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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Catalan Vs. Slav (Read 9093 times)
Markovich
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Re: Catalan Vs. Slav
Reply #14 - 02/07/11 at 13:56:17
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Ametanoitos wrote on 02/07/11 at 09:13:36:
First of all, i think that Black should play ...Bf5 and not ...dxc4. Aftet this we are in a London set-up with colours reversed. White has a great number of ideas like Nd2, Re1, Nh4 etc all dericted to play an eventuall e4 break. When this happens the position transposes to a Caro-Kann structure! And a good one for Black who will play (after taking on e4) h6-Qb6-Re8-Rd8 with a comfortable position because the Bg2 is not a great piece as the Bf5 is (that's why in the CK White exchanges those Bishops). So, that's why i don't believe that "pure" Catalan move order is effective against the Slav. Play first Qc2 and play g3 only when Black closes his Bishop on c8.


Exactly.  The Catalan setup can be played, but it's distinctly suboptimal, so long as ...e6 hasn't been played.  It surprises me that people keep coming back here with these lame "Catalan versus Slav" ideas.



  

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Ametanoitos
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Re: Catalan Vs. Slav
Reply #13 - 02/07/11 at 09:13:36
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First of all, i think that Black should play ...Bf5 and not ...dxc4. Aftet this we are in a London set-up with colours reversed. White has a great number of ideas like Nd2, Re1, Nh4 etc all dericted to play an eventuall e4 break. When this happens the position transposes to a Caro-Kann structure! And a good one for Black who will play (after taking on e4) h6-Qb6-Re8-Rd8 with a comfortable position because the Bg2 is not a great piece as the Bf5 is (that's why in the CK White exchanges those Bishops). So, that's why i don't believe that "pure" Catalan move order is effective against the Slav. Play first Qc2 and play g3 only when Black closes his Bishop on c8.
  
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Re: Catalan Vs. Slav
Reply #12 - 02/02/11 at 16:01:28
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@Tim: 2 Questions:

1) What do you play after 4...dxc4? If you play 5.Bg2, then Black can play ...c6 transposing to the line you want to avoid.

2) Are you comfortable with the position arising after (4...c6 5.Qc2) dxc4 6.Qxc4 b5? Afaik it is considered to be satisfactory for Black.

So, if you play sth. like 5.Qa4+ against 4...dxc4 and you like the position mentioned in the second question it makes perfect sense to avoid the pawn sacrifice. Otherwise it probably doesn't.
  

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Re: Catalan Vs. Slav
Reply #11 - 02/02/11 at 13:41:40
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If you want a safe catalan-style variation against the slav you should look at 4. Qc2 or 4. Qb3. That way you don't lose a pawn while developing with g3 / Bg2.
  
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Re: Catalan Vs. Slav
Reply #10 - 02/02/11 at 12:38:47
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TicklyTim wrote on 02/02/11 at 11:15:56:
Ok, not the Slav - but semi-slav (closed):

I have just played the following:
1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 e6 4.g3 c6
then without pausing flicked out 5.Bg2 only to think "oops, I've allowed 5..dxc4/6..b5".
I know this is a line for White but it wasn't something I had loked at previously.
My question is:
If 5.Qc2 transposes to lines I play anyway, is it worth learning 5.Bg2 on top of this.
That is, is 5..dxc4/6..b5 better for white than the standard lines, so is worth allowing?
(I'm usually for having less work - as in the c3 sicilian vs morra decision).


My advice is to play the move you are most comfortable with. The ...dc4/...b5 lines are equivalent to most of Black's other options, so it depends on whether you are willing to sacrifice material more or less permanently for positional compensation.

If you don't like the Catalan variations where Black maintains his extra pawn for a long period of time then there's always 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.g3, followed by Bg2, 0-0, Nbd2, and c4, with possibly b3/Bb2 included first. But you can't expect a theoretical edge with this.
  

