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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread (Read 55090 times)
GMTonyKosten
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #30 - 10/07/09 at 11:07:01
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/07/09 at 03:31:12:
It's a tightrope walk, but might actually work. 22.Qf4 += (instead of your 22.Qg2) gives White only a small advantage in the ending.

True, and both 18 Nc3 Qa5 19 Qxg4 and 18 Qxg4 look dangerous for Black, too.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #29 - 10/07/09 at 03:31:12
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It's a tightrope walk, but might actually work. 22.Qf4 += (instead of your 22.Qg2) gives White only a small advantage in the ending.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #28 - 10/06/09 at 17:30:17
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/06/09 at 16:55:25:
Matemax wrote on 10/06/09 at 15:12:48:
I want to concentrate my efforts on the principal line - taking on b2. As ever taking on b2 is a risky adventure...

Indeed! I thought that you might be losing your queen after 11..Qxb2 12.Nb5 e5 13.a3 planning Rb1, but I could be wrong.

Hmm - 13.a3 is spoiling the fun in this line after 13...Bf5 14.Bc4! a6 15.Ra2 Bc2 (a last try) 16.Qf3 it is curtains for Black. Therefore 12...e5 is an error.

But Black can try 12...a6

Here some sample lines (I am sure you find an annoying improvement  Grin):

13.Rb1 Qxa2 14.Nxc7

14.Bc4 Qa5 15.Ra1 Qb4

14...Ra7 15.Ra1

15.Qxg4 Rxc7 16.Rg1 f5

15...Qb2 16.Nb5 Rd7 17.Rb1 Qa2 18.Bc4

18.Ra1 Qxd5

18...Qa5 19.Qxg4

19.dxe6 Nxf2 20.Kxf2 fxe6+ 21.Kg1 Rdf7
19.Ra1 Qb4 20.dxe6 Nxf2 21.Kxf2 fxe6+ 22.Ke2 Rdf7

19...exd5 20.Rg1 f5 21.Bxd5+ Kh8 22.Qg2 axb5

Roll Eyes I am still having fun and hopefully hold Black's position...
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #27 - 10/06/09 at 16:55:25
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Matemax wrote on 10/06/09 at 15:12:48:
I want to concentrate my efforts on the principal line - taking on b2. As ever taking on b2 is a risky adventure...

Indeed! I thought that you might be losing your queen after 11..Qxb2 12.Nb5 e5 13.a3 planning Rb1, but I could be wrong.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #26 - 10/06/09 at 15:12:48
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/06/09 at 13:41:48:
@Matemax
After 10...Qb4 what about 11 Nd2 which attacks g4, unpins the c3-knight and indirectly defends b2? 11...Nf6 12 a3 Qe7 13 dxe6 Bxe6 14 Qf3 followed by Rg1 is then a reasonable continuation.

Seems like you have opened Pandora's Box  Shocked

I want to concentrate my efforts on the principal line - taking on b2. As ever taking on b2 is a risky adventure...

Here are my suggestions - there is no final conclusion and I have to admit that deeper analysis may even show that Black is lost. In that case I would have to go to more passive lines (Your line seems to be slightly better for White but still not lost for Black - there are also alternatives as 11...ed5 and 11...Bd7).

11..Qxb2 12.Nb5 (critical!) e5! 13.Nxc7

a) 13.Rb1 Qxa2 14.Bc4 Qa5 15.Ra1 Qb4 16.Nxc7 exd4 17.e4 (17.Qb3 Qe7 18.Nxa8 dxe3∓) 17...b5!? (17...Ne5?! 18.Be2 d3 19.Bh5;  17...Qc3 18.Rc1 Qa3 19.Be2 d3 20.Bxg4 Bxg4 21.f3 Na6;  17...f5? 18.Nxa8 Nxf2 19.Kxf2 fxe4+ 20.Kg2;  17...Nf6? 18.Qb3) 18.Be2 d3 19.Bxg4 Bxg4 20.Qb3 Qxb3 21.Nxb3 Bf3 22.Rg1 Nd7 23.Nxa8 Rxa8 - I would rather be Black here

