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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread (Read 32442 times)
gewgaw
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #60 - 11/23/09 at 17:15:32
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Wow, I won!  Smiley

Firstly, many thanks to newinchess for all the work  they put into this competition for supplying the prizes and, of course, to nominate my idea as the most valuable.
Second, congratulations to @papagano, @keano and @stefanbuecker.
3rd, when is the next competiton  Grin

  

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Willempie
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #59 - 11/20/09 at 13:38:59
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Well me personally I like it more to refute something than to support someone else's idea.
However this g4 move has inspired me to try it out, hopefully very soon.
  

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GMTonyKosten
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #58 - 11/20/09 at 12:23:34
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 11/20/09 at 11:07:26:
Everybody seems to be positively surprised by the playability of 8.g4. I can only agree. But nobody else fought on my/the White side in the thread of the competition. In the chat thread Tony suggested ideas for White, but he didn't nominate anything. I know that it is usually easier to prove equality for Black than an advantage for White, but wasn't 8.g4 a great choice to stimulate the attacking spirits in the chesspub members?


True, it did seem that members preferred Black's chances, although personally speaking I would definitely be more happy to play the white side in an OTB game.
  
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Papageno
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #57 - 11/20/09 at 11:55:06
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Oh, thanks for mentioning my idea in 2nd place of the winner list.

I found this competition highly instructive. Mainly, because the position in question forced the participants to find a balance between initiative and material. And this was no easy task. I for once decided to analyse lines where Black refuses to pick up the pawn, but gewgaw demonstrated how Black can probably neutralize the white initiative even better by ...Nxg4. So his piece of analysis is a well deserved winner!

As to Stefan's remark that he was the only one fighting for the white side: Well, this was a competition of analysis (not a practical game), thus, supported with engines it is often easier to defend. Another argument is that obviously many chessplayers out there do not fully trust the gambit idea 8.g4 either. After all, there has not been a single new game played in this line since YB 91 raised the topic.

Thanks again for the competition! This seemed to me to bring about much more serious analysis than in most other threads of our forum.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #56 - 11/20/09 at 11:07:26
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@Tony
As I said above, the third prize The Chebanenko Slav According to Bologan should go to Keano. The rules are clear. Moreover, it is a horrible idea to tear up such a good book. Third, the book Chebanenko Slav has already been reviewed - and praised - in Kaissiber 34. So there is no problem at all.

Everybody seems to be positively surprised by the playability of 8.g4. I can only agree. But nobody else fought on my/the White side in the thread of the competition. In the chat thread Tony suggested ideas for White, but he didn't nominate anything. I know that it is usually easier to prove equality for Black than an advantage for White, but wasn't 8.g4 a great choice to stimulate the attacking spirits in the chesspub members?
  
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Keano
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #55 - 11/20/09 at 09:47:49
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I just realised I finished up in 3rd place  Wink I am kind of staggered since I had intended supplying more analysis but didnt get around to it. Like Willempie I was surprised by the viability of this g4 move - it is cave-man chess, but sometimes this can work!
  
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Willempie
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #54 - 11/19/09 at 20:58:22
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Yeah it was a nice competition. I gained some valuable insights. Funny how this neanderthal move seems quite ok.
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #53 - 11/19/09 at 16:46:31
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Many thanks to René Olthof and Peter Boel from New in Chess - they obviously put a lot of work into their decision - well done! (In the earlier competitions I knew what I did when I preferred to let a poll decide... Wink) And the topic was well chosen.
Congratulations to the three winners - Keano really shouldn't share his well deserved third prize with me, as my suggestion of 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.g5 wasn't officially nominated, it only appeared as a comment in the chat thread. The rules are saying that everybody can nominate only one idea, and that nominations have to be posted in the main thread of the competition.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #52 - 11/17/09 at 21:52:12
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gewgaw wrote on 11/17/09 at 19:12:53:
Has anyone seen white smoke by the jury?

Hopefully they are busy deciding the final placings. Smiley
  
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gewgaw
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #51 - 11/17/09 at 19:12:53
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Has anyone seen white smoke by the jury?
  

