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Normal Topic C03-C04,C10: 3...Nc6 after terrasch or Nc3?? (Read 4653 times)
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Re: Is 3...Nc6 possible after the terrasch or Nc3??
Reply #8 - 05/04/10 at 11:38:42
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In addition, there is also 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Bb4 7.Bd2 Nxc3!? 8.bxc3 Be7 9.0-0 Na5, which was discussed on chesspublishing in february 2008. Depending on White's reaction, Black can go c5/c4 or b6/Bb7/Qd7/0-0-0.
  
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Re: Is 3...Nc6 possible after the terrasch or Nc3??
Reply #7 - 05/02/10 at 14:43:47
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TN wrote on 10/10/09 at 22:09:39:
To answer the question, yes it is possible, but White should keep a slight advantage. For the Guimard, see Tzermiadianos's repertoire book, and for the Hecht-Reefshlager, 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Bb4 7.Bd2 Nd2 8.Qd2 f6 9.a3 is known to give White a slight edge.


If the above mentioned line is Black´s biggest problem, the Hecht-Reefschläger is really looking good, since recently deviating with 8....Bd7 was analysed in updates by Wei Ming and Macdonald. After 8.a3 Black has three lines (8....Bxc3; Be7; and maybe even Ba5) at his choice which all were reviewed well by the chesspub authors and with the exception of Ba5 score well for Black. It would be surprising if not at least one of them will proof reliable in the long run.

The practical value of the Hecht-Reefschläger as a part of a french repertoire in the ELO - range 1400 - 2000, where most my opponents can be found, cannot be underlined enough. After years of playing the French, the opening as a whole in my opinion is the most effective weapon on this level of play, if you want to fight for an opening advantage as Black. White e4-players facing it are quite annoyed to be kept out there favourite open games or Sicilians. Very few like to play the French as White, especially the more theoretical lines, so opening play often is very easy for Black:

10 % of the games feature some kind of 2.d3/b3/Nf3 variations
30 % are toothless exchange systems
30 % are advance systems, which are OK for White, if he knows what to do. Most of the time he does not know as soon as move 6, and so I won more than a couple of games because White simply forgot to defend d4 sufficiently or tried to eliminate some pressure with Bb5, allowing Black to get rid of his bad bishop and play a much better and easy to handle endgame
15 % are Tarrasch -Systems, where Black has a wide choice of more or less theoretical systems and therefore an easy preparation.
At last, only 15% are 3.Sc3 - systems. Why use mainlines here since White almost never goes for winawer mainlines (4.Ne2 or 5. Qg4 are quite popular) and after 3.Sc3 Sf6 Black has to prepare a lot of different variations?

So, from a practical point of view, on this level 3.Sc3 Sc6 is a dangerous surprise weapon, minimizings preparation while maximizing the chance of White being completely unprepared and following general formulas not working in the specific varation.
  
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Re: Is 3...Nc6 possible after the terrasch or Nc3??
Reply #6 - 12/13/09 at 06:23:49
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This is all very inspiring stuff. Many people get hung up on openings at some point. I for instance had planned to learn all the theory of the Najdorf, Grunfeld and a complete mainline repertoire for 1 e4. After several months I realized how pointless this was. As I am not yet 2200, getting close though, it is ridiculous to think I need to commit all the lines of these openings to memory.

I play the french now, and maybe I dont have an equal position at move 15 but by move 20 or 25 I am starting out play my opponents. Systems like these are great for original play. Surprise value is very important in the under 2200 tournament play.
  
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Re: Is 3...Nc6 possible after the terrasch or Nc3??
Reply #5 - 10/22/09 at 19:40:04
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I have to continue the endorsement. When playing a well-known Welsh FM a few years back, who had thumped me several times previously, I decided to go for the Hecht-Reefschlager.

The result? I lost of course... but I blundered a piece in horrendous time trouble. My position was most likely superior from move 15 to move 30, and even with only a few hours' work I felt my understanding was enough to give me the chances I needed.

A nice point is that stereotyped white play, especially along the lines of the advance, can quickly land white in some trouble. Probably white does get a small edge in the main lines... but, according to many sources (so I recall), white gets a small edge in many lines of the French anyway. The understanding of the typical positions is far more critical, and a good working knowledge of the ...Nc6 systems can definitely reap rewards.

Another similar system along these lines is seen after 3...Qxd5 in the exchange. White probably gets a small edge with best play... but black's counterplay is often quite pleasant down the g-file, and white will not see this system often... so definitely worth an occassional punt as part of an offbeat French repertoire.
  

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Re: Is 3...Nc6 possible after the terrasch or Nc3??
Reply #4 - 10/19/09 at 16:55:28
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Although I don't know much about the theory of the 3...Nc6 lines, I recall John Watson citing the ...Nc6 lines quite approvingly in some of his book reviews, so at the very least they are likely to be playable.
  
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Re: Is 3...Nc6 possible after the terrasch or Nc3??
Reply #3 - 10/18/09 at 12:01:10
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While I agree to both TN and dom that white has slight edge in these lines (like many other mainlines) and this may not always reveal the soul of French, I have been playing this for last 2 years with great success.

When I moved from Sicilian to French, it was not easy to learn everything in a short time. So I learned exchange, advance and other lines and started playing Nc6 lines against 3.Nc3/Nd2. What I found was there are many players who play the white side based a lot on the books - in a stereo type way. These things doesn't apply when black plays Nc6. In many lines its actually black who is playing in kingside.

So the key becomes can they just "play" chess as needed by  the position? I found in many cases, typically players habituated of throwing 20 moves from books, can not handle this new positions. So at the end of the day, the better player wins. I won more but lost as well and I'll give the credit for those losses to my opponents who were higher rated & simply player better than me - it was not the position that cost me my game.

Final word, my friend & coach reminds me often - at a level lower than 2200, it the middlegame (& endgame) play that makes the difference. Unless we are playing a totally unsound opening, we are okay. Nc6 lines are more than okay for black from that perspective. And reducing the time in memorizing opening moves gave me the option to spend more time & learn better middlegame & endgames.
  
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Re: Is 3...Nc6 possible after the terrasch or Nc3??
Reply #2 - 10/12/09 at 06:17:42
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Despite it interesting value, I will not advice the move too much for chess French beginners...always better to start with classical plan  (dxe4,Nf6,Bb4)...but true, for the French Echange, when piece play is very important in an "open" pawn center, Nc6 is very good system to learn about asymetric pawn structures.
  

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TN
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Re: Is 3...Nc6 possible after the terrasch or Nc3??
Reply #1 - 10/10/09 at 22:09:39
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To answer the question, yes it is possible, but White should keep a slight advantage. For the Guimard, see Tzermiadianos's repertoire book, and for the Hecht-Reefshlager, 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Bb4 7.Bd2 Nd2 8.Qd2 f6 9.a3 is known to give White a slight edge.

For the record, an early ...Nc6 is also quite effective against some Exchange lines, e.g. 4.Nf3 Nc6 and 4.Bd3 Nc6.
  

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C03-C04,C10: 3...Nc6 after terrasch or Nc3??
10/10/09 at 21:30:45
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i am quite keen on these systems for black with ...Nc6 although it blocks the c-pawn it has been suggested for blck in the book "dangerous weapons: the french" . I really suggest to all of you to start playing that. Wink
« Last Edit: 07/23/11 at 15:47:39 by dom »  
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