b) 13.Bc4 Qb4 (13...Bf5? 14.e4) 14.h3 Nxf2 15.Kxf2 a6 16.Nxc7 Ra7

13... exd4 14.Qc1

14.Nxa8 dxe3-+
14.e4 d3 15.Rc1 Qd4 16.Qf3 f5-+

14...Qb4 15.e4 d3 16.Bg2

16.Nxa8 Qd4-+

16...Bd7 17.Nxa8 Rc8 18.Nc7 Qd6 and Black is still fighting his game
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #25 - 10/06/09 at 13:41:48
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@Matemax
After 10...Qb4 what about 11 Nd2 which attacks g4, unpins the c3-knight and indirectly defends b2? 11...Nf6 12 a3 Qe7 13 dxe6 Bxe6 14 Qf3 followed by Rg1 is then a reasonable continuation.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #24 - 10/06/09 at 10:52:34
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/06/09 at 03:26:40:
In the case of 8...Ba6 (Willempie) 9.Bxf6 Bxf6 10.h4 (Tony Kosten) Bxc4 (Willempie) 11.Bxc4 dxc4 12.g5 hxg5 13.hxg5 Bxg5 (again Tony Kosten), the PC likes 14.Ne4 Bh6 15.Ne5 f5 16.Rxh6, e.g. 16...Qe8 17.Kd2 +-.  

Agreed - 14 Ne4 appears to win by force.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #23 - 10/06/09 at 03:26:40
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@Keano.
Hmm, 14...Bb7 15.cxd5 Bxd5 16.h5 Kh8 17.Qc2 e5 (17...Bc6 18.Bg2) 18.0-0-0 +=. But in "my" move order 14...c5 15.h5 cxd4 16.cxd5 Rd8! comes into consideration. I like 10.g5 more than the other treatment, because it is tempting for Black to grab the pawn g5 and try to keep it.

In the case of 8...Ba6 (Willempie) 9.Bxf6 Bxf6 10.h4 (Tony Kosten) Bxc4 (Willempie) 11.Bxc4 dxc4 12.g5 hxg5 13.hxg5 Bxg5 (again Tony Kosten), the PC likes 14.Ne4 Bh6 15.Ne5 f5 16.Rxh6, e.g. 16...Qe8 17.Kd2 +-.

Another nominated line is 8...Nbd7 9.Rg1 Bb7 10.g5 Ne4 (Papageno) 11.Qc2 g6 12.0-0-0 Nxc3 13. bxc3 h5. "He just doesn't allow any open lines at his king's side in most lines", Papageno. White can try 12.cxd5 exd5 13.0-0-0 Nxc3 (13...hxg5? 14.Nxe4 gxh4 15.Nc5! followed by 16.Rxg6+) 14.Qxc3 h5 15.Kb1 with some play for White. Instead of this safe, but a bit passive line, Black could accept the sharp invitation: 11...hxg5 12.Nxe4 dxe4 13.Nxg5 Bb4+ 14.Kd1 c5 15.Nxe6 Qxh4

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16.Nxg7 Kh8 17.Rg3, unclear.

It would be surprising if none of Black's many 8th move alternatives gave him at least equality. Those members who like White's chances should not hope to refute all of these lines. Rather focus on one of Black's major lines and find a good idea in this limited area.  
 
  
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Keano
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #22 - 10/05/09 at 21:15:11
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For Stefan Buecker - yes interesting transposition - in your final position after ...Bb7 we have the same position as after 14.Nxg5 Nf6 in my line.

And I agree Nxg5 is much stronger.

This is a very interesting position:

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My instinct is still slightly for Black - since after h5 he has a safe square for the king on h8, and the onus is still on White to prove his attack, since Black will come with central play very soon. Maybe its just my personal prefence but there seems something suspect about all this from Whites point of view, still I must admit its an interesting line - good for a forum discussion!
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #21 - 10/05/09 at 21:06:20
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/05/09 at 18:44:43:
Well, actually my intention was to brazenly blast through on the kingside, so 12...c6 13 g5 hxg5 14 hxg5 opening the h and g-files, and while this might not be winning against a compy, I would certainly fancy my chances OTB!