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Papageno
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #50 - 11/13/09 at 23:01:50
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Right you are, maybe it is time to ban all these premature g2-g4 advances... BTW, Carlsen has also joined the club by confronting Anand with 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 dxc4 5. Bg5 Bb4 6. a3 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 h6 8. Bxf6 Qxf6 9. e3 b5 10. a4 c6 11. Ne5 a6 12. g4 at the ongoing the Tal memorial (Moscow, 5.11.2009, ˝:˝, 36)
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #49 - 11/13/09 at 22:05:24
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By the way, Jan Werle (a GM known as having a "positional" style) played 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 Be7 5. Bg5 h6 6. Bh4 0-0 7. e3 Ne4 8. Bxe7 Qxe7 9. Rc1 Nxc3 10. Rxc3 c6 11. g4 today (successfully, against IM Van der Werf).  Where will it end?
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #48 - 11/02/09 at 23:14:31
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 11/02/09 at 13:30:09:
I am going to close the competition soon, and ask NIC to decide on the winners, so if anyone has anything to add please do so soon!! Smiley

With some new material just posted, if anyone needs a few more days, just let me know! Wink
  
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Willempie
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #47 - 11/02/09 at 22:41:35
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 11/02/09 at 13:30:09:
I am going to close the competition soon, and ask NIC to decide on the winners, so if anyone has anything to add please do so soon!! Smiley

I had a long look at my idea again last weekend, but your 9.Bxf6 spoils all my deep creative thoughts Grin
I think that as black you need to play 8..Ba6 9.Bxf6 gxf6 and then prolly 10. cxd5 Bxf1 11.Rxf1 cxd5 I think white is much better here, but black may be able to hold.
Somehow it reminds me of that line in the exchange QGD with an early Bf5 where black also gets those f-pawns, though this looks worse. Iirc short played it a couple of times (and lost to Van Wely if memory serves).
  

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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #46 - 11/02/09 at 17:44:29
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Kaissiber 35 will be mailed to the subscribers in about nine days. I apologize for being so late again.

13...Ba6 is interesting, but 14.Nh4 Bc8 15.Qf3 Nxd4!? 16.exd4 Re8+ 17.Kd1 Qxd4+ 18.Kc2 looks good for White.

Btw, Black has an alternative in 8...g6, which nobody mentioned in the two threads. Though a bit dry, it seems to be a reasonable defense.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #45 - 11/02/09 at 16:29:08
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 11/02/09 at 16:21:41:
In my opinion line "a" is critical: 11...Nbd7 12.Qf3 Nxe5 13.dxe5 and now, instead of your 13...Nd7, Black should prefer 13...Ne4 =+.


I analysed 10.Rg1 and 13. ...Ne4 in the nomination thread and black seems okay at least.
@stefanbuecker
1. is kaissiber 35 ready? It wasnt delivered to me so far?!
2. to your nomination 13.Bg2:
Rybka thinks about moves like 13. ... Rb8, but what do you propose against 13. ...Ba6, which prevents white to castle.
  

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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #44 - 11/02/09 at 16:21:41
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In my opinion line "a" is critical: 11...Nbd7 12.Qf3 Nxe5 13.dxe5 and now, instead of your 13...Nd7, Black should prefer 13...Ne4 =+.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #43 - 11/02/09 at 14:49:24
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Now the NiC competition is over there is an idea which has not yet come to the surface. (Actually, I expected someone else might have this idea and wanted to nominate it.) (Edit: I'm sorry I have completely overlooked gewgaw's analysis of this move in the competition thread, reply #9)

A number of nominations were concerning the game Barbero-Vegh and possible 12th move deviations. When looking at this game I found the following early deviation a quite funny one: 8. g4 Nxg4 9. Bxe7 Qxe7 10. Rg1!?. Play will most likely continue 10... Nf6 11. Ne5 and by now it becomes clear that White plays a real gambit but has a very pleasant development. The knight has arrived at a dominating central square e5, while the queen is ready to join the attack Qd1-f3(-g3).

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Some sample lines to show how easy all the fun might be on the white side:

a) 11... Nbd7 12. Qf3 Nxe5 13. dxe5 Nd7 14. Qg2 Qg5 15. Qxg5 hxg5 16. Rxg5 dxc4 17. O-O-O Black was in a hurry to get rid of wNe5 but White has got the somewhat better position in the ending.

b) 11... Bb7 12. Qf3 Ne4 13. Qh5 Nxc3 14. bxc3 Qa3 This attempt to counterattack and give a perpetual is refuted by the nice 15. Rb1! Qxc3+ 16. Kd1 Bc6 17. Nxc6 Nxc6 18. Qxh6 g6 19. Rg3 +- and the rook lift decides.

c) 11... Bb7 12. Qf3 Nc6 13. O-O-O Nxe5 14. dxe5 Ne4 15. Nxe4 dxe4 16. Qf6 Qxf6 17. exf6 g6 18. Rd7 Rac8 19. Bh3 Bc6 20. Re7 Although White is a pawn down in the ending he has some definite compensation with a rook on the 7th rank.

Some more computer analysis will show sufficient ressources for black, I'm sure, but this still looks like a nice idea for the first player.


