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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread (Read 70354 times)
ArKheiN
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Re: C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #88 - 05/17/15 at 13:22:59
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Indeed, when I saw that game I immediately remembered this thread and my contribution (post n°69) which allowed to win some great Kaissibers Cheesy

Good memories back.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #87 - 05/17/15 at 12:49:58
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Ametanoitos wrote on 08/14/09 at 13:19:56:
I don't know if i have the right to make comments about the nominations after the poll started but i'd like to make this observation (i cant help!)

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Nxe4 8. d5 Ne7 9. O-O Nxd2 10. Bxd2 Bxd2 11. d6 and now 11... cxd6 12. Qxd2  and the analysis of Captain Future continues 12.... O-O  13. Rad1 d5 14. Bxd5 Nxd5 15. Qxd5 with a slight advantage for White which seems at least a little misleading to me. After 15...d6 the position is completelly equal with chances to win only at the Black side. Black has a pawn up (at present, which means that to recapture this White will invest a tempo or worse allow the exchange of the Queens which favours Black!) and all the endings with rooks and bishop Vs rooks and knight are potentially better for Black. It seems that White has no sign of initiative!

I have to admit that after we showed that White has nothing after 10.Nxd2 then 10.Bxd2 may be a best attempt for White to fight for a draw!



The whole line with a transposition popped up yesterday on the board. Nakamura hoped Giri didn't know the line but it wasn't the case so a quick uninspiring game.
  
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Re: C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #86 - 05/17/14 at 16:21:26
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/13/14 at 22:42:28:
As I said in my OP of the "Pomtow Attack" competition, the 31 year old Russian GM Dmitry Chuprov (Elo 2577) had played 7.Nbd2 a few times in 2009, which gave me a hint that the line deserved attention.

Henk Smout informs me that GM Dmitry Chuprov died in September 2012, only 33 years old: http://chess-news.ru/en/node/9357
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #85 - 05/13/14 at 22:42:28
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As I said in my OP of the "Pomtow Attack" competition, the 31 year old Russian GM Dmitry Chuprov (Elo 2577) had played 7.Nbd2 a few times in 2009, which gave me a hint that the line deserved attention. Perhaps Jonny Hector is better known in the West than Chuprov, but when Bosch writes that "others have followed in his [Hector's] footsteps", I am still puzzled: Ponkratov played the line already in 2011, and it seems that Jonny Hector adopted it only in 2012. And then there is Dr. Pomtow, of course...
Wink

History aside, the move 7.Nbd2 had disappeared from my radar after the end of the competition, and the later developments are just what I had hoped for: in practice, the idea can be an effective weapon - even in games on the GM level. 
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #84 - 05/13/14 at 22:22:59
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 05/13/14 at 21:37:58:
I will check the analysis later to see if he has used any from this thread.


It doesn't look like it, for instance he gives 13...Nxd5 14 Qxd5 without comment, and doesn't mention the stunning:

CaptainFuture wrote on 08/12/09 at 11:26:36:
14. Rfe1+!! Ne7 15. Rxe7+!! [/b]

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15.... Kxe7 16. Qg5+! f6 17. Qxg7+ Kd6 18. Nd4! and my analysis proves (but the variations are complicated, so please check it!), that Black is lost again.

  
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Re: C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #83 - 05/13/14 at 21:37:58
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/13/14 at 11:18:47:
But when you are working on such an article, or as an editor of NIC who is going to publish the piece, shouldn't you at least google for the moves 1.e4 ... 7.Nbd2? The competition comes up in Google among the first ten entries.


Maybe he didn't want to mention the Forum and give us publicity! Looking at the article in NIC I certainly can't see any mention of ChessPub, I will check the analysis later to see if he has used any from this thread.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/13/14 at 11:18:47:
I understand why Jeroen mentions Jonny Hector rather than Dr. Pomtow from the 19th century.


Interesting, I think I will play some old nineteenth century variation a few times so that he can do another SOS article about 'my' 'new' opening!
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #82 - 05/13/14 at 11:18:47
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It is a pleasure to see that research at the chesspub has real-life consequences. Issue 3 of New in Chess (the Magazine) has a five-page article by Jeroen Bosch on the Pomtow Attack 7.Nbd2!?. The article is titled "Giuoco Piano con fuoco", and it begins:

Quote:
In the last couple of years Swedish grandmaster Jonny Hector played an interesting pawn sacrifice in an age-old position in the Italian Game.

I understand why Jeroen mentions Jonny Hector rather than Dr. Pomtow from the 19th century. But when you are working on such an article, or as an editor of NIC who is going to publish the piece, shouldn't you at least google for the moves 1.e4 ... 7.Nbd2? The competition comes up in Google among the first ten entries.
« Last Edit: 05/13/14 at 13:03:29 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #81 - 04/28/11 at 22:34:21
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I think the investigations have been worthwhile, for it's pretty well-established that 7.Nc3 allows Black quite a few drawing options and unclear ways to play for more, and that 7.Bd2 is unattractive due to 7...Nxe4, so if White can prove that 7.Nbd2 is, at worst, dynamically equal, then it might make the line with 6.cxd4 Bb4+ more attractive again at sub-GM level.  At the moment it's looking like White's best choice in this line, if nothing else because it's less heavily explored.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #80 - 04/28/11 at 20:33:09
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My line was not evaluated as "=/+", it was evaluated as "=" and then i added that next Black is going to play ...d6 etc. Probably we didn't have too many contributions because that Pomtow line is not terribly popular. I imagine that a Dragon line, or a Najdorf for example would attract many more people, but it is just my impression, it doesn't mean that i am sure that this is the case! For example why not have a competition in a "cutting edge" position? Bg5 Najdorf in my opinion is a good place to look for fresh ideas or forgotten ones that have been abandoned in the pre-computer era but can be proven that are playable now. Or why not test a new set-up against the Berlin? (Of course i have specific examples in my mind!)
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #79 - 04/28/11 at 07:42:25
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Ametanoitos wrote on 02/12/11 at 14:31:45:
OK, Houdini at depth 26 gives 7.Nbd2 (which is it's first choice!)  7...Nxe4 8.d5 Bxd2+ and now Black seems to be absolutely fine after both 9.Nxd2 Nxd2= and 10...Ne5 (with tempo on c4)+d6 etc and 9.Bxd2 Nxd2 10.Qxd2 Ne7 11.d6 cxd6 12.Qxd6 O-O 13.O-O Nf5= +...d6 etc and if 10.Nxd2? Qe7+ or 10...Ne5 is even bad for White.

I think that it is nice to come back again on old threads and see what new things await to be discovered.

This variation is evil equal.

White has half a dozen options, but all look = (incl. your =+ line, btw). Not so different from the insights gained in the competition, but a valuable extra. - Re another competition, now seems a bad moment, when you are doing duty for fatherland. There were only four contributors, we cannot risk further decline! And I have to re-start Kaissiber, after my complete failure in 2010, so Kaissiber is my priority in the next months.

My mistake in the Pomtow competition was to overflood the members with analysis. It seems better to start with s.th. unexplored and give the thread time to develop, not just one month, maybe better two or three.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #78 - 02/12/11 at 14:31:45
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Checking this variation again after some time with the new engine Houdini i have to say that pleasant memories came back to my mind. I remember analysing this line for the Kaisiber competition and again finishing 2nd and i was thinking if it is time for another competition. Mr Buecker?  Smiley

OK, Houdini at depth 26 gives 7.Nbd2 (which is it's first choice!)  7...Nxe4 8.d5 Bxd2+ and now Black seems to be absolutely fine after both 9.Nxd2 Nxd2= and 10...Ne5 (with tempo on c4)+d6 etc and 9.Bxd2 Nxd2 10.Qxd2 Ne7 11.d6 cxd6 12.Qxd6 O-O 13.O-O Nf5= +...d6 etc and if 10.Nxd2? Qe7+ or 10...Ne5 is even bad for White.

I think that it is nice to come back again on old threads and see what new things await to be discovered.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #77 - 08/30/09 at 11:56:21
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Ametanoitos, you are right. In the heat of analysis I overlooked that 13.h4 had already been mentioned in Luzin's and your nomination post.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #76 - 08/30/09 at 09:54:18
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/27/09 at 04:09:05:
The proposed solution, the nominated 13...Ng6, leads to a situation where Black's pieces are well coordinated. I've checked it for some hours, but didn't find anything what I really liked for White. - In the chat thread, reply #33, I had given an analysis which included the move 13.Re1 for White. Nevertheless it slowly became clear that 13....Ng6! is strong and should better be avoided. Therefore I'd now recommend another continuation (instead of 13.Re1). This is not to diminish the merits of the nominated 13...Ng6. But if 13...Ng6 is strong, we have to draw our conclusions and search for possible improvements at an earlier moment: 13.h4!?.


In our post when we nominated the move 13...Ng6 we writte: "Also 13.h4!? does not work now because of 13…Nf5! Also 13…Ng6 14.h5 Ne5 15.Be2 h6 16.Rc1 c5 seems good enough."

The idea of the h4 attack was Luzin's and is a typical move that wants to undermine the knight support. It reminds me what Rowson wrote in Chess for Zebras page 33 when he tells us a story about the game Te. Petersen- Rowson. Torshavn 2000 which was : 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5 h6 4.Bh4 d6 5.Nc3 g5 6.Bg3 Nh5 7.e3 Bg7 8.Nd2 Nxg3 9.hxg3 Nd7 and now white played 10.Qf3?! a6! 11.g4?! d5 12.e4?! O-O 13.O-O-O c5 14.dxc5 d4 etc whith Black coming on top

Rowson writtes : "In the post mortem we looked at the position before move 10 for a while and decided that if the position proceeded normally Black whould be very comfortable. For instance after ......
  Looking at it now, i think we generally overestimated Black's chances if the game proceeds as normal, but what bothered me at the time is that we couldn't see a convincing way for White to develop any ideas and get fully into the game. Tiger Hillarp Persson was watching the post-mortem and he was also perplexed until he hit upon 10.a4!? with the stated aim of "trying to grab some squares" "

And he continues to analyse this fantastic idea....

In our case also we thought that if the game continues normally Black will absorve the compensation slowly (please check the wonderfull ...Qf8! idea we discovered at the end of our analysis) and come on top. But as in the Rowson game the h4!-h5 idea (with the aim to grab some squares) seems powerfull to give White maybe enough compensation for equality but again i have to state that it was Luzin's idea and we commented on that with 2 proposals.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #75 - 08/27/09 at 05:17:48
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Consider this message a placeholder - I had typed a few pages' wrth of response, much of which agrees with Stefan but a few improvements for white. In the main, my analysis led to white having no losing chances, and many winning ones - tomorrow I will try to rekindle the analysis from my various boards and retype, and hopefully then this message can be deleted!

There are improvements! White cannot lose, and can play for more safely! Therefore I stick by my original (sad) discovery that ...Qe7+ is not as attractive as it originally looked, and at best leads to a grim grovel.

*FUTURE MESSAGE TO COME"
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #74 - 08/27/09 at 04:09:05
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CaptainFuture's impressive novelty has deservedly won the competition. The combination is brutally forcing and refutes my -apparently plausible - continuation 11...Bb4: (1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Nxe4 8. d5 Ne7 9. 0-0 Nxd2 10. Bxd2 Bxd2 11. d6 Bb4) 12.Ng5 cxd6 13.Qh5!! +-.

Before this idea was posted, I had seen only a minor improvement on my 13.Nxf7 Qc7 14.Qb3 d5 15.Bxd5, namely 15.Nxh8!?. The move at least avoids the stale equality after 15.Bxd5, but White can't claim an advantage: 15.Nxh8 Qxc4 16.Qf3 Qh4 17.Qf7+ Kd8 18.Qxg7 Nc6 19.Nf7+ Kc7 20.Rac1, unclear. Of course after CaptainFuture's 13.Qh5!! +- such attempts have become irrelevant.  

gewgaw's 12...a5, which punished the "parking excursion" of the bishop to b4, has already been discussed in this thread. It was very nice and encouraging that he published the idea early, which led to some discussions.

Last, but not least there was (1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Nxe4 8. d5 Ne7 9. 0-0 Nxd2 10. Nxd2 0-0 11.a3 Bxd2 12.Bxd2 d6 13.Re1) 13...Ng6!, carefully studied by Ametanoitos/Luzin. What I liked very much: They tackled White's gambit in the most principled way, by discussing whether White's intended attack with his two bishops isn't only sheer bluff. Obviously it isn't easy to analyze a position in which both sides have already developed most of their pieces - the position has more the character of a middlegame than of an opening.  

