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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C01: French Exchange 4.c4 (Read 8330 times)
urusov
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Re: French Exchange 4.c4
Reply #14 - 09/10/09 at 20:36:36
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Thanks Scarblac for the link to my article.  Readers may appreciate knowing that it also includes (at the end) an extensive bibliography covering most sources mentioned in this thread, with the exception of "Avrukh," which I will have to track down:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2009/fr-ex-c4.htm

After researching the line for a couple years, I am still surprised that I have not found any extensive theoretical treatment of it from the White side.  There is a piece by Mednis in his *Practical Opening Tips*, but it is not very complete.  So I am still looking -- or working to fill the void.  One of the respondents to my blog also points out that "Josh Waitzkin annotates a couple games in this line in the Chessmaster audio tutorials" -- which I have not yet checked out.
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2009/08/french-defense-monte-ca...
I wish someone like Waitzkin or Ashley would write up his notes for general consumption, or that someone would include a chapter in a repertoire book.  I think it is an appealing choice for many players even if Black should be able to equalize if he knows what he's doing.

I would appreciate any additional resources, especially if accompanied by complete citation information for easy reference.  In the old days, when there was relatively little chess literature, a simple name reference was sufficient for locating material.  But these days there are so many resources out there -- and in so many languages -- that it helps to have complete bibliographic data.

I got into playing the Monte Carlo French Exchange because I was also reading Baburin, and the game he gave of Kasparov vs. Fritz 3 gave me a sense of the tactical potential of the line.  I also recommend Yuri Razuvaev's excellent "You were right, Monsieur La Bourdonnais!" from Dvoretsky and Yusupov's *Secrets of Opening Preparation* (Olms 2007): 170-180, which mostly considers positions where Black takes immediately at c4, saving White a critical tempo.

The comments about tempi in this sharp and double edged line are very true, and I think it all comes down to who blinks first.  Black indeed does best to wait on dxc4 and probably lines with c6 and no dxc4 are good (though I don't consider them at any length).  In some ways, I think of the Monte Carlo as a psychological choice more than anything, and I have had good experiences with this line against French players who favor closed and strategic variations and hate when things get too sharp.  I sometimes feel like I am forcing them to play the Black side of the Giuoco Piano or Evans Gambit, which most would never do willingly. 

It is definitely worth a try for those interested in learning more about IQP positions, and it helps complete a repertoire against the Scandinavian with 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.c4 when 3...c6 4.d4! gives you the Panov-Botvinnik -- and 3...e6! (better in my view) 4.d4! will give you the Monte Carlo.
  
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Re: French Exchange 4.c4
Reply #13 - 09/10/09 at 09:45:07
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Scarblac wrote on 09/01/09 at 10:29:03:
I can not find an existing thread on this line, so I'm starting a new one.

Michael Goeller (who I've also seen around on these forums) has recently posted a lot of analysis on the 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.c4 variation on his website -- see http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2009/fr-ex-c4.htm .

One idea is the pawn sacrifice 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.c4 Bb4+ 5.Nc3 Ne7 6.Nf3 Nbc6 7.a3! Bxc3+ 8.bxc3 0-0 9.Bd3 dxc4 10.Bxc4 Nd5 11.0-0! (annotations Goeller's).

This 4.c4 variation is interesting to me because it seems so different from the rest of the French, and because I'm studying IQP positions (working through Baburin). However, as far as I know its reputation is "easy equality for black".

What sort of lines are most common by black around the +- 2000-2200 level? What do French repertoire books recommend?


Thank for posting the link.
To your Question, Nigel Davies gives one game(p.141) Gulko vs. Psakhis 1985 in his recent book "gambiteer2" from everyman chess.

--> 4..... Nf6 5.Nc3 Bb4 6. Nf3 0-0 7. Be2 dxc4 8.Bxc4 Bg4 9.Be3 Nd5 etc.

its funny enough that this position also arises after the alpin 1d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.e3 exd4 etc or in a slighty improved version for whithe and not mentioned in the book after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c4 e5 4.e3 where i believe blacks best is again exd4 exd4 and we are again in th c4 french but black has already comitet his knight to c6 (which musnt be bad, but to me seems a bit early)

anway I share your intresst for the c4 french with both colors.
« Last Edit: 09/10/09 at 11:32:05 by chessy »  
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Re: French Exchange 4.c4
Reply #12 - 09/03/09 at 22:17:30
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Markovich wrote on 09/03/09 at 17:52:12:
Personally I wouldn't be so quick to give up a tempo.  E.g. with the French I would rather wait for White to move his KB.  In fact I think that a plausible approach for Black is to play ...c6 early and essentially never take on c4.