« Last Edit: 11/02/09 at 16:49:01 by Papageno »  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #42 - 11/02/09 at 13:30:09
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I am going to close the competition soon, and ask NIC to decide on the winners, so if anyone has anything to add please do so soon!! Smiley
  
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Willempie
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #41 - 10/19/09 at 23:50:52
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gewgaw wrote on 10/19/09 at 20:43:56:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzPRRpLZzAQ&feature=related

What happened, no discussions anymore?

I have been a little busy, but hope to have time for it next week. Smiley
  

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GMTonyKosten
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #40 - 10/19/09 at 22:48:44
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gewgaw wrote on 10/19/09 at 20:43:56:
What happened, no discussions anymore?

Strange, maybe everything has been discovered?!
Anyway, my excuse is that I'm busy trying to get the October updates ready! Smiley
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #39 - 10/19/09 at 20:43:56
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzPRRpLZzAQ&feature=related

What happened, no discussions anymore?
  

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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #38 - 10/09/09 at 11:58:38
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Quote:
I think we agree that 10...Qb4 gives White "some" advantage

11.Nd2! (Kosten) Qb2?! - and you are right - it is too risky

.... but I am still looking at alternatives on the 11th move for Black against 11.Nd2. Against the other 11th moves I think I showed promising ways for Black.

Therefore please don't write my idea off too easily  Smiley
  
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Keano
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #37 - 10/09/09 at 10:50:37
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I will indeed back up my nomination with further analysis when time permits, the idea of it is clear enough but its getting the exact move-order right that is tricky. I may even agree to share my prize with GM King  Wink

I agree this ...Nxg4 line is critical also.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #36 - 10/09/09 at 10:15:02
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Keano wrote on 10/09/09 at 09:14:54:
Great minds think alike! I would like to clarify that I know nothing of this Power Play DVD so as far as I´m concerned its still my idea and my novelty - does my nomination still stand  Huh Also does he give any analysis in the lines we were discussing?

First of all, many thanks to MilenPetrov for that valuable piece of information! So King at least should earn some of the praise, but not of the prize. Of course, mentioning a move isn't the same as proving its strength beyond doubt. After (8...Ne4 9.Bxe7 Qxe7) I still like White's chances after 10.g5!, which in my view is critical.

That said, maybe Keano should modify his nomination and choose a "later" move (or plan). The decision whose idea has the most practical value will be NIC's task anyway.  

So far I am most impressed by gewgaw's nomination 12...Nc6! in #9 of the main thread: 8...Nxg4 (of course one of the critical lines - taking the pawn also forces the course of events, so what follows is highly important) 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.cxd5 exd5 (I think we agree that 10...Qb4 gives White "some" advantage) 11.Nxd5 Qd6 12.Nc3 Nc6!. Black's play is quite straightforward. It isn't easy to demonstrate that White can profit from the g-file, or from his center pawns. There can't be much doubt that here we have an important position of the 8.g4 system. Does anybody have a good idea for White?
  
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MilenPetrov
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #35 - 10/09/09 at 09:47:44
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Nope, he mentioned just the lines and words i cited in my post.
He also mentions that 8...Bb7 and 8...dc4 are bad for Black giving white strong kingsideattack and supports this with some analysis. I did not checked them if they compare with the posts here. During the weekend i will take a deeper look on the position and curent posts and may be i will find some new ideas/imrpovements  Wink.
My intuition tells me that Black should try to search additional resources after 8...Ne4, so i think your (and GM King's) idea deserves serious attention.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #34 - 10/09/09 at 09:14:54
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MilenPetrov wrote on 10/08/09 at 22:43:03:
Just would like to mention that the move 8...Ne4 was mentioned by GM Daniel King in his Power Play 11 DVD as a possible improvement.


Great minds think alike! I would like to clarify that I know nothing of this Power Play DVD so as far as I´m concerned its still my idea and my novelty - does my nomination still stand  Huh Also does he give any analysis in the lines we were discussing?
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #33 - 10/09/09 at 01:07:48
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MilenPetrov wrote on 10/08/09 at 22:43:03:
Just would like to mention that the move 8...Ne4 was mentioned by GM Daniel King in his Power Play 11 DVD as a possible improvement.


That's unlucky, I hope he didn't mention any other possible improvements! Roll Eyes
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #32 - 10/08/09 at 22:43:03
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Just would like to mention that the move 8...Ne4 was mentioned by GM Daniel King in his Power Play 11 DVD as a possible improvement.
And the DVD was released before Keano's post.
The variations which King give is as follows:
9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.Nxe4 (10.cxd5 Nc3 11.bc3 exd5) dxe4 11.Nd2 e5!? (11...f5!?; 11...Bb7!?) 12.d5 f5
"All these moves give Black excellent counterplay in the centre of the board, while White's kingside attack has, for the moment, ground to a halt. Moreover, White still has to find a safe place for his king. Suddenly the onus is on White to come up with decent defensive moves." - King
So I would like to nominate GM Daniel King for this Wink
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #31 - 10/07/09 at 12:34:36
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I'd like to give a short update to the nominated line (reply #4 in the competition thread) 8.g4 Nbd7 9. Rg1 Bb7 10. g5 Ne4.