The proposed solution, the nominated 13...Ng6, leads to a situation where Black's pieces are well coordinated. I've checked it for some hours, but didn't find anything what I really liked for White. - In the chat thread, reply #33, I had given an analysis which included the move 13.Re1 for White. Nevertheless it slowly became clear that 13....Ng6! is strong and should better be avoided. Therefore I'd now recommend another continuation (instead of 13.Re1). This is not to diminish the merits of the nominated 13...Ng6. But if 13...Ng6 is strong, we have to draw our conclusions and search for possible improvements at an earlier moment: 13.h4!?.

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The new move may or may not offer sufficient attacking chances. At least it seems to fit into the intended attack on the kingside, and it does something against Ametanoitos'/Luzin's concept of Ne7-g6, when the knight controls so many important squares. Now 13...Ng6?! 14.h5 seemed to be just what White wants, so I checked another knight move: 13...Nf5 14.h5 Qh4
Or 14...Re8 15.Bd3 h6 16.Re1 Rxe1+ 17.Bxe1 Bd7 18.Rc1 Rc8, and now perhaps 19.Ba5!?. It isn't obvious how Black can get rid of the annoying attack on c7.  
15.Rc1 Re8 16.Bb5 Re5 17.Bc3 Re7 18.Re1 Bd7 19.Rxe7 Qxe7 20.Bf6

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For example 20...Qxf6 21.Bxd7 Ne7 22.Qb3 Qe5 23.Qxb7 Rf8 24.Bc6 (24.h6 =) 24...Nf5 25.Qb4 Nh6 26.g3 Qxh5 27.Bd7 Qxd5 28.Rxc7 a5 29.Qf4, and I'd prefer White. I have no doubts, however, that my sample line will not be the last word in a sharp struggle.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #73 - 08/27/09 at 01:00:33
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A few additional remarks, here and perhaps in another post, on the four nominated ideas. - The analysis by CraigEvans (reply #14 in the main thread) led to an interesting ending. I got the impression that he underestimated Black's chances:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nbd2! d5 8.exd5 Qe7+!? 9.Kf1! Na5 10.Qa4+ Bd7 11.Bb5 "+= and it remains unclear whether Black's sacrifice can be justified (11...c6; 11...0–0–0)." So far my analysis, and here CraigEvans took over and found the following tactical line:

11...0-0-0 12.Bxd7+ Rxd7 13.a3 Re8! 14.h3 Qe2+ 15.Kg1 Bxd2 16.Bxd2 Ne4 17.Be3 Qxb2 18.Kh2 b6 19.Rab1 Qa2 20.Ne5! "and now black's best chance appears to be to sacrifice the exchange with 20...Rxe5 21.dxe5 Nc3 22.Ra1 Qxd5 23.Qf4 +/= - the computer is trying to tell me that this is equalish, but it is clear that the extra material should win out eventually," CraigEvans stated. Later he clarified in the chat thread that his final assessment of this main line should be read as +/- (not yet a forced win, but clearly better for White).

However, I'd suggest 22...Nxa4 (instead of 22...Qxd5) 23.Rxa2 Rxd5, which leads to an interesting ending:

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Black has only a pawn for the exchange, but the knights are strong, while White's rooks and the bishop are suffering from a lack of open files or diagonals. For example: 24.Rc2 c5 25.Rb1 Kd7 26.f4 (puts another pawn on a black square) 26...a6 27.Rd2 Rxd2 28.Bxd2 Nc4 29.Be1 Ke6 30.g4 Ncb2 31.Kg3 Nd3 32.Kf3 Kd5 33.Ke3 c4. Still no open file in sight for White's rook! 34. Bb4 b5 35.Rf1 Nac5 36.h4 Ne4 37.h5 Ng3 38.Rg1 Ne4 39.Rg2 g6 40.hxg6 hxg6 41.Rh2 g5 42.fxg5 Nxe5 43.Rh8 Nxg5 44.Rd8+ Kc6 45.Rd6+ Kc7 46.Rxa6 Ne6 47.Kd2 Nxg4 48.Ra7+ Kc6 49.Rxf7 Ne5 50.Rf6 Kd5 51.Bc3 Nd3. Black will hold the draw.

This is only a PC-assisted sample line, of course, and I'd respect if others still believe that the rook should finally triumph over knight and pawn. In my opinion the diagram position isn't too bad for Black, certainly not worse than +=, maybe better. In my optimistic moments I might even prefer Black's position! Thus CraigEvans' analyis has stopped only millimeters short of proving that 8...Qe7+!? is a serious antidote against the Pomtow Attack, with the additional advantage that the consequences of this sacrifice are quite forced.  
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #72 - 08/26/09 at 13:02:00
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I am still searching for the best formula, so I am open for any suggestions. In the first competition we have had a topic which I hoped would attract many, as a good weapon against the French. If you build a repertoire around, say, 1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Nc3, this key position would probably be reached in at least 50% of your games. Your Nimzoindian line can also play an important role in a repertoire, so I'd guess the basic situation is similar, and I'd not expect significantly more participation. Or am I overlooking something?

However, you may be right that choosing a SHARP variation makes a topic attractive for some people, who like all kinds of hair-rising complications. So the Marshall Gambit in the Slaw makes some sense. On the other side I avoided topics like Traxler, King's Gambit etc., which require a vast knowledge of theory, and non-experts would feel excluded by such a choice.

That's why I tried the Pomtow: (a) not much theory; (b) can be very tactical; (c) no one is an expert...  
« Last Edit: 08/27/09 at 04:11:45 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #71 - 08/26/09 at 11:11:05
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I would like to suggest that the topic of the next Kaissiber Competition should be somewhat broader to encourage even more members to participate and suggest novelties.

Perhaps the Marshall Gambit in the Slav or the 4.Qc2 0-0 5.a3 Bc3 6.Qc3 Ne4 Nimzo-Indian would be worthy subjects for the next competition?
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #70 - 08/21/09 at 02:42:31
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An important hint, thank you very much! I overlooked the transposition, although 7.Bd2 Bxd2+ 8.Nbxd2 Nxe4 was prominently played by Fischer, Rubinstein, Rotlewi, Honfi and others (87 games are in the database). The "full" transposition 12.0-0 was reached in 2 of these games, both drawn. The very similar situation after 11...cxd6, when White can also try 12.0-0-0 or 12.Qxd6, also showed a level score of 4.5 out of 9 games.

A few remarks on this different move-order:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 Bxd2+ 8.Nbxd2 Nxe4 9.d5

Recommended by Ritzen (1924), Pinski (2005) still regards the text move as the main line: "8...Nxe4 looks tempting, but White reacts energetically with 9.d5! ..."

While 9.Bxf7+? (a long time ago it was given a ! in the Bilguer) 9...Kxf7 10.Nxe4 Re8 is incorrect, e.g. 11.0-0 Rxe4 12.d5 Ne5 13.d6 Kf8!, other alternatives are playable:

(a) 9.Nxe4 d5 10.Bd3 dxe4 11.Bxe4 0-0 12.0-0 Bg4 13.Bxc6 bxc6 [=, 41] Leonhardt - Rotlewi, Hamburg 1911; 14.b3 with a slight plus, but it should still become a draw.

(b) 9.Qe2 d5 10.Nxe4 0-0 11.0-0-0 Bg4 12.h3 Bxf3 13.gxf3 dxc4 (dxe4) 14.Qxc4 Qh4 and Black was somewhat better in Mednis - Fischer, New York 1963.

9...Nxd2 10.Qxd2

10.Kxd2!? Ne7 11.Ng5 is interesting, but after 11...d6 12.Qh5 g6 13.Qh4 h5 14.Ne4 Ng8 15.Bb5+ Bd7 16.Bxd7+ Qxd7 White is lacking a strong continuation: 17.Rhe1 (or perhaps 17.Nf6+ Nxf6 18.Rhe1+ Kf8 19.Qxf6 Rh7 =+; 17.Rac1 Kf8 18.Qh3!? Qa4 19.Qd3 Nf6! 20.Nxf6 Qf4+ etc.) 17...Kf8 18.Rac1 Rc8 19.Rc4 (19.Qf4 Qa4 20.b3 Qxa2+ 21.Kc3 b5) 19...Qb5 20.Nc3 Qxb2+ 21.Kd3 Qb6 22.Rb1 (22.Qh3 Rd8) 22...Qa6 23.Qd4 Rh7 24.Nb5 f5 25.a4, and White may have sufficient compensation, but not more.

10...Ne7

10...Nb8? 11.d6 0-0 12.Rc1 Nc6 13.dxc7 Qxc7 14.0-0 Qa5 15.Qd6 Qb4 16.Bxf7+ Rxf7 17.Rxc6 Qxb2 18.Re1 Qf6 19.Qd5 1-0, Traxler - Duras, Wiener Schachzeitung 1915, p. 208.

11.d6 cxd6 12.0-0

If 12.Qxd6, the reply 12...0-0 is probably best. (12...b5 Tzermiadianos - Kotronias, Athens 1998, seems slightly better for White) 13.0-0 (White might try 13.00-0 Nf5 14.Qf4 d6!? [or 14...Ne7 15.Bd5 Nxd5 16.Rxd5 d6 17.Qxd6 draw, Engelbert - Budzyn, Kiel Open 2006] 15.g4, but both 15...Ne7 and 15...Nh6 seem to be acceptable for Black) 13...Nf5, about =.

12...0-0.

12...d5 13.Bxd5 0-0 14.Rfe1 d6 and soon a draw was agreed in Berlinsky - Estrada Nieto, Istanbul 2001.

13.Qxd6 Nf5 14.Qf4 d5 15.Rad1 Ne7 16.Rfe1 h6 17.Qe3 Be6 18.Nd4 Bg4! 19.Be2 Bxe2 20.Rxe2 Re8 =+, Satici (2354) - Cerqueira Filho (2428), Dr. Maia Vinagre Memorial 2007. The game later ended in a draw. - Instead of 13.Qxd6, the cautious 13.b3 may be more precise, to avoid later attacks on the weak pawn b2, e. g. 13...d5 14.Bxd5 Nxd5 15.Qxd5 d6 16.Rad1 Qb6 and so on; the position is equal.  

Quote:
So, that line is both important for White for the 7.Nbd2 line but also for 7.Bd2.

I agree.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #69 - 08/20/09 at 10:10:11
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Just a small contribution because I am not sure if it as been noticed.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Nxe4 8. d5 Ne7 9. O-O Nxd2 10. Bxd2 Bxd2 11. d6 cxd6 12. Qxd2 0-0

is the same as

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 Bxd2+ 8.Nbxd2 Nxe4 (rare move, the main move is 8..d5) 9.d5 (9.Nxe4 is not supposed to give White anything either) 9..Nxe2 10.Qxd2 Ne7 11.d6 cxd6 12.0-0 0-0.

Note that in the game Tzermiadianos - Kotronias (draw) 1998, White played 12.Qxd6, a move White could also play after 12.0-0 0-0 and now 13.Qxd6 instead of Rad1 is probably about equal too.

A funny thing is that the position is even gived in the book Opening for White explained where after 11..cxd6 it gives 12.Qxd6 (12.0-0-0!?) it gives 12..0-0 13.0-0 and "Black faces difficulties completing his development." But we have to agree that their thoughts are often biased...

So, that line is both important for White for the 7.Nbd2 line but also for 7.Bd2.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #68 - 08/15/09 at 11:31:04
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CraigEvans wrote on 08/14/09 at 16:41:12:
I am currently analysing 8...Na5 for my own fun - too late for the competition obviously, but I think this move might be just as strong as 8...Ne7 if followed up correctly. The idea I am considering is:

8...Na5 9.Bd3 Nc5!?, again giving some tempi and making a few concessions in order to get rid of that Bd3. White cannot really hold onto the bishop now, here are the options:

a) 10.Bc2 Qe7+! 11.Kf1 (11.Qe2 b6! 12.Qxe7+ Kxe7 13.O-O Bb7 14.Re1+ Kf8 15.a3 Bxd2 16.Bxd2 Bxd5! 17.b4 Bxf3! 18.bxc5 Bd5 and black is better) b6! (Stefan's favourite move in this gambit, so much more powerful here!) 12.g3 Ba6+ 13.Kg2 Be2 14.Qe1 O-O and -/+ at least.
b)10.Be2 is weird, after 10...O-O any future a3 will allow black ...Nb3 ideas, but this might be not so bad 11.a3 Bxd2+ 12.Nxd2 (any other capture allows both Ne4 and/or Nb3 with trouble) Re8! 13.O-O d6!? 14.b4 Nab3!? 15.Bb2 Nxa1 16.bxc5 dxc5 is very double edged - materially black should be up, but white has definite play and unclear is the best I can do - I'd rather be white maybe, but that's more my temperament than an objective assessment
c)10.O-O seems most sensible, but after 10...Nxd3 11.Qe2+ Be7 12.Qxd3 O-O I highly doubt black has any worries. Maybe 13.Ne4 is a try for an edge, but black is still a pawn up and white will have to work hard to ensure his compensation is lasting.

Nowhere near conclusive, but all interesting stuff and an idea I think has been a little neglected.

