Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Best Defense against an English Opening (Read 15756 times)
moahunter
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 59
Joined: 05/10/09
Re: Best Defense against an English Opening
Reply #56 - 12/28/09 at 20:28:24
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 12/18/09 at 02:49:10:
Just play the Leningrad Dutch or the Iljin-Zjenevsky and you will have even less trouble with c4/Nf3.

You make the Leningrad Dutch sound so easy, and sound... we should all take it up as our main d4/c4 defense Roll Eyes

Actually, I sort of agree. At least if you play OTB, if you can (not always possible), play your d4 defense. If you can't get there directly like f4 can for some Dutch players, then moves like e6, d6, c6 and g6 are useful transpositional tools that provide options, and time to look at whites set up.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 9992
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Best Defense against an English Opening
Reply #55 - 12/18/09 at 02:49:10
Post Tools
Just play the Leningrad Dutch or the Iljin-Zjenevsky and you will have even less trouble with c4/Nf3.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 3151
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: Best Defense against an English Opening
Reply #54 - 12/17/09 at 22:54:53
Post Tools
JustGambling wrote on 12/17/09 at 22:08:17:
Just play the King's Indian and you will never have trouble with c4/Sf3...


True, but Black does have to know how to meet White's independent English options. The most important is 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 0-0 5.d3, when Black can either play ...c5 or ...e5 depending on what suits him, and the King's Indian Attack, 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3, when 2...g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.0-0 0-0 5.d3 d6 6.e4 is equal, but Black still must know how to play these positions.

There are other options such as the Botvinnik Setup (1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.e4 d6 4.g3), the Smyslov variation (1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.b4) and various b3 lines, but these are quite harmless against a knowledgeable opponent.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JustGambling
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 7
Joined: 12/08/09
Re: Best Defense against an English Opening
Reply #53 - 12/17/09 at 22:08:17
Post Tools
Just play the King's Indian and you will never have trouble with c4/Sf3...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 9992
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Best Defense against an English Opening
Reply #52 - 12/16/09 at 02:04:44
Post Tools
There is no way you can force White to enter the Benoni after 1.c4. You should reformulate your question: what will you do after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3 cxd4 4.Nxd4 ? An attractive option is the Kasparov Gambit 4...e5 5.Ndb5 d5.
Then 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 suggests itself.

Or do you prefer 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3/Nf3 c5 allowing 4.Nf3/Nc3 cxd4 5.Nxd4 ? The same position results from 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 c5 3.Nf3 e6 4.d4.

Of course White does not need to play d2-d4 either after 1.c4. Black might play an early ...d5, an early Queen's Fianchetto or even a Double Fianchetto.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Reverse
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 199
Location: USA
Joined: 11/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: Best Defense against an English Opening
Reply #51 - 12/16/09 at 01:23:22
Post Tools
If I play the benoni as black, what defense against the english will allow me to transpose back into the benoni if white is willing? Or should I just focus on playing the most aggressive system against the english? What would that be?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 9992
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Best Defense against an English Opening
Reply #50 - 12/16/09 at 01:10:54
Post Tools
I also suppose that Black will not object to meet 1.c4 Nf6 2.d4 because he/she also has 1.d4 Nf6 in his/her repertoire.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Best Defense against an English Opening
Reply #49 - 12/15/09 at 14:00:56
Post Tools
BPaulsen wrote on 12/15/09 at 06:36:29:
You couldn't see a reason for his suggestions, when the avoidance of Pure Symmetricals (1. c4 c5 2. Nc3/g3 Nc6/g6, etc., without transposition to ECO A-39) is the primary point.


Fair enough.  Actually I did understand that, I just wanted to hear someone to argue the case that avoiding the "Pure Symmetrical" is enough reason to build up such a vast repertoire just to deal with the English.  The opportunity to play the early ...e5 is the reason I personally like 2...Nc6.

My point about "interesting" was only that it's rather circular to defend a repertoire choice based on what's interesting, since as you point out, one's interest is subjective, and naturally tends to follow one's repertoire choices.

To come back to the "Pure Symmetrical," personally I'm always happy to enter, I'm not sure what to call them, highly closed but rather balanced positions, as Black.  For example, the Closed Sicilian with 2...Nc6 or the Symmetrical English.  Closed positions where, unlike the Mar del Plata or the French, Black hasn't radically conceded half the board (all right, I admit that I find those intriguing also).  On the one hand the value of the tempo diminishes, and on the other one's ability to unbalance the game in one way or another seems to be enhanced.  But I'm off in Meta-Theory Land or at any rate, expressing mere personal preference.

Really I think the strongest criticism of 1...Nf6 is that it offers White the golden opportunity to return to 1.d4, 2.c4, but I suppose that playing 1.c4 is a kind of signal that White isn't going to do that.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1697
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: Best Defense against an English Opening
Reply #48 - 12/15/09 at 06:36:29
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 12/14/09 at 15:00:27:
BPaulsen wrote on 12/13/09 at 22:16:16:
1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e5 is ... more interesting than the Symmetrical English that comes up after 1. c4 c5 2. Nc3.