A. Tony Kosten raised the question (#12 in this chat thread) whether White has 9 Bxf6 Nxf6 and then 10. Rg1 (to be followed by h4 and g5). Here I like 10... Ne4 and if still 11. h4 then I'd recommend accepting the challenge with Bxh4 12. Nxh4 Qxh4 13. Nxe4 dxe4 There is probably not much White has after this. Black is a pawn up, three pairs of minor pieces are exchanged, and even getting the rook to the h-file remains diffucult, say
a) 14. g5 hxg5 15. Qc2 (or 15. Rg3 e5) 15... c5 16. O-O-O cxd4 17. Rxd4 Bb7 18. Bg2 Rfd8 or
b) 14. Rg3 c5 (even 14... Qg5 should be fine) 15. g5 Rd8 16.
gxh6 Qxh6 or
c) 14. Qc2 Bb7 15. O-O-O Qg5 16. Bg2 Qxg4 17. Bh1 Qf5
In all lines black has the advantage with an extra pawn, I think.

B. Tony Kosten also mentioned (same #12 in this chat thread) 9 Bxf6 Nxf6 and then 10. Ne5 This knight jump is surprisingly effective, I must admit. (Or maybe not so surprisingly if we look at the white rook staying at h1 which makes the continuation h4 plus g5 much more dangerous.) Play might continue 10. Ne5 c5 11. h4 cxd4 12. exd4 Ne4 13. g5 hxg5 14. hxg5 Bxg5 15. Nxe4 dxe4 16. Qh5 Bh6 17. Ng4 Qg5 and this is about level in the endgame when White takes on h6 several times.

If Black is not happy with this course of events he may use the alternative move order 8.g4 Bb7 9. Rg1 Nbd7 which I mentioned in the competition posting and which avoids this line altogether.

C. Stefan Buecker (#23 in this chat) gave the line 8...Nbd7 9.Rg1 Bb7 10.g5 Ne4 11.Qc2 g6 12.cxd5 exd5 13.0-0-0 Nxc3 14.Qxc3 h5 15.Kb1 "with some play for White".

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I agree that this is very sensible play by White as his king now reached a safe place as well. However, in this position there is still play and counterplay. In other words, both sides have their fair share of chances. Black continues with the natural 15... c5
a) 16. dxc5 bxc5 17. Bg3 Qb6 would give excellent counterplay in a position with hanging pawns.
b) 16. Bg3 and here Black has to resist the temptation to start a pawn storm with 16... c4 because of White's play with 17. Qc2! followed by Nh4 and f2-f4-f5. But Black has the better 16...  Re8 17. Qc2 (White also has to avoid a trap: 17. dxc5 bxc5 18. Bb5 Bf8 19. Ne5? Rxe5! 20. Bxe5 Nxe5 21. Qxe5 Bg7 22. Qf4 Qb6-+) 17... Bf8 Black has regrouped his pieces and is IMHO o.k. If White tries 18. Nh4 Rc8! 19. Nxg6 cxd4 20. Qf5 fxg6 21. Qxg6+ Bg7 then I'd prefer the black side with the extra piece for three white pawns.
I believe that there is enough and interesting counterplay for the black side in the lines after 14. Qxc3 h5 15.Kb1 c5.

However, I would like to point out that the black player also has the immediate 14... c5 (instead of 14... h5) at his disposal. Some sample lines are then
15. Kb1 Rc8 16. dxc5 (16. Bh3 h5 17. dxc5 bxc5 18. Ne5 Nxe5 19. Bxc8 d4 20. exd4 cxd4 21. Bxb7 dxc3 22. Rxd8 Rxd8 23. Re1 Rd2 {equal}) 16... d4 17. exd4 Nxc5 18. Qe3 (18. d5 Bxd5 {also holds.}) 18... Be4+ 19. Ka1 Nb3+! 20. axb3 (20. Qxb3 Bc2 {picks up the rook.}) 20... Qd5 21. Bd3 Bxf3 22. Qxe7 Bxd1 23. Rxd1 Qxb3 24. Qe1 Rfd8 with a strong counterattack. More interesting stuff to study.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #30 - 10/07/09 at 12:07:01
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/07/09 at 04:31:12:
It's a tightrope walk, but might actually work. 22.Qf4 += (instead of your 22.Qg2) gives White only a small advantage in the ending.