Because this has no connection to the nominations and the poll, I can perhaps comment on your idea. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nbd2 Nxe4 8.d5 Na5?! 9.Bd3, your suggestion 9...Nc5 is new. I fully agree with the moves given in your analysis, your last line "c" seems critical: 10.0-0 Nxd3 11.Qe2+ Be7 12.Qxd3 0-0 13.Ne4.

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However, the resulting position looks very promising for White. The attack on the kingside, combined with the misplacement of the knight a5, which has to go a very long way to get back into civilization, is clearly worth more than the sacrificed pawn. The main line is probably: 13...b6 (sooner or later the knight has to retreat to b7) 14.Re1 Nb7 (after 14...Bb7 15.Bg5 f5 16.Bxe7 Qxe7 17.Ng3 +/- White threatens both Nxf5 and b4; 14...d6 15.b4 f5 16.Ng3 or 15...Nb7 16.Nd4 are also bad) 15.Nfg5 (threatens a quick mate by Nf6+) 15...g6 16.Qh3 h5 (forced) 17.Qc3.

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For example:
(a) 17...f5 18.d6 Nxd6 (18...cxd6 19.Qc4+ Kg7 20.Qd4+ Kg8 21.Bd2 fxe4 22.Qxe4! +/-) 19.Nxd6 cxd6 20.Qg3 Bb7 (20...Kg7 21.Nh3 +/-) 21.Ne6! dxe6 22.Qxg6+ Kh8 23.Qxh5+ Kg8 24.Qg6+ Kh8 25.Re3 Bh4 26.Rh3 Qf6 24.Qg3! Rf7 25.Bg5 +-.
(b) 17...Nd6 18.Nxd6 Bf6 19.Qb3 Bxg5 20.Ne4 Bxc1 21.Raxc1. Black cannot easily develop, e.g. 21...Ba6 22.Qe3 Kg7 23.Qc3+ f6 24.Qxc7 +/-.
(c) 17...f6 18.Nh3 Rf7 19.Nf4 Kh7 20.Qh3 d6 (20...Qh8 21.Bd2; 20...Nd6 21.g4) 21.Qe3 Rg7 22.Bd2 +/-, with lasting pressure.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #67 - 08/14/09 at 19:09:52
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Due to the fact, that everybody will win a price and the upcoming winner is quite clear (at least for me) I can freely confess, that I made a clear error in reasoning.

When I looked at the resulting position after 7.Nbd2 Ne4 I immediately felt, that white had some attacking chances in this line especially over the board, so I looked for a line which had the tendency to dry out the position. This explains my choice of 7. ...Bd2, both players have less possibilities, black gets an extra pawn and white´s small initiative is (in my eyes) deteriorating move by move, which can be exploit by black in move 90 or so Roll Eyes

I like to play this way, grabbing a pawn, to suffer in the middlegame and converting the extrapawn in the endgame. But in a competiton one has to find attacking chances, which even rybka/fritz don´t smell and @captainfuture was the only one who was looking for these lines, so congratulations for your great find! Of course black can improve at some point, but who would play 11....cd6 with a horrible pawn structure, instead of 11. ...Bb4?
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #66 - 08/14/09 at 16:41:12
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I have to agree with Ametanoitos - the position after 15...d6 16.h3 Qb6 looks dead equal. Really dead. Bishop v Knight and blah blah... but I mean, if your opponent turned down a draw when you offered it with either colour, you'd want to hit him with a pitchfork.

Shame I hadn't gotten around to going through every line before I voted... I don't believe in voting for my own nomination, as I'm guessing others might  Wink... I doubt it would have changed my mind anyway, as a lot of the analysis is very fun and original.

I am currently analysing 8...Na5 for my own fun - too late for the competition obviously, but I think this move might be just as strong as 8...Ne7 if followed up correctly. The idea I am considering is:

8...Na5 9.Bd3 Nc5!?, again giving some tempi and making a few concessions in order to get rid of that Bd3. White cannot really hold onto the bishop now, here are the options:

a) 10.Bc2 Qe7+! 11.Kf1 (11.Qe2 b6! 12.Qxe7+ Kxe7 13.O-O Bb7 14.Re1+ Kf8 15.a3 Bxd2 16.Bxd2 Bxd5! 17.b4 Bxf3! 18.bxc5 Bd5 and black is better) b6! (Stefan's favourite move in this gambit, so much more powerful here!) 12.g3 Ba6+ 13.Kg2 Be2 14.Qe1 O-O and -/+ at least.
b)10.Be2 is weird, after 10...O-O any future a3 will allow black ...Nb3 ideas, but this might be not so bad 11.a3 Bxd2+ 12.Nxd2 (any other capture allows both Ne4 and/or Nb3 with trouble) Re8! 13.O-O d6!? 14.b4 Nab3!? 15.Bb2 Nxa1 16.bxc5 dxc5 is very double edged - materially black should be up, but white has definite play and unclear is the best I can do - I'd rather be white maybe, but that's more my temperament than an objective assessment
c)10.O-O seems most sensible, but after 10...Nxd3 11.Qe2+ Be7 12.Qxd3 O-O I highly doubt black has any worries. Maybe 13.Ne4 is a try for an edge, but black is still a pawn up and white will have to work hard to ensure his compensation is lasting.

Nowhere near conclusive, but all interesting stuff and an idea I think has been a little neglected.
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #65 - 08/14/09 at 14:53:19
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You have every right to comment on rival ideas. Smiley  It's only me who has to wait until everything is over.  Cry
A theoretical dispute is the main goal of this competition.  More comments in this thread can only help the "jury" members.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #64 - 08/14/09 at 13:19:56
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I don't know if i have the right to make comments about the nominations after the poll started but i'd like to make this observation (i cant help!)

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Nxe4 8. d5 Ne7 9. O-O Nxd2 10. Bxd2 Bxd2 11. d6 and now 11... cxd6 12. Qxd2  and the analysis of Captain Future continues 12.... O-O  13. Rad1 d5 14. Bxd5 Nxd5 15. Qxd5 with a slight advantage for White which seems at least a little misleading to me. After 15...d6 the position is completelly equal with chances to win only at the Black side. Black has a pawn up (at present, which means that to recapture this White will invest a tempo or worse allow the exchange of the Queens which favours Black!) and all the endings with rooks and bishop Vs rooks and knight are potentially better for Black. It seems that White has no sign of initiative!

I have to admit that after we showed that White has nothing after 10.Nxd2 then 10.Bxd2 may be a best attempt for White to fight for a draw!

  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #63 - 08/12/09 at 17:55:18
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A very fair question Stefan - I think my typing has let me down, the last sentence is meant to read ...not so much a question of =/+, = or +/=, but +/=, +/- or +-.

But yes, what I said still might seem a little contradictory. I suppose that an exchange for a pawn should be winning in the long-run, and hence you might call it +- - however, black does have a pawn for the exchange and a little play, and therefore it is probably somewhere between +/- and +-. My initial assessment of +/= is too pessimistic I think - I've never been good with judging the use of these symbols. In words, I would describe the position as black having drawing chances, but with best play I believe white should be clearly better, if not winning. Certainly in the "grey zone" that you categorise as +/-, is the assessment (or at least, in my opinion).

Apologies for the confusion!
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #62 - 08/12/09 at 16:58:07
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Craig, thanks for participating! I won't comment on any chess details in your analysis. But I am surprised by your logic. Isn't there a contradiction in what you wrote in your nomination (main thread)?

Quote:
23.Qf4 +/= - the computer is trying to tell me that this is equalish, but it is clear that the extra material should win out eventually.

[...] The evaluation of 11...O-O-O is not so much a question of =/+, = or +/=, but +/- or +-.

If I understand everything correctly, this is what you say about the final position in your main line:

(a) The chess software wants to make you believe that it's equal.
(b) But you recognize that in fact it's +/=.
(c) Then you continue: "but it is clear that the extra material should win out eventually."
This seems to be a contradiction, since in my view a winning position would be called +-, not += (as you did, in the same line). In most theoretical works, even a +/- is used for situations of the "grey zone", where Black still has drawing chances, e.g. if White has an extra pawn in an ending.
(d) Your sentence "The evaluation of 11...O-O-O is not so much a question of =/+, = or +/=, but +/- or +-" repeats the assessment in (c), but at the same time makes the contradiction even clearer. It seems that you have changed your first assessment of your main line gradually from += (which some might see as acceptable for Black) to +/- and then even to the claim that White should win.

So I am not sure... are you saying that Black's gambit leads to a += situation, but this concrete += situation is in fact much worse, even +-?
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #61 - 08/12/09 at 15:45:21
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I have posted my nomination - possibly a minor piece of analysis compared to some others, but I felt it was necessary to begin to show that the idea of 7...d5 8.exd5 Qe7+ was interesting - however, my analyses have led me to conclude that it is also incorrect.

I only have had enough time to look at 11...O-O-O in sufficient depth to be happy with my conclusions. However, I have also spent some time with 11...c6 and here, I propose my addendum to the nomination, that this move is also insufficient.

First of all, some analysis of a move which I had high hopes for, but which hasn't quite worked: 12.a3 and now:

a) 12...Bd6? 13.Bd3 b6 14.dxc6 Bxc6 15.Bb5 Qd7 16.Bxc6 Nxc6 (16...Qxc6? 17.Qxc6 Nxc6 18.Nc4 +/= or +/-) 17.Nc4! O-O 18.Bg5 Be7 (or 18...Nd5 19.Nxd6 Qxd6 20.Rc1 +/=) 19.Rd1 Rfe8 20.Ne3 +/= and black does not have enough compensation.
b) 12...cxb5! 13.Qxb4 b6! 14.Qxe7+ Kxe7 and black looks to have sufficient play.

Therefore white's best is to ignore the bishop and instead play 12.dxc6 Nxc6 13.Ne5! O-O 14.Ndf3. Now black has three options - of course the lines cannot be exhaustive, but here is a flavour of the possibilities:

a) 14...h6 15.Bxc6! Bxc6 16.Nxc6 bxc6 17.g3 and white is ready to consolidate his material - black has little other than vague hopes of drawing
b) 14...Rae8 15.a3 Bd6 16.Bd2 Ne4 (or 16...a6 17.Nxd7! Qxd7 18.Bd3 h6 19.h4 and white is better) 17.Nxd7 Qxd7 (17...Nxd2+ 18.Nxd2 Qxd7 19.g3 +/=) 18.Be3 a6!? (what else?) 19.Bxc6 bxc6 20.Qxa6 and I highly doubt black's compensation.
c) 14...Nd5 15.Nxd7 Qxd7 16.a3 Bd6 17.Qb3 and again it does not appear to me that black has enough compensation - white has the bishop pair and, whilst black's pieces are active, white can consolidate with g3 and Kg2 - if black does not have a knockout punch then he must be worse.

What do people think? Am I being too down on black's chances? Would anyone want to take black in any of these lines? I just feel that white doesn't look in too much danger here and, if he's in no danger, then black cannot be better - even if black wins the d4 pawn, white's position is more than reasonable and, in some lines, white even keeps the bishop pair.
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #60 - 08/12/09 at 08:09:33
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This is the last day of the competition. The key question remains whether 7.Nbd2 is better or worse than the Möller Attack 7.Nc3...9.d5, the quiet old main line 7.Bd2 and the Krakov Variation 7.Kf1.  

Regarding the Möller Attack, Tim Harding had written in his ChessCafe column in 2002: "I do not think that 7.Nc3 is viable any more at high levels." In the same article, he said this about 7.Bd2: "The bottom line seems to be that 7.Bd2 is dead as a winning try for White in master chess or high-level correspondence play although the right plan for Black [7...Nxe4!] will probably take a few more years to become general knowledge at club and Internet player level."

Which leaves the Krakov Variation 7.Kf1, in my opinion a very reasonable alternative. To give you something for comparisons, here is the main line: 7. Kf1 d5! 8.exd5 Nxd5 9.Nc3 Be6. In this critical position, I believe the following is relatively best for both sides: 10.Nxd5 Bxd5 11.Qb3 Bxc4+ 12.Qxc4 Qd6 13.Bg5

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13...0-0 (13...h6 14.d5) 14.g3 Na5 15.Qb5 c6 16.Qf5 f6 (or 16...Qd5) 17.Bd2 Bxd2 18.Nxd2 Qb4 19.Rad1 Qb5+ 20.Qxb5 cxb5 21.Kg2 Rfe8 22.Kf3 Rad8 23.Ne4 with an equal position (analysis).