Yes that is how everybody plays it: Only take on c4 if the bishop moves; For the rest: Cover d5
  

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Re: French Exchange 4.c4
Reply #11 - 09/03/09 at 20:51:03
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kylemeister wrote on 09/03/09 at 18:12:48:
Speaking of early ...c6, Edmar Mednis based a discussion of this line in one of his books on the position after 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. ed ed 4. c4 Nf6 5. Nc3 c6 or 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 e5 4. e3 ed 5. ed Nf6.  Another opening which can lead to some similar/identical positions a few moves down the road is the Petroff.


Yeah, and you can get here from an ...exd6 Exchange Alekhine, although there Black has to spend a tempo to get d5 in.
  

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Re: French Exchange 4.c4
Reply #10 - 09/03/09 at 18:12:48
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Speaking of early ...c6, Edmar Mednis based a discussion of this line in one of his books on the position after 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. ed ed 4. c4 Nf6 5. Nc3 c6 or 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 e5 4. e3 ed 5. ed Nf6.  Another opening which can lead to some similar/identical positions a few moves down the road is the Petroff.
  
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Re: French Exchange 4.c4
Reply #9 - 09/03/09 at 17:52:12
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There is no difference in tempi between the line as arising from a QGA with 3.e3 e5 and that here from 4.c4 dxc4 (or later ...dxc4 so long as it precedes White's moving his KB).  As pointed out in Morozevich's book, the same position can also arise from a Chigorin via 3.Nc3 dxc4 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e3 e5.

Personally I wouldn't be so quick to give up a tempo.  E.g. with the French I would rather wait for White to move his KB.  In fact I think that a plausible approach for Black is to play ...c6 early and essentially never take on c4.

This may not be the 100% best way of playing against the French, but it isn't a bad way either.  It's nice for scholastic players and the like, since this way White can insist on an open position.  Particularly I don't think that Watson's idea with ...Bb4+ and ...Nge7 is better than any other way of playing against this.
  

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Re: French Exchange 4.c4
Reply #8 - 09/02/09 at 22:11:10
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Paddy wrote on 09/02/09 at 11:13:33:
In fact, no; 54% for White is average for the French and indeed for White in Megabase itself.

The IQP Attack against the French is merely one more playable line, and one that can score well in the hands of a decent player who has studied the typical themes. Which side you prefer is very much a matter of taste, but anyone thinking that this is actually a bad line for White is in for a nasty shock at some point. By the way, we have discussed this several times on the forum.  Roll Eyes

I would be quite interested in the extended statistics (ie from which position you took the stat). Still I think it is a bad line, not in the way that black is better, but in the way that black is quickly on his way to equality.

Btw iirc this line is also recommended in Avrukh's QGA lines, though if I am not mistaken white has a tempo more (in the French you wait for the bishop to move before captring on c4, in the QGA that is no possible anymore.)

Quote:
"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme" Wink
  

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Re: French Exchange 4.c4
Reply #7 - 09/02/09 at 11:13:33
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knightmare wrote on 09/02/09 at 08:00:58:
Paddy wrote on 09/02/09 at 00:24:41:
Of course, the quoted variation is playable for Black, but also for White! In Megabase there are 695 games which reached the position after Black's 6th move, and White scored 54%.


... which is AFAIK about 2 or 3% below the overall average success of white.


In fact, no; 54% for White is average for the French and indeed for White in Megabase itself.

The IQP Attack against the French is merely one more playable line, and one that can score well in the hands of a decent player who has studied the typical themes. Which side you prefer is very much a matter of taste, but anyone thinking that this is actually a bad line for White is in for a nasty shock at some point. By the way, we have discussed this several times on the forum.  Roll Eyes

"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
  
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Re: French Exchange 4.c4
Reply #6 - 09/02/09 at 08:00:58
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Paddy wrote on 09/02/09 at 00:24:41:
Of course, the quoted variation is playable for Black, but also for White! In Megabase there are 695 games which reached the position after Black's 6th move, and White scored 54%.


... which is AFAIK about 2 or 3% below the overall average success of white.
  

ELO 2060. Corr.: 2190. Which casts doubts if I ever knew what I was doing. At least on the Board.
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Re: French Exchange 4.c4
Reply #5 - 09/02/09 at 01:29:43
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Paddy wrote on 09/02/09 at 00:24:41:
Willempie wrote on 09/01/09 at 20:31:06:
dom wrote on 09/01/09 at 11:50:45:
I always wonder what are practical ideas or variations supporting assesment French Exchange is "equal", "easy equal" and so on.

True, during first part of 20th century, Black used to copy White moves giving symetrical pawn structures, plans...only advantage is White choses first the line...but here with c4 variation not these ideas, hence from where comes the "equal" assesment ?