True, and both 18 Nc3 Qa5 19 Qxg4 and 18 Qxg4 look dangerous for Black, too.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #29 - 10/07/09 at 04:31:12
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It's a tightrope walk, but might actually work. 22.Qf4 += (instead of your 22.Qg2) gives White only a small advantage in the ending.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #28 - 10/06/09 at 18:30:17
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/06/09 at 17:55:25:
Matemax wrote on 10/06/09 at 16:12:48:
I want to concentrate my efforts on the principal line - taking on b2. As ever taking on b2 is a risky adventure...

Indeed! I thought that you might be losing your queen after 11..Qxb2 12.Nb5 e5 13.a3 planning Rb1, but I could be wrong.

Hmm - 13.a3 is spoiling the fun in this line after 13...Bf5 14.Bc4! a6 15.Ra2 Bc2 (a last try) 16.Qf3 it is curtains for Black. Therefore 12...e5 is an error.

But Black can try 12...a6

Here some sample lines (I am sure you find an annoying improvement  Grin):

13.Rb1 Qxa2 14.Nxc7

14.Bc4 Qa5 15.Ra1 Qb4

14...Ra7 15.Ra1

15.Qxg4 Rxc7 16.Rg1 f5

15...Qb2 16.Nb5 Rd7 17.Rb1 Qa2 18.Bc4

18.Ra1 Qxd5

18...Qa5 19.Qxg4

19.dxe6 Nxf2 20.Kxf2 fxe6+ 21.Kg1 Rdf7
19.Ra1 Qb4 20.dxe6 Nxf2 21.Kxf2 fxe6+ 22.Ke2 Rdf7

19...exd5 20.Rg1 f5 21.Bxd5+ Kh8 22.Qg2 axb5

Roll Eyes I am still having fun and hopefully hold Black's position...
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #27 - 10/06/09 at 17:55:25
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Matemax wrote on 10/06/09 at 16:12:48:
I want to concentrate my efforts on the principal line - taking on b2. As ever taking on b2 is a risky adventure...

Indeed! I thought that you might be losing your queen after 11..Qxb2 12.Nb5 e5 13.a3 planning Rb1, but I could be wrong.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #26 - 10/06/09 at 16:12:48
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/06/09 at 14:41:48:
@Matemax
After 10...Qb4 what about 11 Nd2 which attacks g4, unpins the c3-knight and indirectly defends b2? 11...Nf6 12 a3 Qe7 13 dxe6 Bxe6 14 Qf3 followed by Rg1 is then a reasonable continuation.

Seems like you have opened Pandora's Box  Shocked

I want to concentrate my efforts on the principal line - taking on b2. As ever taking on b2 is a risky adventure...

Here are my suggestions - there is no final conclusion and I have to admit that deeper analysis may even show that Black is lost. In that case I would have to go to more passive lines (Your line seems to be slightly better for White but still not lost for Black - there are also alternatives as 11...ed5 and 11...Bd7).

11..Qxb2 12.Nb5 (critical!) e5! 13.Nxc7

a) 13.Rb1 Qxa2 14.Bc4 Qa5 15.Ra1 Qb4 16.Nxc7 exd4 17.e4 (17.Qb3 Qe7 18.Nxa8 dxe3∓) 17...b5!? (17...Ne5?! 18.Be2 d3 19.Bh5;  17...Qc3 18.Rc1 Qa3 19.Be2 d3 20.Bxg4 Bxg4 21.f3 Na6;  17...f5? 18.Nxa8 Nxf2 19.Kxf2 fxe4+ 20.Kg2;  17...Nf6? 18.Qb3) 18.Be2 d3 19.Bxg4 Bxg4 20.Qb3 Qxb3 21.Nxb3 Bf3 22.Rg1 Nd7 23.Nxa8 Rxa8 - I would rather be Black here

b) 13.Bc4 Qb4 (13...Bf5? 14.e4) 14.h3 Nxf2 15.Kxf2 a6 16.Nxc7 Ra7

13... exd4 14.Qc1

14.Nxa8 dxe3-+
14.e4 d3 15.Rc1 Qd4 16.Qf3 f5-+

14...Qb4 15.e4 d3 16.Bg2

16.Nxa8 Qd4-+

16...Bd7 17.Nxa8 Rc8 18.Nc7 Qd6 and Black is still fighting his game
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #25 - 10/06/09 at 14:41:48
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@Matemax
After 10...Qb4 what about 11 Nd2 which attacks g4, unpins the c3-knight and indirectly defends b2? 11...Nf6 12 a3 Qe7 13 dxe6 Bxe6 14 Qf3 followed by Rg1 is then a reasonable continuation.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #24 - 10/06/09 at 11:52:34
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/06/09 at 04:26:40:
In the case of 8...Ba6 (Willempie) 9.Bxf6 Bxf6 10.h4 (Tony Kosten) Bxc4 (Willempie) 11.Bxc4 dxc4 12.g5 hxg5 13.hxg5 Bxg5 (again Tony Kosten), the PC likes 14.Ne4 Bh6 15.Ne5 f5 16.Rxh6, e.g. 16...Qe8 17.Kd2 +-.  