In short: all three traditional moves 7.Nc3, 7.Bd2 and 7.Kf1 are not much fun to play against opponents familiar with present theory. White may get equal chances, but it is more or less established that he can't get more, and after initial tactics the positions often become boring. On the other side this thread has shown that Pomtow's 7.Nbd2, in spite of its amateurish appearance, leads to lively play, and in the resulting gambit positions it is not yet clear (at least to me) whether White or Black has the advantage.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #59 - 08/11/09 at 22:56:17
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I'm sorry to hear this. Sad My condolences.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #58 - 08/11/09 at 22:47:31
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That's very sad - my condolences.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #57 - 08/11/09 at 21:32:15
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Michael Ayton speaks for me as well.
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #56 - 08/11/09 at 21:18:42
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I'm really sorry to hear about this, Ametanoitos -- you have my sincere condolences.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #55 - 08/11/09 at 21:08:10
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I would like to make some comments about our nomination but sometimes in life very bad things happen. My coach was playing in the Acropolis Open, the most historical and strong tournament held in Greece and he passed away during his game just two moves before he forces the resignation from his opponent......

This sad event has socked the chess community in Greece! My coach has been mentioned many many times by me in my posts. He has helped us many times to discover ideas. Especially in the KID section i have posted many wonderfull ideas of his that has caused the admiration of many of the members of this forum....I wish i could show him the position of the competition. He would solve the case in just a second. Im sure....

GM Grivas is one of his childhood friends and he had a reaally bad time when he was waiting in the hospital to hear some good news...but at the end these good news were not coming and he almost had a heart attack himself for losing one of his best friends.....Sorry i writte these things here, but i am in a complete sock. My coach Nikos Karapanos was like my big brother, my best friend, my mentor and many other things.

This is what GM Grivas writtes about the incident
http://tournaments.chessdom.com/acropolis-2009
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #54 - 08/11/09 at 19:59:01
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Not "four days", there is only the Wednesday left to nominate an idea. Very inventive, gewgaw...

gewgaw wrote on 08/11/09 at 16:39:06:
One can argue, but maybe Mr. Bücker it was a mistake to overflood the members with so many variations so they werent motivated to find minor novelties only. From a scientific standpoint it is for sure the right approach, but obviously it didnt work.

Maybe you are right. However, I still believe it is relatively easy to improve upon my analysis. Someone rated 1800 should perhaps need 15 minutes to detect a new idea. No spectacular refutation, but s.th. of interest. Why should it be necessary to play through all the games and analyses? One could concentrate on one of the files and check only one of the many loose ends. - In my opinion, linksspringer's 10.Bc1 or a similar "human" idea would be a good candidate for such a competition.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #53 - 08/11/09 at 16:39:06
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Four Days to go and we´ve just three nominations!

Wake up, get up, stand up community this is far too less!

One can argue, but maybe Mr. Bücker it was a mistake to overflood the members with so many variations so they werent motivated to find minor novelties only. From a scientific standpoint it is for sure the right approach, but obviously it didnt work.

So far just my nomination was discussed by other forum members and @linksspringer suggested the surprising 10.Bc1!? I still think black has nothing to fear, but this move was the only one, which really surprised me, which leads me to the unavoidable question, is this is enough for a competition and do you expect more?

gewgew
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #52 - 07/31/09 at 17:17:48
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We have found some great ideas for Black and White while we were searching for this line. Some of the ideas are really strong and engines don't even smell them!  Grin Luzin now is working some details because we put the ideas into a practical examination (we simply asked for some strong local chessplayers to defend the White side to see what they will come up!).
    We cannot ofcourse analyse all the lines deaply because there is simply a massive amount of different continuations which are not forced in character but the general conclusion seems to be that even though White has some compensation it is not enough. He has just enough compensation to stop Black to put in use his material advantage immediatelly but it seems to us that he cannot use this compensation to cause weaknesses in Blacks camp, so if Black is carefull he will win or draw the game and only if he blunders he will lose. The strenght of our idea is that after Nbd2 the position in which we will nominate our move is forced for White, which means that White has not other interesting alternatives. Please wait a day or maybe two.... Smiley as it is difficult for us to switch our brains from holidays mode to Kaissiber Competition mode!
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #51 - 07/31/09 at 14:40:39
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/28/09 at 12:48:05:
There are 15 days left until the competition ends. Are there still any attempts on the way to prove an advantage for Black? Both Gary Kasparov in the predecessors series (vol. 1) and John Nunn in his "Secrets of GM..." had made it clear that they didn't believe in the Möller Attack 7.Nc3 ... 9.d5. The system later even earned a -/+ in "Nunn's Chess Openings". 


Although I don't believe in the Moller Attack I'm surprised at the -/+.  I always thought that after 9.d5 Bf6 (9...Ne5 is probably = to =+ with best play) 10.Re1 Ne7 11.Rxe4 d6 12.Bg5 Bxg5 13.Nxg5 h6, 14.Qe2 hxg5 15.Re1 Be6 16.dxe6 f6 and 14.Bb5+ Bd7 15.Qe2 Bxb5 16.Qxb5+ Qd7 17.Qxb7 (17.Qe2? Kf8!) 17...0-0 both led to =+. 

Will be interested to see Ametanoitos and Luzin's line against 7.Nbd2 as to my eye the line is looking fairly promising for White (from the perspective of being satisfied with dynamic equality) at the moment.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #50 - 07/31/09 at 10:08:26
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Great - so there is still hope for Black's cause.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #49 - 07/30/09 at 12:35:41
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I have contacted Luzin and we are about to make a nomination about the line he has recomended. We are working the details at present. So..... Wink
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #48 - 07/28/09 at 12:48:05
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There are 15 days left until the competition ends. Are there still any attempts on the way to prove an advantage for Black? Both Gary Kasparov in the predecessors series (vol. 1) and John Nunn in his "Secrets of GM..." had made it clear that they didn't believe in the Möller Attack 7.Nc3 ... 9.d5. The system later even earned a -/+ in "Nunn's Chess Openings". If the Möller Attack isn't taken serious anymore, I had expected that the members would try harder to prove the 7. Nbd2 gambit wrong. OK, it may be premature to draw conclusions.

Another question. The character of this second topic is quite different from the first competition (French, 6.dxc5). It is simpler to choose an "already existing" topic, as in the first competition, e.g.: "Search for new ideas in the IZ of the Dutch Defence." For the 2nd competition I thought it would be more inspiring to start in the wilderness. Have you already formed an opinion which of the two models is better suited for you? - If you feel that my analyses spoiled the "unknown territory", I may add that it wouldn't be difficult to find a rare system for the 3rd competition and then give you nothing but a starting point.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #47 - 07/26/09 at 06:59:50
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Ametanoitos wrote on 07/25/09 at 14:14:08:
I tried to find something to add to the analysis but it seems that mr Buecker has done a good work [...]

Oh no, that's untrue! My analysis is full of mistakes, as always.

What I did was to check whether 7.Nbd2 is ridiculous or playable. In my opinion, it is the latter. But I still can't say whether it's +=, = or =+. Maybe this thread contains too many of my war-cries that White isn't worse. Obviously I had feared that a few loud claims of the gambit's incorrectness would deter too many who otherwise might be interested to compete. But now we have seen that the system cannot easily be refuted, thus I now step aside and won't comment anymore on nominated ideas until the competition ends.

You really shouldn't trust my analyses. Remember what Eric Schiller and Joel Benjamin wrote (Unorthodox Openings, London 1987, p. 126): "As usual with Bücker, however, his exhaustive analysis of the early stages of the game is quite good, but deteriorates as he moves deeper into the game and the number of candidate move dwindles. So [...] we follow the path of the main line a bit and then turn off when greener pastures are spotted."

This thread already uncovered my knack for b7-b6, a strange move also favoured by Rybka... (Never heard that name.) Another thread had the following:

Bibs wrote on 06/26/09 at 13:57:48:
And a recent 'give good analysis and win a goldfish' thread here instigated by Bucker which led to some interesting discussion.

That's the picture! Poor Bücker, desparately searching for the members' advice.
« Last Edit: 07/26/09 at 09:27:07 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #46 - 07/25/09 at 17:35:38
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I think the Scotch Gambit line 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 dxc3 6.bxc3 Qf6 7.Bg5 is great for White, which is why I don't trust Watson's ...Qf6 here.  Also MNb mentioned in another thread that 6.0-0 Qf6 7.Nxc3 Nxc3 8.bxc3 transposes to a sub-optimal line of the Goring Gambit (4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 Bb4 6.Bc4 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 Qf6 [7...d6 is best here] 8.0-0).  4...Bb4+ is a playable move, but it is certainly risky.

I think 5.c3 d6 6.cxd4 is better for White than the standard lines of the Giuoco Piano and would not recommend it for Black.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #45 - 07/25/09 at 14:37:43
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bc5 5.c3 d6 6.cxd4 transposes to a variation of the Italian: 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 d6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4.
The right approach is this. What do you play against the Italian proper? That will determine your choice against the Scotch Gambit.

Another example is 3.Bc4 d6 4.d4 exd4. This is probably not as good as 4...Bg4. At the other hand 5.c3 can be answered with Ne5! White's best is to head for the Hungarian with 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 d6 5.Nxd4 Nf6 6.Nc3 Be7. This is usually assessed as comfortably +=.

In my opinion Black should either play the Italian Giuoco Piano (3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4) or the Two Knights (3...Nf6). Both can be reached via the Scottish Gambit. So why should Black pose him/herself an extra problem?

At the other hand this means that everyone considering the Pomtow-Attack also should consider the transposition via the Scotch Gambit. The main disadvantage is 4.Ng5 vs. the Two Knights not being available.
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #44 - 07/25/09 at 14:14:08
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Hello! I tried to find something to add to the analysis but it seems that mr Buecker has done a good work and nothing to add from me! Maybe you'll wait for an idea to pop out of my head at the last moment!

I have a question to make if you could help me that concerns the Scotch gambit after 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4. I used to play here 4...Bb4 and after 5.c3 dxc3 6.bxc3 Qf6!? as Watson has recomended but i discovered that white has some interesting tries like 7.cxb4 or even 7.Bg5 when the situation gets highly unclear. By the way, Watson doesn't consider these two moves.

So, my question is: what do you recomend? 4...Bc5 5.c3 d6!? is an idea that several Hungarian GMs have used.

Also after 4...d6 and we have a position i think Marin has analysed in CBM 128 3.Bc4 d6!? but i haen't seen his analysis after 4.d4 cxd4 5.c3

Any help??????  Smiley
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #43 - 07/23/09 at 12:49:48
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gewgaw wrote on 07/23/09 at 11:45:07:
Huh - very cooperative play by black, especially black´s bishoproute via b7. It seems I´ve to write more than once, that moves like b7b6 (or Ne4-d6 in other lines) should be avoided, due to the long term weakness on the c-file.


I know gewgaw, I read that. But in your own variation you play 14.Qd2 b6 and a later Bb7. I was offering 14.a4 as a way to counter that plan.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/23/09 at 12:04:01:
linksspringer must have read Horowitz' book "Point Count Chess": the value of your position is measured by counting the number of squares attacked by your pieces. The diagrammed position could have been taken from that work as an extreme example...

Grin
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #42 - 07/23/09 at 12:04:01
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linksspringer must have read Horowitz' book "Point Count Chess": the value of your position is measured by counting the number of squares attacked by your pieces. The diagrammed position could have been taken from that work as an extreme example...
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #41 - 07/23/09 at 11:45:07
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linksspringer wrote on 07/23/09 at 10:41:48:
Thanks Stefan! When I was examining 10.Bc1 / 13.b4, I had in mind something like the following if Black would play the knight to d7 (via c5 or f6):
(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4 7.Nbd2
Bxd2 8.Bxd2 Nxe4 9.d5 Ne7 10.Bc1 O-O 11.O-O d6 12.Re1 Nc5 13.b4 Nd7)
15.a4 a5 (15...b6 16.a5) 16.b5 b6 17.Bb2 Bb7 18.Ra3 when I think that Black has a difficult defensive task.

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Huh - very cooperative play by black, especially black´s bishoproute via b7. It seems I´ve to write more than once, that moves like b7b6 (or Ne4-d6 in other lines) should be avoided, due to the long term weakness on the c-file.
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #40 - 07/23/09 at 10:41:48
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Thanks Stefan! When I was examining 10.Bc1 / 13.b4, I had in mind something like the following if Black would play the knight to d7 (via c5 or f6):
(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4 7.Nbd2
Bxd2 8.Bxd2 Nxe4 9.d5 Ne7 10.Bc1 O-O 11.O-O d6 12.Re1 Nc5 13.b4 Nd7)
15.a4 a5 (15...b6 16.a5) 16.b5 b6 17.Bb2 Bb7 18.Ra3 when I think that Black has a difficult defensive task.

