "Pomtow Attack" competition, the 31 year old Russian GM Dmitry Chuprov (Elo 2577) had played 7.Nbd2 a few times in 2009, which gave me a hint that the line deserved attention.

Henk Smout informs me that GM Dmitry Chuprov died in September 2012, only 33 years old: http://chess-news.ru/en/node/9357
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #85 - 05/13/14 at 22:42:28
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As I said in my OP of the "Pomtow Attack" competition, the 31 year old Russian GM Dmitry Chuprov (Elo 2577) had played 7.Nbd2 a few times in 2009, which gave me a hint that the line deserved attention. Perhaps Jonny Hector is better known in the West than Chuprov, but when Bosch writes that "others have followed in his [Hector's] footsteps", I am still puzzled: Ponkratov played the line already in 2011, and it seems that Jonny Hector adopted it only in 2012. And then there is Dr. Pomtow, of course...
Wink

History aside, the move 7.Nbd2 had disappeared from my radar after the end of the competition, and the later developments are just what I had hoped for: in practice, the idea can be an effective weapon - even in games on the GM level. 
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #84 - 05/13/14 at 22:22:59
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 05/13/14 at 21:37:58:
I will check the analysis later to see if he has used any from this thread.


It doesn't look like it, for instance he gives 13...Nxd5 14 Qxd5 without comment, and doesn't mention the stunning:

CaptainFuture wrote on 08/12/09 at 11:26:36:
14. Rfe1+!! Ne7 15. Rxe7+!! [/b]

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15.... Kxe7 16. Qg5+! f6 17. Qxg7+ Kd6 18. Nd4! and my analysis proves (but the variations are complicated, so please check it!), that Black is lost again.

  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #83 - 05/13/14 at 21:37:58
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/13/14 at 11:18:47:
But when you are working on such an article, or as an editor of NIC who is going to publish the piece, shouldn't you at least google for the moves 1.e4 ... 7.Nbd2? The competition comes up in Google among the first ten entries.


Maybe he didn't want to mention the Forum and give us publicity! Looking at the article in NIC I certainly can't see any mention of ChessPub, I will check the analysis later to see if he has used any from this thread.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/13/14 at 11:18:47:
I understand why Jeroen mentions Jonny Hector rather than Dr. Pomtow from the 19th century.


Interesting, I think I will play some old nineteenth century variation a few times so that he can do another SOS article about 'my' 'new' opening!
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #82 - 05/13/14 at 11:18:47
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It is a pleasure to see that research at the chesspub has real-life consequences. Issue 3 of New in Chess (the Magazine) has a five-page article by Jeroen Bosch on the Pomtow Attack 7.Nbd2!?. The article is titled "Giuoco Piano con fuoco", and it begins:

Quote:
In the last couple of years Swedish grandmaster Jonny Hector played an interesting pawn sacrifice in an age-old position in the Italian Game.

I understand why Jeroen mentions Jonny Hector rather than Dr. Pomtow from the 19th century. But when you are working on such an article, or as an editor of NIC who is going to publish the piece, shouldn't you at least google for the moves 1.e4 ... 7.Nbd2? The competition comes up in Google among the first ten entries.
« Last Edit: 05/13/14 at 13:03:29 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #81 - 04/28/11 at 22:34:21
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I think the investigations have been worthwhile, for it's pretty well-established that 7.Nc3 allows Black quite a few drawing options and unclear ways to play for more, and that 7.Bd2 is unattractive due to 7...Nxe4, so if White can prove that 7.Nbd2 is, at worst, dynamically equal, then it might make the line with 6.cxd4 Bb4+ more attractive again at sub-GM level.  At the moment it's looking like White's best choice in this line, if nothing else because it's less heavily explored.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #80 - 04/28/11 at 20:33:09
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My line was not evaluated as "=/+", it was evaluated as "=" and then i added that next Black is going to play ...d6 etc. Probably we didn't have too many contributions because that Pomtow line is not terribly popular. I imagine that a Dragon line, or a Najdorf for example would attract many more people, but it is just my impression, it doesn't mean that i am sure that this is the case! For example why not have a competition in a "cutting edge" position? Bg5 Najdorf in my opinion is a good place to look for fresh ideas or forgotten ones that have been abandoned in the pre-computer era but can be proven that are playable now. Or why not test a new set-up against the Berlin? (Of course i have specific examples in my mind!)
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #79 - 04/28/11 at 07:42:25
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Ametanoitos wrote on 02/12/11 at 14:31:45:
OK, Houdini at depth 26 gives 7.Nbd2 (which is it's first choice!)  7...Nxe4 8.d5 Bxd2+ and now Black seems to be absolutely fine after both 9.Nxd2 Nxd2= and 10...Ne5 (with tempo on c4)+d6 etc and 9.Bxd2 Nxd2 10.Qxd2 Ne7 11.d6 cxd6 12.Qxd6 O-O 13.O-O Nf5= +...d6 etc and if 10.Nxd2? Qe7+ or 10...Ne5 is even bad for White.