Agreed - 14 Ne4 appears to win by force.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #23 - 10/06/09 at 04:26:40
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@Keano.
Hmm, 14...Bb7 15.cxd5 Bxd5 16.h5 Kh8 17.Qc2 e5 (17...Bc6 18.Bg2) 18.0-0-0 +=. But in "my" move order 14...c5 15.h5 cxd4 16.cxd5 Rd8! comes into consideration. I like 10.g5 more than the other treatment, because it is tempting for Black to grab the pawn g5 and try to keep it.

In the case of 8...Ba6 (Willempie) 9.Bxf6 Bxf6 10.h4 (Tony Kosten) Bxc4 (Willempie) 11.Bxc4 dxc4 12.g5 hxg5 13.hxg5 Bxg5 (again Tony Kosten), the PC likes 14.Ne4 Bh6 15.Ne5 f5 16.Rxh6, e.g. 16...Qe8 17.Kd2 +-.

Another nominated line is 8...Nbd7 9.Rg1 Bb7 10.g5 Ne4 (Papageno) 11.Qc2 g6 12.0-0-0 Nxc3 13. bxc3 h5. "He just doesn't allow any open lines at his king's side in most lines", Papageno. White can try 12.cxd5 exd5 13.0-0-0 Nxc3 (13...hxg5? 14.Nxe4 gxh4 15.Nc5! followed by 16.Rxg6+) 14.Qxc3 h5 15.Kb1 with some play for White. Instead of this safe, but a bit passive line, Black could accept the sharp invitation: 11...hxg5 12.Nxe4 dxe4 13.Nxg5 Bb4+ 14.Kd1 c5 15.Nxe6 Qxh4

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16.Nxg7 Kh8 17.Rg3, unclear.

It would be surprising if none of Black's many 8th move alternatives gave him at least equality. Those members who like White's chances should not hope to refute all of these lines. Rather focus on one of Black's major lines and find a good idea in this limited area.  
 
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #22 - 10/05/09 at 22:15:11
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For Stefan Buecker - yes interesting transposition - in your final position after ...Bb7 we have the same position as after 14.Nxg5 Nf6 in my line.

And I agree Nxg5 is much stronger.

This is a very interesting position:

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My instinct is still slightly for Black - since after h5 he has a safe square for the king on h8, and the onus is still on White to prove his attack, since Black will come with central play very soon. Maybe its just my personal prefence but there seems something suspect about all this from Whites point of view, still I must admit its an interesting line - good for a forum discussion!
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #21 - 10/05/09 at 22:06:20
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/05/09 at 19:44:43:
Well, actually my intention was to brazenly blast through on the kingside, so 12...c6 13 g5 hxg5 14 hxg5 opening the h and g-files, and while this might not be winning against a compy, I would certainly fancy my chances OTB!

Well personally I thought that after 14..hxg5 either another pair of light pieces get off and then the queen could go to f6, otherwise the bishop should go there (combined with g6 if necessary). I thought that keeping the pawn on g4 for a while an first put some pressure on c6 wold be more dangerous to black.

OTB you would prolly win in another 10 moves with either white or black against me Wink
Quote:
In the 2nd line 10 h4 Bxc4 11 bxc4 dxc4 12 g5 hxg5 13 hxg5 Bxg5 14 Qc2 and 0-0-0, Rag1 etc. with a massive attack (albeit for two pawns).

Yes you get an attack, though I am not sure if it is enough for the 2 pawns. Black could defend with bishop to f6 at some point or even h6. Personally I always like these kinds of positions as often there is only two results possible.

I must confess that I didnt look much at this Bxf6 idea, which is kinda stupid as it is quite common in the Tartakower.
  

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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #20 - 10/05/09 at 21:53:38
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Isn't 14.Nxg5 more promising than 14.hxg5? - By the way, this situation can also arise via another move order: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.e3 b6 8.g4!? Ne4 (Keano) 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.g5!?

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10...Nxc3 (10...Nxg5 11.cxd5 exd5 12.Rg1 Nxf3+ 13.Qxf3 c6 14.Bd3 or 10...h5 11.Nxe4 dxe4 12.Nd2, in both cases with interesting complications) 11.bxc3 hxg5 12.Rg1 Nd7 13.Nxg5 Nf6. Now 13...Bb7 14.h4?! would lead to the transposition mentioned at the beginning, but here 14.Bd3 may be stronger than moving the h-pawn. 14.h4

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I'd slightly prefer White.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #19 - 10/05/09 at 21:11:43
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/05/09 at 17:59:57:
Against Keano's nomination, 8...Ne4, I suggest 9 Bxe7 Qxe7 10 Rg1 followed by the anything-but-subtle h4 and g5.