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #39 - 07/23/09 at 09:01:42
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gewgaw wrote on 07/21/09 at 09:40:04:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nbd2 Bxd2+ 8.Bxd2 Nxe4 9.d5 Ne7 10.Bc1 d6 11.0–0 0–0 12.Re1 Nf6 [12...Nc5 Of course possible, but White has more chances for compensation after this move 13.b4 Nd7 14.Qd2 b6 [...] 15.Bb2 a5 16.a3 axb4 17.axb4 Rxa1 18.Rxa1 Bb7 19.Bb3 Re8 20.Rc1 Ne5 21.Nxe5 dxe5 22.Bxe5 Nxd5 23.Bxc7 Qe7 24.Bxd5 Bxd5 25.f3 b5 26.Bb6 Bc4=] [...]


gewgaw himself says that the side-line 12...Nc5 offers White "more chances for compensation [than 12...Nd7]". After studying 12...Nc5 for a while, I (a) can confirm that White has chances, but (b) don't see something decisive for White:

- in gewgaw's line 15.Bb2... I liked 20.h4 more (instead of 20.Rc1), e.g. 20...h6 21.Qe2 (21.h5 Nc8, White doesn't have much) 21...Ne5!

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22. Bxe5 (22. Nxe5 Nxd5 23.Qf3 dxe5 24.Rd1 Qxh4, White gets a bishop for three pawns, but Black seems to hold) 22...dxe5 (22...Nxd5 23. Qa2; 22...Ng6?? 23.Bf6 +-) 23.Qxe5 Kf8 24.Ba4 c6 25.dxc6 Bxc6 26.Rd1 Qb8 27.Bxc6 Nxc6 28.Qb5. White has a small plus.

- 15.a3!? a5 16.Rb1 has the advantage to keep more pieces on the board, which could be good for White who has more space: 16...axb4 17.axb4 b5 18.Bxb5 Bb7 19.Bb2 Nxd5 20.Nd4 Ne5 21.f4 c6 (or perhaps 21...Qf6!?) 22.Bf1 Ng6 23.f5 Nge7 24.Qg5 (b5) h6 25.Qg3 Nf6 26.Bc4

(a) 26...Nh5 27.Qh4 (27.Qg4 =) 27...Nf6 28.Re3 Ra4?! (28.Kh8 29.Rbe1 Neg8!) 29.Rg3 Kh8 30.Bxf7!

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30...Rxb4! (30...Rxf7? 31.Txg7! Rxg7 32.Qxf6 +-) 31.Rxg7 Nxf5 32.Qh3 Rxb2 33.Rxb2 Qa5 34.Qxf5 Qe1+ 35.Qf1 Qxf1+ 36.Kxf1 Ba6+ 37.Kg1 Kxg7 38.Ba2 =.

(b) 26...Kh8 27.Rbc1 d5 28.Bd3 Ra2 29.Bc3 Re8 (29...Ra3 30.Qf2) 30.Nf3 (30.Nb3 d4! 31.Nxd4 c5!, about =) 30...d4 31.Bc4 Nxf5 32.Qf4 Ra8 33.Bxf7 (33.Nxd4 Nd6 34.Rxe8+ Qxe8 35.Ne6 fxe6 36.Bxf6 Qg6 =) 33...Rxe1+ 34.Bxe1 Bc8 35.Rxc6 Bb7 36.Rc1 Bxf3 37.Qxf3 Rc8 38.Rxc8 Qxc8 39.Qf4 =/+=.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #38 - 07/23/09 at 08:17:14
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To detract your attention from a topic that I should rather not have mentioned, here is a youtube video showing Dmitry Chuprov (right), the GM who used 7.Nbd2 twice in his tournament practice, playing blitz. I feel this belongs in the chat and not in the main thread, since they don't play the Pomtow Attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEVYQuo0a5I
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #37 - 07/23/09 at 00:23:43
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Having spent too many hours on these boring positions, I can well understand your frustration. I found your C23, 13...Qf5, slightly less horrible, by the way, than C22, 13...Rc8 "14.b3 +=". After 14...0-0 15.Nxd4 Nxd4 16.Qxd4 Qxd4 17.cxd4 d5, White can hardly avoid to exchange all rooks on the open files, with an immediate draw. Alternatives like 13. c4 only have an experimental character and are not the kind of problems which you'd like to pose Black in a serious tournament game. - I'll publish the idea in my mag, when the move survives more PC checking (and maybe 1-2 tournament games). It's a bit unusual, but more fun to play than the lines above.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #36 - 07/22/09 at 23:19:26
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May be i must disappoint you, but i haven't found an advantage against 8...Qh5

Here is my summary:

9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bd6

A) 11.Bf6? Bxh2+!! -+ Karaklajic-Jovanovic, Palic 1996.

B) 11.h4 h6 12.Nxd6+ cxd6 13.Bf4 Qd5 Aleksic-Pavlovic, Becici 1993.

C) 11.Nxd6+ cxd6 12.Bf4 Qd5

     C1) 13.Ng5 0-0 14.Ne4 Rfd8! =+ with black advantage

     C2) 13.c3

           C21) 13...Kd7 (Nigel Davies gives this move a !) but i am not so sure after
                   14.Nxd4 Nxd4 15.cxd4 and then if 15...g5 16.Bd2!?

           C22) 13...Rc8 14.b3 +=

           C23) 13...Qf5!? is best in my opinion, e.g.
                 
                 a) 14.Bg3 dxc3 15.Qxd6 cxb2
                 b) 14.Bxd6 0-0-0 15.Nxd4 Rxd6
                 c) 14.Qd2 dxc3 15.bxc3 0-0
                 d) 14.cxd4 Qxf4 15.d5 Nd8 Black holds the position after 16.g3 Qb4 17.Ng5 h6 18.Nxf7 Nxf7.
                       Black can also try 14...0-0-0 or 14...0-0 with good counterplay.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #35 - 07/22/09 at 22:03:22
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Stefan,
have you any specific ideas against 8...Qh5?  That's the line that MNb and myself have often racked our brains over, re. how to avoid stale equality (the latest try for White is 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bd6 11.Nxd6+ cxd6 12.Bf4 Qd5 13.Ng5 0-0 14.Ne4, but I don't know if you have other ideas).
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #34 - 07/22/09 at 21:18:51
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MNb wrote on 07/17/09 at 13:41:15:
CaptainFuture wrote on 07/16/09 at 12:14:45:
Hi all, Hi Stefan,

the main problem with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 is the move in the Two Knights 5...Nxe4. You have debated about 8...Qd8 and 8...Qh5. May be there are lines for white to get an advantage. But for 30 years i am searching for a reply against 8...Qa5. As has been pointed out Qa5 is the most played move. So we have to focus on this first.
[...]
...nothing is promising. The endings are all equal. Undecided
[...]
So what is your suggestion that gives white an edge?
with kind regards,
Robert


Ahoy Captain,
the reason that we don't debate 8...Qa5 is that the problem has been solved. As I'm at work you will have to wait a couple of hours, then I can look up the line.
There is one point though. Nobody claims an advantage, neither after 8...Qa5, nor after 8...Qd8 nor after 8...Qh5. The question is if White can avoid stale equality. [...].


Sorry - this reply comes late, since I took a short holiday. - Hi, Robert. I think I've found something for White (different from MNb's line above) which avoids said stale equality. It leads to unbalanced positions with mutual chances. Some friends agreed that it looked interesting. But I won't discuss it here, it's a line with surprise value which might gain me a few points.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #33 - 07/22/09 at 20:49:53
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Luzin wrote on 07/22/09 at 15:38:34:
Ok, the engines see compensation here, mainly because of the bishop pair i guess, but i don't! Unless i can see a way for Bc4 to prove himself useful, i will not grant white any "bishop pair bonus". [...]
If you compare this position with well known 7.Nc3 positions you will see that White's pressure succeeds most when he has got rid of the c4 bishop while black cannot develop his own on f5 but has to go for b6/Bb7...

play could continue 14. Qf3 Bg6 15.h4 h5 16.Bg5 f6 17. Bd2 Qd7 and if asked by his teenager son, White should not be able to explain why he is pawn down  Wink


Welcome in this thread, Luzin! With gewgaw claiming equality and linksspringer proposing the interesting 10.Bc1 for White, your contribution for Black is just what we needed here. - It could in fact be a critical question whether the black bishop can be developed safely to f5 or g6. But I find it amusing that you mention the passive role of the Bc4. Almost every white piece is stronger than its counterpart. OK, the Bc4 is temporarily guarding the pawn d5. But that pawn is important...

Fortunately I don't have to give detailed analyses to back a nomination. But the following line may be a hint that White has play for the pawn: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Nxe4 8. d5 Ne7 9. 0-0 Nd2 10. Nd2 0-0 11. a3 Bd2 12. Bd2 d6 13. Re1 Bf5. So far Luzin. 14. Qb3 (instead of 14.Qf3, Luzin) 14...Rb8 15.Qe3 Nc8 16.Qf4 Nb6 17.Bb3 Qf6 18.Bc3 Qg6 19.Re3 f6 20.Rg3 Qh5 21.a4 (21.Bd1? Nxd5) 21...Bg6 22.a5 Nd7 23.Bd4 Rfe8 (23...b6 24.Bd1 Qf5 25.Qxf5 Bxf5 26.Rc3 +=) 24.Qc1 Rbc8 25.Bxa7 Bf7 26.h3 Bxd5 27.Qd2 Bxb3 28.Rxb3 b6 29.axb6 cxb6 30.Bxb6 and White is slightly better.  
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #32 - 07/22/09 at 15:38:34
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sorry gewgaw, your line is fine, but i think that if anything, it is actually White who needs an equalizing line in this system  Smiley

just grab the pawn and let white show us his stuff:


1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Nxe4 8. d5 Ne7 9. 0-0 Nd2 10. Nd2 0-0 11. a3

unfortunately white has to lose this tempo. I tried to make without this move, my most interesting effort being 11. Nb3 (denies another exchange, limits the Bb4 and heads for d4 to discourage the other bishop from developing naturally to f5) but black has the strong reply 11... Ng6 maintaining the options of Bd6 and Be7/Bf6

Some sample lines:
11.Nb3 Ng6
a)  12. a3
a1) 12... Bd6 may yield white enough counterplay to ... egualize, e.g.: 13.Nd4 Qf6 14. b4 a5 15. Bb2 ab4 (possibly not best but has fun) 16. ab4 Ra1 17. Ba1 (Qa1 fails due to 17...Nf4! 18. g3 Be5) ...b6 (Bb4 18. Ne6) 18. g3 (threatening Ne6) and now both Qg5 and Ne5 lead to complications but black seems to hold:
a1.1) 18... Qg5 19. Qc2 Bb7 20. Nf5 Ne7 21. Nd6 cd6 22. Qe4 Bd5 23. Bd5 Nd5 24. Rd1 Nf6 25. Qe7 Qh5 26. Qd6 Ne4 27. Qd7 Qe2 28. Qd4 f6 and black will draw easily with Qf3 and Ng5 to follow
a1.2) 18...Ne5 19. Be2 Re8 20.f4 Ng6 21. Ne6 Qe7 22. Ng7 Qe2 23. Ne8 Qe8 24. Re1 Qf8 25. f5 Bb4 26. fg6 fg6 27. Re3 (Rf1 does not work, 27... Qc5 28. Kg2 Bb7 and black wins) 27... Bc5 28. Bd4 Bb7 and this is at least equal for black.

a2) 12...Be7 looks stronger and simpler,e.g. 13. Be3 (13.Nd4 c5!) Re8 14. Re1 Bf6 15. Qd2 d6 16. Rac1 a6 17. Nd4 Nh4 18. Be2 (18. Bd3 Bh3) Nf5 =/+

b) 12. f4 this brutal attitude does not work either 12...Qf6 13. Be3 b6 [i was happy to lure Rybka into grabbing the pawn: 13...Qb2?! 14. Bd4 Bc3 15. Bc5 d6 (Re8 16. d6 and white is on top) 16. Rf2 Qa1 17. Na1 bc5 18. Nb3 Re8 19. Rf1 Bf5 20. Nc5 Rb8 21. d6 and white is better] 14. Bd4 (14. a3 Bd6 is better for black too) Qf5 15.Qf3 Bd6 16.g3 Bb7 and black's queen proves to be fine in f5, therefore black is just 1 pawn up

c) 12. Be3 may be best b6 13. Nd4 Bb7 14. Nf5 Qf6 15. Qc2 Ne7! (Ne5 16.Bd4 Bc5 17.Bc3 a5 18. Kh1 Bb4 19.Bd4 Bc5= )16. Ne7 Be7 but black still looks better


back to the "main line" 11. a3 Bd2 (natural and good IMO) 12. Bd2 d6 13. Re1 (Qb3 c5 also looks fine for black) ... Bf5
Ok, the engines see compensation here, mainly because of the bishop pair i guess, but i don't! Unless i can see a way for Bc4 to prove himself useful, i will not grant white any "bishop pair bonus". Even when black plays c5 (or c6) to relieve himself from pressure along the c file and white captures on c6, the white bishop does not become significantly active, while the mobile black center (pawns c6 and d6) looks fine.
If you compare this position with well known 7.Nc3 positions you will see that White's pressure succeeds most when he has got rid of the c4 bishop while black cannot develop his own on f5 but has to go for b6/Bb7...

play could continue 14. Qf3 Bg6 15.h4 h5 16.Bg5 f6 17. Bd2 Qd7 and if asked by his teenager son, White should not be able to explain why he is pawn down  Wink
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #31 - 07/21/09 at 12:48:35
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gewgaw wrote on 07/21/09 at 12:21:59:
linksspringer wrote on 07/21/09 at 10:25:26:
Thanks gewgaw, a lot to look at. Still going through your variations, but looking at your mainline:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nbd2 Bxd2+ 8.Bxd2 Nxe4 9.d5 Ne7 10.Bc1 d6 11.O–O O–O 12.Re1 Nf6 13.b4 b5 14.Bb3 Bb7 15.Bg5 Nexd5 16.Bxd5 Bxd5 17.Bxf6 Bxf3 18.Bxd8 Bxd1 19.Bxc7
Did you consider 19.Be7 as well?