I think that it is nice to come back again on old threads and see what new things await to be discovered.

This variation is evil equal.

White has half a dozen options, but all look = (incl. your =+ line, btw). Not so different from the insights gained in the competition, but a valuable extra. - Re another competition, now seems a bad moment, when you are doing duty for fatherland. There were only four contributors, we cannot risk further decline! And I have to re-start Kaissiber, after my complete failure in 2010, so Kaissiber is my priority in the next months.

My mistake in the Pomtow competition was to overflood the members with analysis. It seems better to start with s.th. unexplored and give the thread time to develop, not just one month, maybe better two or three.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #78 - 02/12/11 at 14:31:45
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Checking this variation again after some time with the new engine Houdini i have to say that pleasant memories came back to my mind. I remember analysing this line for the Kaisiber competition and again finishing 2nd and i was thinking if it is time for another competition. Mr Buecker?  Smiley

OK, Houdini at depth 26 gives 7.Nbd2 (which is it's first choice!)  7...Nxe4 8.d5 Bxd2+ and now Black seems to be absolutely fine after both 9.Nxd2 Nxd2= and 10...Ne5 (with tempo on c4)+d6 etc and 9.Bxd2 Nxd2 10.Qxd2 Ne7 11.d6 cxd6 12.Qxd6 O-O 13.O-O Nf5= +...d6 etc and if 10.Nxd2? Qe7+ or 10...Ne5 is even bad for White.

I think that it is nice to come back again on old threads and see what new things await to be discovered.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #77 - 08/30/09 at 11:56:21
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Ametanoitos, you are right. In the heat of analysis I overlooked that 13.h4 had already been mentioned in Luzin's and your nomination post.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #76 - 08/30/09 at 09:54:18
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/27/09 at 04:09:05:
The proposed solution, the nominated 13...Ng6, leads to a situation where Black's pieces are well coordinated. I've checked it for some hours, but didn't find anything what I really liked for White. - In the chat thread, reply #33, I had given an analysis which included the move 13.Re1 for White. Nevertheless it slowly became clear that 13....Ng6! is strong and should better be avoided. Therefore I'd now recommend another continuation (instead of 13.Re1). This is not to diminish the merits of the nominated 13...Ng6. But if 13...Ng6 is strong, we have to draw our conclusions and search for possible improvements at an earlier moment: 13.h4!?.


In our post when we nominated the move 13...Ng6 we writte: "Also 13.h4!? does not work now because of 13…Nf5! Also 13…Ng6 14.h5 Ne5 15.Be2 h6 16.Rc1 c5 seems good enough."

The idea of the h4 attack was Luzin's and is a typical move that wants to undermine the knight support. It reminds me what Rowson wrote in Chess for Zebras page 33 when he tells us a story about the game Te. Petersen- Rowson. Torshavn 2000 which was : 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5 h6 4.Bh4 d6 5.Nc3 g5 6.Bg3 Nh5 7.e3 Bg7 8.Nd2 Nxg3 9.hxg3 Nd7 and now white played 10.Qf3?! a6! 11.g4?! d5 12.e4?! O-O 13.O-O-O c5 14.dxc5 d4 etc whith Black coming on top

Rowson writtes : "In the post mortem we looked at the position before move 10 for a while and decided that if the position proceeded normally Black whould be very comfortable. For instance after ......
  Looking at it now, i think we generally overestimated Black's chances if the game proceeds as normal, but what bothered me at the time is that we couldn't see a convincing way for White to develop any ideas and get fully into the game. Tiger Hillarp Persson was watching the post-mortem and he was also perplexed until he hit upon 10.a4!? with the stated aim of "trying to grab some squares" "

And he continues to analyse this fantastic idea....