Hmm, well I suppose I have to continue more or less to my standard prescription, something like: 10...Nxc3 11.bxc3 Nd7 12.h4 Bb7 13.g5 hxg5 (13...h5 might be worth a look but I'm wary- I'll continue with natural moves) 14.hxg5 and now 14...c5

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Whose king is weaker? I´m not exactly trembling in my boots since any h-file attempts can be met by ...g6 and ...Kg7, meanwhile at some point the natural harmony in Black´s pieces will have to tell. White is basically playing coffee-house chess!
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #18 - 10/05/09 at 19:44:43
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Willempie wrote on 10/05/09 at 18:33:52:
In the first line I just dont see it after a move like 12..c6 as I see no way through on the kingside. 10. h4 Bxc4 should be doable too.

Well, actually my intention was to brazenly blast through on the kingside, so 12...c6 13 g5 hxg5 14 hxg5 opening the h and g-files, and while this might not be winning against a compy, I would certainly fancy my chances OTB!
In the 2nd line 10 h4 Bxc4 11 bxc4 dxc4 12 g5 hxg5 13 hxg5 Bxg5 14 Qc2 and 0-0-0, Rag1 etc. with a massive attack (albeit for two pawns).
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #17 - 10/05/09 at 18:33:52
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/05/09 at 17:59:57:
Against Willempie's 8...Ba6 I would again play 9 Bxf6 Bxf6 and now either 10 cxd5 Bxf1 11 Kxf1 exd5 12 h4, or the immediate 10 h4!? and in both cases g5 is coming. Note that here White doesn't have to bother moving his rook from h1 as the black light-squared bishop is no longer on b7.

In the first line I just dont see it after a move like 12..c6 as I see no way through on the kingside. 10. h4 Bxc4 should be doable too.
  

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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #16 - 10/05/09 at 17:59:57
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Against Keano's nomination, 8...Ne4, I suggest 9 Bxe7 Qxe7 10 Rg1 followed by the anything-but-subtle h4 and g5.
Against Willempie's 8...Ba6 I would again play 9 Bxf6 Bxf6 and now either 10 cxd5 Bxf1 11 Kxf1 exd5 12 h4, or the immediate 10 h4!? and in both cases g5 is coming. Note that here White doesn't have to bother moving his rook from h1 as the black light-squared bishop is no longer on b7.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #15 - 10/05/09 at 17:30:51
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Markovich wrote on 10/05/09 at 15:10:21:
So pardon my confusion, where are the original terms of the competition?

It should be the thread just below or above: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1253926483
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #14 - 10/05/09 at 15:45:06
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/05/09 at 15:05:31:
Regarding Papageno's 8...Nbd7 suggestion, the bishop starts to look a bit silly on h4 when Black plays ...Ne4 (or ...Nd5), so maybe White should capture immediately: 9 Bxf6

Wink But "it's a fun line", as Peter Heine Nielsen put it in the main thread (for Markovich: www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1253926483 ). And where is the fun, if White can't sacrifice the Bh4 at the appropriate moment by g5xh6? - Oh wait, P. H. Nielsen had played Bxf6 himself. Maybe for GMs it is fun, if the opponent doesn't have any? 
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #13 - 10/05/09 at 15:10:21
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 09/26/09 at 02:04:16:
Chat here! Smiley


So pardon my confusion, where are the original terms of the competition?
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #12 - 10/05/09 at 15:05:31
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Regarding Papageno's 8...Nbd7 suggestion, the bishop starts to look a bit silly on h4 when Black plays ...Ne4 (or ...Nd5), so maybe White should capture immediately: 9 Bxf6 Nxf6 and now not 10 g5, but rather 10 Rg1 (or 10 Ne5), followed by h4 and then g5. Undecided
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #11 - 10/01/09 at 08:45:46
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gewgaw wrote on 09/30/09 at 19:44:15:
Nomination #1 - 10.g5!, which obviously leads to an advantage for white Wink


gewgaw,
I don't want to be the spoil sport but my impression is that strictly speaking this is a novelty but possibly there is not much of an improvement over the Nielsen game.
  • Nielsen-Georgiev was 10.h4 Bb7 11.g5 hxg5
  • and you proposed 10.g5 hxg5 11.h4 when Bb7 (not mentioned in your analysis) reaches the same position of their game.
So on the one hand your new move only gives some extra opportunities at move 11 to Black. On the other hand you might argue that these alternatives are new traps for Black to fall into. I'm not yet decided which view to take here.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #10 - 09/30/09 at 23:16:23
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Well I have an idea to bury this wannabe-Keres move directly Grin
Problem atm is that I can't really analyse with a computer, so there may be an obvious error with my idea. Should still take a few days before I have looked at it enough.