Smiley
You´re stubborn!
Maybe I need my other backup lines!
How about 15. ...Bxd5!?
15. Bg5 Bxd5 16. Bxf6 Bxb3 17.
Bxe7 Bxd1 18. Bxd8 Bxf3 19. Bxc7 Bd5 20. Bxd6 Rfe8 =


Grin There is so much to look at! Eg after your 15. Bg5 Bxd5 16. Bxf6 Bxb3, how about 17.axb3!? gxf6 18.Nd4 with very interesting compensation.
And in your 13/14...c6 backup lines both White and Black can make a lot of different choices, my head is spinning, will have a fresh look later  Cheesy
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #30 - 07/21/09 at 12:21:59
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linksspringer wrote on 07/21/09 at 10:25:26:
Thanks gewgaw, a lot to look at. Still going through your variations, but looking at your mainline:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nbd2 Bxd2+ 8.Bxd2 Nxe4 9.d5 Ne7 10.Bc1 d6 11.O–O O–O 12.Re1 Nf6 13.b4 b5 14.Bb3 Bb7 15.Bg5 Nexd5 16.Bxd5 Bxd5 17.Bxf6 Bxf3 18.Bxd8 Bxd1 19.Bxc7
Did you consider 19.Be7 as well?


Smiley
You´re stubborn!
Maybe I need my other backup lines!
How about 15. ...Bxd5!?
15. Bg5 Bxd5 16. Bxf6 Bxb3 17.
Bxe7 Bxd1 18. Bxd8 Bxf3 19. Bxc7 Bd5 20. Bxd6 Rfe8 =
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #29 - 07/21/09 at 10:25:26
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Thanks gewgaw, a lot to look at. Still going through your variations, but looking at your mainline:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nbd2 Bxd2+ 8.Bxd2 Nxe4 9.d5 Ne7 10.Bc1 d6 11.O–O O–O 12.Re1 Nf6 13.b4 b5 14.Bb3 Bb7 15.Bg5 Nexd5 16.Bxd5 Bxd5 17.Bxf6 Bxf3 18.Bxd8 Bxd1 19.Bxc7
Did you consider 19.Be7 as well?
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #28 - 07/21/09 at 09:40:04
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Addition to equalizer-line Nomination#1: [10.Bc1]

[C54]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nbd2 Bxd2+ 8.Bxd2 Nxe4 9.d5 Ne7 10.Bc1 d6 11.0–0 0–0 12.Re1 Nf6 [12...Nc5 Of course possible, but White has more chances for compensation after this move 13.b4 Nd7 14.Qd2 b6 (14...Ng6 15.Bb2 Nde5 16.Nxe5 Nxe5 17.Bxe5 (17.Bf1!? Bd7 (17...Bf5 18.Bxe5 dxe5 19.Rxe5 Qd7 20.Qf4 g6 21.h3 Rae8 22.Rae1 Qd6 23.Qd4 Rxe5 24.Rxe5 Rd8 25.Bc4=) 18.Rac1 This is the kind of position White aims for.) 17...dxe5 18.Rxe5 Qd6 19.Rae1 Bd7=) 15.Bb2 a5 16.a3 axb4 17.axb4 Rxa1 18.Rxa1 Bb7 19.Bb3 Re8 20.Rc1 Ne5 21.Nxe5 dxe5 22.Bxe5 Nxd5 23.Bxc7 Qe7 24.Bxd5 Bxd5 25.f3 b5 26.Bb6 Bc4=] 13.b4 [13.Bg5 Ng6 14.Qd4 c5 15.dxc6 bxc6 16.Bb3 (16.Bxf6 Qxf6 17.Qxf6 gxf6³; 16.Rac1 h6 17.Bxf6 Qxf6 18.Qxf6 gxf6 19.Bb3 Bd7 20.Ba4 Rfc8 21.Red1 d5 22.Nd4 Rab8 23.Bxc6 Bxc6 24.Rxc6 Rxc6 25.Nxc6 Rxb2³) 16...c5 17.Bxf6 Qxf6 18.Qxf6 gxf6 19.Rad1 Rd8 20.Nd2 f5 21.Nc4 d5 22.Na5 d4 23.Rc1 Nf4 24.Nc6 Rf8 25.Bc4 Kg7 26.Bf1 Ne6 27.Bd3 Bb7 28.Ne5 Bd5 29.Bxf5 Bxa2 30.Nd7 Rfd8 31.Bxe6 Bxe6 32.Nxc5 Bf5 33.Red1 d3 34.Rd2] 13...b5 Seems the easiest line for = [13...Ng6 14.Bb2 c6 15.dxc6 bxc6 16.Rc1 d5 17.Bd3 Bd7 White´s compensation isn´t obvious, at least =, maybe even better for Black; 13...c6 14.dxc6 bxc6 15.Bg5 Ng6 16.Qd4 h6 17.Bxf6 Qxf6 18.Qxf6 gxf6 =; Black can go for more;] 14.Bb3 [14.Bxb5 Rb8 15.Qd3 (15.a4 Nexd5 16.Nd4 Nxb4 17.Ba3 Nfd5 18.Nc6 Nxc6 19.Qxd5 Ne7µ; 15.Nd4 Bd7 16.Bxd7 Qxd7 17.Bb2 Nexd5³) 15...Bd7 16.Bc4 Rxb4 17.Bg5 Bf5 18.Qd4 c5 19.dxc6 Nxc6 20.Qc3 (20.Bxf6 Nxd4 21.Bxd8 Nc2µ) 20...h6 21.a3 Rb8 22.Nh4 Bh7 23.Bxf6 Qxf6 24.Qxf6 gxf6³] 14...Bb7 15.Bg5 Nexd5 16.Bxd5 Bxd5 17.Bxf6 Bxf3 18.Bxd8 Bxd1 19.Bxc7 Bg4 20.f3 Be6 21.Bxd6 Rfd8 22.Bc5=
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #27 - 07/17/09 at 16:42:41
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I had some fun looking at parking the bishop on c1 to keep the e-file open and the knights out of the bishop's hair.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nbd2 Bxd2+ 8.Bxd2 Nxe4 9.d5 Ne7 10.Bc1!? 0-0 10.0-0
a) 11...Nd6 12.Bd3!? b6? (Rybka falls for this) 13.Bxh7+!
b) 11...d6 12.Re1 Nf6 13.Bg5 perhaps this gives slightly better chances compared to the Be3 version (compare gewgaw #25 above), although I am not optimistic about proving a White advantage.
edit: perhaps the space grabbing 13.b4 deserves attention - aaah more fun Wink
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #26 - 07/17/09 at 13:41:15
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CaptainFuture wrote on 07/16/09 at 12:14:45:
Hi all, Hi Stefan,

the main problem with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 is the move in the Two Knights 5...Nxe4. You have debated about 8...Qd8 and 8...Qh5. May be there are lines for white to get an advantage. But for 30 years i am searching for a reply against 8...Qa5. As has been pointed out Qa5 is the most played move. So we have to focus on this first.

After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.O-O Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 Qxd5 8.Nc3 Qa5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Neg5 O-O-O 11.Nxe6 fxe6 12.Rxe6 Bd6 13.Bg5 i have analysed the position again and again. But nothing is promising. The endings are all equal. Undecided
And i do not trust 10.Bd2. Black has some possibilities to take over the initiative. I even think that black is =+ after 10.Bd2. Sad

So what is your suggestion that gives white an edge?

with kind regards,
Robert


Ahoy Captain,

the reason that we don't debate 8...Qa5 is that the problem has been solved. As I'm at work you will have to wait a couple of hours, then I can look up the line.
There is one point though. Nobody claims an advantage, neither after 8...Qa5, nor after 8...Qd8 nor after 8...Qh5. The question is if White can avoid stale equality. Rook endgames with all four centre pawns removed and equal activity are not interesting. But after 8...Qa5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Neg5 0-0-0 11.Nxe6 we get positions with opposite castling, an asymmetrical pawn structure and mutual attacks. Above a certain level that won't be enough either to create winning chances but on my level still anything can happen.

Edit: 11...fxe6 12.Rxe6 Qf5 (Bd6 13.Bg5 and 14.Qe2 is fun - endgame, what endgame?) 13.Qe2 h6 14.Re4 g5 15.Bd2 Bg7 (Bc5 16.Re1 Rhf8 17.h3 Rg8 18.Ne5 Wecker-Hausman, corr 1964) 16.Re1 Bf6 17.h3 h5 18.h4 g4 19.Ng5 Engelbert-Kreutzkamp, 1993, is the kind of equality I don't mind at all, especially given my opinion that the Two Knights Game is equal anyway.
« Last Edit: 07/17/09 at 21:16:03 by MNb »  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #25 - 07/17/09 at 06:42:22
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Addition to equalizer-line Nomination#1:

[C54]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nbd2 Bxd2+ 8.Bxd2 Nxe4 9.d5 Ne7 10.Be3 d6 11.0–0 [11.Qc2 Nc5 12.Nd4 (12.b4 Nd7 13.0–0 0–0 14.Rae1 (14.Rac1 Nb6 15.Rfe1 Bf5 16.Qb3 Re8 17.Nd4 Nxc4 18.Qxc4 Be4 19.Nb5 Bxd5 20.Qxc7 Nf5³) 14...Nb6 (14...h6 15.Bd4 Nb6 16.Bb3 (16.Qb3 Bf5³) 16...Nexd5³) 15.Bd3 h6 16.Bd4 (16.Bxb6 axb6 17.Be4 (17.Rc1 Nxd5–+) 17...Re8 18.Nd4 (18.Rc1 f5 19.Bd3 Nxd5µ) 18...Bd7 19.Re3 c6 20.dxc6 bxc6 21.b5 d5 22.Bh7+ Kh8 23.bxc6 Nxc6 24.Nxc6 Bxc6 25.Qxc6 Rxe3 26.fxe3 Kxh7 27.Rxf7 Rxa2³) 16...Nexd5 (16...Nbxd5³) 17.a3 (17.Bh7+ Kh8 18.a3 Re8 19.h3 Rxe1 20.Rxe1 Be6³) 17...a5 18.b5 Bd7³ (18...Nf4³) ) 12...a6 13.b4 Nd7 14.0–0 0–0 15.a4 a) 15.Bg5 15...Nb6  –0.41 15...Re8 16.Rac1 h6 17.Bxe7 Rxe7 18.Nf5 Re5³ (18...Re8³) ; b) 15.Rfe1 Nb6 16.Bg5 Re8 17.Bb3 h6 18.Bxe7 Rxe7 19.Rxe7 Qxe7 20.Qc3 Qg5³; 15...Re8 (15...Nb6³) 16.Rfe1 (16.a5 h6 17.Rfe1 Nf6 18.Qb3 Nf5 19.Nxf5 Bxf5³) 16...h6 17.Rac1 Nb6 18.a5 (18.Bb3 Nbxd5³) 18...Nbxd5 19.Qb3 c6 20.Bd2 Bg4 (20...Bd7³) 21.Qg3 Qd7 22.h3 Bh5 23.Bxh6 Bg6 24.Bg5 Nf5 25.Nxf5 Qxf5³] 11...0–0 12.Re1 [12.h3 Nf5 13.Bf4 a5 14.Re1 (14.Qc2 Nc5 15.Rfe1 Nh4³) 14...Nc5 15.Rc1 h6 16.Qc2 Bd7³ (16...Nh4 17.Nxh4 Qxh4³) ] 12...Bg4 13.h3 [13.Rc1 Nf5 14.Bf4 Re8 15.h3 Bxf3 16.Qxf3 Nh4 17.Qd3 Nc5=] 13...Bh5 14.Rc1 [14.Bd3 Nf6 (14...f5!?) 15.g4 (15.Bc4 Re8 16.Bg5 Nd7 17.Rc1 h6³) 15...Bg6 16.Bc4 Re8 17.Qb3 a6³ 18.Qxb7 Qd7 19.Qb3 Nxg4 20.Bd4 Nh6µ; 14.g4 Bg6 15.Qb3 a6 16.Rad1 Qd7 17.Bd3 f5 18.Bxe4 fxe4 19.Ng5 Qb5 20.Ne6 Qxb3 21.axb3 Rf3 22.Ng5 Rf6³ 0.07/14 ] 14...Qd7 [14...a6 15.Bd3 Nf6=] 15.g4 [15.Bd4 Ng5 16.Be2 Bxf3 17.Bxf3 c5 (17...Nxf3+ 18.Qxf3 Rfe8 19.Qb3 c6 20.dxc6 bxc6 21.Qa4 Nf5³) 18.dxc6 Nxf3+ 19.Qxf3 bxc6³] 15...Bxg4 [15...Bg6 16.Nh4 (16.Nd2 Nxd2 17.Qxd2 f5) 16...f5 17.f3 (17.Nxg6 Nxg6 18.Bd3 Nh4 19.f3 Nc5³) 17...Nf6 18.Bd4 a6 19.Re6 Rf7 20.Nxg6 Nxg6 21.Bxf6 Rxf6 22.Rxf6 gxf6 23.Bd3 fxg4 24.hxg4 Re8³] 16.hxg4 Qxg4+ 17.Kf1 Qh3+ [17...Nf5 18.Bd3 Qh3+ 19.Kg1 Qg4+=] 18.Ke2 Rae8 19.Bd3 Nxd5 20.Bxe4 Nxe3 21.Kxe3 Qf5 22.Kd2 Rxe4 23.Rxe4 Qxe4 24.Rxc7 d5 25.Rxb7 Qf4+ 26.Kc2 [26.Ke1 Re8+ 27.Kf1 Qc4+ 28.Kg2 Qg4+=] 26...Rc8+ 27.Kd3 Qc4+ [27...g5!?] 28.Kd2 Qf4+ =
-----
I think Black has nothing to fear after 10.Be3; in most lines Black is slightly better and can go for an easy draw or can take some minor risks to get even more. White is a pawn down and sets all hopes to the d5 pawn; the more I analyse this position, the weaker seems the pawn and consequently the whole white position. In general Black has to avoid moves like b7b6 or Ne4-d6, because they lead to disharmony, even if they are rybka´s first choice quite often.
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #24 - 07/16/09 at 12:14:45
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Hi all, Hi Stefan,