Well personally I thought that after 14..hxg5 either another pair of light pieces get off and then the queen could go to f6, otherwise the bishop should go there (combined with g6 if necessary). I thought that keeping the pawn on g4 for a while an first put some pressure on c6 wold be more dangerous to black.

OTB you would prolly win in another 10 moves with either white or black against me Wink
Quote:
In the 2nd line 10 h4 Bxc4 11 bxc4 dxc4 12 g5 hxg5 13 hxg5 Bxg5 14 Qc2 and 0-0-0, Rag1 etc. with a massive attack (albeit for two pawns).

Yes you get an attack, though I am not sure if it is enough for the 2 pawns. Black could defend with bishop to f6 at some point or even h6. Personally I always like these kinds of positions as often there is only two results possible.

I must confess that I didnt look much at this Bxf6 idea, which is kinda stupid as it is quite common in the Tartakower.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #20 - 10/05/09 at 20:53:38
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Isn't 14.Nxg5 more promising than 14.hxg5? - By the way, this situation can also arise via another move order: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.e3 b6 8.g4!? Ne4 (Keano) 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.g5!?

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10...Nxc3 (10...Nxg5 11.cxd5 exd5 12.Rg1 Nxf3+ 13.Qxf3 c6 14.Bd3 or 10...h5 11.Nxe4 dxe4 12.Nd2, in both cases with interesting complications) 11.bxc3 hxg5 12.Rg1 Nd7 13.Nxg5 Nf6. Now 13...Bb7 14.h4?! would lead to the transposition mentioned at the beginning, but here 14.Bd3 may be stronger than moving the h-pawn. 14.h4

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I'd slightly prefer White.
  
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Keano
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #19 - 10/05/09 at 20:11:43
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/05/09 at 16:59:57:
Against Keano's nomination, 8...Ne4, I suggest 9 Bxe7 Qxe7 10 Rg1 followed by the anything-but-subtle h4 and g5.


Hmm, well I suppose I have to continue more or less to my standard prescription, something like: 10...Nxc3 11.bxc3 Nd7 12.h4 Bb7 13.g5 hxg5 (13...h5 might be worth a look but I'm wary- I'll continue with natural moves) 14.hxg5 and now 14...c5

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Whose king is weaker? I´m not exactly trembling in my boots since any h-file attempts can be met by ...g6 and ...Kg7, meanwhile at some point the natural harmony in Black´s pieces will have to tell. White is basically playing coffee-house chess!
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #18 - 10/05/09 at 18:44:43
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Willempie wrote on 10/05/09 at 17:33:52:
In the first line I just dont see it after a move like 12..c6 as I see no way through on the kingside. 10. h4 Bxc4 should be doable too.

Well, actually my intention was to brazenly blast through on the kingside, so 12...c6 13 g5 hxg5 14 hxg5 opening the h and g-files, and while this might not be winning against a compy, I would certainly fancy my chances OTB!
In the 2nd line 10 h4 Bxc4 11 bxc4 dxc4 12 g5 hxg5 13 hxg5 Bxg5 14 Qc2 and 0-0-0, Rag1 etc. with a massive attack (albeit for two pawns).
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #17 - 10/05/09 at 17:33:52
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/05/09 at 16:59:57:
Against Willempie's 8...Ba6 I would again play 9 Bxf6 Bxf6 and now either 10 cxd5 Bxf1 11 Kxf1 exd5 12 h4, or the immediate 10 h4!? and in both cases g5 is coming. Note that here White doesn't have to bother moving his rook from h1 as the black light-squared bishop is no longer on b7.

In the first line I just dont see it after a move like 12..c6 as I see no way through on the kingside. 10. h4 Bxc4 should be doable too.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #16 - 10/05/09 at 16:59:57
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Against Keano's nomination, 8...Ne4, I suggest 9 Bxe7 Qxe7 10 Rg1 followed by the anything-but-subtle h4 and g5.
Against Willempie's 8...Ba6 I would again play 9 Bxf6 Bxf6 and now either 10 cxd5 Bxf1 11 Kxf1 exd5 12 h4, or the immediate 10 h4!? and in both cases g5 is coming. Note that here White doesn't have to bother moving his rook from h1 as the black light-squared bishop is no longer on b7.
  
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