Should I then post it here or in the other thread?
  

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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #9 - 09/30/09 at 21:33:46
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AlanG wrote on 09/30/09 at 20:59:27:
gewgaw, in your nomination there's one sub variation, to which you've given no evaluation:

11...g4 12. Ng5 Bb7 13. Rg1 Bxg5 14. hxg5 Qxg5 15. Rxg4 Qf6

I think this may be Black's best reply. Can you show an advantage for White here?


damn u r right; I´ve to check it again; would be a pity, if it didnt work.
  

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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #8 - 09/30/09 at 20:59:27
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gewgaw, in your nomination there's one sub variation, to which you've given no evaluation:

11...g4 12. Ng5 Bb7 13. Rg1 Bxg5 14. hxg5 Qxg5 15. Rxg4 Qf6

I think this may be Black's best reply. Can you show an advantage for White here?
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #7 - 09/30/09 at 19:44:15
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Nomination #1 - 10.g5!, which obviously leads to an advantage for white Wink
I hope we see more nominations in the next days and not at the end of october, after all this is a forum to discuss about ideas.
  

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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #6 - 09/28/09 at 12:39:42
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gewgaw wrote on 09/26/09 at 14:33:09:
Nevertheless I find the priZe-policy quite strange:

I suppose the simplest is to give the 2nd prize-winner the choice between 2 and 3.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #5 - 09/28/09 at 01:05:26
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gewgaw wrote on 09/26/09 at 14:33:09:
2nd: A copy of your choice of SOS - Price: € 19,95
3rd: a copy of The Chebanenko Slav According to Bologan Price: € 24,95


Interesting, maybe they intended these to be the other way around and I mistakenly swapped them, or maybe having a choice with the SOS book is worth more than 5 Euros?! Roll Eyes
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #4 - 09/26/09 at 14:33:09
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Well, there is a proverb:
Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth!

Nevertheless I find the priZe-policy quite strange:

The most interesting ideas will be selected by New in Chess and the winners will receive the following prizes:
1st: A year's subscription to the NIC Yearbook- --> great!
2nd: A copy of your choice of SOS - Price: € 19,95
3rd: a copy of The Chebanenko Slav According to Bologan Price: € 24,95

  

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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #3 - 09/26/09 at 12:26:19
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TN wrote on 09/26/09 at 02:12:15:
Secondly, I have a question: If you make a nomination and then withdraw it, can another person submit your old nomination with more detailed analysis?

In the first (French) competition TN had put a similar question; my reply was:

Stefan Buecker wrote on 04/01/09 at 10:13:28:
In your case - member A nominates 21.a4, but later drops the idea (perhaps because B gave a refutation), and then C declares that he nominates 21.a4 - member C has to explain what his contribution to the idea 21.a4 is. This may vary from a weak "but I still like 21.a4" that won't earn him many votes, to an ingenious cure of B's "refutation". In the latter case C may in fact have a chance.

The situation now is slightly different, with the NIC staff deciding instead of the poll. But shouldn't we trust on the NIC staff's ability to tell a good idea from a bad? Start worrying about their qualification only when you've actually found two promising ideas!

I like the new topic very much, and what I like even more is that they apparently forgot to exclude me from participation.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #2 - 09/26/09 at 11:34:57
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TN wrote on 09/26/09 at 02:12:15:
Secondly, I have a question: If you make a nomination and then withdraw it, can another person submit your old nomination with more detailed analysis? Alternatively, can you submit a nomination which refutes a new idea (either suggested in the survey or in this thread)?


I'm not really sure about the first, did this ever happen during the previous competitions? For the second, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to nominate a refutation of a new idea.
Anyway, basically we are looking for new ideas, and the rules are the same as for the previous competitions.
  
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Re: NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
Reply #1 - 09/26/09 at 02:12:15
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Firstly, thank you to New In Chess for setting up the competition and choosing what is in my opinion a very interesting subject for the competition!

Secondly, I have a question: If you make a nomination and then withdraw it, can another person submit your old nomination with more detailed analysis? Alternatively, can you submit a nomination which refutes a new idea (either suggested in the survey or in this thread)?

PS: Thanks!
« Last Edit: 09/26/09 at 11:50:09 by TN »  

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NIC 8.g4 Competition Chat Thread
09/26/09 at 02:04:16
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Chat here! Smiley
  
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