the main problem with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 is the move in the Two Knights 5...Nxe4. You have debated about 8...Qd8 and 8...Qh5. May be there are lines for white to get an advantage. But for 30 years i am searching for a reply against 8...Qa5. As has been pointed out Qa5 is the most played move. So we have to focus on this first.

After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.O-O Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 Qxd5 8.Nc3 Qa5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Neg5 O-O-O 11.Nxe6 fxe6 12.Rxe6 Bd6 13.Bg5 i have analysed the position again and again. But nothing is promising. The endings are all equal. Undecided
And i do not trust 10.Bd2. Black has some possibilities to take over the initiative. I even think that black is =+ after 10.Bd2. Sad

So what is your suggestion that gives white an edge?

with kind regards,
Robert
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #23 - 07/16/09 at 06:31:00
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In the last line both sides have alternatives (25. Re1+ is equal; 23...Rb5), but altogether White seems to be OK, and the practical chances must be good.

Another option for Black (and now - since you cured Qd6 - perhaps more unpleasant for White) is 13...Be6 (instead of 13...Qd6 or 13...0-0) 14.Bg5 Qc8 15.Bf4 (or 15.Be3 0-0 16.Ng5) 15...Kf8, e.g.:

(a) 16. Qg5 (with plans like h4) Qd8! 17.Qxd8+ Rxd8 18.Bxc7 Rc8 =+

(b) 16.Be3 (16. Bg5; 16. Bd2) Kg8 17.Re1 or maybe 16...f4.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #22 - 07/16/09 at 03:42:27
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MNb wrote on 07/16/09 at 02:01:48:
Isn't 12.Qh5+ Ng6 13.Nf3 Qd6! 14.Be3 Bd7 15.Rd1 Qf8 16.Qg5 Qe7 17.Nd5 playable? The queens are exchanged, but the other white pieces are quite active.


Apparently 17...Qxg5 18.Nxg5 0-0 (18...Rc8 19.Bc5 Bb5 20.Ne6) 19.Nxc7 Rad8 is critical, and in the further course of events White is hampered by the unfortunate situation of his king: 20.Bxa7 Bc6 21.Bd4 Rd6 22.Nce6 Re8 23.f3 h6 24.Nxg7 Rxd4 25.Rxd4 Kxg7 26.Nh3 Re2 27.Rc4 Bd5 28.Rc7+ Kf6 29.a3 (29.Kf1 Rd2 30.Nf2 Bc6) 29...Bc6 30.b4 Re1+ 31.Kf2 Rc1 32.Ke3 Ra1 33.Kd4 (the "forced activity" of White's king, in contrast to his foregoing restriction on the first rank, is funny) 33...Ra2. Maybe 33.Kd2 offers better chances for a draw: 33...Rxa3 34.Rh7 Ra2 35.Rxh6 Kg7 36.Rh5 etc.

I'll look at the exchange sacrifice again, when I have more time. In the 12.Bf4 line I also have the impression that the "worst case" scenario with active knights, but only a pawn for the exchange, isn't too bad for White - in 8 games out of ten he should get a draw. The problem with using chess software is that it lets too many things appear very easy. Fighting with rooks against these active knights can be an unpleasant experience in practice - so many forks... And in a game many players will prefer the "safe" 13...Kf8, instead of the correct 13...Qe7.

Edit: An even bigger problem with chess software is that sometimes I forget to look at the screen. After your 17.Nd5 Qxg5, the continuation 18.Nxc7+! is stronger and was probably your intention. 18...Kd8 19.Ne6+ Ke7 20.Nexg5 Rhc8 and here we have several interesting possibilities, like 21.Nxh7 Rxc2 22.Nhg5 Rxb2 23.h4 Bc6 24.Bc5+ Ke8 25.Ne6 Kf7 26.Nfg5+ Kg8 27.h5

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27...Nh8 28.Bd4 Rb4 29.a3 Rc4 30.Bxg7 Rg4 31.h6 Rxg2+ 32.Kf1 Rh2, e.g. 33.h7+ or 33.Rd6!, about =. Chess is a fascinating game. No doubt that after your 17.Nd5 endless analyses are possible, hard to believe that it should not be a good weapon for OTB play!
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #21 - 07/16/09 at 02:01:48
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Gewgaw was joking - he is the only nominee thus far.
I hope to prove an edge for Black. But I need time to check my idea as well.

Isn't 12.Qh5+ Ng6 13.Nf3 Qd6! 14.Be3 Bd7 15.Rd1 Qf8 16.Qg5 Qe7 17.Nd5 playable? The queens are exchanged, but the other white pieces are quite active.
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #20 - 07/15/09 at 23:39:27
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I disagree - I have some ideas of my own, I just need to a) decide which novelty to nominate b) Analyse them in more detail.

I haven't looked at your 12...a5 idea yet, although 10.Be3 is probably the critical test.
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #19 - 07/15/09 at 15:07:13
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Okay, everything has been said, conclusions and nominations are made - time for the poll!
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #18 - 07/15/09 at 08:34:39
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Perhaps there is an alternative. After 8...Qd8 9.Rxe4+ Be7 10.Nxd4 f5 White has the adventurous exchange sacrifice 11.Rxe7+!?. Maybe that would be more to the taste of your son? (Ernst Grünfeld in his "Taschenbuch der Eröffnungen" of the 1950ies even attributed an ! to Rxe7+ in the Canal version of this position, i. e. with an additional black pawn on c4. It's a hint that this sacrifice is difficult to assess...).

After 11...Nxe7 (11...Qxe7? 12.Nd5) there are two moves:

(a) 12. Bg5 0-0 13.Ndb5 Qxd1+ 14.Rxd1 Ng6 15. Nxc7 Rb8 16.h4 f4! was in Kais. 28 (after a few more moves: "=", in reality it's closer to =+).  

(b) Today I find 12.Qh5+ (not in Kais. 28) more interesting: 12...Ng6 (12...g6? 13.Qh4 +=) 13. Nf3 0-0 14.Ng5 h6 15.Qxg6 hxg5 16.Bxg5 Qd7 (16...Qe8 17.Qxe8 Rxe8 18.Nb5) 17.Bf4 c6 18.Be5. For example: 18...Qf7 19.Qg5 Re8 (19...f4? 20.Ne4) 20.f4 Qe7 21.Qg6 and now Black may have nothing better than to take the draw by repetition of moves 21...Qf7. - I don't know whether I'd like to play on with either side. But young players are often overaggressive, and here Black is materially "better", so strange things might happen. This line could be an alternative for the rare case that 8...Qd8 is played. Black has to find ten moves to equalize, and not all of them are obvious!

Edit: Apparently Gutman ignored 12.Qh5+ Ng6 13.Nf3 for a reason: 13...Qd6! 14.Be3 Bd7 15.Rd1 Qf8 16.Qg5 Qe7 17.Qh5 Bc6 18.Qxf5 Qf6 -/+ refutes White's gambit.

(c) The alternative 12.Bf4!? Ng6 13.Qe2+ also doesn't win:

(c1) After 13...Kf8 White has another fascinating gambit in 14.Be3 f4 15.Qc4 fxe3 16.fxe3 Qd7 17.Rf1+ Ke8 18.Ncb5 c6 19.Nd6+! Kd8 20.Nf7+ Kc7 21.Nxh8 Nxh8 22.Rf8 Qe7 = 23.Ne6+!? Bxe6 24.Qf4+ Kb6 25.Rxa8.  

(c2) 13...Qe7! 14.Qxe7+ Kxe7 15.Nd5+ Kd7 16.Nxc7 (16.Bxc7!? b6 17.Bg3 Bb7 18.Nf4 Nxf4 19.Bxf4 g5! 20.Bxg5 Rag8 21.Rd1 Kc8 22.h4 h6 23.Nxf5 hxg5 24.Ne7+ Kc7 25.Nxg8 Rxg8 26.h5 =+, in real life it must be a draw) 16...Rb8 17.Nce6 Nxf4 18.Nxf4 g5 19.Nd3 or 19.Nh5. In both cases Black is slightly better.
« Last Edit: 07/15/09 at 11:11:19 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #17 - 07/15/09 at 02:26:13
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Probably, I don't know from memory and am too lazy to check. Let me be a bit more specific about my problem with 8...Qd8. I have a son, 14 years old, not exceptionally talented but still enjoying chess a lot. A couple of months ago he has asked me to offer him a repertoire. I strongly have considered this 2Knight and Italian stuff (7.Nbd2 would fit nicely). Now every parent knows how critical teenagers can be.

-Dad, this endgame after 8...Qd8, why do you think it better for White? (teenagers don't care about nuances like slight edges)
-Eehh well, GM Gutman and FM Bücker say so.
-Nice Dad, they aren't around. You have to tell me why.
-Mumble mumble good for your endgame skills mumble mumble
-Sure Dad, but shouldn't you teach me?
-It is not likely that you will meet this line. 8...Qa5 is much more popular.
-Next weekend I have a tournament in Paramaribo. Those guys know their theory (they don't, but try to tell that to a teenager). So what if someone plays it? How should I continue?
-More mumble mumble try out in your games mumble mumble
-How do you mean Dad, try out? Do you know yourself?

And once again poor Dad (me) is gobsmacked.
Well, I offered him the Danish Gambit (4.Nxc3). Then I am pretty sure I have decent answers to his questions. And believe me, it took me a long time to convince him of the advantages of 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Bc4 compared to 5.Nf3 (but Dad ....).
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #16 - 07/15/09 at 01:11:00
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Would that be the one arising after 8...Qh5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bb4 11.Nxd4?
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #15 - 07/15/09 at 00:59:45
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/15/09 at 00:09:14:
But are you not too perfectionistic? To have a slightly better ending is quite normal. Even more important is what SWJediknight writes. For every 8...Qd8 game that you'll face with White, you'll get four games with 8...Qh5 and ten(!) games with 8...Qa5 (says MegaBase 2008). Under these circumstances, should you worry about 8...Qd8 being only +0.15?  