What is interesting to someone is a subjective matter.  Personally I have no lack of interest in play after 1...c5.


Obviously you do, or you wouldn't play it. Obviously black players feel the game interesting, too, after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6, otherwise they wouldn't play it. Same thing, but not to everyone's tastes.

You couldn't see a reason for his suggestions, when the avoidance of Pure Symmetricals (1. c4 c5 2. Nc3/g3 Nc6/g6, etc., without transposition to ECO A-39) is the primary point.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Best Defense against an English Opening
Reply #47 - 12/14/09 at 15:00:27
Post Tools
BPaulsen wrote on 12/13/09 at 22:16:16:
1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e5 is ... more interesting than the Symmetrical English that comes up after 1. c4 c5 2. Nc3.


What is interesting to someone is a subjective matter.  Personally I have no lack of interest in play after 1...c5.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alias
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1487
Location: East of the river Svartån
Joined: 11/19/04
Re: Best Defense against an English Opening
Reply #46 - 12/14/09 at 14:13:28
Post Tools
Antillian wrote on 12/14/09 at 11:57:55:
Whether these choices are best are not is quite debatable. But more importantly, it is simply not practical for a regular player to learn so many defenses against White's fourth most popular opening choice.


All true, but for a CC player the case is different.
  

Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Antillian
God Member
*****
Offline


Brilliance without dazzle!

Posts: 1737
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: Best Defense against an English Opening
Reply #45 - 12/14/09 at 11:57:55
Post Tools
Whether these choices are best are not is quite debatable. But more importantly, it is simply not practical for a regular player to learn so many defenses against White's fourth most popular opening choice.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alias
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1487
Location: East of the river Svartån
Joined: 11/19/04
Re: Best Defense against an English Opening
Reply #44 - 12/14/09 at 07:25:43
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 12/13/09 at 21:35:48:
tracke wrote on 12/11/09 at 11:29:48:
In my (honest!) opinion the solution is to know everything and to be flexible:

1 c4 Nf6! and then: 2 d4 e6! , 2 Nc3 e5! , 2 g3 c6! , 2 Nf3 c5! , 2 (others) g6!

tracke  Smiley


Are you joking?  If not, that really is over the top.  I can see no reason why Black should have to have both 1...e5 and 1...c5 (which effectively is what you recommend) in his repertoire.  Maybe, for example, you would be good enough to explain what Black gains by delaying ...c5 until after 2...Nf6 3.Nf3, particularly since the thereby foregoes 2...Nc6.


Best = best theoretically (in his opinion). No joke, I think.
  

Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1697
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: Best Defense against an English Opening
Reply #43 - 12/13/09 at 22:16:16
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 12/13/09 at 21:35:48:
tracke wrote on 12/11/09 at 11:29:48:
In my (honest!) opinion the solution is to know everything and to be flexible:

1 c4 Nf6! and then: 2 d4 e6! , 2 Nc3 e5! , 2 g3 c6! , 2 Nf3 c5! , 2 (others) g6!

tracke  Smiley


Are you joking?  If not, that really is over the top.  I can see no reason why Black should have to have both 1...e5 and 1...c5 (which effectively is what you recommend) in his repertoire.  Maybe, for example, you would be good enough to explain what Black gains by delaying ...c5 until after 2...Nf6 3.Nf3, particularly since the thereby foregoes 2...Nc6.


1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e5 is easier for black to navigate than the comparable 1. c4 e5 2. g3, which is why it can be included. It's also more interesting than the Symmetrical English that comes up after 1. c4 c5 2. Nc3. Definitely not far-fetched.

There is logic in his choices - he plays variations of the Symmetrical when they aren't god-awful boring (2. Nc3/2. g3) due to white's move order with Nf3, and when white does try one of those choices he responds in a way that'll produce an interesting game.

And losing out on 1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 is not a big deal theoretically, since it's questionable as to if that's black's best theoretical option in the Symmetrical English anyway. 2...Nf6 retains the Hedgehog, Double Fianchetto, and is in better theoretical shape against early d4s on move three, or four, than 2...Nc6 is after 3. d4.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Best Defense against an English Opening
Reply #42 - 12/13/09 at 21:35:48
Post Tools
tracke wrote on 12/11/09 at 11:29:48:
In my (honest!) opinion the solution is to know everything and to be flexible:

1 c4 Nf6! and then: 2 d4 e6! , 2 Nc3 e5! , 2 g3 c6! , 2 Nf3 c5! , 2 (others) g6!

tracke  Smiley


Are you joking?  If not, that really is over the top.  I can see no reason why Black should have to have both 1...e5 and 1...c5 (which effectively is what you recommend) in his repertoire.  Maybe, for example, you would be good enough to explain what Black gains by delaying ...c5 until after 2...Nf6 3.Nf3, particularly since the thereby foregoes 2...Nc6.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board  ^Top