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TicklyTim
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Re: Catalan Vs. Slav
Reply #9 - 02/02/11 at 11:15:56
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Ok, not the Slav - but semi-slav (closed):

I have just played the following:
1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 e6 4.g3 c6
then without pausing flicked out 5.Bg2 only to think "oops, I've allowed 5..dxc4/6..b5".
I know this is a line for White but it wasn't something I had loked at previously.
My question is:
If 5.Qc2 transposes to lines I play anyway, is it worth learning 5.Bg2 on top of this.
That is, is 5..dxc4/6..b5 better for white than the standard lines, so is worth allowing?
(I'm usually for having less work - as in the c3 sicilian vs morra decision).
  
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Re: Catalan Vs. Slav
Reply #8 - 10/24/09 at 11:23:11
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Thanks MNB.

So the line 5.., b5 is a better option for Black. than Bf5. I chose this line because I had read an article of Boris Avrukh about the "Slav Catalan" but Your post can be an intersting and different  starting point.
  

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MNb
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Re: Catalan Vs. Slav
Reply #7 - 10/23/09 at 22:15:14
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Then other options by Black should be your topic. I also have a database. 5...Bf5 is played about 100 times, White winning almost half of the games. 5...b5 is played slightly more often and Black's results are much much better. That's why I asked: what is the relevance of 5...Bf5 ?
  

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Templare2
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Re: Catalan Vs. Slav
Reply #6 - 10/23/09 at 19:44:16
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MNb wrote on 10/23/09 at 04:09:23:
First point: I suppose you mean "this line is considered not so good for White". Second point: it's easy to claim an edge by dismissing better options for Black as "not topical". So the relevance of this line is not clear to me.
That's what I think.



First point: yes, i did a little of confusion. You are right, MNB

Second point: i showed a sample line that i found in my database.  My intention is not to demonstrate an advantage for  white but to understand why this line is considered not good for trhe first player.

Thanks
  

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Re: Catalan Vs. Slav
Reply #5 - 10/23/09 at 17:38:42
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Yes. Reti.
  

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Re: Catalan Vs. Slav
Reply #4 - 10/23/09 at 17:19:53
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Not sure, but isnt it a Reti then?
  

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Re: Catalan Vs. Slav
Reply #3 - 10/23/09 at 11:52:34
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If you g3 before black has played e6, there is a risk that black's light squared bishop will come outside its own pawn chains.
It does not mean that is bad for white but you will get a totally different type of position. Black still has some problems to solve out of the opening but white's light squared bishop is not stronger than black's one anymore.
It can also become problematic for white to play some thematical moves in the center (e4 and forcing a way through black's center). Or else: some "classical" opportunities will disappear for white.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Catalan Vs. Slav
Reply #2 - 10/23/09 at 10:25:48
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4.g3 is a good choice, especially if you also play the Catalan vs QGD. It has much less theory than main line slav and semi-slav and is not innocuous.

I have played the slav and semi-slav as black on and off for a few years and find the g3 systems quite difficult to meet.
  

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Re: Catalan Vs. Slav
Reply #1 - 10/23/09 at 04:09:23
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First point: I suppose you mean "this line is considered not so good for White". Second point: it's easy to claim an edge by dismissing better options for Black as "not topical". So the relevance of this line is not clear to me.
That's what I think.
  

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Templare2
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Catalan Vs. Slav
10/22/09 at 17:28:24
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After 1. d4  d5  2. c4 c6  3. Nf3 Nf6 White can play 4. g3

This could easily traspose into the Catalan but this line is considered not so good for Black due to 4...dc4 and there is a difference, that Black's pawn is still on e7 instead on e6.

After 4.. dxc4  ( Black can play 4.... Bg4 or Bf5) 5. Bg2 Bf5 ( 5.., g6  5.., b5 5.., Qa5+ and 5.., Nbd7 are possible but not topical) 6. Nbd2 Nbd7  7. Nxc4 White is a little better because Black has two weakness: d6 and b7.

What do you think?
  

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