This is not the way I look at it. Those two games I mentioned above don't give an objective advantage either, but I see how to pose my opponent some problems. I am not impressed because I am not perfectionist enough to create winning chances in that endgame GM Gutman and you rate slightly better. In other words, my chess horizon is too limited once again.
I should note that I would not mind some other endgames arising after 3...Nf6 4.d4. For instance there is a line that ends with Black having an isolated e-pawn. It's not much, but it is something and enough to bully my opponent for a long time in practice.
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #14 - 07/15/09 at 00:36:01
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gewgaw wrote on 07/14/09 at 16:02:30:
You even analysed my line and tried to improve the white side:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Bxd2+ 8. Bxd2 Nxe4 9. d5 Ne7 10. Bb4  d6  11.O-O  O-O  12. Re1  a5 13. Ba3  Nc5 14. Qd2 Na4!? (you tried 14. ...b6) 15. Rac1 Nb6 ~= and again black goes for bishophunting and equalizes at least.
It seems you have a preference for the move b7-b6, very often you suggest this move for black, which weakens black´s structure. I assume you wanna give us some room to find improvements. Wink

Your 14...Na4! is quite convincing, at least I can't refute it. Maybe you are right and Black should rather avoid b7-b6 - to be able to attack pawn d5 by means of c7-c6. Since Black seems to do well here, I am now inclined to like 10.Be3 even more.   
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #13 - 07/15/09 at 00:09:14
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For the case that a chronical 1.b3 player is visiting this page, we are talking about: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 Qxd5 8.Nc3.

MNb wrote on 07/14/09 at 21:39:41:
For the moment we seem to disagree about 5...Nxe4/8...Qd8/11.Rf4 which you rated as slightly better for White. I am not impressed. And you were not a nice guy for pointing out 11.Bh6 Kf8!  Sad


Lev Gutman's (it was his article) assessment was that (8...Qd8 9.Rxe4+ Be7 10.Nxd4 f5) 11.Rf4 is slightly better for White (yes, 11.Bh6 Kf8! is a pity - not my fault, it was Gutman's idea)... hmm, I admit that a well-prepared Black player can probably hold that ending. In this sense you are right to be unimpressed. But are you not too perfectionistic? To have a slightly better ending is quite normal. Even more important is what SWJediknight writes. For every 8...Qd8 game that you'll face with White, you'll get four games with 8...Qh5 and ten(!) games with 8...Qa5 (says MegaBase 2008). Under these circumstances, should you worry about 8...Qd8 being only +0.15?

In Kais. 34 (mailed today) part I of Gutman's article on 7.Nc3!? (Canal Variation) appears. Again you'll say that this doesn't give White an edge, and from the perspective of "objective theory" you would be right. Nevertheless it contains many opportunities to go wrong and doubles Black's preparation work. Later I intend to write a third article on 8...Qa5 and 8...Qh5, a kind of surprise weapon. In my opinion Black's task to prepare for one of these systems is manageable, but if there are various white set-ups to be prepared for, the situation becomes much more unpleasant for Black.  
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #12 - 07/14/09 at 22:45:14
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My main issue with 5...Nxe4 has always been 8...Qh5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bd6, though it is possible that the recent 11.Nxd6+ cxd6 12.Bf4 Qd5 13.Ng5 0-0 14.Ne4 might be a way to generate interesting and equal play.  I haven't looked much into 8...Qd8.  But at club level few players get that far and most who do go 8...Qa5 anyway, when White can force interesting and equal play with 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Neg5.

Btw I also think the Scotch/Goring Gambit line 5.c3 dxc3 6.Nxc3!? has been underestimated for White and may not be inferior to 6.Bxf7+.  Acers and Laven in their Italian Gambit System gave some promising tries for White there.

Re. Stefan Bucker's line, nobody has yet provided a rebuttal to the 10.Be3!?.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #11 - 07/14/09 at 21:39:41
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You are absolutely right. As you probably already know I find the question "can we build a repertoire in old-fashioned style around the Italian and its relatives?" very intriguing. And like you I haven't played most of the stuff myself. I have only experience with 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 and that is a long time ago.
Btw I think 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bc5 5.c3 dxc3 6.Nxc3 not inferior to 6.Bxf7+. I think White can prove full compensation with chances of more.
For the moment we seem to disagree about 5...Nxe4/8...Qd8/11.Rf4 which you rated as slightly better for White. I am not impressed. And you were not a nice guy for pointing out 11.Bh6 Kf8!  Sad

Later edit in answer to JDKnight: hadn't we solved 8...Qh5 ? Not in terms of advantage, but in terms of dynamic play? I am thinking of Yuksel-Yargici, Antalya 2007 and Chan Yi Ren-Hasenohr, Vung Tau City 2008. O wait, the latter is exactly the line you propose.
« Last Edit: 07/14/09 at 23:34:21 by MNb »  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #10 - 07/14/09 at 19:29:27
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MNb, obviously you know more about these classical systems than I do. Thanks for the hints. Since Gutman's articles on the Max Lange stuff I got interested in the eternal quest (as thousands of players before me) to find the best move-order to reach a Max Lange Attack. Probably I'll never play a MLA myself - black MLA players are a rare species -, but to find new ideas in classical systems has a charm of its own ("How on earth could Steinitz overlook that? R... sees it in a second!"). And before you ask: no, I don't fear 5...Nxe4 in the Two Knights.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #9 - 07/14/09 at 16:31:04
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/14/09 at 07:10:17:
@Matemax: The position after 6...Bb4+ can also be reached after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4, which is of interest for those who hope for a Max Lange Attack after 4...Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5 (5...Nxe4 is more popular) 6.e5. In the case of 4...Bc5 5.c3 Nf6 (5...dxc3? 6.Bxf7+) 6.cxd4 Bb4+ we are back in the old Italian Game, when the move of the competition is 7.Nbd2. In this move-order also 4...Bb4+ has to be considered, but that's not necessarily better than the alternatives (instead of a Goering Gambit 5.c3, which results in equality, I'd prefer 5.Bd2).


Alas this is not part of the competition as I have done some analysis in the past on 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 dxc3 6.0-0 (not a Göring Gambit) and 6.bxc3 (neither, though both are obviously closely related).
By the way 4...Bc5 5.c3 dxc3 does not deserve a question-mark as White's advantage after 6.Bxf7+ is far from proven. See Müller/Vogt's excellent Danish Dynamite.
Taking your argument one step further, White may also opt for 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 and now either 3.Bc4 or 3.Nf3. White avoids the Petrov but is willing to play the Urussov (Nf6 4.Nf3 or 4.Bc4).
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #8 - 07/14/09 at 16:02:30
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hi Mr. Bücker,

first of all thxs for revising my nomination, now it looks far more professional. You even analysed my line and tried to improve the white side:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Bxd2+ 8. Bxd2 Nxe4 9. d5 Ne7 10. Bb4  d6  11.O-O  O-O  12. Re1  a5 13. Ba3  Nc5 14. Qd2 Na4!? (you tried 14. ...b6) 15. Rac1 Nb6 ~= and again black goes for bishophunting and equalizes at least.
It seems you have a preference for the move b7-b6, very often you suggest this move for black, which weakens black´s structure. I assume you wanna give us some room to find improvements. Wink


  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #7 - 07/14/09 at 09:50:41
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For comparison, the diagram after 29.Bc1 may be of interest:

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #6 - 07/14/09 at 09:47:50
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nbd2! Bxd2+ 8.Bxd2 Nxe4 9.d5 Ne7
The move nominated by gewgaw, (10.Bb4 d6 11.0-0 0-0 12.Re1) 12...a5!?, could be a good idea. Analyzing gewgaw's lines, one begins to wonder why White ever wanted his bishop on b4. Okay, he was only "parking" it there, until the Ne4 would have gone away, to return later to the a1-h8 diagonal. But gewgaw's analysis indicates that the placement of the bishop on b4 may face problems. - How about the following:
10.Be3!? (instead of 10.Bb4), for example: 10...Nd6 11.Bb3 Nef5 (hunting that bishop again) 12.Bf4 Qe7+ 13.Kf1 (I love that Krakov Variation!) 13...0-0 14.Bc2 b6 15.Qd3 g6 16.Re1 Qf6 17.Be5 Qd8 18.h4 h5 19.Rh3 Re8 20.Qd2 a5 21.Kg1 Bb7 22. Kh2 Qe7 23.Bf4 Qf6 24.Ne5 Qd8 25.Bg5 f6 26.Nxg6 Rxe1 27.Qxe1 Qe8 28.Qb1 Qxg6 29.Bc1 Qg4 30.f3 Qd4 31.Bxf5 Kh8 32.Bh7! Bxd5 33.Qg6 Be6 34.Bh6! Nf5 35.Rg3 Qxh4+ 36.Rh3 Qd4 37.Qxh5 +-.

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #5 - 07/14/09 at 07:10:17
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@Matemax: The position after 6...Bb4+ can also be reached after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4, which is of interest for those who hope for a Max Lange Attack after 4...Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5 (5...Nxe4 is more popular) 6.e5. In the case of 4...Bc5 5.c3 Nf6 (5...dxc3? 6.Bxf7+) 6.cxd4 Bb4+ we are back in the old Italian Game, when the move of the competition is 7.Nbd2. In this move-order also 4...Bb4+ has to be considered, but that's not necessarily better than the alternatives (instead of a Goering Gambit 5.c3, which results in equality, I'd prefer 5.Bd2). A more usual Max Lange move order is 3.Bc4 Bc5 and only now 4.d4, but while I believe that the Max Lange Attack is advantageous for White (+= in my analyses), I don't think that the Max Lange Gambit 4...Bxd4 5.Nxd4 Nxd4 6.Bg5 etc. gives White more than compensation. (Yes, I know the new Dzindzi DVD idea Rg8, and no, it certainly isn't advantageous for Black.)

Back to the Italian Game. I fully agree with you that the classical 7.Bd2 Bxd2+ 8.Nbxd2 d5 9.exd5 Nxd5 10.Qb3 also deserves attention. If you leaf through pre-1900 chess magazines, there are so many fascinating analyses on this position, with all the big names... I had thought that 10...Na5 11.Qa4+ Nc6 (Tarrasch) was = (I even checked the latest analysis in the subscriber section!), but had never looked at 12.Qa3!?. The reply 12...Qe7+ could give White a slight advantage in the ending. More ambitious seems 12...Ndb4 13.Qb3 0-0 14.a3 Na6 15.Qc3 Re8+ 16.Ne5 Nxe5 17.dxe5 Qg5 18.Nf3 Qf4 19.0-0 Bg4, about =, but in this line there are many loose ends.
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #4 - 07/13/09 at 22:26:12
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Matemax wrote on 07/13/09 at 15:52:51:
The reason is that after 10...Na5 11.Qa4 Nc6 White has an interesting possibility in 12.Qa3 and doesn't need to repeat moves.


What's interesting after 12. ...Qe7+  Huh
  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #3 - 07/13/09 at 18:43:16
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hi all,

don´t hate me, but I just sent an equalizer line. Wink
« Last Edit: 07/13/09 at 19:46:12 by gewgaw »  

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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #2 - 07/13/09 at 15:52:51
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Congratulations to a very interesting choice for the second run!

This may as well be one of the crucial positions for 1.e4 e5: After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 (2-knights-game) Black seems to be under pressure with the "refutation" move 4.Ng5 at the moment (at least concerning Nakamura's approach and very bad times for the Traxler recently). Therefore Black is safer to play 3...Bc5 when White may play the Evans or continue with the given move order: 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 ed4 6.cd4 Bb4

Now apart from the starting point of the analyses - 7.Nbd2 - I also think that 7.Bd2 Bd2 8.Nbd2 d5 9.ed5 Nd5 10.Qb3 gives Black some slight headache. The reason is that after 10...Na5 11.Qa4 Nc6 White has an interesting possibility in 12.Qa3 and doesn't need to repeat moves. On the other hand Black may go 10...Nce7 11.0-0 with a slightly passive position.

Smiley
  
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Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Reply #1 - 07/13/09 at 02:27:26
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Perhaps I should explain my mysterious hint in another thread, that the new topic would be mainly based on pre-WWII analyses. I had originally intended that this new competition should include both 7. Kf1 (Krakov Variation) and 7.Nbd2 (Pomtow). The pre-WWII remark refers to the corr. tournament held in Krakov (Poland) in 1909, where 7.Kf1 earned its name. Only later I thought that the Pomtow Attack 7.Nbd2 was complicated enough for the new competition, and so I decided to drop 7.Kf1.

This doesn't mean that 7.Kf1 had a defect or something. With best play, Black only equalizes, and there are several risky side-lines into which he may fall. - When I compare the "value" of the classical moves 7.Nc3 and 7.Bd2 on the one side, played in approximately 5800 games in the database, and the two "dark twins" 7.Kf1 and 7.Nbd2 on the other side, with less than 80 databased games, I see more chances for White on the underdog side. Yes, Möller's Attack was a phantastic concept, and in ECO Unzicker was so fond of 7.Bd2 (two main lines were +=, only in Rossolimo - Unzicker, 1949, Black was able to equalize)! But today most Black players know what to do against 7.Nc3 and 7.Bd2. Which makes both 7.Kf1 and 7.Nbd2 quite attractive, at least for the moment.
  
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C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
07/13/09 at 01:21:46
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Opinions, Chat, Analysis, Refutations etc.
« Last Edit: 07/17/11 at 04:17:04 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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