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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C00-C19: COWE French - Holes and Opinions (Read 11323 times)
TopNotch
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Re: COWE French - Holes and Opinions
Reply #18 - 11/01/09 at 23:05:24
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Keano wrote on 10/27/09 at 09:16:31:
whats this latest offering - another DVD?  Embarrassed


A video he did on chess.com.

Tops Smiley
  

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Keano
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Re: COWE French - Holes and Opinions
Reply #17 - 10/27/09 at 09:16:31
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whats this latest offering - another DVD?  Embarrassed
  
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TN
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Re: COWE French - Holes and Opinions
Reply #16 - 10/23/09 at 04:54:42
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TopNotch wrote on 10/23/09 at 01:56:13:
The plot thickens, as in his latest offering on the French Dzinzi renounces his previous recommendation against 5...Nh6 as "WRONG" ( i.e. 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. Bd2 Nh6 6. Nb5 Bxd2+ 7. Qxd2 O-O 8. f4) and suggests instead 5...Nh6 6.Bxh6 gh6 7.a3 as giving White a slight edge.

Curiously enough Dzinzi does not provide any details at all as to why he no longer favors his earlier recommendation. Could this change of heart have anything to do with the analysis contained in a certain, by now, infamous book review? Who know's? but somehow I think we won't be seeing Messrs Dzindzi and Perelshteyn on John Watson's Chess Talk show anytime soon.  Wink  

So there you have it, Watson 1 dzinzi 0 or maybe 0-1 is more precise. Nevertheless  I have a hunch that we have not heard the last word on this intersting 5.Bd2 line, as Winston Churchill famously said: This is not the end, this is not even the beginning of the end, but it might be the end of the beginning.  Grin

Toppy Smiley



TN 1 Dzindzi 0 Wink
  

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TopNotch
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Re: COWE French - Holes and Opinions
Reply #15 - 10/23/09 at 01:56:13
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The plot thickens, as in his latest offering on the French Dzinzi renounces his previous recommendation against 5...Nh6 as "WRONG" ( i.e. 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. Bd2 Nh6 6. Nb5 Bxd2+ 7. Qxd2 O-O 8. f4) and suggests instead 5...Nh6 6.Bxh6 gh6 7.a3 as giving White a slight edge.

Curiously enough Dzinzi does not provide any details at all as to why he no longer favors his earlier recommendation. Could this change of heart have anything to do with the analysis contained in a certain, by now, infamous book review? Who know's? but somehow I think we won't be seeing Messrs Dzindzi and Perelshteyn on John Watson's Chess Talk show anytime soon.  Wink  

So there you have it, Watson 1 dzinzi 0 or maybe 0-1 is more precise. Nevertheless  I have a hunch that we have not heard the last word on this intersting 5.Bd2 line, as Winston Churchill famously said: This is not the end, this is not even the beginning of the end, but it might be the end of the beginning.  Grin

Toppy Smiley

  

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Keano
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Re: COWE French - Holes and Opinions
Reply #14 - 10/01/09 at 09:12:35
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MnB - I´ve created a topic for Caro-Kann over here:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1254387247/0#0

We´ll keep this one just for French matters.

  
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Göran
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Re: COWE French - Holes and Opinions
Reply #13 - 09/30/09 at 21:01:36
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MNb wrote on 09/30/09 at 19:45:35:
...

Göran wrote on 09/30/09 at 12:46:17:
For me it was an (actually two) inspiring book(s) when I bought it as soon as it was on the market. It helped me a lot. Even if I think they could have put some more effort into it it still is the best book I bought during that period of time and during my personal chess standard/knowledge at that time.


Well, that's good for both ADP and you. This is no sarcasm. Still I think you should not expect your opponents to play as lined out by ADP. Against the Caro-Kann and the Sicilian you might be in for some disappointments.



Well, thanks for the kind warning.
Would  never take others analysis for granted without my own modest judgement. May it be ADP, Watson or Avrukh. Yes, not even from you MNb.
  