In our case also we thought that if the game continues normally Black will absorve the compensation slowly (please check the wonderfull ...Qf8! idea we discovered at the end of our analysis) and come on top. But as in the Rowson game the h4!-h5 idea (with the aim to grab some squares) seems powerfull to give White maybe enough compensation for equality but again i have to state that it was Luzin's idea and we commented on that with 2 proposals.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #75 - 08/27/09 at 05:17:48
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Consider this message a placeholder - I had typed a few pages' wrth of response, much of which agrees with Stefan but a few improvements for white. In the main, my analysis led to white having no losing chances, and many winning ones - tomorrow I will try to rekindle the analysis from my various boards and retype, and hopefully then this message can be deleted!

There are improvements! White cannot lose, and can play for more safely! Therefore I stick by my original (sad) discovery that ...Qe7+ is not as attractive as it originally looked, and at best leads to a grim grovel.

*FUTURE MESSAGE TO COME"
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #74 - 08/27/09 at 04:09:05
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CaptainFuture's impressive novelty has deservedly won the competition. The combination is brutally forcing and refutes my -apparently plausible - continuation 11...Bb4: (1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Nxe4 8. d5 Ne7 9. 0-0 Nxd2 10. Bxd2 Bxd2 11. d6 Bb4) 12.Ng5 cxd6 13.Qh5!! +-.

Before this idea was posted, I had seen only a minor improvement on my 13.Nxf7 Qc7 14.Qb3 d5 15.Bxd5, namely 15.Nxh8!?. The move at least avoids the stale equality after 15.Bxd5, but White can't claim an advantage: 15.Nxh8 Qxc4 16.Qf3 Qh4 17.Qf7+ Kd8 18.Qxg7 Nc6 19.Nf7+ Kc7 20.Rac1, unclear. Of course after CaptainFuture's 13.Qh5!! +- such attempts have become irrelevant.  

gewgaw's 12...a5, which punished the "parking excursion" of the bishop to b4, has already been discussed in this thread. It was very nice and encouraging that he published the idea early, which led to some discussions.

Last, but not least there was (1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Nxe4 8. d5 Ne7 9. 0-0 Nxd2 10. Nxd2 0-0 11.a3 Bxd2 12.Bxd2 d6 13.Re1) 13...Ng6!, carefully studied by Ametanoitos/Luzin. What I liked very much: They tackled White's gambit in the most principled way, by discussing whether White's intended attack with his two bishops isn't only sheer bluff. Obviously it isn't easy to analyze a position in which both sides have already developed most of their pieces - the position has more the character of a middlegame than of an opening.  

The proposed solution, the nominated 13...Ng6, leads to a situation where Black's pieces are well coordinated. I've checked it for some hours, but didn't find anything what I really liked for White. - In the chat thread, reply #33, I had given an analysis which included the move 13.Re1 for White. Nevertheless it slowly became clear that 13....Ng6! is strong and should better be avoided. Therefore I'd now recommend another continuation (instead of 13.Re1). This is not to diminish the merits of the nominated 13...Ng6. But if 13...Ng6 is strong, we have to draw our conclusions and search for possible improvements at an earlier moment: 13.h4!?.

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The new move may or may not offer sufficient attacking chances. At least it seems to fit into the intended attack on the kingside, and it does something against Ametanoitos'/Luzin's concept of Ne7-g6, when the knight controls so many important squares. Now 13...Ng6?! 14.h5 seemed to be just what White wants, so I checked another knight move: 13...Nf5 14.h5 Qh4
Or 14...Re8 15.Bd3 h6 16.Re1 Rxe1+ 17.Bxe1 Bd7 18.Rc1 Rc8, and now perhaps 19.Ba5!?. It isn't obvious how Black can get rid of the annoying attack on c7.  
15.Rc1 Re8 16.Bb5 Re5 17.Bc3 Re7 18.Re1 Bd7 19.Rxe7 Qxe7 20.Bf6

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For example 20...Qxf6 21.Bxd7 Ne7 22.Qb3 Qe5 23.Qxb7 Rf8 24.Bc6 (24.h6 =) 24...Nf5 25.Qb4 Nh6 26.g3 Qxh5 27.Bd7 Qxd5 28.Rxc7 a5 29.Qf4, and I'd prefer White. I have no doubts, however, that my sample line will not be the last word in a sharp struggle.
  
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