So is there anything against the old variation of Uhlmann?
1.e4 e6 2.c4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Nf3 O-O 7.Be3 c6 8.Bd3 dxc4 9.Bxc4 Nbd7 10.O-O Nb6 11.Bb3 Nbd5 12.Ne5 Be6


Of course, the quoted variation is playable for Black, but also for White! In Megabase there are 695 games which reached the position after Black's 6th move, and White scored 54%.

Quite scary Grin
Who are those 20 or so losers, who managed to screw this position up? Wink
  

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Re: French Exchange 4.c4
Reply #4 - 09/02/09 at 00:24:41
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Willempie wrote on 09/01/09 at 20:31:06:
dom wrote on 09/01/09 at 11:50:45:
I always wonder what are practical ideas or variations supporting assesment French Exchange is "equal", "easy equal" and so on.

True, during first part of 20th century, Black used to copy White moves giving symetrical pawn structures, plans...only advantage is White choses first the line...but here with c4 variation not these ideas, hence from where comes the "equal" assesment ?

So is there anything against the old variation of Uhlmann?
1.e4 e6 2.c4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Nf3 O-O 7.Be3 c6 8.Bd3 dxc4 9.Bxc4 Nbd7 10.O-O Nb6 11.Bb3 Nbd5 12.Ne5 Be6


Of course, the quoted variation is playable for Black, but also for White! In Megabase there are 695 games which reached the position after Black's 6th move, and White scored 54%.
  
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Re: French Exchange 4.c4
Reply #3 - 09/01/09 at 20:31:06
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dom wrote on 09/01/09 at 11:50:45:
I always wonder what are practical ideas or variations supporting assesment French Exchange is "equal", "easy equal" and so on.

True, during first part of 20th century, Black used to copy White moves giving symetrical pawn structures, plans...only advantage is White choses first the line...but here with c4 variation not these ideas, hence from where comes the "equal" assesment ?

So is there anything against the old variation of Uhlmann?
1.e4 e6 2.c4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Nf3 O-O 7.Be3 c6 8.Bd3 dxc4 9.Bxc4 Nbd7 10.O-O Nb6 11.Bb3 Nbd5 12.Ne5 Be6
  

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Re: French Exchange 4.c4
Reply #2 - 09/01/09 at 15:37:19
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Scarblac wrote on 09/01/09 at 10:29:03:
I can not find an existing thread on this line, so I'm starting a new one.

Michael Goeller (who I've also seen around on these forums) has recently posted a lot of analysis on the 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.c4 variation on his website -- see http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2009/fr-ex-c4.htm .

One idea is the pawn sacrifice 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.c4 Bb4+ 5.Nc3 Ne7 6.Nf3 Nbc6 7.a3! Bxc3+ 8.bxc3 0-0 9.Bd3 dxc4 10.Bxc4 Nd5 11.0-0! (annotations Goeller's).

This 4.c4 variation is interesting to me because it seems so different from the rest of the French, and because I'm studying IQP positions (working through Baburin). However, as far as I know its reputation is "easy equality for black".

What sort of lines are most common by black around the +- 2000-2200 level? What do French repertoire books recommend?


You might wish to consult the thread

"A semi-open simple variation versus the French?"
  
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Re: French Exchange 4.c4
Reply #1 - 09/01/09 at 11:50:45
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Scarblac wrote on 09/01/09 at 10:29:03:
However, as far as I know its reputation is "easy equality for black"


I always wonder what are practical ideas or variations supporting assesment French Exchange is "equal", "easy equal" and so on.

True, during first part of 20th century, Black used to copy White moves giving symetrical pawn structures, plans...only advantage is White choses first the line...but here with c4 variation not these ideas, hence from where comes the "equal" assesment ?
  

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C01: French Exchange 4.c4
09/01/09 at 10:29:03
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I can not find an existing thread on this line, so I'm starting a new one.

Michael Goeller (who I've also seen around on these forums) has recently posted a lot of analysis on the 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.c4 variation on his website -- see http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2009/fr-ex-c4.htm .

One idea is the pawn sacrifice 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.c4 Bb4+ 5.Nc3 Ne7 6.Nf3 Nbc6 7.a3! Bxc3+ 8.bxc3 0-0 9.Bd3 dxc4 10.Bxc4 Nd5 11.0-0! (annotations Goeller's).

This 4.c4 variation is interesting to me because it seems so different from the rest of the French, and because I'm studying IQP positions (working through Baburin). However, as far as I know its reputation is "easy equality for black".

What sort of lines are most common by black around the +- 2000-2200 level? What do French repertoire books recommend?
« Last Edit: 07/24/11 at 09:50:28 by dom »  
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