What kind of proof is that?
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MilenPetrov
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Re: COWE French - Holes and Opinions
Reply #12 - 09/30/09 at 20:31:58
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Guys,
let us concentrate in this section on French Defence and not about a concrete book and in its pros and cons in general.
I started a new thread in Discussions sub-forum asking for members opinion about starting a new forum section about chess books, where everyone can discuss the books. Otherwise please open a thread in General section and discuss the book in general there.
I think it is a good practice to stick ot the topic, is it?  Smiley
Of course not all posts are not related to French Defence, but as I see most of them  Huh
  
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MNb
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Re: COWE French - Holes and Opinions
Reply #11 - 09/30/09 at 19:45:35
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Keano, I am not your enemy, not even your opponent in this thread. I just disagree and have tried to explain why. I will keep out of the French debate just because I don't know the chapter involved. I do think the Caro-Kann Exchange leads to equality as with best play it leads to dynamic equilibrum. Hübner-Timman shows how and you will find it in several Caro-Kann books at well. So a new thread does not make much sense imo.

Göran wrote on 09/30/09 at 12:46:17:
For me it was an (actually two) inspiring book(s) when I bought it as soon as it was on the market. It helped me a lot. Even if I think they could have put some more effort into it it still is the best book I bought during that period of time and during my personal chess standard/knowledge at that time.


Well, that's good for both ADP and you. This is no sarcasm. Still I think you should not expect your opponents to play as lined out by ADP. Against the Caro-Kann and the Sicilian you might be in for some disappointments.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: COWE French - Holes and Opinions
Reply #10 - 09/30/09 at 15:30:16
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It's clear (to some) that Watson and his minions feel he is the Pope of Chilitown, and why I do not know as he is merely an IM and his own works in the French are subject to just as many, if not more, inaccuracies, blindspots, and hope-chess moves as any of the other works he excoriates.

That being said, Dzindzi is a wannabee-huckster, albeit a (mostly) lovable one.


  
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Keano
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Re: COWE French - Holes and Opinions
Reply #9 - 09/30/09 at 14:24:18
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I have just had time for a quick look at the first game in TN´s pgn file while grabbing a coffee in my lunch hour:

I´ll paste the game below, heres my initial thoughts: Watson makes a big thing of ...Nh6 not being given more treatment, he´s right of course but wrong to lambast the book. As for this game:

9.c3 as played by Perelshteyn is better in this move-order with ...Nh6

13... Nh4 you say is given equal by Watson - an example of Watsons rose-tinted glasses. 14.0-0-0! and if 14...Nxf3 15.gxf3 the absence of many pieces around Blacks king will make the g-file extremely dangerous once occupied by White rooks. Maybe Black should try 15...Qh4 intending ...Qf4 to swap Queens, but even in endgames White has a dangerous initiative, he has play on both sides of the boards (Q-side via Kb1, Rc1 etc) and Black has the usual problem with the bishop - check this with the engines and they also love White.

15.g4? is the mistake in my view as you rightly point out.

15. Bxf5! is strong, lets look at the improvement you give:
15... Qxb5 16. Bc2 Nb4

Here White has 17.Ng5! with a massive advantage (close to winning). He has no objection to his bishop being exchanged for the Knight since it leaves him the classic good Knight v Bishop. Also now ...g6 looks practically forced when off-hand something like Rf6! followed by invasion on the dark squares. Its hopeless for Black.

So lets see if we can now reverse Watsons words - Whites Bd2,f4 strategy is already beginning to look quite good ..... Wink


Quote:
[White "Perelshteyn, Eugene"]
[Black "Shaked, Tal"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C17"]
[WhiteElo "2360"]
[BlackElo "2445"]
[Annotator "TN, Watson"]
[PlyCount "50"]
[EventDate "1997.??.??"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "USA"]
[EventCategory "3"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2000.11.22"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. Bd2 Nh6 6. Nb5 Bxd2+ 7. Qxd2 O-O 8. f4
Nc6 (8... a6 {- next game}) 9. c3 {This will transpose to 9.Nf3, see the game.}
(9. Nf3 {Watson: 'and at this point the authors say merely 'Compare 5...Ne7'
and stop! What a strange way to avoid the issue: it takes almost no thought to
see how different the two lines are. A knight on h6 defends against the
tactics involving Bxh7+ as well as the move Nf7 that DPA feature in the lines
after 5...Ne7. Furthermore, Black's knight can help attack the centre from f7
after he plays ...f6, and ...Nh6 also leaves Black's queen in contact with the
kingside. Finally, the knight can (and does) go to g4 with great effect when a
pawn on d4 anchors e3 for occupation via ...Ne3 and/or when Black's queen on
b6 supports that move. A knight on e7, on the other hand, has its own
advantages in that it can go to c6 (often with tempo), or to g6, or c8 (from
which square it can challenge a knight on d6). Did the authors simply not
understand this?'} f6 $5 (9... a6 $1 {is also good for Black - see Watson's
analysis. This had not been played at the time of the publication of the book,
but should still have been covered as the position after 10.Nd6 occurs by
transposition in another game.}) 10. c3) 9... f6 10. Nf3 fxe5 11. fxe5 cxd4 12.
cxd4 Nf5 13. Bd3 Qb6 $5 (13... Nh4 {is equal according to Watson - I agree
with this assessment.}) 14. O-O Bd7 15. g4 $2 (15. Bxf5 Rxf5 ({I suggest the
improvement} 15... Qxb5 $5 16. Bc2 Nb4 17. Bd1 Rac8 $132 {with good play for
Black.}) 16. Nd6 Rff8 17. Kh1 h6 18. a4 a5 {and White has only a tiny edge at
best.}) 15... Nfxd4 16. Nfxd4 Nxe5 17. Kg2 Nxd3 18. Qxd3 e5 $19 19. Qb3 exd4
20. Qxd5+ Be6 21. Qe5 Bc4 22. Rxf8+ Rxf8 23. a4 d3 24. Nd6 Qf2+ 25. Kh1 Qf3+ {
Watson: 'Okay, that's embarrassing, and surely given this personal experience
Perelshteyn shouldn't have hidden behind the 'see 5...Ne7' comment. Just as
importantly, if one is to advocate this line for White and even superficially
analyse it, one would have the obligation to justify playing into the most
difficult positions which directly arise from it, especially right away on the
ninth move!'} 0-1
  
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Keano
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Re: COWE French - Holes and Opinions
Reply #8 - 09/30/09 at 14:01:54
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Thank you Hacker - at least one other person! Dont worry, I´ve had a glance at Watsons and TN's analysis and a lot of it doesnt stand up at all - needless to say I´ll publish the refutations and maybe we can get some new convertors..

MnB - sorry didnt mean to be abrupt but you have agreed with TN which makes you the enemy in this - I seriously believe this book has been unjustly maligned and that TN's post is full of sweeping comments which are just not correct. I cant help you much with the Caro-Kann issue because I simply rejected that chapter, although basically if you think of it logically White is playing a QGD exchange reversed where he has everything in order, so the minority attack on the other wing should be manageable - maybe we need another thread - "Holes in Caro-Kann?!..."

Its strange to find me arguing against Watson because I am a fan of his books - his first Play the French Vol 1 is an all-time classic which inspired me to play the French. Its also a bit of a paradox that, even then I could still see the French book was wildly over-optimistic in the evaluations and had numerous errors, but guess what, it didnt matter compared to the fact that it was an inspirational work that grasped the essence of the French. Now I´m afraid I have to blast my heroe for trying to destroy another inspirational book (although the French book is better!).

TN- although the enemy and although I will have to challenge your analysis at least you have provoked me into doing a bit of work for a change. Seriously, from seeing your posts in this forum in general, I think you are prone to a bit of what we shall call "sweeping comment" syndrome. i.e declaring whole openings equal or whole lines second-rate etc. If only chess were as simple as that.
  
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Göran
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Re: COWE French - Holes and Opinions
Reply #7 - 09/30/09 at 12:46:17
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Keano wrote on 09/30/09 at 08:58:22:
...
By the way where is the Flear review?

I´ve not posted much in this forum for a while but as usual it seems I am the one disagreeing with everyone! Ah well...


I do agree with your overall statement. For me it was an (actually two) inspiring book(s) when I bought it as soon as it was on the market. It helped me a lot. Even if I think they could have put some more effort into it it still is the best book I bought during that period of time and during my personal chess standard/knowledge at that time.

When I read Watsons review I was extremely surprised. I agrred with a lot of what Watson said but at that time I didn't bother because I already had the books and they had servered me very well.

When agreeing to a lot of what Watson wrote about the book I thought and still think that the review was very strange.

Keano, at least one more person that think it was an inspiring book in spite of its faults. Which chess book hasn't any faults. Which repertoire book doesn't promise a friend for a life time? I think it is as much a question of whom the book adresses than what kind of faults it has got.
  

What kind of proof is that?
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MNb
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Re: COWE French - Holes and Opinions
Reply #6 - 09/30/09 at 12:13:33
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Keano, I have played such second-rate openings my entire life. Trust me, I am not stupid enough to become arrogant about them. But I have always tried to figure out my virtual opponent's best options as well, something COWE doesn't. As a result I had to conclude that some of my second-rate openings are third-rate.
Hübner and Dzjindzji himself, who I mentioned in my previous post, are not masters as you very well know. So your first line is quite off-the-point.
Let me make one point very clear: I would love it if somebody proves that the Caro-Kann Exchange (with 4.Bd3) is a dangerous weapon. I even strongly consider recommending it to my son, based on my own experiences in the past.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Keano
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Re: COWE French - Holes and Opinions
Reply #5 - 09/30/09 at 12:00:08
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TN and MNb - there are plenty of masters playing these "second-rate" openings so I wouldnt get too arrogant or dismissive. You´ve obviously made up your minds so I cant change it! ...But I will get around to a hatchet job of Watsons hatchet job when I have some time - for one thing Watson has not mentioned alternative backup options provided to White in the French line 15.c4!? instead of 15.c3 - I remember that the engine liked this, not mentioned by Watson - "dishonest" - no! Somewhere else on the forum I remember Bibby made a very eloquent summation of Dzdzi's stuff in general, I cant seem to locate the thread now.
  
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MNb
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Re: COWE French - Holes and Opinions
Reply #4 - 09/30/09 at 11:49:12
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Thanks, TN, I have little to add. What you write perfectly applies to the chapters on the Caro-Kann and the GPA, the only ones I know. I have played both variations myself. The content was published on the web - the GPA-stuff on Michael Goeller's site iirc - so I could compare with my notes. My conclusion is that I can't recommend COWE to any player of any strength. The book lacks intellectual integrity.

It amazes me that Keano, usually a very sensible and reasonable guy, defends this book. He neglects the two main complaints: the three authors systematically evaluate equal positions as slightly better for White way too easy. The three authors haven't done any reasonable effort to present optimal play for Black.
A typical example is the line which was tested in Hübner-Timman, Bugojno 1982. Even Schiller in White to play 1.e4 and win, who recommends the same variation, admits that Black has equality. COWE gives a game Dzjindzji-Karpov, suggests an "improvement" that would have lead to a winning attack - but only if Black cooperates like the authors expect him to do. As a consequence they rate the position around move 15 as slightly better for White. In reality, if anyone has an edge, it's Black (minority attack).

Everybody seems to agree that COBE is better. I haven't seen even a single page of that one, so have no reason to doubt it.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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